Amid the joy, what a story to wake up to.

[angelman]

Like the Labour Party?

 

Maybe these 2 were Labour party members!

[simo]

Fake news ! https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/17490997.saints-fan-arrested-at-st-marys-amid-allegations-of-antisemitic-chanting/

[angelman]

So 2 morons confirmed (ish) who were supposedly reported by at least one fellow Saints supporter to the stewards who seem to maybe have done nothing about it as there is no report of it, and the article doesn't say whether the perps were ejected. If that is the case, not sure how the old bill arrested someone so quickly unless the person making the complaint to the stewards contacted the club directly.

 

Also think it would have been good if the Sunday Times got all sides of the story, as not sure that they included this bit about being reported to stewards by fellow supporters.

[eurosaint]

Disgusting behaviour, should be a life ban for anyone chanting that sort of thing. Same goes for Spurs scum chanting Yids.

 

It doesn’t matter where you are there are always a couple of idiots, In 30 odd years of supporting Saints I can only remember hearing a few racist chants. I’ve heard way more at work or at the pub and it’s been more often than not from old, middle classed conservatives.

 

As an old, middle class conservative, I find this deeply offensive:)

[aintforever]

My partner is Jewish and has a season ticket in the Northam. She does not consider the term Yid racist nor did we hear anything offensive yesterday. The Liverpool fans anti Israel pro Palestine on the the bridge to the stadium a year or two ago was much more offensive

but no one said or did anything about that.

 

I tend to agree with David Baddiel's take on it.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/17/david-cameron-yid-really-is-race-hate-word

 

Wether your Mrs was offended or no doesn't change the fact that for some, Yid is clearly a race hate word. Would you think it's OK for Luton fans to call themselves the Paki Army, or Brighton to call themselves The Faggot Army?

[saint-crinny]

No real reason to assume that this is made up/exaggerated because it was a journalist/may or may not have been reported to stewards/they may or may not have responded properly.

 

No real reason to think it was anything else other than a small minority of supporters.

 

Every reason to find it disgusting, unacceptable and an issue even if it is just a few supporters, and there isnt an excuse for it

[Guided Missile]

Yid is clearly a race hate word. Would you think it's OK for Luton fans to call themselves the Paki Army, or Brighton to call themselves The Faggot Army?

The worst race hate word is, IMHO, n!gg€r and yet, despite that, it appears that most African Americans are able to use the term to address each other, with no problem at all.

[sadoldgit]

The worst race hate word is, IMHO, n!gg€r and yet, despite that, it appears that most African Americans are able to use the term to address each other, with no problem at all.

 

That’s the point though John. They can do it because they are using it in a different way. I have some gay friends who are quite happy to call each other by terms that are clearly homophobic if used by straight people against them. Their argument is that they are being ironic and are turning negatives into positives. By calling themselves the Yid Army Spurs fans are taking ownership of the name on their own terms. The N word is used as a sign of brotherhood when used between each other whereas

a white person using that term can only do so from a racist perspective because they don’t have the same background.

[angelman]

That’s the point though John. They can do it because they are using it in a different way. I have some gay friends who are quite happy to call each other by terms that are clearly homophobic if used by straight people against them. Their argument is that they are being ironic and are turning negatives into positives. By calling themselves the Yid Army Spurs fans are taking ownership of the name on their own terms. The N word is used as a sign of brotherhood when used between each other whereas a white person using that term can only do so from a racist perspective because they don’t have the same background.

 

You're very wrong on this.

 

It's not "theirs" to take control of, not least that most presumably aren't of Jewish descent. There are c. 260k Jews in this country, meaning the numbers don't stack up. And why are you taking what football fans want/sing about, rather than The Community Security Trust, the Jewish Leadership Council, the World Jewish Congress and the Board of Deputies of British Jews ? They have pressed Spurs to clamp down and stop this.

 

As I say, it really isn't "theirs". For what its worth, the Yid Army would be the IDF, not a group of Tottenham supporters.

[rallyboy]

Call me old fashioned but I'm going to hold fire and see if any actual facts surface regarding the main charge.

