Saints 1 West Ham 2 - Post Match Reality Check

[st alex]

Two clinical finishes by a £40m attacker that's better than anything we've got.

Penalty shouts aside, I think we overextended ourselves on that corner. We have a habit the last couple years of conceding goals from our own corners, it's something the coaches need to address.

 

Wonder if we've conceded more than we've scored from our own corners in the past couple of years. Did we do it in successive games last year?

[Vancouver Saint]

Just listened to post-game show - ex ref Dermott wassisname says with VAR their second goal would have been cancelled and it would have been called back for a penalty to us!

 

...also that our first goal would not have stood for a handball...

[Shroppie]

I'm not going to pretend we didn't deserve to lose that, because WH were clearly the better team, but with the ref missing the rugby tackle on Bednarek right before their second goal, and Mccarthy being questionable for both of them, it's not unreasonable to suggest we might have got something out of it.

McCarthy had no chance for the second goal and was unsighted, mainly by the ref, for the first.

 

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[shurlock]

Poor Valery was having to mark Anderson and Cresswell on his own with no support.

 

 

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Thats a byproduct of RH's system. With Redmond and Armstrong tucked inside, it leaves plenty of space down the flanks. It puts additional pressure on the central midfielders to cover sideways across the pitch. Lemina can do it but lacks the discipline. Romeu has the football brain but not the mobility. PEH, whatever his faults on the ball, does that job well and was a miss tonight.

[Sheaf Saint]

McCarthy’s positioning. Discuss

 

 

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Like I said in the match thread: to get caught unsighted by a long range shot once can be forgiven. For it to happen twice in 2 games cannot be put down to bad luck.

 

As for the second goal - it was a decent hit but it was centre of the goal at head height.

 

I think he will be disappointed with both of them.

[Nolan]

Thats a byproduct of RH's system. With Redmond and Armstrong tucked inside, it leaves plenty of space down the flanks. It puts additional pressure on the central midfielders to cover sideways across the pitch. Lemina can do it but lacks the discipline. Romeu has the football brain but not the mobility. PEH, whatever his faults on the ball, does that job well and was a miss tonight.

Plus Bednarek had just been manhandled to the ground.

[badgerx16]

I could see absolutely no way the ref could justify not giving firstly a card to Carroll for a deliberate kick to the ankle and a penalty to Saints for the right tackle on Bednarek.

 

Maybe not deliberate but close to it, and at least utterly incompetent. He was treating incidents in a way that was simply not consistent with the Laws.

Oh, I agree about Carroll - should have got a straight red for the elbow, but the ref probably bottled it as he had just that minute come on. ( There was a bit in the commentary on the stream I watched where Andy Townsend said that Carroll's third touch in the game was his first contact with the ball ). But incompetence does not equate with 'robbery'.

[Daft Kerplunk]

Lack of quality depth in the squad was exposed tonight. We were exposed physically too, any team will now see that if you get after us and bully us then we can’t currently cope. Players still adapting the extra physical work so a lull was to be expected. We have to beat the teams around us as we probably won’t get much out of the top 12 as shown today unless Ralph gets a decent transfer budget in January.

[Plumstead_Saint]

I think Ralf gave a better performance post match than many of the players did on the pitch...

We weren't good enough tonight, and that was disappointing.

Shame we couldn't keep the momentum going, but this is going to take time....

[pimpin4rizeal]

Angers me tbh that long is higher in the pecking order then gabbi..utterly useless when he came on with first touch like a shovel.i think this substitution for ings pretty much killed us.

[Viking Saint]

Oh, I agree about Carroll - should have got a straight red for the elbow, but the ref probably bottled it as he had just that minute come on. ( There was a bit in the commentary on the stream I watched where Andy Townsend said that Carroll's third touch in the game was his first contact with the ball ). But incompetence does not equate with 'robbery'.

 

I'd laugh if I wasn't so f*&ked off with the c&ut. Why do Premiership referees not pick this up? It's not like it's without precedent.

[LaptopSaint]

Wingbacks. I have to say Matt Targett frustrates the hell out of me. Valery was pretty exposed tonight against both Anderson and Cresswell, but he's learning. That cross at the end slightly summed up his night though. Need Bertie and Cedric back if they're both on the bus.

