Cardiff/Sala - Missing Plane

[Barsiem]

It gets worse, now Cardiff are considering suing Nantes (not the other way round): https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/sport/football-cardiff-considering-legal-action-against-nantes-over-11251324

 

Given the content in there Cardiff may have a point. If nantes were involved in the flight in anyway Cardiff have a right to be peed off. Sounds more like it was the agents fault though.

 

Not convinced on the not registered with the premier league bit either. That shouldn't matter either way

[Batman]

Given the content in there Cardiff may have a point. If nantes were involved in the flight in anyway Cardiff have a right to be peed off. Sounds more like it was the agents fault though.

 

Not convinced on the not registered with the premier league bit either. That shouldn't matter either way

 

Exactly, all clubs have many players not registered to play premier league football

[wild-saint]

Assuming that Nantes had nothing to do with the flights, wouldnt Cardiff trying to wiggle out of paying the fee impact any future purchases? If i owned a club and Cardiff wanted to buy one of my players i would tell them to do one unless it was cash up from in crisp £50 notes.

[BARCELONASAINT]

this is just disgraceful behaviour by Cardiff. All this he is forever a bluebird ******s and he's my player etc etc and then they try by whatever means they can to renege on paying Nantes. The whole episode is disgusting on their part.

[the saint in winchester]

Agree. They have lost the goodwill they accrued by their behaviour of late. It's going to take a while for the exacts facts to be laid out, so in the meantime they should do the honourable thing and pay Nantes. If later enquiries lay the blame at the agent or any other party, Cardiff can claim on them. But right now, settle the bill.

 

In other news, according to a report I read, we are interested in signing the Nantes RB in the summer. Do you think they would deal with any English club now? Cardiff are bringing the game into disrepute.

[SW5 SAINT]

Agree. They have lost the goodwill they accrued by their behaviour of late. It's going to take a while for the exacts facts to be laid out, so in the meantime they should do the honourable thing and pay Nantes. If later enquiries lay the blame at the agent or any other party, Cardiff can claim on them. But right now, settle the bill.

 

In other news, according to a report I read, we are interested in signing the Nantes RB in the summer. Do you think they would deal with any English club now? Cardiff are bringing the game into disrepute.

 

If it suits the agents it will happen.......

[derry]

It seems the agent Willie McKay has issued a statement stating categorically that he didn't own or have any connection with any company that owned the aircraft. Sky saying he hired it just like a taxi and has no idea about legal requirements. So he's successfully, maybe, washed his hands of that. With aviation regulations pretty explicit not leaving any wiggle room there are interesting times ahead. A private pilot flying a single engine aircraft alone at night in icing conditions on a long over sea leg with a plane hired by a third party as a commercial flight is about as dangerous as it could get, unless there are maintenance, regulatory issues with the aircraft itself. I would think the insurance companies are rubbing their hands in anticipation of the accident report later on in the year.

[Window Cleaner]

It seems the agent Willie McKay has issued a statement stating categorically that he didn't own or have any connection with any company that owned the aircraft. Sky saying he hired it just like a taxi and has no idea about legal requirements. So he's successfully, maybe, washed his hands of that. With aviation regulations pretty explicit not leaving any wiggle room there are interesting times ahead. A private pilot flying a single engine aircraft alone at night in icing conditions on a long over sea leg with a plane hired by a third party as a commercial flight is about as dangerous as it could get, unless there are maintenance, regulatory issues with the aircraft itself. I would think the insurance companies are rubbing their hands in anticipation of the accident report later on in the year.

 

Seems that he's saying that Sala's agent N'Diaye found and proposed the plane. Very confusing really.

[Batman]

absolutely disgraceful actions by Cardiff City. You signed a player, he was yours, no one elses. Pay up the transfer fee and stop trying to get out of it because some agents talked up his transfer fee.

I don't suspect Cardiff will get away it for one moment....but just imagine if they did!!!.......how many clubs would suddenly stop payments for players they had bought because they suddenly believed they had paid over the odds for a player because they would have lost out to West Ham who get linked with everyone that ever put on a pair of football boots!

 

decent read here...

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6718009/The-time-Cardiff-care-money-Emiliano-Sala-died.html

 

 

The club's refusal to take responsibility for Sala's doomed itinerary would be pathetic if it were not so tragic. On January 19, Sala's transfer was announced by the club.

