Treatment of Leaders within the squad

[Dusic]

IMO current treatment of Maya Yoshida and Steven Davis is pretty poor from the club - especially given current struggles.

 

Both are model pros, leaders for their country and have been great servants at Saints.

 

Seems like Davis is being phased out but IMO he still has a role even if from the bench.

 

Yoshida even more bizarre and its actually a bit off how he has been treated. He is extremely well liked by teammates.

 

Could equally add Forster, put in a very difficult position by the club. Fair enough he wasnt playing well but he doesn't deserve this.

 

Not a good way to treat senior pros and won't have gone unnoticed by others within the squad.

[benjii]

I think it's odd that Forster hasn't even been on the bench for league cup games. Something behind the scenes?

 

The Yoshi thing smacks of us trying to force him into accepting a move before his sale value is negligible.

 

Davis, I get your point, but he doesn't really fit Hughes' cuttong-edge 442 philosophy and he was cack last season.

[Noodles34]

Forster is on what, 70k per week. Deservedly dropped and won't move on loan to whole host of clubs that want him, why do you think he has been frozen out completely? If he had anything about him he would have moved to prove his doubters wrong but money came first cause he needs every penny of that wage he is on. No sympathy whatsoever.

Davis andnYoshida are not really good enough but then the players in the first team are not either, to be fair, I'd rather have Yoshi and SD over Hoedt and Rom.

[Suhari]

Forster is on what, 70k per week. Deservedly dropped and won't move on loan to whole host of clubs that want him, why do you think he has been frozen out completely? If he had anything about him he would have moved to prove his doubters wrong but money came first cause he needs every penny of that wage he is on. No sympathy whatsoever.

Davis andnYoshida are not really good enough but then the players in the first team are not either, to be fair, I'd rather have Yoshi and SD over Hoedt and Rom.

 

 

Why does Forster need every penny?

[Heisenberg]

Yoshida is very average. Always has been always will be. He's been a squad player only under 6 managers for a reason.

 

Davis is slow and hasn't really impressed when given a chance.

 

Need to look forward not back

[Noodles34]

Why does Forster need every penny?

 

Its called sarcasm mate.

[Noodles34]

Yoshida is very average. Always has been always will be. He's been a squad player only under 6 managers for a reason.

 

Davis is slow and hasn't really impressed when given a chance.

 

Need to look forward not back

 

that's working out well

[Suhari]

Its called sarcasm mate.

 

Ahhh.

 

See, my brain went immediately to thoughts of drug issues or gambling problems, which could also have an impact on his mindset/form. Perhaps I'm too much of a cynic!

[Saint Billy]

IMO current treatment of Maya Yoshida and Steven Davis is pretty poor from the club - especially given current struggles.

 

Both are model pros, leaders for their country and have been great servants at Saints.

 

Seems like Davis is being phased out but IMO he still has a role even if from the bench.

 

Yoshida even more bizarre and its actually a bit off how he has been treated. He is extremely well liked by teammates.

 

Could equally add Forster, put in a very difficult position by the club. Fair enough he wasnt playing well but he doesn't deserve this.

 

Not a good way to treat senior pros and won't have gone unnoticed by others within the squad.

 

Personally I wouldn't refer to the players you have mentioned as leaders, loyal servants maybe but not leaders. If they no longer add anything different to the squad what's the point in playing them.

 

As for leaders, Hojbjerg is the only one in my opinion that comes close to a leader.

[doddisalegend]

IMO current treatment of Maya Yoshida and Steven Davis is pretty poor from the club - especially given current struggles.

 

Both are model pros, leaders for their country and have been great servants at Saints.

 

Seems like Davis is being phased out but IMO he still has a role even if from the bench.

 

Yoshida even more bizarre and its actually a bit off how he has been treated. He is extremely well liked by teammates.

 

Could equally add Forster, put in a very difficult position by the club. Fair enough he wasnt playing well but he doesn't deserve this.