Mario I love but I don't know what was with him tonight - maybe he hasn't quite understood the new system yet, and he kept giving it away. Will be good to see PEH back.

Redmond still needs support because he scares defenders but he had one of those days when nothing quite come off apart from punching the ball into the net for our goal.

The penalty denied followed by breakaway and clinical finish was tough to take but West Ham were the better side and deserved to win.

Lots for Ralph to think about and get done - but I'm confident the second half of the season will be much better than the first.

COYR

[EBS1980]

I think Ralf gave a better performance post match than many of the players did on the pitch...

We weren't good enough tonight, and that was disappointing.

Shame we couldn't keep the momentum going, but this is going to take time....

 

What did he say?

[Nordic Saint]

We were beaten by a team with better players. Ralph has done well so far with the limited squad at his disposal but it is going to take at least 2 transfer windows to sort out the mess Old Les left us with. From the Academy products like Targett to the expensive buys like Lemina, our players simply weren't as as fast, as skilful or as strong as West Ham's. Even their goalkeeper is a class above ours and we have no one anywhere near as good as Felipe Anderson.

 

I still feel optimistic though. We have got a good manager and he will bring in some good players.

[Cabbage_Face]

Second goal fine. First goal awful. And it happens a lot. Last week's goal was just weird. Good shot tonight, but not right in the corner, near post. Not sure if he's slow to cover the ground or just poorly positioned.

 

Neither, just a fine strike with a lot of power.

 

 

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[shurlock]

Plus Bednarek had just been manhandled to the ground.

 

It was a feature throughout the game; not just their second goal. Arsenal didnt expose it because they dont have much pace out wide. Sterling and Sane certainly will.

[badgerx16]

Angers me tbh that long is higher in the pecking order then gabbi.

Hasn't Gabbi been told he can leave ?

[mrfahaji]

Wonder if we've conceded more than we've scored from our own corners in the past couple of years. Did we do it in successive games last year?

 

Have a feeling one time was against West Ham (away). Maybe West Ham amd Newcastle?

[Shroppie]

Troll or f*cking moron? Which is it?

Possibly both.

 

We came out with passion and energy. Didn't manage to score from two or three promising attacks. Faded as the half wore on, but still well in the game.

 

Biggest failing was not renewing intensity after we scored. Back to not closing down the shot. Although the ref helped by helping to block McCarthy's view.

 

Lemina was guilty of being too clever in the wrong areas. Valery struggled bit was far from bad. The CBs were good. Romeu excellent. Armstrong had a good game, Redmond didn't get the breaks and admittedly dithered once it twice. Ings looked a little off the pace. Shame Obafemi wasn't available.

 

Yes we tired after their second goal and stopped winning the midfield battles. But just how much would we have been energised if we'd been given the obvious penalty rather than them breaking down the field to score? That moment of appalling refereeing settled the game.

 

 

 

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[Cabbage_Face]

Like I said in the match thread: to get caught unsighted by a long range shot once can be forgiven. For it to happen twice in 2 games cannot be put down to bad luck.

 

As for the second goal - it was a decent hit but it was centre of the goal at head height.

 

I think he will be disappointed with both of them.

 

What are you on about? You can’t really tell people to get out the way in goal.

good players will use the fact a goalkeeper is unsighted to their advantage. Sadly it’s one of those things in goal, people get in the way and you don’t see it till late, you have to use your reactions and if the shot is too powerful you have zero chance of saving it. Watching it 100 times on a replay is very different to facing it at that precise moment. Personally he was more at fault for the Huddersfield goal, but that did swerve all over the gaff.

 

I’m in the goalkeeper union, McCarthy is decent. Much better than forster.

 

 

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[JakkoUK]

The better team won today, no doubt about that. They were far more composed and better with the ball than us. Anderson, Rice and Cresswell being the stand out players for them. I think Valery and Targett definitely showed their inexperience today and West-ham exploited that perfectly.

 

There was a clear foul in the box on Bednarek leading to their counter attack from our corner, but that shouldn’t be an excuse for the way we were set up to defend that. It was poor.

 

The refereeing was awful today though, the clear penalty and then those awful tackles on Romeu from Carrol just seconds of him coming onto the pitch. Both worthy of yellows with the second even maybe a straight red. Then again our goal was a hand ball?