 

At the moment we know that one bloke was abusive on his walk home, but his behaviour wasn't deemed serious enough to warrant anything more than a telling off, for being a ****.

[simo]

So 2 morons confirmed (ish) who were supposedly reported by at least one fellow Saints supporter to the stewards who seem to maybe have done nothing about it as there is no report of it, and the article doesn't say whether the perps were ejected. If that is the case, not sure how the old bill arrested someone so quickly unless the person making the complaint to the stewards contacted the club directly.

 

Also think it would have been good if the Sunday Times got all sides of the story, as not sure that they included this bit about being reported to stewards by fellow supporters.

 

I didnt see anywhere in the article where it said the journalist that reported it was a saints fan? The bit I do find hard to believe was that he was asked if he wanted to move rather than them take action .

[Lighthouse]

That’s the point though John. They can do it because they are using it in a different way. I have some gay friends who are quite happy to call each other by terms that are clearly homophobic if used by straight people against them. Their argument is that they are being ironic and are turning negatives into positives. By calling themselves the Yid Army Spurs fans are taking ownership of the name on their own terms. The N word is used as a sign of brotherhood when used between each other whereas

a white person using that term can only do so from a racist perspective because they don’t have the same background.

 

A term is either offensive or it isn't. You can't claim ownership of a word and say it's alright to use it because you are black/gay/Jewish or whatever.

 

Personally, I object to some African-Americans referring to each other by a word which is deemed offensive if used by a white person. All it does is reinforce a sort of us vs. them mentality - A kind of 'that's what they call us, so we use it to show solidarity,' attitude. I'd say the same about Spurs fans referring to themselves as 'Yid Army', whether they find it offensive personally or not.

[whelk]

why was that offensive? Because people were calling out Israel for settling on land that is not theirs?

 

You have form pal. Nothing wrong with hissing eh

[Lighthouse]

It's really hard to have a conversation with someone who is instantly ruling out context.

 

Context yes but there has to be a fair context for everyone. For example I couldn't say, "this is my mate, he's a n*gger," no matter how much I liked him or friendly the tone was.

 

With Spurs, some of their fans refer to themself as the 'Yid Army' but if I were to say, "we're playing the Yids this weekend," some people would find that offensive. That's not really about context, it's purely down to who said it.

[JRM]

That story just doesn’t sound right, the origins of it are vague, it’s not mentioned at all in the newspaper this guy was supposed to work for, saints aren’t aware of the incident, odd one but not sure I believe it.

[kyle04]

Context yes but there has to be a fair context for everyone. For example I couldn't say, "this is my mate, he's a n*gger," no matter how much I liked him or friendly the tone was.

 

 

... like you would need to point that out at the introduction. "F*** me, so he is ! Er, what I meant was...."

[Lighthouse]

... like you would need to point that out at the introduction. "F*** me, so he is ! Er, what I meant was...."

 

Well obviously not but you get the idea. I can't imagine a shop assistant saying, "go to the menswear dept and speak to the n*gger in the red shirt."

[kyle04]

Well obviously not but you get the idea. I can't imagine a shop assistant saying, "go to the menswear dept and speak to the n*gger in the red shirt."

 

.... as opposed to the one in the green shirt...

[Berkhamsted Saint]

It was offensive because of the anti semitic remarks made to us as we walked past not because of the subject matter of the actual protest.

[Berkhamsted Saint]

why was that offensive? Because people were calling out Israel for settling on land that is not theirs?

 

It was offensive because of the anti semitic comments made to us as we went past not because of the subject matter of the protest.

[alehouseboys]

Here's a (longish) interesting article on the matter. Estimates only round 5% of Tottenham's support is Jewish.

[alehouseboys]

Here's a (longish) interesting article on the matter. Estimates only round 5% of Tottenham's support is Jewish.

 

*cough* https://www.thejc.com/lifestyle/features/how-tottenham-became-the-jewish-football-team-1.53784

[wadesmith]

*cough* https://www.thejc.com/lifestyle/features/how-tottenham-became-the-jewish-football-team-1.53784

 

Yes, that's a decent article, which explains the point I made on the first page, that many Tottenham fans have adopted the term 'Yids' to try and gain control of what is considered a slur and render it impotent. A minority of Saints 'fans' have attempted to do something similar by adopting the label 'scummer' and forming the slightly comical 'Scum Army'. Much to everyones embarresment.

