Saints 1 West Ham 2 - Post Match Reality Check

[adrian lord]

We waved the white flag by putting Long on.

[SuperSAINT]

We waved the white flag by putting Long on.

 

Who, for all his technical deficiencies, surprised me by not sprinting around & closing down like a man possessed when he came on.

[Chez]

 

As is why he set us up so negatively and then failed to address it too.

 

very few attacking options at his disposal. We badly need to bring in an alternative option to Redmond. Bringing Long or Austin off the bench is not enough to change a game. We need to keep adding more flair to the final third, and strength and pace and and and...and better players everywhere.

[Window Cleaner]

very few attacking options at his disposal. We badly need to bring in an alternative option to Redmond. Bringing Long or Austin off the bench is not enough to change a game. We need to keep adding more flair to the final third, and strength and pace and and and...and better players everywhere.

 

But what we realy need to do is aquire players who are of some utility to us and stop buying players who are no better than we already have. We signed players who cost us about what 70 million or so last summer and we're still no better than we already were.

[angelman]

Beaten by the better side on the night

Anderson was good for them and Rice was excellent

 

 

We needed our wingbacks to be a threat, they were not and Valery was terrible

 

I didn't respond to your post at half time last night. The network dropped out. I thought first half, that there was a fair bit of unfair criticism of the team. However, that seemed to even itself out in the 2nd half, especially after their first goal, so our differing opinions is a moot point really.

 

They had a plan and it worked. They targeted Ings, kicked him about a bit. Their defenders are big solid lumps who are quick on their feet. Diop and Antonio in particular. I though Antonio probably, along with Anderson, to be their best 2 players. Valery seemed out of his depth with this one against Anderson.

 

We lacked pace which they had, and to let a goal in from a corner that you have taken is always pretty poor. Lemina has some, but not sure what his problem was last night. Maybe the PSG links are playing on his mind. Long has some, but can't control it.

[beatlesaint]

Alarm bells have started re-ringing.

 

Why Ralph has knackered us out so much we can’t compete in a winnable game is beyond me.

 

As is why he set us up so negatively and then failed to address it too.

 

was it beyond you when they beat Arsenal ?

 

Alarm bells ringing ? seriously ? Can you not just accept West Ham were better than us on the night and that we are a work in progress ?

[saintwbu]

West Ham just did a job on us. Happened under Poch, happened under Koeman. Sometimes, no matter how effective your game plan may be against most teams, some managers are just good enough to stifle it. From the off you could see we were slower moving the ball, McCarthy’s distribution much slower, because West Ham knew exactly what we wanted to do and stopped it. Ref was shambolic, allowed them to waste time from the first minute so they could slow us down and break up play, anyone who was at Huddersfield on Saturday saw Valery (?) get booked for one throw in that wasn’t even that slow, and yet West Ham got away with absolutely everything last night. As for Carroll, ****ing hell im glad we don’t have him in our team, would find it extremely difficult to enjoy watching us if we did. An absolute thug of the highest order and astonishing that he wasn’t booked, I still can’t believe it now - I had to go home and rewatch all the incidents after the game and they were actually even worse than I thought in the ground!!

[S-Clarke]

They were way better than us last night, we looked confused and tired.

 

Both full backs for us were absolute garbage, it has to be said. Lemina was Lemina, you think he's decent and then he does that.

 

Redmond just ran into dead ends all night and we weren't able to stretch them. Good honest assessment from RH at the end though, that's why I feel confident that these displays will become few and far between over time.

[davefizzy14]

West Ham just did a job on us. Happened under Poch, happened under Koeman. Sometimes, no matter how effective your game plan may be against most teams, some managers are just good enough to stifle it. From the off you could see we were slower moving the ball, McCarthy’s distribution much slower, because West Ham knew exactly what we wanted to do and stopped it. Ref was shambolic, allowed them to waste time from the first minute so they could slow us down and break up play, anyone who was at Huddersfield on Saturday saw Valery (?) get booked for one throw in that wasn’t even that slow, and yet West Ham got away with absolutely everything last night. As for Carroll, ****ing hell im glad we don’t have him in our team, would find it extremely difficult to enjoy watching us if we did. An absolute thug of the highest order and astonishing that he wasn’t booked, I still can’t believe it now - I had to go home and rewatch all the incidents after the game and they were actually even worse than I thought in the ground!!