 

We looked like we missed PEH today, his forward passing and distribution just wasn’t replaced by Lemina who I thought was very poor today. He looked like he needed game time, as he just didn’t catch up with the game. Bad decision making, poor passing and composure. At times he just held onto the ball too long.

 

Best highlights for us was Ings looking bright (questionable substitution). Stuart Armstrong with some decent efforts and movement on the ball and then Vestergaard looking solid.

[Plumstead_Saint]

What did he say?

Didn't bite on the [sarcastic?] suggestion that we deserved to win.

Mentioned foul on Bed before their goal, but refused to blame the officials for us losing.

Said it was disappointing and several players didn't really perform well enough or have their best game today.

When asked whether it was too many games in a short time, said some of the players looked tired onthe pitch tonight, but this is the premier league and everybody knows the fixtures in advance.

Basically didn't use any of the excuses offered and admitted performance was disappointing, without naming/shaming anyone.

Fair and honest reflection IMO.

[Rory Peepa]

I think the better team won and apart

From first 5-10 mins we looked short

on energy which is a concern. Their midfield dominant and although we

Could’ve scored another I think it’s a case of normal service resumed. Lots to do.

 

 

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[CanadaSaint]

It's certainly not an excuse but perhaps an explanation. The fixtures come thick and fast at this time of year, and on top of that the players have seen more training, higher-intensity training, and higher-intensity playing tactics.

 

There were signs of not only physical fatigue tonight, but also mental fatigue - players who now have to think about what they're doing rather than play by instinct.

 

We'll be much better for this in the long run, but pulling this club out of its self-created hole is going to be a work in progress for some time.

[Saint Pete]

I think Ralph has done great so far and I've got confidence that we will be fine this season, although in the short term, we may drop back into bottom 3 with our upcoming games.

 

But I do think he made a mistake today playing Valery up against Andersson who was always going to be the main threat. He subbed him in the Huddersfield game and I thought it was quite likely he would be exposed in this one against better opposition. What we don't really know is what is going on with Cedric. It seems he is fit so possibly a move is being lined up? Otherwise can't understand why we haven't seen him in the squad in last couple of games.

 

If Cedric does go, this game reinforces that we really need to sign at least one quality right back, possibly 2.

 

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[captainchris]

Troll or f*cking moron? Which is it?

 

What’s the matter mate that was a fair and accurate summary!

We were second best in every department tonight. There was no press, no support at all for the guy on the ball, Armstrong was a complete passenger though they all looked tired you have to say.

We were taught a serious lesson in pressing and how to offer options for the player in the ball tonight.

Well done to West Ham who were excellent.

[Shroppie]

What’s the matter mate that was a fair and accurate summary!

We were second best in every department tonight. There was no press, no support at all for the guy on the ball, Armstrong was a complete passenger though they all looked tired you have to say.

We were taught a serious lesson in pressing and how to offer options for the player in the ball tonight.

Well done to West Ham who were excellent.

The most pathetic attempted defence of a troll by another. Or probably the original poster under a different login.

 

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[whelk]

Not many positives but we tend t9 get carried away positively and negatively. West Ham fully deserved win and our passing was woeful. Need stronger FBs

[stknowle]

I thought we looked tired, and ran out of gas.

 

We did, apart from the first five minutes I thought we were second best, never really troubled them, never found any space, gave the ball away a lot, and lost out in most 50/50's. Le Tissier was saying pre-match how he had watched us training in the week and never seen that level of intensity in training before. I think it may have caught up with us.

[benjii]

Vestergaard and Romeu were probably our best players and I thought Armstrong did pretty well when he got on the ball.

 

It's clear we are lacking physically though, especially without Bertrand offering a bit more pace out wide and Hojbjerg's energy. We just don't seem strong enough to see out 90ins without conceding. One at Cardiff, two v Arsenal, one at Hudd and two today. We will score enough goals, just about, but we need to pick up some clean sheets.

 

We need to get through the next couple of weeks and try to put a run together in Jan / Feb. Hopefully Ralph is getting a clear idea of our weaknesses.

[Katalinic]

We did, apart from the first five minutes I thought we were second best, never really troubled them, never found any space, gave the ball away a lot, and lost out in most 50/50's. Le Tissier was saying pre-match how he had watched us training in the week and never seen that level of intensity in training before. I think it may have caught up with us.