 

'It's been a long process to secure the services of Emiliano but I'm very pleased that we're now in a position whereby we can confirm his signature,' said chief executive Ken Choo. 'I'm sure all Cardiff City fans will join me in looking forward to seeing our record signing in a Bluebirds shirt.'

 

Sounds pretty unequivocal. So, why is it Nantes' business who organised his travel two days later? It is said Cardiff sent Sala a text with some British Airways flight options. That's it? A text? No follow-up call? No insistence on scheduled routes? No offer of a private charter that the club could organise?

[derry]

Seems that he's saying that Sala's agent N'Diaye found and proposed the plane. Very confusing really.

 

Go to the Sky News web site. It is pretty detailed. It give a schedule of all the flights ordered by the McKay family as part of the arrangements before and after the transfer. It says that both Sala and / or N'Diaye were on several of the flights arranged and paid for by Mark McKay.

[benjii]

Forever a Bluebird (but not officially, please).

[Batman]

Forever a Bluebird (but not officially, please).

 

you sir, do not belong within the football family™ with an attitude like that

[Give it to Ron]

Agree. They have lost the goodwill they accrued by their behaviour of late. It's going to take a while for the exacts facts to be laid out, so in the meantime they should do the honourable thing and pay Nantes. If later enquiries lay the blame at the agent or any other party, Cardiff can claim on them. But right now, settle the bill.

 

In other news, according to a report I read, we are interested in signing the Nantes RB in the summer. Do you think they would deal with any English club now? Cardiff are bringing the game into disrepute.

Cardiff are Welsh though :-)

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[PaulSaint]

"Cardiff had said they would wait for the outcome of the Air Accidents Investigation Branch following the star's tragic death before paying Nantes the agreed fee.

 

But the contract has now apparently been revealed to have been non-compliant with Premier League rules and was returned for him to sign a revised one, before the horrifying plane crash."

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/8473071/emiliano-sala-signed-invalid-contract-cardiff-city-plane-crash/

[the saint in winchester]

Ownership of the "goods" was with Cardiff. Title had passed. The ball was in Cardiff's court to register him, but he was no longer owned by Nantes. So Nantes surely have a right to settlement?

As I said before, Cardiff may have a claim on another party following the AAIB review, but they can't deny ownership. They had ownership, if not control.

[Micky]

As somebody who has flown as a passenger literally hundreds of times, I have always believed the industry to be highly regulated and fundamentally very safe. However you can never ignore the human factor and that humans (even so called intelligent professionals) will do stupid things at times. I have seen recent reports of commercial pilots who have been nicked for 'drink / flying', which is probably the furthest thing from a passengers mind when they embark. Even today I come across this bbc story of a private pilot who appears to have broken quite a few rules and regulations but luckily everybody got to walk away.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-47316187

 

Really am quite surprised that the industry is perhaps not quite as squeaky clean as I first thought.

[Lighthouse]

As somebody who has flown as a passenger literally hundreds of times, I have always believed the industry to be highly regulated and fundamentally very safe. However you can never ignore the human factor and that humans (even so called intelligent professionals) will do stupid things at times. I have seen recent reports of commercial pilots who have been nicked for 'drink / flying', which is probably the furthest thing from a passengers mind when they embark. Even today I come across this bbc story of a private pilot who appears to have broken quite a few rules and regulations but luckily everybody got to walk away.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-47316187

 

Really am quite surprised that the industry is perhaps not quite as squeaky clean as I first thought.

 

Check out Lion Air in Indonesia, they’re usually good for a laugh.

[LGTL]

Check out Lion Air in Indonesia, they’re usually good for a laugh.

 

I got caught up big time in the earthquake that wrecked northern Lombok back in August. The aftermath at the airport was a sight to behold with people trying to get out, with Lion Air right in the middle of it. Air travel in Indonesia is quite something, even Garuda have their moments.

 

It came as no surprise a few months later when one of their brand new 737’s fell out the sky.

[Saint Garrett]

Travelled on Lion Air a few times when in Thailand - was absolutely fine.