 

Not a good way to treat senior pros and won't have gone unnoticed by others within the squad.

 

I think more of an issue is Yoshida and Davis are the leaders in the squad. I have a lot time for both of them as players both have contributed to the club over their years here. Neither of them seem to have offered much leadership when on the pitch certainly no better than Bertrand. That was the main loss with Fonte, his legs where going and he was passed his best, but he was an experienced leader and on pitch organiser that we really haven't had since he left.

[Dusic]

Forster is on what, 70k per week. Deservedly dropped and won't move on loan to whole host of clubs that want him, why do you think he has been frozen out completely? If he had anything about him he would have moved to prove his doubters wrong but money came first cause he needs every penny of that wage he is on. No sympathy whatsoever.

Davis andnYoshida are not really good enough but then the players in the first team are not either, to be fair, I'd rather have Yoshi and SD over Hoedt and Rom.

Who were the host of clubs that wanted Forster? Some options in a madhouse like Turkey? What if he wants to live in the UK?

 

He signed a 5 year contract a year beforehand on a certain wage which probably prohibts him from moving, but Saints were perfectly happy to pay him that at the time so you can't just let his career rot because he wasn't playing well.

 

Just think its not how you treat a senior pro, especially for a club that according to Ralph says it differentiates itself on how we treat people.

[Dr. Kucho]

Didn’t one of the reliable ITK members post a while back a cryptic message that something was going on behind the scene regards to Yoshida not playing? And didn’t another, or maybe the same, ITK member say that certain players that had been playing up under Puel and Pellegrino continue to do so?

 

All sounds like something is going on and we don’t have a leader, like Cortese, who doesn’t tolerate this sh!t and sorts it out.

 

(I am not ITK, have never been and all info came from this message board).

[doddisalegend]

Who were the host of clubs that wanted Forster? Some options in a madhouse like Turkey? What if he wants to live in the UK?

 

He signed a 5 year contract a year beforehand on a certain wage which probably prohibts him from moving, but Saints were perfectly happy to pay him that at the time so you can't just let his career rot because he wasn't playing well.

 

Just think its not how you treat a senior pro, especially for a club that according to Ralph says it differentiates itself on how we treat people.

 

What would you like the club to do with Forster? I don't want to see him anywhere near the first team both our current keepers are much better. Forster had the choice. Sit there and take his large pay packet or take a wage cut to find a club that would let him play football.

[Noodles34]

Who were the host of clubs that wanted Forster? Some options in a madhouse like Turkey? What if he wants to live in the UK?

 

He signed a 5 year contract a year beforehand on a certain wage which probably prohibts him from moving, but Saints were perfectly happy to pay him that at the time so you can't just let his career rot because he wasn't playing well.

 

Just think its not how you treat a senior pro, especially for a club that according to Ralph says it differentiates itself on how we treat people.

 

there were plenty in the UK mate, trust me in that. Not to the PL level perhaps but options nonetheless.

 

Im afraid you have lost a lot of credibility when you start quoting Wreck It Ralph.

[Topcat]

Part of the problem is the failure by Reed to move on aging players such as Davis. Add to that the failure by Reed to move on players such as Forster that have no future at Saints as soon as his replacement proved to be better. Each summer is the time to move on players that are coming towards the end of their Premiership careers and Saints, under Reed, are too slow at doing this. It is similar to the last time we were relegated from the premiership when we had an aging squad of players that were past their best.

[doddisalegend]

Part of the problem is the failure by Reed to move on aging players such as Davis. Add to that the failure by Reed to move on players such as Forster that have no future at Saints as soon as his replacement proved to be better. Each summer is the time to move on players that are coming towards the end of their Premiership careers and Saints, under Reed, are too slow at doing this. It is similar to the last time we were relegated from the premiership when we had an aging squad of players that were past their best.

