Bad Wolf Posted 5 December, 2018 Share Posted 5 December, 2018 Reineri has never achieved anything. Leicester only won the league because everyone else was crap. In fact, Leicester didn't win the league, non-everyone else did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordic Saint Posted 5 December, 2018 Share Posted 5 December, 2018 Were we in the drop zone when he took over? Seriously can't remember. No, and the funny thing when you look back is that we only lost 2 of Pellegrino's last 8 league games in charge, which included tough games against Liverpool and Spurs, and he'd also just got us through to an easy FA Cup quarter-final v Wigan by beating 3 Premier League teams, whereas we lost 4 of the 8 games under Hughes and got knocked out of the cup. You could certainly argue that what kept us up as much if not more than the 2 wins from 8 games at the end of the season under Hughes were the 3 wins from 9 games at the beginning of the season under Pellegrino. I still believe that if Hughes had taken over earlier in the season, we'd have been relegated. The managers seemed to get progressively worse under Reed: Koeman>Puel>Pellegrino>Hughes. Anyway, that's all water under the bridge now. It makes a very nice change to get a good manager like Hasenhüttl, who is clearly an improvement on the previous one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 No, and the funny thing when you look back is that we only lost 2 of Pellegrino's last 8 league games in charge, which included tough games against Liverpool and Spurs, and he'd also just got us through to an easy FA Cup quarter-final v Wigan by beating 3 Premier League teams, whereas we lost 4 of the 8 games under Hughes and got knocked out of the cup. You could certainly argue that what kept us up as much if not more than the 2 wins from 8 games at the end of the season under Hughes were the 3 wins from 9 games at the beginning of the season under Pellegrino. I still believe that if Hughes had taken over earlier in the season, we'd have been relegated. The managers seemed to get progressively worse under Reed: Koeman>Puel>Pellegrino>Hughes. Anyway, that's all water under the bridge now. It makes a very nice change to get a good manager like Hasenhüttl, who is clearly an improvement on the previous one. West Ham United A loss AFC Bournemouth H win Leicester City A draw Chelsea H loss Arsenal A loss Everton A draw Swansea City A Win Manchester City H Loss Apart from the West Ham game I'm not sure you could expect much better results - where do you think Hughes should have done better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 (edited) You are ignoring the fact that we had a run in from hell. Hughes has one bad result last season and that was his first game in charge. Was it a harder run of games than the previous 8 of Pell though? Hughes: West Ham 3 - 0 Southampton Arsenal 3 - 2 Southampton Southampton 2 - 3 Chelsea Leicester 0 - 0 Southampton Southampton 2 - 1 Bournemouth Everton 1 - 1 Southampton Swansea 0 - 1 Southampton Southampton 0 - 1 Man City Points per game - 1 Goals per game - 1 Goals conceded per game - 1.50 Avg Finishing Team position - 9 Pellegrino: Watford 2 - 2 Southampton Southampton 1 - 1 Tottenham Southampton 1 - 1 Brighton West Brom 2 - 3 Southampton Southampton 0 - 2 Liverpool Burnley 1 - 1 Southampton Southampton 0 - 0 Stoke Newcastle 3 - 0 Southampton Points per game - 1 Goals per game - 1 Goals conceded per game - 1.50 Avg Finishing Team position - 11.5 So it works out at same points per game, same goals scored, same conceded, and only very slightly harder games...I'm not seeing this big improvement, and with such fine margins I'm not sure if Pell couldn't have continued what he was doing and kept us up. Edited 6 December, 2018 by Unbelievable Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nta786 Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 Was it a harder run of games than the previous 8 of Pell though? Hughes: West Ham 3 - 0 Southampton Arsenal 3 - 2 Southampton Southampton 2 - 3 Chelsea Leicester 0 - 0 Southampton Southampton 2 - 1 Bournemouth Everton 1 - 1 Southampton Swansea 0 - 1 Southampton Southampton 0 - 1 Man City Points per game - 1 Goals per game - 1 Goals conceded per game - 1.50 Avg Finishing Team position - 9 Pellegrino: Watford 2 - 2 Southampton Southampton 1 - 1 Tottenham Southampton 1 - 1 Brighton West Brom 2 - 3 Southampton Southampton 0 - 2 Liverpool Burnley 1 - 1 Southampton Southampton 0 - 0 Stoke Newcastle 3 - 0 Southampton Points per game - 1 Goals per game - 1 Goals conceded per game - 1.50 Avg Finishing Team position - 11.5 So it works out at same points per game, same goals scored, same conceded, and only very slightly harder games...I'm not seeing this big improvement, and with such fine margins I'm not sure if Pell couldn't have continued what he was doing and kept us up. maybe... but I do think that 3-0 defeat to Newcastle took the stuffing out of us... something had to give and it was Pellegrino of course. Honestly, under Pellegrino I don't think we would have won anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamplemousse Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 People can rewrite history as they want, the fact is we only needed to win two games, two