[derry]

As somebody who has flown as a passenger literally hundreds of times, I have always believed the industry to be highly regulated and fundamentally very safe. However you can never ignore the human factor and that humans (even so called intelligent professionals) will do stupid things at times. I have seen recent reports of commercial pilots who have been nicked for 'drink / flying', which is probably the furthest thing from a passengers mind when they embark. Even today I come across this bbc story of a private pilot who appears to have broken quite a few rules and regulations but luckily everybody got to walk away.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-47316187

 

This has similarities to the CI crash. I've known several occasions when Alcoholic pilots have either acted as crew when not sober and an Alcoholic pilot manager who was never to my knowledge under the driving limit. On one occasion on a freighter the Captain taxied out even though I had said to him in the office "you aren't going to let him fly are you" He then had second thoughts and the F/O was sacked. Another occasion the Captain called for a First Officer and found his front door open and the FO was passed out fully dressed on his bed.. He got him up, took him to work and would you believe gave him the first leg of four which of course he cocked up. What I called him when he told me wasn't repeatable. I got the FO out as he was a basket case, it was easy as he was a contract pilot coming up for renewal. I was in the hotel going to bed about 11pm for an early start and helped the managers wife get him upstairs in the lift as he was legless. next morning two crews went to the airport in the same taxi I was gobsmacked when he turned up at about 6am to do a flight to Heathrow that went out just before mine. You'd never know he had been legless only seven hours before.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

But the contract has now apparently been revealed to have been non-compliant with Premier League rules and was returned for him to sign a revised one, before the horrifying plane crash."

 

 

Interesting comments by Samuel in The Mail today. He claims this is standard and goes on a lot. Premier League look through contracts, advise where amendments need to be made and the player then signs an amended contract. He claims this even happens after players have made their debut and cites Scudamore saying he couldn’t understand why West Ham lied about Tezez, because had they been straight the premier league they would have advised them how to legalise his contract and the deal. Makes sense really, particularly on deadline day, with all the hurly and burly going. A few days on a calm reflective look, then amendments made, seems sensible.

 

Putting the moral case to one side, he said that if Cardiff continue down this route and open this can of worms, they will not find favour with the other 19 Premier League clubs . They like the system the way it is: loose.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[benjii]

Sounds thoroughly unprofessional and a cowboy's playground.

 

To be expected though for an impoverished and low-profile industry like football.

[Suhari]

Travelled on Lion Air a few times when in Thailand - was absolutely fine.

 

A good mate of mine is a senior manager in a large consulting company, based in SE Asia. They take hundreds of flights a year, and work with all kinds of big companies, including some of the airlines.

 

Their company policy is that no employee is to fly Lion Air. Ever.

[Saint86]

As somebody who has flown as a passenger literally hundreds of times, I have always believed the industry to be highly regulated and fundamentally very safe. However you can never ignore the human factor and that humans (even so called intelligent professionals) will do stupid things at times. I have seen recent reports of commercial pilots who have been nicked for 'drink / flying', which is probably the furthest thing from a passengers mind when they embark. Even today I come across this bbc story of a private pilot who appears to have broken quite a few rules and regulations but luckily everybody got to walk away.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-47316187

 

Really am quite surprised that the industry is perhaps not quite as squeaky clean as I first thought.

 

Consider most engineering sites where D&A tests are the norm. There you might injure yourself and maybe a couple of other people, plus in extreme cases a site delay and a couple of million fine.

 

Someone crashes an A380 and that would be small fry... why are pilots not tested pre flight? Should a routine thing.

[derry]

Consider most engineering sites where D&A tests are the norm. There you might injure yourself and maybe a couple of other people, plus in extreme cases a site delay and a couple of million fine.

 

Someone crashes an A380 and that would be small fry... why are pilots not tested pre flight? Should a routine thing.

 

Because nearly all pilots are careful about consuming alcohol too close to flying. It's usually the crew that pick up on the bad apple and thinking about self preservation do something about it. The limit for crews is a quarter of the driving limit. Random testing isn't acceptable any more than having a test before leaving a restaurant or pub etc.

[East Kent Saint]

Didn't some Prem clubs introduce testing before training ?? (for footballers)

[Lighthouse]

Because nearly all pilots are careful about consuming alcohol too close to flying. It's usually the crew that pick up on the bad apple and thinking about self preservation do something about it. The limit for crews is a quarter of the driving limit. Random testing isn't acceptable any more than having a test before leaving a restaurant or pub etc.