 

I agree with this. I was there last night and I still thought that we could have got something out of the game with a bit more luck. I don't understand all this criticism towards Lemina, I thought he had a good game despite the fact he isn't 100% fit yet. I think people forget he hasn't played a lot recently. Sky Sports gave him the highest rating for us! I thought the ref was atrocious, allowing West Ham to time waste from the off. Carroll should have been off for 2 cinical fouls. Their second goal came from a clear foul which should have been a penalty to us. Still we are a work in progress under Ralph and it will take time. In Ralph we trust!

Edited 28 December, 2018 by davefizzy14

[Matthew Le God]

Both full backs for us were absolute garbage, it has to be said.

 

Targett and Valery had a difficult night because West Ham were overloading wide areas and both our fullbacks had very little support from teammates. At times Targett and Valery were having to deal with 2 and sometimes 3 West Ham players on their own.

[Lord Duckhunter]

God, we’ve got some soft arses as supporters. Stop crying about Andy Carroll, it’s not Corinthian Casuals from the 1880’s where players have to call fouls against themselves. Not particularly a fan of his, but I wish some of our choirboys would rattle a few bones like he did yesterday. We didn’t lose because nasty Andy bullied a couple of our little darlings, or because the referee didn’t protect us. At times it looked like real men against boys. We missed tackles, got outmuscled and outfought. ****ing hell, some of you would suffer PTSD if you had to watch tackles from the 60’s or 70’s.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Red]

And if you watched from the very first minute, it's what West Ham game plan was - quick passing so our pressing didn't work, and then overload the flanks so the full backs didn't have the chance to get forward as quickly - meaning when we had the ball we were outnumbered in midfield, which is why we looked slow and ponderous and gave the ball away a lot due to a lack of outlets.

 

It was an extremely clever system deployed by Pellegrini - one of the old tactical masters.

 

This was always going to be a problem - our tactics were going to be countered at some point - just hoped it was a bit later than last night! Pep is a master at tactics too, so we will need a plan B, hope Ralph has a few up his sleeves?

[Mosin]

I agree with this. I was there last night and I still thought that we could have got something out of the game with a bit more luck. I don't understand all this criticism towards Lemina, I thought he had a good game despite the fact he isn't 100% fit yet. I think people forget he hasn't played a lot recently. Sky Sports gave him the highest rating for us! I thought the ref was atrocious, allowing West Ham to time waste from the off. Carroll should have been off for 2 cinical fouls. Their second goal came from a clear foul which should have been a penalty to us. Still we are a work in progress under Ralph and it will take time. In Ralph we trust!

 

he has played pretty much every game this season, he has missed just 2 out of 21 games against gunners and Spurs he should not have lost any match fitness at all and should be nice and fresh when compared to the ones who also started....…… I don't think he played too badly, a few costly mistakes at key times, but I wont jump on him for them. Team was tired.

[kyle04]

A real struggle last night, we never looked in control of the game at any point, although ultimately we were done by the ref for their 2nd, but it was a brilliant counter. We will have a few games like this when we need a bit of luck maybe to get a result, certainly the next 2 ! WHU had several injuries but were more energetic, physical and moved the ball well. Our wing backs were caught high up the pitch when our moves broke down on several occasions. Going forward Ings and Redmond couldn't get going and we created very little. Vest had a good game IMO and seems to be improving with every game. Valery and Targett were naive at times but are still learning the trade. As has been pointed out we looked jaded from the 1st minute, I fear for the City game as there is little time for recovery, and little in the way of stand in players if we rotate. WHU were the better team for sure, but we weren't demolished and might have scraped a point.

But let's be realistic, we are a relatively poor side fighting to stay in the division, not a potential top 10 outfit, yet, and there are 4/5 teams worse than us...

[doddisalegend]

A few people saying Armstrong played well.....

He is ok on the ball but off the ball he was very poor in my view. He doesn’t show for the ball enough and last night did not join in with the ‘press’ hardly once leaving Ings to tire himself out while he stood and watched.

Ings spoke to him several times about that during the game but still Armstrong didn’t press.

This contributed also to Antonio having the freedom of St Mary’s in the first half with Armstrong nowhere to be seen.

So yes ok on the ball but ok but off it not contributing enough and does hide at times.

 

The reason Antonio had so much freedom is because Mat Targett runs like he is in treacle and got done again and again by Antonio's pace. I saw Armstrong pressing plenty last night.

[Mosin]

The reason Antonio had so much freedom is because Mat Targett runs like he is in treacle and got done again and again by Antonio's pace. I saw Armstrong pressing plenty last night.

 

Then his team mates should help out and give Target more cover, It is a team game.