 

 

I'm not sure it's that easy to move on aging players with contracts unless they can find a better deal elsewhere. At that point in their career, with retirement looming, most of them are happy to see out there contracts for a bit more cash rather than play.

[Dusic]

there were plenty in the UK mate, trust me in that. Not to the PL level perhaps but options nonetheless.

 

Im afraid you have lost a lot of credibility when you start quoting Wreck It Ralph.

Which teams were those then, seeing as you appear to know?

 

So basically we were expecting Forster to very quickly decide to:

 

a.) Take a pay cut

b.) Move to a Championship club

 

Not exactly good treatment of a player we deemed worthy of a new 5 year contract 12 months before to presumably stop him moving elsewhere.

 

As for the Ralph quote, he and the club are the ones that lose credibility as they are not doing as they say.

[JustMike]

Personally I wouldn't refer to the players you have mentioned as leaders, loyal servants maybe but not leaders. If they no longer add anything different to the squad what's the point in playing them.

 

As for leaders, Hojbjerg is the only one in my opinion that comes close to a leader.

 

This! We haven't had a leader since Fonte left

[Lord Duckhunter]

I love Davo, one of our best ever value for money buys & a fantastic pro. However, he’s over the hill and is deservedly not playing. Maya, probably deserves a start, but I can see why Hughes doesn’t rate him. A lot of pundits don’t rate him, and to be fair he’s not any better than we have. There’s no big conspiracy in either case.

 

 

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[Lord Duckhunter]

Ask any Stoke fan what happened when Wheelan and Walters were frozen out....

 

So you think Davo is “frozen out”. Who should he replace , Lemina, PEH?

 

 

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Edited 30 October, 2018 by Lord Duckhunter

[Noodles34]

Which teams were those then, seeing as you appear to know?

 

So basically we were expecting Forster to very quickly decide to:

 

a.) Take a pay cut

b.) Move to a Championship club

 

Not exactly good treatment of a player we deemed worthy of a new 5 year contract 12 months before to presumably stop him moving elsewhere.

 

As for the Ralph quote, he and the club are the ones that lose credibility as they are not doing as they say.

 

mate, you seem to have confused FF with Matt Le Tissier or Rickie Lambert, this is one of the worse goalkeepers that we have had, that we are talking about.

 

In answer to to your questions, I don't know the clubs but I do know that there were plenty that he turned down, here and abroad.

A) YES

b) YES

 

thats if he had anything about him. Would you struggle to take a pay cut from say 70 to 40k per week, PER WEEK!!

Come on, are you for real?

besides if he went on loan then he wouldn't even take a cut anyway but even then he still wouldn't go.

The bloke is a parasite and the worse kind of player, doesn't care about playing football, just thinks what an easy life picking up the money for doing nowt.

 

And yes, you are correct, it is that idiot or idiots in charge that gave him the money. But you know why do you? Because they were just trying to hike up the sale value and it's massively backfired because he's crap. I saw it for the first time when he let Willian's goal in at the bridge back three years ago in a 1-1 draw, failed to get off his line and let's be honest, the likes of Lovren, Fonte, Toby, VVD, Victor and Spider-Man have been massive protection. Once they went he was exposed for the bang average keeper that he is.

[Bad Wolf]

Steven Davis - The most overrated "underrated" player in history.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Steven Davis - The most overrated "underrated" player in history.

 

Pony

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dusic]

mate, you seem to have confused FF with Matt Le Tissier or Rickie Lambert, this is one of the worse goalkeepers that we have had, that we are talking about.

 

In answer to to your questions, I don't know the clubs but I do know that there were plenty that he turned down, here and abroad.

A) YES

b) YES

 

thats if he had anything about him. Would you struggle to take a pay cut from say 70 to 40k per week, PER WEEK!!

Come on, are you for real?

besides if he went on loan then he wouldn't even take a cut anyway but even then he still wouldn't go.

The bloke is a parasite and the worse kind of player, doesn't care about playing football, just thinks what an easy life picking up the money for doing nowt.