 

Agree with that - we looked unfit under Hughes so clearly it will take some time to get the players up to the right levels especially with games coming thick and fast.

[LaptopSaint]

The better team won today, no doubt about that. They were far more composed and better with the ball than us. Anderson, Rice and Cresswell being the stand out players for them. I think Valery and Targett definitely showed their inexperience today and West-ham exploited that perfectly.

 

There was a clear foul in the box on Bednarek leading to their counter attack from our corner, but that shouldn’t be an excuse for the way we were set up to defend that. It was poor.

 

The refereeing was awful today though, the clear penalty and then those awful tackles on Romeu from Carrol just seconds of him coming onto the pitch. Both worthy of yellows with the second even maybe a straight red. Then again our goal was a hand ball?

 

We looked like we missed PEH today, his forward passing and distribution just wasn’t replaced by Lemina who I thought was very poor today. He looked like he needed game time, as he just didn’t catch up with the game. Bad decision making, poor passing and composure. At times he just held onto the ball too long.

 

Best highlights for us was Ings looking bright (questionable substitution). Stuart Armstrong with some decent efforts and movement on the ball and then Vestergaard looking solid.

Agree with everything he said.

[ally_uk]

Bad day at the office today this is football it happens. No need to overreact like some of the moist tarts on here....

 

Squad looked a bit knackered probably still adjusting to increased intensity of training under Ralph.

 

Give Ralph a fair crack of the whip and get behind the team! Exciting times ahead

[del boy]

The better team won today, no doubt about that. They were far more composed and better with the ball than us. Anderson, Rice and Cresswell being the stand out players for them. I think Valery and Targett definitely showed their inexperience today and West-ham exploited that perfectly.

 

There was a clear foul in the box on Bednarek leading to their counter attack from our corner, but that shouldn’t be an excuse for the way we were set up to defend that. It was poor.

 

The refereeing was awful today though, the clear penalty and then those awful tackles on Romeu from Carrol just seconds of him coming onto the pitch. Both worthy of yellows with the second even maybe a straight red. Then again our goal was a hand ball?

 

We looked like we missed PEH today, his forward passing and distribution just wasn’t replaced by Lemina who I thought was very poor today. He looked like he needed game time, as he just didn’t catch up with the game. Bad decision making, poor passing and composure. At times he just held onto the ball too long.

 

Best highlights for us was Ings looking bright (questionable substitution). Stuart Armstrong with some decent efforts and movement on the ball and then Vestergaard looking solid.

Sums it up perfectly for me - spot on!

[jamesfp1]

It feels as if they just expected to win given recent results. Quick little reality check and on to two horrific fixtures to come..

 

Proper relegation scrap after those two.

[Heisenberg]

The new manager bounce was great and much needed.

 

But tonight was a reality check and a reminder of the complete **** up Les Reed made us.

[Forester]

It's certainly not an excuse but perhaps an explanation. The fixtures come thick and fast at this time of year, and on top of that the players have seen more training, higher-intensity training, and higher-intensity playing tactics.

 

There were signs of not only physical fatigue tonight, but also mental fatigue - players who now have to think about what they're doing rather than play by instinct.

 

We'll be much better for this in the long run, but pulling this club out of its self-created hole is going to be a work in progress for some time.

Yep I said the same on the way back to the car. When you come in during December and attempt to turn a team into a high tempo outfit you really don’t want lots of fixtures in a short time. We looked well short in fitness terms today. Would make quite a few changes for the City game. Fitness permitting I would go with Long and Obafemi up front as I think raw pace is the way to go against them.

 

Tonight I thought the back three again did ok, we seem to have got out of the awful defensive individual errors which is encouraging. Targett put some brilliant crosses in, but then dropped some real howlers. Think Pellegrini showed his tactical nous tonight despite having lots of absentees. Ings looked shattered and we thought he should have been subbed at half time. Amazed to hear some questioning why he came off at all.

[doddisalegend]

Big old wake up call Ralph isn't a miracle worker after all.

 

Generally we just looked jaded and tired the pressing seemed to tail off after about 15 minutes and the players just seemed to be slow to move the ball and made bad decisions all night, passing was very poor all over the pitch. To concede from your own corner is ****ing criminal.

 

Worse two players on the pitch where Targett and Valery we got done down the flanks, due to a lack of pace from both of them, all game and they offer next to nothing going forward. Cedric and Bertrand have been poor this season but are still light years ahead of these two.