absolutely massive games, in particular that Swansea away game, and we did just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 Was it a harder run of games than the previous 8 of Pell though? Hughes: West Ham 3 - 0 Southampton Arsenal 3 - 2 Southampton Southampton 2 - 3 Chelsea Leicester 0 - 0 Southampton Southampton 2 - 1 Bournemouth Everton 1 - 1 Southampton Swansea 0 - 1 Southampton Southampton 0 - 1 Man City Points per game - 1 Goals per game - 1 Goals conceded per game - 1.50 Avg Finishing Team position - 9 Pellegrino: Watford 2 - 2 Southampton Southampton 1 - 1 Tottenham Southampton 1 - 1 Brighton West Brom 2 - 3 Southampton Southampton 0 - 2 Liverpool Burnley 1 - 1 Southampton Southampton 0 - 0 Stoke Newcastle 3 - 0 Southampton Points per game - 1 Goals per game - 1 Goals conceded per game - 1.50 Avg Finishing Team position - 11.5 So it works out at same points per game, same goals scored, same conceded, and only very slightly harder games...I'm not seeing this big improvement, and with such fine margins I'm not sure if Pell couldn't have continued what he was doing and kept us up. I woul£ say Hughes fixtures were harder so yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 But that's all theoretical. We have no idea what Pellegrino would have done in this last games. Indeed. That is my point. Hughes' appointment may have got us more points than sticking with Pellegrino; or it might not have done... The point is, we can't rule out the hypothesis that Hughes kept us up. Unless I'm mistaken, you seem to be ruling out this eventuality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 I don't think someone who took us from 8th to 17th would deserve any credit for keeping us up.Indeed. Which is why I caveated my point with: "taking those remaining games in isolation" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 maybe... but I do think that 3-0 defeat to Newcastle took the stuffing out of us... something had to give and it was Pellegrino of course. Honestly, under Pellegrino I don't think we would have won anymore. He should have been sacked, he was ****ing awful. Hughes didn't save us IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 Indeed. That is my point. Hughes' appointment may have got us more points than sticking with Pellegrino; or it might not have done... The point is, we can't rule out the hypothesis that Hughes kept us up. Unless I'm mistaken, you seem to be ruling out this eventuality? No - I said the only thing that we can definitely say is that he finished in the same position, so the logical thing to say is he did not improve us in any way. We did look better attacking wise though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 I woul£ say Hughes fixtures were harder so yes. Yes, what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 People can rewrite history as they want, the fact is we only needed to win two games, two absolutely massive games, in particular that Swansea away game, and we did just that. What history has been rewritten? The results above are fact!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGalpin Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 But that's all theoretical. We have no idea what Pellegrino would have done in this last games. We can only really work in actuals, and the actuals say he had no effect. Again pure guesswork, but fairly confident Pellegrino wouldn't have stuck on Gabbiadini when Bednarek got injured against Swansea. Small moment but ultimately played a huge part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 Yes, what? Hughes had a harder run of games, we had one winnable home game in his run-in, he did well to keep us up. Or do you expect us to be beating Everton away now, or turning Man City over? ****ing dickhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 Hughes had a harder run of games, we had one winnable home game in his run-in, he did well to keep us up. Or do you expect us to be beating Everton away now, or turning Man City over? ****ing dickhead. West Ham away, Swansea away (Swansea managed 3 points from their last 9 games), Bournemouth home were all winnable games. Considering we are better away from home than at home I wouldn't say having winnable home games is what we should be looking at. Also, no need for the insults pal, you don't look hard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 If I recall correctly, Hughes was our actual manager when we actually stayed up ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 6 December, 2018 Share Posted 6 December, 2018 West Ham away, Swansea away (Swansea managed 3 points from their last 9 games), Bournemouth home were all winnable games. Considering we are better away from home than at home I wouldn't say having winnable home games is what we should be looking at. Also, no need for the insults pal, you don't look hard! You’re wrong again, we got more points at home than away last season, just like pretty much every other club. That’s because it’s easier to win at home than away - that’s basic stuff. Why don’t you just admit you are talking ********. You’re quoting points per game when Hughes had 5 out of 8 away and two of the three at home were City and Chelsea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 You’re