Modern football

[angelman]

In some respects football now is the same as it was in the 70'sand 80's, Man U, Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool, now added to by the money at Chelsea and Man City. The problem now is that it is much more unfair on the smaller clubs than it ever was.

 

CL money on top of the extra TV income, and billionaire owners means that the top 6 can be pretty much untouchable. Even if you get above one of them for a season, they will just spend another £100m to recitify the problem.

 

What will kill the golden goose is more games like ours on Sunday, or Newcastle v Man City last season, when one team sets itself up to manage the negative goal difference rather than try and attack and win the game.

 

As always, for all those who don't want it to continue, cancel your Sky/BT subscriptions, and if not, it will just continue as is.

 

I thought about the first bit, about the 70s and 80s, and by decade I looked at the top 4 to see what sort of variation there was and how often each team appeared.

 

1970s: 9 - Liverpool; 5 - Ipswich; 4 - Leeds, Derby; 3 - Arsenal, Man C, Everton; 2 - Man U, Forest; 1 - Spurs, Wolves, QPR, Villa, WBA

1980s: 9 - Liverpool; 6 - Man U; 5 - Spurs; 4 - Arsenal, Everton; 3 - Forest; 2 - Ipswich, Villa; 1 - WBA, Watford, Saints, West Ham, Norwich

1990s: 9 - Man U; 7 - Arsenal; 6 - Liverpool; 4 - Leeds; 3 - Blackburn, Newcastle; 2 - Villa, Chelsea; 1 - Forest, Norwich, Palace, Wednesday

2000s: 10 - Man U, Arsenal; 8 - Chelsea; 7 - Liverpool; 2 - Newcastle; 1 - Leeds, Spurs, Everton

2010s: 8 - Man C; 6 - Arsenal; 5 - Chelsea, Man U; 4 - Spurs; 3 - Liverpool; 1 - Leicester

 

I find it all rather depressing.

[Give it to Ron]

or like the 2 ladies who arrived late one sat next to me then asked which team I was supporting. So reminded her she was sat in Saints fan stand....she was obviously a blue and after a frustrated mate at our short free kicks let go a few expletives they never returned second half.

Off to watch Tim Flowers managed Solihull Moors tomorrow and looking forward to it

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[OldNick]

I like Bournemouth as they have good honest mainly British players who ruffle the feathers of the big clubs. They don’t have players who are wanted by the top clubs and so constantly unsettle the club. They just are happy to play in the PL with a young British manager who understands the game.

Since Marcus died the real desire to be a top club went with him (it sums up my 50years of supporting Saints) just as we had someone who wanted us to push on somebody bigger comes along and takes him from us.

KL only IMO wanted to oversee her inheritance and sold us to somebody with no ambition.

If we were successful all would be hunky dory, but as we see now that every time we get a decent player or the start of a decent team/ manager they are taken. That is why we don’t like the PL we can’t compete and the penny has dropped that the good days are over for quite a time, Reed has overseen the downward curve and looking at what the academy is throwing up doesn’t give much hope there either

[Charlie Wayman]

For my stag do I have the choice of Saints v Manchester United or Eastleigh v Dover.

 

As we want to do something enjoyable and inclusive, it is not even a close choice.

 

Not very imaginative. The last thing most of us would want to do on our stag do is watch a flipping' football match. For goodness sake man this is your last chance to do something really different and exciting with your mates before the shackles are clicked shut, get abroad, get ****ed, go sky diving and get a life before it's too late.

 

**** football!

[saint michael]

I like Bournemouth as they have good honest mainly British players who ruffle the feathers of the big clubs. They don’t have players who are wanted by the top clubs and so constantly unsettle the club. They just are happy to play in the PL with a young British manager who understands the game.

Since Marcus died the real desire to be a top club went with him (it sums up my 50years of supporting Saints) just as we had someone who wanted us to push on somebody bigger comes along and takes him from us.

KL only IMO wanted to oversee her inheritance and sold us to somebody with no ambition.