[Noodles34]

You have form pal. Nothing wrong with hissing eh

 

Thats just ******** and you know it. My point, that you seem to have had such a problem with was the fact that people go running off to the old bill at any opportunity. Anything from doing plane signs to singing 'does your boyfriend know you're here..' It's pathetic.

[Noodles34]

It was offensive because of the anti semitic comments made to us as we went past not because of the subject matter of the protest.

 

and what were these comments?

[sadoldgit]

You're very wrong on this.

 

It's not "theirs" to take control of, not least that most presumably aren't of Jewish descent. There are c. 260k Jews in this country, meaning the numbers don't stack up. And why are you taking what football fans want/sing about, rather than The Community Security Trust, the Jewish Leadership Council, the World Jewish Congress and the Board of Deputies of British Jews ? They have pressed Spurs to clamp down and stop this.

 

As I say, it really isn't "theirs". For what its worth, the Yid Army would be the IDF, not a group of Tottenham supporters.

 

It’s all about context though. I doesn’t really matter that only about 5% of them are actually Jewish. They are identifying with the term, not using it as a racial insult. In the same way that two people of colour (or whatever the pc term is now) call each other by the n word. They are not using it as a hateful slur. If you wanted to prosecute the Spurs supporters for a “hate crime” when chanting “Yid army” you would have to prove that they are using it as an insult whereas they clearly aren’t. Any references to gassing or Hitler are clearly meant as an insult and are dealt with differently because of the different context. To say that Spurs supporters bring this upon themselves isn’t the point. Calling themselves by a name that identifies with a certain religion does not then give others the right to abuse them using racial hate terms. We can talk about plane crashes all day long without offending anyone but as we know, there is a certain plane crash which is used as an insult towards Manchester United and in that context falls into the hate crime category. I don’t know if there is any truth in the rumour on the terraces that Victoria Beckham enjoys a spot of an al, but the context in which it is used is not a celebration of a celebrity’s sexual preference, it is meant as an insult and a wind up. There are a number of interesting articles about the Tottenham dilemma about their fans singing “Yid Army” and they do struggle because the fans are obviously not insulting themselves. This is not about what words mean, it is about how they are used.

[simo]

The club have confirmed they have checked with all stewards and no such incident was reported ! I bet the national newspapers that reported the story won't report saints response

[John Boy Saint]

The club have confirmed they have checked with all stewards and no such incident was reported ! I bet the national newspapers that reported the story won't report saints response

Probably find it 5 pages into the Holiday Cruise section of adverts just down in the bottom left hand corner.

[aintforever]

It’s all about context though. I doesn’t really matter that only about 5% of them are actually Jewish. They are identifying with the term, not using it as a racial insult. In the same way that two people of colour (or whatever the pc term is now) call each other by the n word. They are not using it as a hateful slur. If you wanted to prosecute the Spurs supporters for a “hate crime” when chanting “Yid army” you would have to prove that they are using it as an insult whereas they clearly aren’t. Any references to gassing or Hitler are clearly meant as an insult and are dealt with differently because of the different context. To say that Spurs supporters bring this upon themselves isn’t the point. Calling themselves by a name that identifies with a certain religion does not then give others the right to abuse them using racial hate terms. We can talk about plane crashes all day long without offending anyone but as we know, there is a certain plane crash which is used as an insult towards Manchester United and in that context falls into the hate crime category. I don’t know if there is any truth in the rumour on the terraces that Victoria Beckham enjoys a spot of an al, but the context in which it is used is not a celebration of a celebrity’s sexual preference, it is meant as an insult and a wind up. There are a number of interesting articles about the Tottenham dilemma about their fans singing “Yid Army” and they do struggle because the fans are obviously not insulting themselves. This is not about what words mean, it is about how they are used.

 

So if Bradford fans start calling themselves 'Paki Army' or Brighton 'Faggot Army' - you would think that's ok?