wrong again, we got more points at home than away last season, just like pretty much every other club. That’s because it’s easier to win at home than away - that’s basic stuff. Why don’t you just admit you are talking ********. You’re quoting points per game when Hughes had 5 out of 8 away and two of the three at home were City and Chelsea. I'm wondering why you're getting so angry at this - you definitely seem to have some anger issues that you'd be best served to get sorted away from this forum. Perhaps it would be worth taking a break? As for the debate we're having, I think we just need to agree to disagree, rather than getting our panties in a twist, don't you? The points and statistics that have been put across, and that you've put across do not show any clear indication that Hughes made much of a difference to our form from Pellegrino. Instead of just getting angry, why don't you lay out in clear points, with statistics to back it up, why you think we were so much better under Hughes. I ask this because the statistics don't show it. I will admit we did look better going forward under Hughes, even though we scored the same goals per game as the previous 8 games under Pellegrino (which was Pellegrino's worst 8 game run of the season). And sorry, 19 points at home to 17 away - we were obviously dominant at home so I am clearly wrong there, and luckily we've continued that good form this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secret Site Agent Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 He should have been sacked, he was ****ing awful. Hughes didn't save us IMHO. Sorry to pick on you Jeff, this is for those as well with a similar mind. 1) We didn't get relegated. So he must have done something 2) His job was to save us from relegation. We were saved from it. 3) You can't judge his tenure this season with what he did last. I'm sorry but if you employ someone to finish putting up a fence before the winds come, and it stands, they have done their job If you then employ them to put up another fence somewhere else, and it blows down, you cant say they didn't finish and save the first fence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 It's interesting after being away for a while to come back to read some of this debate. I did think Hughes was the right appointment at the time, although the Pellegrino sacking had been left far too late but in my opinion it is a myth that Hughes saved us from relegation. Almost anyone who wasn't MP could have done the same. As others have said, I believe we were fortunate that a couple of other teams were even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALWAYS_SFC Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 Sorry to pick on you Jeff, this is for those as well with a similar mind. 1) We didn't get relegated. So he must have done something 2) His job was to save us from relegation. We were saved from it. 3) You can't judge his tenure this season with what he did last. I'm sorry but if you employ someone to finish putting up a fence before the winds come, and it stands, they have done their job If you then employ them to put up another fence somewhere else, and it blows down, you cant say they didn't finish and save the first fence. This is correct SSA but he has anger issues regarding Hughes and cant let go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 Sorry to pick on you Jeff, this is for those as well with a similar mind. 1) We didn't get relegated. So he must have done something 2) His job was to save us from relegation. We were saved from it. 3) You can't judge his tenure this season with what he did last. I'm sorry but if you employ someone to finish putting up a fence before the winds come, and it stands, they have done their job If you then employ them to put up another fence somewhere else, and it blows down, you cant say they didn't finish and save the first fence. I think your analogy is slightly incorrect. The fence was on its last legs, and the winds were coming. Hughes worked on the fence for 3 months, but looking at the fence it looked the same. The winds came and went, and the fence was still standing. There is no doubt whatsoever that Hughes was Manager when we stayed up - I've never denied that - however, I still don't think what he did kept us up. It was more that Swansea got 3 points from their last 9 games. If they had just matched Pellegrino's total from the previous 8 games, they'd have stayed up at our expense, and they had a decent run in as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 This is correct SSA but he has anger issues regarding Hughes and cant let go... You still here pal? I'd have thought with all the embarrassment on the other threads that you'd be keeping a low profile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 I think your analogy is slightly incorrect. The fence was on its last legs, and the winds were coming. Hughes worked on the fence for 3 months, but looking at the fence it looked the same. The winds came and went, and the fence was still standing. There is no doubt whatsoever that Hughes was Manager when we stayed up - I've never denied that - however, I still don't think what he did kept us up. It was more that Swansea got 3 points from their last 9 games. If