 

Been randomly tested a couple of times for drugs but never breathalysed. Not sure what the score is on that one, whether they need just cause or can do random breath tests.

[hypochondriac]

Personally if I was flying a plane I'd just abstain from alcohol. Not really worth the risk is it?

[derry]

Personally if I was flying a plane I'd just abstain from alcohol. Not really worth the risk is it?

 

That's pretty much the no brainer. Additionally a lot of pilots have a fair drive in to work. I developed a habit, if driving or flying, no drinking, ever.

[derry]

Been randomly tested a couple of times for drugs but never breathalysed. Not sure what the score is on that one, whether they need just cause or can do random breath tests.

 

I think there has to be just cause, besides the pilot's unions wouldn't take kindly to a heavy hand. I once laid it on the line to our very good MD (Who I played golf with) that he was looking at a bunch of long haul aircraft stranded around the world due to pilot sickness when some management tried it on.

[benjii]

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2019/feb/22/willy-mckay-agent-emiliano-sala-cardiff

 

#mess

 

This lad died due to the greedy, greasy, self-interested arrogance of these ****s.

[Poggs]

Interim report out today. Makes interesting reading.

[AdrianC]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6742721/Emiliano-Salas-pilot-number-basic-errors.html

[derry]

This report pretty much confirms that an unqualified pilot for the conditions faced, flew a single engine aircraft into conditions neither he or the aircraft were equipped for. The aircraft had a de-icing system but was it working and more importantly did the pilot know how to operate it. Just looking at the altitude and track time line it looks like control was lost through a combination of turbulence, cloud, icing and a pilot without the training, experience and qualifications to carry out that flight.

A weather radar was vital to navigate clear of the weather.

 

A commercially qualified crew in a twin engine aircraft with anti-icing plus a weather radar to fly around the cells which would show up clearly would be the absolute minimum requirement. I'm pretty sure any experienced professional pilot wouldn't have attempted that flight in that way in that aircraft in those conditions.

[Lighthouse]

On a VFR flight plan, over the sea, at night and in crap weather, one engine, no weather radar, low altitude...

 

What a cowboy.

[Micky]

If wind in relatively calm skies can do this to an airliner, then I guess an ill equipped light aircraft at night in a storm, with an unqualified pilot is a pretty catastrophic event waiting to happen.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-47360240

 

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

[suewhistle]

On a VFR flight plan, over the sea, at night and in crap weather, one engine, no weather radar, low altitude...

 

What a cowboy.

 

Looks like this thread called it right at the beginning. What _was_ he thinking? What was the hurry? What was in it for him: hours building?

 

I can only comment from a sailing point of view, but depending on the boat, crew etc. you always err on the side of caution in marginal conditions.

 

 

So Lion Air looks like one to avoid. I'll raise you a PIA, in'shallah. Any more to avoid?

[Lighthouse]

If wind in relatively calm skies can do this to an airliner, then I guess an ill equipped light aircraft at night in a storm, with an unqualified pilot is a pretty catastrophic event waiting to happen.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-47360240

 

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

 

I’ve seen an onboard video of this incident from a passenger, which leads me to think it’s pilot induced. Still must have been freaky for those onboard.

[Micky]

I’ve seen an onboard video of this incident from a passenger, which leads me to think it’s pilot induced. Still must have been freaky for those onboard.

The more I read, the more worried I get. "Pilot induced", how, why?

 

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

[Lighthouse]

The more I read, the more worried I get. "Pilot induced", how, why?

 

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

 

The onboard footage starts about 0:40

 

On the top surface of the wing, you will see the flight spoiler raising and lowering. This happens when the pilot applies aileron input (for rolling the plane) beyond a certain amount. On the left wing, this deflects upwards when the pilot is rolling left.

 

If the pilot was attempting to counter turbulence I would expect to see the pilot (i.e. the controls surfaces) rolling left, to counter the turbulence rolling to the right. In other words, when the left wing is raised in this video, I would expect to see the spoiler raise up to counter it. This isn't the case and the aircraft seems to be responding normally to pilot inputs.