If we were successful all would be hunky dory, but as we see now that every time we get a decent player or the start of a decent team/ manager they are taken. That is why we don’t like the PL we can’t compete and the penny has dropped that the good days are over for quite a time, Reed has overseen the downward curve and looking at what the academy is throwing up doesn’t

give much hope there either

 

Agree with most of that Nick. That feeling of no competition takes away the whole point of sport for me. I just can’t see things are sustainable for us at the moment so something has to change. This owner needs the prem money but looks highly likely to lose it soon. Can see the search for another buyer at some point

[del boy]

Well things have changed a lot. Most owners are foreign, same for chairman, manager and players. What bit still relates to the city? - stadium and shirt. Its not surprising there is no loyalty. Good young players want a decent living and if they're lucky will move on to a big club that can win something. Journeyman players want to earn a decent living until they retire at about 35. Decent managers move upwards, bad ones disappear, most go round and round in a constant cycle from club to club. Money rules - the more you have the more you can overpay to get the best players, its just supply and demand. Rich clubs get richer, poor clubs try to survive. Its top 6 winning things and the rest making up the numbers. Success for the 14 others is survival and the odd lucky win against the big boys, maybe even a cup run. Alright, Leicester winning the EPL was a freak season. Not easy to see how the cycle could be broken except by bringing in home grown player quotas and spending limits - and the boys with the money won't let that happen.

[angelman]

Is being in a competition where 6 can win it, or at the least fill the 4 CL money making spots, while the remaining 14 seemingly are content to just want to survive and carry on picking up the TV cheque, really a competition that is sustainable? People call it the best league in the world, but that seems to be down to 6 teams at the top compared to the more usual 2 or 3 and rather ignores the same flaws the PL has to all other leagues.

[benjii]

I was watching a bit of Barnsley v Luton the other day and apparently Barnsley have a Chinese "billionaire" owner too.

 

Basically, the "English football league" is dead.

 

I also recall watching half and half bedecked, grinning simpletons in the home end at Old Trafford posing for selfies with Lucas Moura this season after Spurs trousered them at home.

 

I think this will be last season with an ST.

[angelman]

Can't remember who said it, but..... The Premier League is not English football, it is football played in England.

[Give it to Ron]

I was watching a bit of Barnsley v Luton the other day and apparently Barnsley have a Chinese "billionaire" owner too.

 

Basically, the "English football league" is dead.

 

I also recall watching half and half bedecked, grinning simpletons in the home end at Old Trafford posing for selfies with Lucas Moura this season after Spurs trousered them at home.

 

I think this will be last season with an ST.

So I went to watch Solihull v Ebbsfleet and loved it not sure because if I was a neutral and no pressure.

The players were huge ....Ebbsfleet keeper was a lump but could play.

The wind played havoc and was too much long ball but mixed in was some good talented play.

Best player was Solihull left back Wreckford who I believe played at Wolves absolute quality.

Been going to watch Saints since 1963 this may be last as ST holder....when the club asks about my income in past 12 months or next 12 on survey they have lost any respect left I had.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[angelman]

So I went to watch Solihull v Ebbsfleet and loved it not sure because if I was a neutral and no pressure.

The players were huge ....Ebbsfleet keeper was a lump but could play.

The wind played havoc and was too much long ball but mixed in was some good talented play.

Best player was Solihull left back Wreckford who I believe played at Wolves absolute quality.

Been going to watch Saints since 1963 this may be last as ST holder....when the club asks about my income in past 12 months or next 12 on survey they have lost any respect left I had.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

I guess there are two ways of looking at things....

 

1) A league which has the best players and (some) teams play scintilating football that others cannot match.

 

2) A league that doesn't have the best players, not least concentrated in 6 or 7 teams. A lower standard of player, but where the competition between clubs is much more even. Something like the Championship, or maybe Solihull/Ebsfleet, whichever league they are in!

 

So if we were supporters of the Big 6, then (1) is absolutely fine and to hell with everyone else - they should be grateful hanging on to the shirt tales of the big boys and picking up the TV money. As we at Saints aren't Big 6, while some like (1) [at the Chelsea game, and old ST holder came back for about the 2 time in 2 years. It was to watch the likes of Hazard, even though he is a Saints supporter - he wanted to watch the quality], many/most would prefer (2). Or maybe it is just me that wants (2). I want Saints to be able to compete. Of course the ideal scenario is that we compete with those at the top with a full, rocking SMS, but that's a little fanciful.

 

So the choices are....

 

(1) Change alleigance and support a successful team! (Never going to happen!!!)

(2) Accept that we are never going to be anything than making up the numbers, and carry on going, questioning why and what's the point.

(3) Give up going to the football.

 

As mentioned earlier, I am more than happy to admit to being a little whimsical. If I was entertained, maybe I could accept being their to make up the numbers. I hugely enjoyed a lot of the 2 years that Koeman was with us, and am thankful that I did.