they had just matched Pellegrino's total from the previous 8 games, they'd have stayed up at our expense, and they had a decent run in as well. Did you actually go to any of the games? Even my 6 year old nephew noticed we were playing better under Hughes that Pellegrino last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 Did you actually go to any of the games? Even my 6 year old nephew noticed we were playing better under Hughes that Pellegrino last season. I'm wondering why you're getting so angry at this - you definitely seem to have some anger issues that you'd be best served to get sorted away from this forum. Perhaps it would be worth taking a break? As for the debate we're having, I think we just need to agree to disagree, rather than getting our panties in a twist, don't you? The points and statistics that have been put across, and that you've put across do not show any clear indication that Hughes made much of a difference to our form from Pellegrino. Instead of just getting angry, why don't you lay out in clear points, with statistics to back it up, why you think we were so much better under Hughes. I ask this because the statistics don't show it. I will admit we did look better going forward under Hughes, even though we scored the same goals per game as the previous 8 games under Pellegrino (which was Pellegrino's worst 8 game run of the season). And sorry, 19 points at home to 17 away - we were obviously dominant at home so I am clearly wrong there, and luckily we've continued that good form this year. I assume your reading ain't up to much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfahaji Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 It's interesting after being away for a while to come back to read some of this debate. I did think Hughes was the right appointment at the time, although the Pellegrino sacking had been left far too late but in my opinion it is a myth that Hughes saved us from relegation. Almost anyone who wasn't MP could have done the same. As others have said, I believe we were fortunate that a couple of other teams were even worse. Probably true - but Hughes happened to be the person available at short notice who came in and did that. Jeff is claiming that even Pellegrino would have kept us up. There's no way to disprove that theory of course, but I'm surprised anyone who watched the matches didn't notice a change in attitude from the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 Does it really matter who was worse, they both were crap. The Clown was a clueless disaster, and Sparky was incompetent and lazy (allegedly not getting involved with training). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfahaji Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 Does it really matter who was worse, they both were crap. The Clown was a clueless disaster, and Sparky was incompetent and lazy (allegedly not getting involved with training). Doesn't necessarily equate with laziness - plenty of managers let their coaches do most of the work on the training ground. However, I think it's fair to say that Hughes has never been regarded as a master tactician, so in his case it begs the question of what he actually did/does. Probably explains why in the short term he was able to motivate the players but after a while it wore off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 but I'm surprised anyone who watched the matches didn't notice a change in attitude from the players. Nothing on the mongboard surprises me anymore, especially the tendency for certain idiots to be deliberately obtuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 No - I said the only thing that we can definitely say is that he finished in the same position, so the logical thing to say is he did not improve us in any way. I would say that's an illogical conclusion. Disagreeing with someone is OK though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 Nothing on the mongboard surprises me anymore, especially the tendency for certain idiots to be deliberately obtuse. Please don't use that word, it's incredibly offensive to those that are related to people with mental difficulties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsland Red Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 In response to the OP, whilst agreeing Pellegrino was the problem, we had to have someone to immediately get a focus to stay up. Hughes had the respect and organisation to do this, albeit Swansea falling to pieces helped our cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 7 December, 2018 Share Posted 7 December, 2018 I would say that's an illogical conclusion. Disagreeing with someone is OK though Indeed it is!! Others seem to think not, but they'll grow up someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Without a Halo Posted 8 December, 2018 Share Posted 8 December, 2018 Whatever other criticisms are thrown at Hughes you have to acknowledge that he was able to unlock Tadic's ability and belief in the run in. i can't believe anyone would deny that. Yes he promised him play well and you can go end of the season it worked! Problem then was his replacement didnt work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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