 

And yes, you are correct, it is that idiot or idiots in charge that gave him the money. But you know why do you? Because they were just trying to hike up the sale value and it's massively backfired because he's crap. I saw it for the first time when he let Willian's goal in at the bridge back three years ago in a 1-1 draw, failed to get off his line and let's be honest, the likes of Lovren, Fonte, Toby, VVD, Victor and Spider-Man have been massive protection. Once they went he was exposed for the bang average keeper that he is.

So, just to check:

 

1. Forster is one of the worst goalkeepers we have ever had?

 

2. You expect him to sign a new 5 year contract and then a year later agree to almost halving his pay?

[Noodles34]

So, just to check:

 

1. Forster is one of the worst goalkeepers we have ever had?

 

2. You expect him to sign a new 5 year contract and then a year later agree to almost halving his pay?

 

1. Definitely, err, Ian Andrews and I dunno, paul jones maybe are worse. Gazza was obviously at the time but he was only back up keeper. Let me know the long list of worse keepers that you have in mind.

 

2. As I said Dusic, if he went on loan then maybe he would have been on full whack anyway. Or, as is the scurge of modern day football, a player thinks that he really needs 70k per week to live and 35/40 will push him below the breadline.

 

He is losing any opportunity of resurrecting his career by disappearing into nomansland at SFC. The writing was on the wall when we signed Gunn and instead of doing a Joe hart, he has done a Winston Bogarde.

[niceandfriendly]

Yoshida may be "very average" but he's clearly our best CB at this point. Regardless of what that says about the state of our CBs, it's true.

[Dusic]

1. Definitely, err, Ian Andrews and I dunno, paul jones maybe are worse. Gazza was obviously at the time but he was only back up keeper. Let me know the long list of worse keepers that you have in mind.

 

Well for a start Stekelenburg and Davis were worse for us in the PL and thats just the most recent era of no1s.

[Cabbage_Face]

Forster has never been good, just took a significant drop in our defensive quality to show that to most people.

[Noodles34]

Well for a start Stekelenburg and Davis were worse for us in the PL and thats just the most recent era of no1s.

 

Not sure they were necessarily any worse, maybe not better granted though KD obviously pivotal to our previous success.

[Village Saint]

Not sure they were necessarily any worse, maybe not better granted though KD obviously pivotal to our previous success.

 

Not to mention Hollowbread, Reynolds, Charles, Burridge, Godfrey, MacLaren, Campbell Forsyth, Katalinic, Martin (I am sure I have missed some) who even adding their positives together were not as good as Forster. Because of the odd excellent keeper we have had (Shilton of course but also Flowers and Niemi) it is easy to overlook that for long periods we have had a crap keeper.

[stevegrant]

Part of the problem is the failure by Reed to move on aging players such as Davis. Add to that the failure by Reed to move on players such as Forster that have no future at Saints as soon as his replacement proved to be better. Each summer is the time to move on players that are coming towards the end of their Premiership careers and Saints, under Reed, are too slow at doing this. It is similar to the last time we were relegated from the premiership when we had an aging squad of players that were past their best.

We have either the seventh or eighth biggest wage bill in the league, there's a reason we can't move on the ever-accumulating dross in this squad, and it's not because there aren't teams who would take a chance on them, it's that they'd only take a chance on them at a much lower salary.

 

Rewarding Forster with a new 5-year contract to replace the 5-year contract he only signed a year previously - having just had a distinctly iffy season anyway - will probably go down as one of the club's most expensive mistakes. It'll probably cost the club £12-15m for a player who is now highly unlikely to ever play for us again.

[Noodles34]

Not to mention Hollowbread, Reynolds, Charles, Burridge, Godfrey, MacLaren, Campbell Forsyth, Katalinic, Martin (I am sure I have missed some) who even adding their positives together were not as good as Forster. Because of the odd excellent keeper we have had (Shilton of course but also Flowers and Niemi) it is easy to overlook that for long periods we have had a crap keeper.