[verlaine1979]

WH had more speed and strength in every department, passed the ball quicker and more accurately, and had a player of significantly higher quality to finish off half of their decent chances (if Perez was sharper, the game would've finished in a drubbing).

 

Anderson was expensive, sure, but he shows up Redmond's limitations quite dramatically. Our most creative player isn't anywhere near that level, either in pace or technique.

[StrangelyBrown]

WH had more speed and strength in every department, passed the ball quicker and more accurately, and had a player of significantly higher quality to finish off half of their decent chances (if Perez was sharper, the game would've finished in a drubbing).

 

Anderson was expensive, sure, but he shows up Redmond's limitations quite dramatically. Our most creative player isn't anywhere near that level, either in pace or technique.

Or you could argue that wh demonstrated what a good attaching player can when other players run well off the ball and create space for them

 

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

[Batman]

Ralph just said that Lemina was not fully fit yesterday and is still carrying an injury

 

He wanted long to add more pace but he never did that

 

We need to be much quicker in attack otherwise, we become easier to defend against, line West Ham managed

 

He said the one or two of the players felt tired in the 2nd half yesterday. Coaches trying to build up their fitness. It hard with games every couple of days. Enjoying the challenge

Edited 28 December, 2018 by Batman

[doddisalegend]

Then his team mates should help out and give Target more cover, It is a team game.

 

Which the CBs had to do constantly while Targett (and Valery) failed to drop back to recover their mistakes but dawdled back or stood and watched our biggest weakness last night was our two wingbacks who both had very poor games.

[doddisalegend]

WH had more speed and strength in every department, passed the ball quicker and more accurately, and had a player of significantly higher quality to finish off half of their decent chances (if Perez was sharper, the game would've finished in a drubbing).

 

Anderson was expensive, sure, but he shows up Redmond's limitations quite dramatically. Our most creative player isn't anywhere near that level, either in pace or technique.

 

the stats don't back that up what west ham did have was a lot more energy and a bit of pace.

[Snopper]

Ralph just said that Lemina was not fully fit yesterday and is still carrying an injury

 

He wanted long to add more pace but he never did that

 

We need to be much quicker in attack otherwise, we become easier to defend against, line West Ham managed

 

He said the one or two of the players felt tired in the 2nd half yesterday. Coaches trying to build up their fitness. It hard with games every couple of days. Enjoying the challenge

 

Just seen his presser - he sure is an honest guy, tells it like it is and is obviously very committed (up late analysing last night so he can tell the team today what he saw and what he expects.) I like the cut of his jib and think we may have a good `un at last.

[SFC Forever]

Well we lost and deservedly so. I saw a tired looking team out muscled by a stronger, quicker outfit. Not really a surprise as the team is adjusting to a much tougher training regime, and new style of play. I believe Ralph is learning how poor his choices are and fully expect to see players leave in transfer window. I also hope that he is allowed to bring in some players from the Bundesliga that knows will improve our team.

I would release Forster from his contract so he can get one with a half decent wage made up with a decent signing on fee.

Gabbiadini should be allowed to go to make space.

Long has to go.

Davis has to go.

JWP should also move on as he is only going to be a bit part player.

Austin has to go as he is not mobile enough.

Hoedt I am afraid scares the pants of me and I just don't know whether he will ever make it as a reliable cb.

 

We need to give Ralph time to sort out our team. He has shown he can do it previously so in him we must trust. I am disappointed by last night but above all I am now and always will be a Saints supporter. From Div 3 south I have witnessed the highs and lows and believe we will soon be able to enjoy our football more regularly.

[Batman]

Be interesting to see if West Ham get Rice signed up long term... I hope England can tie him down. Be bizarre business if reports are true that West Ham will pay Nasri £80k a week but penny pinch with Rice..

 

Missed the energy Hoj brings and even watching parts of the game this morning, for all our moans about the ref, our goal probably should not have stood.!!!!

 

That and our wingbacks were terrible.

Along with some excellent defending (as a team) from West Ham.

Edited 28 December, 2018 by Batman

[aintforever]

We just looked tired, Ralph probably should have freshened it up a bit but you can't blame him for keeping the same side given the state of the squad.

 

Hopefully we can shift some dead wood out in January and give him something to work with.

[Heisenberg]

We are still allowed to point and laugh at WHU right?

 

Oh & will they still get relegated as they are a mess of a club? Another CB Fry classic

[ALWAYS_SFC]

We are still allowed to point and laugh at WHU right?