[Turkish]

So bullshat then. It never rang true. Why would a Sunday times reporter want to remain anonymous? Why did no one get arrested despite it being reported? Why did no one else see or hear it?

 

It reminded me of an article the sun did a few years back to expose racism at millwall. They sent a black reporter to the Den who ran an article claiming no one would sit near him, he heard millwall fans abuse Barry Hayles as he lay on the floor injured shouting “you f*cking animal” and of course he heard monkey noises but he also claims he heard a large group of fans chanting “seig heil” throughout the game.

 

It turned out they were playing brighton and it was Brighton fans singing “seagulls” the abuse was actually towards a Brighton player who had injured Barry Hayles in bad tackle and surprise surprise no reports anywhere else of monkey noises. Even his claims no one sat near him were lies as there were photos released later of him sat next to other fans. They were forced to run an article admitting they’d got it wrong a fee eeeks later when it became obvious it was all bullsh1t

[whelk]

So bullshat then. It never rang true. Why would a Sunday times reporter want to remain anonymous? Why did no one get arrested despite it being reported? Why did no one else see or hear it?

 

It reminded me of an article the sun did a few years back to expose racism at millwall. They sent a black reporter to the Den who ran an article claiming no one would sit near him, he heard millwall fans abuse Barry Hayles as he lay on the floor injured shouting “you f*cking animal” and of course he heard monkey noises but he also claims he heard a large group of fans chanting “seig heil” throughout the game.

 

It turned out they were playing brighton and it was Brighton fans singing “seagulls” the abuse was actually towards a Brighton player who had injured Barry Hayles in bad tackle and surprise surprise no reports anywhere else of monkey noises. Even his claims no one sat near him were lies as there were photos released later of him sat next to other fans. They were forced to run an article admitting they’d got it wrong a fee eeeks later when it became obvious it was all bullsh1t

 

Yeah ridiculous if not substantiated. Like that fella in US who faked racist homophobic beating. Does so much damage to genuine sh1t that goes down as people fall back on yeah but not true line

[Saint-Fred]

Truly one of the stupidest posts I've ever seen on here.

 

First, I doubt very much you have any grounds for claiming the 95% figure. You've just made it up to suit your argument.

 

But more to the point, how does 'Yid army' chants to blame for:

 

"Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz, Hitler's going to gas them again."

 

and

 

"Same old Tottenham, all need gassing...Get in the showers."

 

I didn't make anything up, check facts before posting drivel.

 

I also never said they were to blame..I said its their fault that a minority of idiots still do this.

Arsenal have as many if not more Jews as fans but they don't get this abuse..why? Because they don't chant like the Spurs fans do.

 

I know your not keen on checking facts but the reason Spurs started this chant many decades ago is well documented and I support that they did that.

However times have changed the atmosphere at grounds is very very different and anti Semitic chants have been all but eradicated, to such an extent that 3 people chanting it is big news.

Spurs fans should recognise this and drop the chant, not because of any connotations with the word but that religion has no place in football. It should be an event for any race, colour, religion to attend and only be "abused" because they support a different team not for any physical or different beliefs they hold.

IMO spurs fans only sing it to be antagonistic I bet most could not tell you the reason why they do.

[sadoldgit]

So if Bradford fans start calling themselves 'Paki Army' or Brighton 'Faggot Army' - you would think that's ok?

 

People can call themselves what they like no matter whether you or I like it or think it is ok. I would assume that they were using the term as an insult. If they called themselves the Bradford or Brighton army and opposing fans called them Pakis or Faggots then that would be seen as hateful. It really isn’t that difficult to draw a distinction.

 

As for the difference between the Jewish connection between Tottenham and Arsenal, Tottenham’s link with the Jewish community in North London has been much more marked over the years including having had 3 Jewish chairmen in recent years. The argument that opposing fans only make anti-Semitic chants because Spurs fans call themselves the Yid Army doesn’t wash. Do Manchester United call themselves the Plane Crash Army? Even if they did, for the reasons stated it is all about context.

[sotonist]

It's problematic because it's not like all of those Spurs fans singing Yid Army are actually Jewish themselves so they don't actually have claim on the term.

 

why does anyone need a claim to call themselves yids?

 

i'm a jew, fight me.