 

Why is a different question. I wouldn't want to slag the pilot off without knowing the full circumstances but it does look like he is responding very slowly to the turbulence and just making the situation worse. I've seen it done, by a guy who thought he was the bees knees but was actually a bit of a helmet. Made an absolute dogs dinner of light turbulence on approach and was talking afterwards as if we'd just flown through a hurricane.

 

I wouldn't be worried, it's seldom dangerous, unless you happen to be the upholstery in the cabin.

[darren2]

Had something (that I think was) worse than that heading into Bologna late last year. Snow on the Alps, but 35 degrees as soon as we'd cleared the mountains.

 

We had 5 air pockets in a row, and on the last drop I was literally looking at the ground. The tail came round too but the pilot caught it straight away.

 

Glad to hear there was nothing to worry about ha ha ha.

[derry]

I’ve seen an onboard video of this incident from a passenger, which leads me to think it’s pilot induced. Still must have been freaky for those onboard.

 

I've operated into Gibraltar on many occasions. On my initial trip we had to go to the control tower to view the wind tunnel tests done by the RAF. The photographs graphically show the rotor affect of the winds coming off the rock from certain directions. The rock because of it's shape in effect generates what can only be described as wing vortex.

 

I've experienced the rotor effect on the approach which providing it is appreciated can be coped with satisfactorily. I've seen the video and this aircraft looks too high to be within the area that the rock induced vortex would affect aircraft on the approach. The wind effect I've experienced was in the latter stages of the approach.

[derry]

The effects of flying through cloud cells vary enormously. The frontal weather which generated the weather cells was in normal circumstances perfectly safely flown through by properly equipped aircraft crewed by professionals. The first ten years of my flying career was operating schedules in and out of Jersey and Guernsey and I've experienced that type of weather during climb and descents in that area without problems. On the other hand I've experienced enormous thunderstorm cells over Africa, Asia, Europe and the US which would be absolutely tempting fate to fly into. The only way is stay out of them and carry enough fuel to deviate around them.

[Delboy Dave]

Looks like this thread called it right at the beginning. What _was_ he thinking? What was the hurry? What was in it for him: hours building?

 

Given the money involved in Football, I suspect it was a nice big fat payday

[Whitey Grandad]

If wind in relatively calm skies can do this to an airliner, then I guess an ill equipped light aircraft at night in a storm, with an unqualified pilot is a pretty catastrophic event waiting to happen.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-47360240

 

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

 

'Relatively calm skies'?

 

Gibraltar is notorious for having difficult winds and is considered by some to be the most dangerous airport in Europe. Something to do with the wind coming down off The Rock.

[derry]

'Relatively calm skies'?

 

Gibraltar is notorious for having difficult winds and is considered by some to be the most dangerous airport in Europe. Something to do with the wind coming down off The Rock.

 

What is not generally known is that the pilot's approach charts have a diagram which shows wind angle and strength on the rock. This chart shows quadrants that close the runway if the wind exceeds given speeds from some directions. I wouldn't call it dangerous. We used the simulator to prepare for the approach etc and the actual flights proved pretty routine in spite of the rotor effect which needs to be understood in advance so that the right actions are carried out.The approach and engine out escape route at Innsbruck is interesting.

[Micky]

'Relatively calm skies'?

 

Gibraltar is notorious for having difficult winds and is considered by some to be the most dangerous airport in Europe. Something to do with the wind coming down off The Rock.

 

Never been there. Was simply going by the nice blue sky in the picture. And the fact that I've never seen a commercial plane roll quite so much in what looked, to the untrained eye, as 'relatively calm skies'

[Micky]

Cardiff transfer payment investigated by Fifa:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47384817

[S-Clarke]

Absolute scum club. No other way around it. They're trying to get out of it.

 

Tough ****. Tragic what happened, they milked it enough and tried to make it all about them, but now they want nothing to do with it.

[Wurzel]

Chairman Mehmet Dalman said Cardiff will be "honourable" with Nantes if they are contractually obliged to pay.

 

That's not being "honourable", that's just grudgingly doing what they legally have to do.

 

Being "honourable" would be doing the right thing and compensating Nantes as they had agreed to do for the player who, whey have told all and sundry on many occasions, was "Forever a Bluebird".