 

Oh & will they still get relegated as they are a mess of a club? Another CB Fry classic

 

Most just point and laugh at you

[CB Fry]

 

Oh & will they still get relegated as they are a mess of a club? Another CB Fry classic [emoji38]

 

You'll have to remind me of that one sweetheart.

[captainchris]

The reason Antonio had so much freedom is because Mat Targett runs like he is in treacle and got done again and again by Antonio's pace. I saw Armstrong pressing plenty last night.

Sorry no full back can operate without some help and Armstrong was nowhere to be seen......

Armstrong did not press so I’m not sure which game you saw or if you may just be a ball watcher.

[CanadaSaint]

Am I the only one on here who hates the idea of the opposite full back taking corners?

 

Unless the cross is excellent, there's a high chance of a fast counter and us not catching up to it. I doesn't matter whether it's Targett, Bertrand or Usain Bolt.

 

I will never see the point of taking that risk just to get an in-swinging cross in.

[supersonic]

very few attacking options at his disposal. We badly need to bring in an alternative option to Redmond. Bringing Long or Austin off the bench is not enough to change a game. We need to keep adding more flair to the final third, and strength and pace and and and...and better players everywhere.

 

Nothing to do with players at our disposal, in the first half, I counted 7 occasions that WH attacked us and we had all 11 men behind the ball, punted it long and we had nobody up there. That's basic IMO.

 

was it beyond you when they beat Arsenal ?

 

Alarm bells ringing ? seriously ? Can you not just accept West Ham were better than us on the night and that we are a work in progress ?

 

Alarm bells are how quickly we rolled over and failed to respond both from a playing and managing point of view. Had Hughes been in charge last night people would have crucified him on here for subs and tactics.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Sorry no full back can operate without some help and Armstrong was nowhere to be seen......

Armstrong did not press so I’m not sure which game you saw or if you may just be a ball watcher.

 

 

I agree with doddisalegend and i`m guessing you are the ball watcher, Armstrong is decent and was pressing last night

[Wes Tender]

We are still allowed to point and laugh at WHU right?

 

Oh & will they still get relegated as they are a mess of a club? Another CB Fry classic

 

As likely as Man Utd to get relegated. That one?

[Nolan]

Splitting hairs, but we're playing with wing backs.

 

They're positional meant to be nearer the mids.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Am I the only one on here who hates the idea of the opposite full back taking corners?

 

Unless the cross is excellent, there's a high chance of a fast counter and us not catching up to it. I doesn't matter whether it's Targett, Bertrand or Usain Bolt.

 

I will never see the point of taking that risk just to get an in-swinging cross in.

 

I want he best corner taker on them whatever his position is bar the keeper of course

[DT]

Just seen his presser - he sure is an honest guy, tells it like it is and is obviously very committed (up late analysing last night so he can tell the team today what he saw and what he expects.) I like the cut of his jib and think we may have a good `un at last.

 

Agreed. I saw it too. Obafemi out. He was hoping ‘Longy’ would offer his pace threat but disappointed he didn’t. Might bring in youngsters. Said Lemina still suffering with a chest injury. Felt he missed his v important Hoj in tackling and assists. Says may be wise to stop City in the middle and force them outside down the flanks as others have had success in doing. Honest bloke. Never swerves a question, says there will be dips but progression is clear

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wes Tender]

God, we’ve got some soft arses as supporters. Stop crying about Andy Carroll, it’s not Corinthian Casuals from the 1880’s where players have to call fouls against themselves. Not particularly a fan of his, but I wish some of our choirboys would rattle a few bones like he did yesterday. We didn’t lose because nasty Andy bullied a couple of our little darlings, or because the referee didn’t protect us.

 

Is it too much to ask for some consistency in refereeing? Fine if he's going to let the carthorse Carroll get away with industrial level thuggery, provided that he allows our players the same. He didn't.

[Batman]

Is it too much to ask for some consistency in refereeing? Fine if he's going to let the carthorse Carroll get away with industrial level thuggery, provided that he allows our players the same. He didn't.

 

Then the ref should have ruled out our goal.

I still think we would have lost

[CB Fry]

As likely as Man Utd to get relegated. That one?

Well that vintage post was specifically about me saying West Ham were not getting relegated that season so obviously not. And, lets remember, they did not get relegated that season.

[Mosin]

Which the CBs had to do constantly while Targett (and Valery) failed to drop back to recover their mistakes but dawdled back or stood and watched our biggest weakness last night was our two wingbacks who both had very poor games.