[Turkish]

I don't really understand why people referring to themselves as Jews or Yids is an insult anyway. They tend to make very successful businessmen, are usually pretty smartly dressed, they bring their kid up well to be responsible for their own actions from the age of 13, non of this it's societies fault nonsense, they have fantastic memories, teaching their kids to read long passages from the Torah. There is much in the Jewish culture to admire, even the son of god is one of them. I certainly don't think it would be considered offensive to call someone a Jew that wasn't one, it's a compliment if anything.

[aintforever]

People can call themselves what they like no matter whether you or I like it or think it is ok. I would assume that they were using the term as an insult. If they called themselves the Bradford or Brighton army and opposing fans called them Pakis or Faggots then that would be seen as hateful. It really isn’t that difficult to draw a distinction.

 

As for the difference between the Jewish connection between Tottenham and Arsenal, Tottenham’s link with the Jewish community in North London has been much more marked over the years including having had 3 Jewish chairmen in recent years. The argument that opposing fans only make anti-Semitic chants because Spurs fans call themselves the Yid Army doesn’t wash. Do Manchester United call themselves the Plane Crash Army? Even if they did, for the reasons stated it is all about context.

 

So people can call themselves whatever they want, anyone offended by words like ******, paki or yid just have to put up with it?

[Saint86]

I tend to agree with David Baddiel's take on it.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/17/david-cameron-yid-really-is-race-hate-word

 

Wether your Mrs was offended or no doesn't change the fact that for some, Yid is clearly a race hate word. Would you think it's OK for Luton fans to call themselves the Paki Army, or Brighton to call themselves The Faggot Army?

 

I have quite a blunt stance on this. If it isn't said negatively then it isn't racist. With the exception of words that can only carry one meaning.

 

Someone imitating / laughing at the mass murder and gassing of a particular group of people (i.e. holocaust in this case) is a total sicko and should be locked up and punished severely. Obviously unacceptable and there is no place for that in our society. Just like there is no place for JC's / Momentum's anti semetic Labour in our democracy.

 

But what do I know, I'm only 32 and probably far behind modern day snowflake etiquette.

Edited 13 March, 2019 by Saint86

[100%Red&White]

This has all obviously provoked a bit of a debate but maybe we're losing sight of the increasing probability that this is just a cheap bit of made up journalism. I hope SFC dig a bit deeper as it smacks of being a bit of a malicious slur on the club and its fans, they should ask the Sunday Times to provide the evidence. Contrary to the article, no steward's report, no-one else appears to have heard anything yet they've produced a pretty damning piece for national consumption. And it's just more murky that this offended visitor has to remain anonymous for 'fear of reprisals'. Too convenient.

[Tamesaint]

This has all obviously provoked a bit of a debate but maybe we're losing sight of the increasing probability that this is just a cheap bit of made up journalism. I hope SFC dig a bit deeper as it smacks of being a bit of a malicious slur on the club and its fans, they should ask the Sunday Times to provide the evidence. Contrary to the article, no steward's report, no-one else appears to have heard anything yet they've produced a pretty damning piece for national consumption. And it's just more murky that this offended visitor has to remain anonymous for 'fear of reprisals'. Too convenient.

 

I agree entirely. It smelt bad right from the start and only the naively gullible would want to make it an issue and alter the mood created by Saturday's result.

[sadoldgit]

So people can call themselves whatever they want, anyone offended by words like ******, paki or yid just have to put up with it?

 

You really don’t get it do you? If two Afro-Americans call each other by the n word as a greeting, who exactly are they offending? Do you really believe that people get upset because some Spurs fans identify as Yiddish? If you asked a Pakistani where he was from and he said he was a Paki would it offend you? It is not the word, it is the context in which the word is used.

[Lighthouse]

You really don’t get it do you? If two Afro-Americans call each other by the n word as a greeting, who exactly are they offending? Do you really believe that people get upset because some Spurs fans identify as Yiddish? If you asked a Pakistani where he was from and he said he was a Paki would it offend you? It is not the word, it is the context in which the word is used.

 

It’s not about the context though, it purely comes down to who is saying it, which is wrong IMO.