 

to be fair, Ray Charles in goal was never going to work out.

[Noodles34]

We have either the seventh or eighth biggest wage bill in the league, there's a reason we can't move on the ever-accumulating dross in this squad, and it's not because there aren't teams who would take a chance on them, it's that they'd only take a chance on them at a much lower salary.

 

Rewarding Forster with a new 5-year contract to replace the 5-year contract he only signed a year previously - having just had a distinctly iffy season anyway - will probably go down as one of the club's most expensive mistakes. It'll probably cost the club £12-15m for a player who is now highly unlikely to ever play for us again.

 

But what's your take on whether he should stay then Steve? As Dusic seems to suggest, he should exercise that right and we are wrong to dismiss his poor attitude to finding a replacement or loan club.

[Roo1976]

1. Definitely, err, Ian Andrews and I dunno, paul jones maybe are worse. Gazza was obviously at the time but he was only back up keeper. Let me know the long list of worse keepers that you have in mind.

 

2. As I said Dusic, if he went on loan then maybe he would have been on full whack anyway. Or, as is the scurge of modern day football, a player thinks that he really needs 70k per week to live and 35/40 will push him below the breadline.

 

He is losing any opportunity of resurrecting his career by disappearing into nomansland at SFC. The writing was on the wall when we signed Gunn and instead of doing a Joe hart, he has done a Winston Bogarde.

 

totally agree with you Noodles............just think of us poor fans on £9 an hour not £70k a week........fook some ppl on here loose sight of reality themselves when they try to justify thier own points of view.So Forsters going to do a

 

Sunderland player springs to mind forgot his name.Refused to play for them anymore but still had a huge contract to supliment his own downfall....another worse keeper ...taylor why?.....

[verlaine1979]

totally agree with you Noodles............just think of us poor fans on £9 an hour not £70k a week........fook some ppl on here loose sight of reality themselves when they try to justify thier own points of view.So Forsters going to do a

 

Sunderland player springs to mind forgot his name.Refused to play for them anymore but still had a huge contract to supliment his own downfall....another worse keeper ...taylor why?.....

 

Eh? There's no reason to believe that if he was picked, Forster wouldn't play for us to the best of his ability. In which case, he's not in breach of his contract. If the club were dumb enough to offer him a bumper 5 year deal when there was already evidence that his form was declining, then the fault rests entirely with them. Regardless of the fact that he earns many multiples more than me per year, I absolutely support Forster's right to see out the contract he signed.

 

If you disagree with that and think it's fine to try and force players to give up their contractual rights, you'd better never breathe a word of dissent when other players under contract try and force through a transfer to a bigger club.

[Noodles34]

don't think anyone is saying what you are saying, not trying or breach of contract....

The actual point is that here is a man with a talent (not enough for this league perhaps) and a relatively short career, who is seemingly happy to do nothing for the next four years because he does not want to lose any of 70K per week.

What world have these people been born into that they see 40K a week as 'a pay drop'?

You are correct, is is our fault and no one is trying to force him out, I was suggesting that it takes a better person to try again somewhere else because they love playing football, even if 40K a week might be a struggle.

[stevegrant]

But what's your take on whether he should stay then Steve? As Dusic seems to suggest, he should exercise that right and we are wrong to dismiss his poor attitude to finding a replacement or loan club.

I think that, unless someone has some pretty firm evidence that he's displayed a "poor attitude to finding a replacement or loan club", it's a bit unfair to have a pop at him for not moving.

 

The club offered him a contract 18 months or so ago on terms that they deemed to be appropriate - the contract is binding on both sides, we have to live with the fact we offered him far more than he would likely command elsewhere, and he is perfectly entitled to tell the club that, having offered that money, they can just continue to pay him that money for the foreseeable future. I don't know whether that is his attitude, or whether he genuinely believes he can force his way back into the first team.