 

If they push up and the midfield lose possession its not the full back's fault, they need to push up to offer width other wise we will have none, Lemina and Romeu and Armstrong and Redmond are all needed to help the full backs, we failed on a lot of defensive duties yesterday and gave the ball away in very silly areas resulting in WH counter attacking down the wings cause are full backs are pushed right up creating width for the team. This hardly happened when Hoj was playing as he covers extremely well for the full backs as can be seen in the gunners game.

[Dalek2003]

We are still allowed to point and laugh at WHU right?

 

Oh & will they still get relegated as they are a mess of a club? Another CB Fry classic

 

Does anyone take CB Fry seriously? He was a busted flush some years ago.

[saintquin]

So are we going to be relegated again now?

[shurlock]

The reason Antonio had so much freedom is because Mat Targett runs like he is in treacle and got done again and again by Antonio's pace. I saw Armstrong pressing plenty last night.

 

Armstrong pressed but didn’t provide the wingback/fullback much cover.

 

That’s what happens when you tuck Armstrong and Redmond inside -whether it is to get them closer to Ings or cut off the passing lanes through the middle of the pitch (and in principle squeeze play to the touch lines where the team in possession has fewer options).

 

In short, Wham handily exposed the limitations of RH’s system.

[SFC Forever]

Am I the only one on here who hates the idea of the opposite full back taking corners?

 

Unless the cross is excellent, there's a high chance of a fast counter and us not catching up to it. I doesn't matter whether it's Targett, Bertrand or Usain Bolt.

 

I will never see the point of taking that risk just to get an in-swinging cross in.

As this is supposedly a team game then there should have been someone cvovering for him. He takes excellent corners and it doesn't take a brain surgeon to work out the need to cover his empty position.

[Batman]

Be interesting to see if West Ham get Rice signed up long term... I hope England can tie him down. Be bizarre business if reports are true that West Ham will pay Nasri £80k a week but penny pinch with Rice..

 

Missed the energy Hoj brings and even watching parts of the game this morning, for all our moans about the ref, our goal probably should not have stood.!!!!

 

That and our wingbacks were terrible.

Along with some excellent defending (as a team) from West Ham.

 

Further to this, Rice has signed a deal with them

[Chez]

Am I the only one on here who hates the idea of the opposite full back taking corners?

 

Unless the cross is excellent, there's a high chance of a fast counter and us not catching up to it. I doesn't matter whether it's Targett, Bertrand or Usain Bolt.

 

I will never see the point of taking that risk just to get an in-swinging cross in.

 

amen to that. Mind you if it means that we have someone other than Targett dropping back that can only be a bonus. Seriously though, the number of times we have conceded from our own corners is ridiculous and needs addressing. Changing the taker is probably just the start.

[Chez]

Further to this, Rice has signed a deal with them

 

lucky them. Looked top draw last night. It was a great battle between him and Romeu by the way.

[doddisalegend]

If they push up and the midfield lose possession its not the full back's fault, they need to push up to offer width other wise we will have none, Lemina and Romeu and Armstrong and Redmond are all needed to help the full backs, we failed on a lot of defensive duties yesterday and gave the ball away in very silly areas resulting in WH counter attacking down the wings cause are full backs are pushed right up creating width for the team. This hardly happened when Hoj was playing as he covers extremely well for the full backs as can be seen in the gunners game.

 

except two of the worse culprits for giving the ball away last night were the wingbacks. I'm well aware how wingbacks work and those didn't work hard enough to get up and down the pitch as the position requires imo.

[Ludwig]

Is it too much to ask for some consistency in refereeing? Fine if he's going to let the carthorse Carroll get away with industrial level thuggery, provided that he allows our players the same. He didn't.

Yes, because referees are human and humans are inconsistent. How long have people spoken about refereeing inconsistencies? It's not new.

[doddisalegend]

Armstrong pressed but didn’t provide the wingback/fullback much cover.

 

That’s what happens when you tuck Armstrong and Redmond inside -whether it is to get them closer to Ings or cut off the passing lanes through the middle of the pitch (and in principle squeeze play to the touch lines where the team in possession has fewer options).

 

In short, Wham handily exposed the limitations of RH’s system.

 

which is fair enough observation but as I pointed out on another thread to play this way Ralph needs a much better quality of fullback/wingback in the team and certainly more pace than Targett and Valery seem to have. Wingbacks have to cover a **** lot of ground busting a gut to get forward and get back again far to often last night they just gave up and left it to the CBs for my liking.