[Batman]

You really don’t get it do you? If two Afro-Americans call each other by the n word as a greeting, who exactly are they offending? Do you really believe that people get upset because some Spurs fans identify as Yiddish? If you asked a Pakistani where he was from and he said he was a Paki would it offend you? It is not the word, it is the context in which the word is used.

 

I heard on 5live that the IHRA have repeatedly requested that Spurs fans stop calling themselves 'yids' as a collective as it is offensive and never their word to (almost) claim

 

hey ho

[aintforever]

You really don’t get it do you? If two Afro-Americans call each other by the n word as a greeting, who exactly are they offending? Do you really believe that people get upset because some Spurs fans identify as Yiddish? If you asked a Pakistani where he was from and he said he was a Paki would it offend you? It is not the word, it is the context in which the word is used.

 

Yeah, and I don’t think the context of football rivalry is the right one to use it in.

 

It’s not rocket science, if Spurs identify themselves as yids, to the clubs that hate them they become yid c*nts and that’s when anti-semitic chanting starts. I don’t have a problem with blacks calling themselves n*ggers, or Jews calling themselves yids, just a bunch of mainly non Jewish football fans throwing religion into a tribal football environment where banter and abuse is part of the culture.

[Turkish]

Yeah, and I don’t think the context of football rivalry is the right one to use it in.

 

It’s not rocket science, if Spurs identify themselves as yids, to the clubs that hate them they become yid c*nts and that’s when anti-semitic chanting starts. I don’t have a problem with blacks calling themselves n*ggers, or Jews calling themselves yids, just a bunch of mainly non Jewish football fans throwing religion into a tribal football environment where banter and abuse is part of the culture.

 

They aren’t identitying as Jews though, they don’t stand there citing the Torah during matches or refer to their top boy as a Their rabbi. They have adopted the Yid word for their supporters, it has nothing to do with religion. Should saints no longer be refereed to as Saints because saints has catholic connotations and if anyone said “saints c***” it would be offensive to the Catholic Church? Should we stop singing “oh when the saints go marching in” in case it offends catholic’s and or clubs might start singing songs negative songs back to us about catholic’s, or if it offends other religions who may have fans present st the game. You can’t have one rule for Tottenham and another for us.

[Ohio Saint]

I'm not Jewish myself, but I made sure my son was when I begat him because, well his 14 year old mum was Jewish. I thought it would make everything easier all round.... Boy was I wrong!!

 

I had assumed everyone would just get along after I sent my nipper down with all that peace and love hippy stuff. I reckoned it might settle down all that fire, brimstone and killing stuff I did when I was younger.

 

Anyways, I turned up at the footy the other day, Would you Adam and Eve it!!! It turns out that all that stuff my nipper said fell on deaf ears and everything turned out all old testament.

 

I'm not saying that's a good thing per say, it just warmed the cockles of a formerly wrathful god's heart.

[Saint-Fred]

I heard on 5live that the IHRA have repeatedly requested that Spurs fans stop calling themselves 'yids' as a collective as it is offensive and never their word to (almost) claim

 

hey ho

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/tottenham-hotspur-yids-antisemitism-army-jewish-fans-song-chant-racism-latest-news-a8715561.html

 

There is a lot of evidence of the Jewish communities leaders who want it stopped but I suppose, quite rightly according to many on this thread, it's not up to them.

[rick1976.4.38]

Yes, that's a decent article, which explains the point I made on the first page, that many Tottenham fans have adopted the term 'Yids' to try and gain control of what is considered a slur and render it impotent. A minority of Saints 'fans' have attempted to do something similar by adopting the label 'scummer' and forming the slightly comical 'Scum Army'. Much to everyones embarresment.

why is it embarressing? most other fans know as as scummers,

[wadesmith]

why is it embarressing? most other fans know as as scummers,

 

Yeah, I didn't really explain sorry. i was thinking of the time some of our fans had 'Scum Army' flags and wore Ched Evans facemasks outside a pub in Southampton I think. It was a story in the Mirror. In fact if you google 'Ched Evans Mask Scum Army' you can find the whole story & pictures from 2015. That's the embarrasing bit.