 

I thought Romeu is starting to look like his old self and Vestergaard looked a bit better. Redmond, Ings, Lemina and Armstrong all looked poor tonight.

 

Ref was abysmal though gave very little to either side and when he did make decisions they where mostly wrong. How Andy Carroll constantly gets away with the ****e he pulls I have no idea.

[Saint Fen]

The better team won today, no doubt about that. They were far more composed and better with the ball than us. Anderson, Rice and Cresswell being the stand out players for them. I think Valery and Targett definitely showed their inexperience today and West-ham exploited that perfectly.

 

There was a clear foul in the box on Bednarek leading to their counter attack from our corner, but that shouldn’t be an excuse for the way we were set up to defend that. It was poor.

 

The refereeing was awful today though, the clear penalty and then those awful tackles on Romeu from Carrol just seconds of him coming onto the pitch. Both worthy of yellows with the second even maybe a straight red. Then again our goal was a hand ball?

 

We looked like we missed PEH today, his forward passing and distribution just wasn’t replaced by Lemina who I thought was very poor today. He looked like he needed game time, as he just didn’t catch up with the game. Bad decision making, poor passing and composure. At times he just held onto the ball too long.

 

Best highlights for us was Ings looking bright (questionable substitution). Stuart Armstrong with some decent efforts and movement on the ball and then Vestergaard looking solid.

 

Totally agree, thought our wing backs were poor, Valey doesn’t really want the ball enough, doesn’t take the throw ins which I find strange for a right back but he is young and will hopefully gain more confidence.

 

Lemina is really overrated he isn’t suitable for the Hasenhuttl style as he slows the ball down to often and gives it away when passing forwards (which is pretty ironic given the song!) and isn’t energetic enough

 

We definitely lack any sort of pace apart from Redmond and Ings.

 

I’m not convinced on McCarthy but that is probably being a bit too harsh.

[Maggie May]

I think Ralph has done great so far and I've got confidence that we will be fine this season, although in the short term, we may drop back into bottom 3 with our upcoming games.

 

But I do think he made a mistake today playing Valery up against Andersson who was always going to be the main threat. He subbed him in the Huddersfield game and I thought it was quite likely he would be exposed in this one against better opposition. What we don't really know is what is going on with Cedric. It seems he is fit so possibly a move is being lined up? Otherwise can't understand why we haven't seen him in the squad in last couple of games.

 

If Cedric does go, this game reinforces that we really need to sign at least one quality right back, possibly 2.

 

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He was in a box tonight.

[nta786]

Back home at my brothers now- have to say very disappointing, we did deserve to lose because really they had the better chances and Perez should certainly have scored first half.

We were just not on it today, looked so tired and were playing so deep- players like Ings and Redmond seems to be picking the ball up deep in our area and would just end up losing it on the half way line again- Weat Ham despite their injury list and the fact they had 6 subs didn’t hinder them at all- they were all defending as a pack and busting a gut to make forward runs too.

It is telling that Redmond also says that they felt a bit leggy apparently.

 

Only player I can give credit too today was Vestergaard... the rest all either had lapses in concentration or were passengers.

Fabianski was excellent for them, don’t think McCarthy could save some of the ones he did. Rice, Cresswell and Anderson standout performers too.

 

However, referee had 3 major calls amd got them all wrong- our goal should not have counted sdmittedly, but their 2nd should not have either and alternatively it could have been 1-1. Andy Caroll should have seen a card or even 2 minimum.

 

Despite that, credit West Ham, Pellegrini tactically won todays battle by exploiting our weaknesses and on paper deserved to win

 

but tbh in a way maybe this can be a short term loss for a long term gain, I hope we don’t get hit on the break from our corner like that again- and whilst today was 1 step back, at least Ralph can assess the deficiencies we do have to make 2 steps forward in the near future.

[Red]

Deffo bad day at the office. Not sure what happened to be honest - had Red scored early doors it might have been a different result, but even when we went ahead via a very iffy goal we did not look confident.

 

We did not have the same energy - lot of the players were exhausted in the final 30 mins - Targett had cramp early 2nd half. Big Mac had his worst game I have seen. Certainly not the better team - hopefully they can put it behind them and maybe get a draw next game?