 

There didn't seem to be many clubs linked with him in the summer, there was a rumour of a move to Turkey, but I wouldn't blame any player for not wanting to move abroad if they were settled, especially to a country that seems like it could be (or become) quite volatile. If there was a loan move in this country on the table, I'm sure from a playing perspective he'd look at it, but it could also come down to what was on offer financially to the club - if a loaning club in the Championship was only willing to take on 25% of his wages, the club might reasonably decide that's not worth their while, and I certainly wouldn't expect Forster himself to agree to take a pay cut at any stage of this.

 

I'd like us to find a solution to get him off the wage bill, because with two seemingly excellent goalkeepers ahead of him now, I don't really see a future for him here, but I wouldn't blame him at all for not wanting to lose the money the club has effectively promised him.

[Nordic Saint]

Not sure they were necessarily any worse, maybe not better granted though KD obviously pivotal to our previous success.

 

Kelvin Davis's Premier League record is incredibly bad. He has a lower percentage of clean sheets than just about any other keeper in the history of the league, having only kept 8, 1 every 6.6 games, and he was voted into the worst Sunderland XI of all-time. In contrast, Fraser Forster has kept 38, 1 every 2.79 games.

[stevegrant]

don't think anyone is saying what you are saying, not trying or breach of contract....

The actual point is that here is a man with a talent (not enough for this league perhaps) and a relatively short career, who is seemingly happy to do nothing for the next four years because he does not want to lose any of 70K per week.

What world have these people been born into that they see 40K a week as 'a pay drop'?

You are correct, is is our fault and no one is trying to force him out, I was suggesting that it takes a better person to try again somewhere else because they love playing football, even if 40K a week might be a struggle.

Perhaps he doesn't particularly "love" playing football at the moment, considering the last three or four years has largely consisted of a horrendous knee injury, the associated recovery, and a dramatic loss of form and the stick from the fans that comes with that.

 

Also, while £40k a week is obviously a ****-load of cash for you and I, put it another way... would you take a near-50% pay cut to work a similar job at a different company? I certainly wouldn't.

[verlaine1979]

don't think anyone is saying what you are saying, not trying or breach of contract....

The actual point is that here is a man with a talent (not enough for this league perhaps) and a relatively short career, who is seemingly happy to do nothing for the next four years because he does not want to lose any of 70K per week.

What world have these people been born into that they see 40K a week as 'a pay drop'?

You are correct, is is our fault and no one is trying to force him out, I was suggesting that it takes a better person to try again somewhere else because they love playing football, even if 40K a week might be a struggle.

 

Eh, why bother injecting a spurious moral component into this? His job is to be a part of the Saints squad, and aside from missing 90 minutes per week, I'd imagine he still plays more than enough football during training to satisfy any lingering love for the game (not that many people still love a hobby or sport once it becomes their profession).

 

On the flip side, he's a man with a relatively short career, who you're suggesting should give up over 40% of his earnings in order to play one more game of football per week for a lower league club that would also have pretty much no chance of winning anything meaningful. And the only reason you want him to do this is to save his employer - who let's not forget only bound him to such a long contract as they believed it would increase their chances of selling him for a profit - some money.

 

If there was some way that Forster's wages would be channeled into lifting children out of poverty or curing the sick, then sure, maybe it would be fair to accuse him of greed. As it is, any cash he walks away from will just be given to some other overpaid millionaire footballer, so I say fair play to him. Never do your employer any favours, as they'll almost never do any for you.

[doddisalegend]

Kelvin Davis's Premier League record is incredibly bad. He has a lower percentage of clean sheets than just about any other keeper in the history of the league, having only kept 8, 1 every 6.6 games, and he was voted into the worst Sunderland XI of all-time. In contrast, Fraser Forster has kept 38, 1 every 2.79 games.

 

 

His record at Sunderland has no bearing on whether he is one of the worst saints PL goal keepers though which was the original discussion.