[hasper57saint]

I said before the game our only danger was the Thug elbowing and wrestling and what a great surprise. Thug acts nasty twice in the first minute he came on and the nailed on 'wrestled' penalty ignored by a Referee who in the previous nine occasions he handled a Wet Spam game they didn't lose. The better team won ably assisted by the officials. How the Thug wasn't sent off eludes me. Targett got booked and the Thug just carried on. It's not the end of the world but we really did miss PJH tonight.

[captainchris]

The most pathetic attempted defence of a troll by another. Or probably the original poster under a different login.

 

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One can only assume you are about ten .... In your defence.

[Chez]

the amount of yards Romeu and Lemina had to cover throughout the night to try and retrieve the ball after we had given it away cost us in the end. Just prior to their first goal, Romeu was like a dog chasing three rabbits down the right hand side, when the ball was worked forward by West Ham he got goal side, but he was too tired to race out to close Anderson on the edge of the box. He was the closest man and with time Anderson could pick his spot. You might say the same about the second. Yet again we are caught form our own corner, but 5 on 1 suggests at least one of our centre midfielders wasn't doing enough to chase back, probably because they were tired.

 

The second goal ranks right up there with amongst the worst goals we have ever conceded. How on earth do you end up five on one?

 

Can't fault the effort by the way. Not sure five at the back did us any favours in the end. Boy do we have a lack of flair to bring off the bench. A dogged runner in Long and a goal hanger in Austin doesn't exactly represent a change of pace. Need to invest in another dribbler that can help ease the burden on Redmond.

Edited 27 December, 2018 by Chez

[Saint86]

I think Les Reed's poor spending decisions showed through as the difference tonight.

 

That and the ref was a fecking bent bell end.

[striker]

IMO the big difference was the pace we played at. We looked tired, and rather than quickly attacking like in the previous matches we started with the old "passing back" stuff again. Ralph said as much in his presser. He said we were giving the WHU time to organize by slowing it down. My only issue with Ralph today was he should have rotated the squad. Guys like Stephens, Long, Austin, Davis, Cedric, and JWP could all have contributed and been fresh.

 

As an aside I still am not sold on our wings. Targett and Valery are ok, but I just think they make a lot of mistakes. I'd much prefer Cedric and Bertrand out there, plus they would give us more pace.

[Ludwig]

He was in a box tonight.

RIP

[Lighthouse]

IMO the big difference was the pace we played at. We looked tired, and rather than quickly attacking like in the previous matches we started with the old "passing back" stuff again. Ralph said as much in his presser. He said we were giving the WHU time to organize by slowing it down. My only issue with Ralph today was he should have rotated the squad. Guys like Stephens, Long, Austin, Davis, Cedric, and JWP could all have contributed and been fresh.

 

As an aside I still am not sold on our wings. Targett and Valery are ok, but I just think they make a lot of mistakes. I'd much prefer Cedric and Bertrand out there, plus they would give us more pace.

 

Targett and Valery are not okay. Tonight were two of the most un-okay performances of the season.

[vectraman]

Just got in from the game, disappointed to say the least!

We seemed slow all over the pitch tonight, the lack of pace in our side is so clear to see. Lemina - had one of those games where nothing went right for him. The pinnacle of his turdness was a pass in the first half that should have gone wide left to targett, but he under hit it about 20 yards to the right of him. Awful. But players have good and bad games, many of the others didn’t cover themselves in glory either!

Vestergaard I thought played well, Romeu too, albeit he looked a yard off the pace throughout the game? Full backs couldn’t get into the game, Valery never went down the outside, always came inside denying us width. Targett just looks slow. Better as a left midfielder that a wing back maybe?

Ings didn’t get into it, Redmond had no joy all night either. We didn’t create a decent chance all night other than the scrambled goal, which we did our best to try and miss!

Long barely had a touch when he came on, needs to be upfront with another striker, not on his own.

Credit to West Ham, they deserved the win. Their quality signing Anderson was a cut above everyone else, and they looked energetic and quick on the counter.

Not sure about their first goal - from the family stand it looked hard and straight at the near post - both myself and my lad thought it may have been a suspect keeper moment - not seen a tv replay so may be doing McCarthy a disservice there.

Need to recover quickly with City up next, hopefully our performance will be better (even if the outcome isn’t....)