Edited 14 October, 2018 by angelman

[angelman]

Read in the paper today that Fifa are ramping things up, to a level that I thought was much more likely to happen. Backed by Saudi/UAE money, Fifa are supposedly going to discuss a 24 team Club World Cup. Discussions supposed to be raised during their scheduled meeting on Thurs/Fri in Kigali (Rwanda). It would be in place of the Confederations Cup and start in 2021 and happen every 4 years. 12 European teams, inc 2 English ones Man U and Liverpool, which will please the likes the other Big 6, with the winners supposedly pocketing more than £100m. Supposed to run in December.

 

Fifa also want to expand Uefa's Nations League (again backed with Arab money).

 

I always thought that the Confederations Cup was there to help the host of the World Cup that took place the year after. Help give them meaningful games, given that they do not have to go through qualification, as well as test the preparedness of things. But maybe this Club World Cup is a good thing as it will really stir things up and annoy a lot of clubs and maybe the PL as well.

 

Money, money, money.

[Patrick Bateman]

Football at the 'top' can do one. I wish more people would start abandoning top flight matches for lower leagues or non-leagues.

[saint77]

Football at the 'top' can do one. I wish more people would start abandoning top flight matches for lower leagues or non-leagues.

 

Yep fully understand where your coming from the last 3 or so years the love I had for football for over 50 years has dwindled dramatically not helped by some of the antics that have gone on at our club but football in general stinks

[bangkoksaint]

I watched Whitton v Solihull in FA Cup at weekend and I concur with what you say. I thought Wreckford looked superb and would love to see us start taking a punt on such players who would run through walls for such an opportunity. I’m so disenchanted with PL football and Saints that I’m drifting away from it. I’m going Saturday but it may be the last game for quite a while.

[angelman]

Football at the 'top' can do one. I wish more people would start abandoning top flight matches for lower leagues or non-leagues.

 

But but but....the PL is the best league in the world, don't you know?

[suewhistle]

I'm hoping Maidenhead United beat Cheltenham so that they play Pompey in the FA cup. I saw the Magpies play Aveley in the cup many years ago and that was one great atmosphere. The game features in Nick Hornby's Fever Pitch. If there weren't so many Pompey supporters I'd consider wandering down to my local H&W. But I'll still be there this Saturday and the cynical discussions about the cynical set up of football with my friends will continue.

[VectisSaint]

I'm hoping Maidenhead United beat Cheltenham so that they play Pompey in the FA cup. I saw the Magpies play Aveley in the cup many years ago and that was one great atmosphere. The game features in Nick Hornby's Fever Pitch. If there weren't so many Pompey supporters I'd consider wandering down to my local H&W. But I'll still be there this Saturday and the cynical discussions about the cynical set up of football with my friends will continue.

Maidenhead are playing Chippenham. I hope Maidenhead win so that we aren't invaded by Skates here in the next round. The thought of that **** with a bell and his "mates" at Hardenhuish is too awful to contemplate.

[adrian lord]

Modern football is no longer a place where tens of thousands of young men (and not so young) congregate and discharge their natural aggression in a relatively safe environment. A football match is now a cultural event indistinguishable from the cinema, the opera or horse trials. Fan segregation is dying at an exponential rate: expect to see completely mixed-allegiance and neutral crowds in most stands at most grounds in the next 3-8 years. What was once adversarial at all levels is now merely inquisitorial at a spectator level.

 

Modern football: neutered, inquisitorial, emasculated and sterile.

[Give it to Ron]

I watched Whitton v Solihull in FA Cup at weekend and I concur with what you say. I thought Wreckford looked superb and would love to see us start taking a punt on such players who would run through walls for such an opportunity. I’m so disenchanted with PL football and Saints that I’m drifting away from it. I’m going Saturday but it may be the last game for quite a while.

Tim Flowers has them playing well. Tactically good week before sat his biggest midfielder 6ft 4ish in front of back 4 and won everything against wind allowed pacy wingers and good forwards to play.

Wreckford could play up 2 more divisions at least was brilliant against Ebbsfleet.

Certainly will go non league again

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Patrick Bateman]

Modern football is no longer a place where tens of thousands of young men (and not so young) congregate and discharge their natural aggression in a relatively safe environment. A football match is now a cultural event indistinguishable from the cinema, the opera or horse trials. Fan segregation is dying at an exponential rate: expect to see completely mixed-allegiance and neutral crowds in most stands at most grounds in the next 3-8 years. What was once adversarial at all levels is now merely inquisitorial at a spectator level.

 

Modern football: neutered, inquisitorial, emasculated and sterile.

 

Absolutely. Top flight football is sterile, for TV and the overseas fans. It is sh*t. I haven't been to a Saints match this season and I don't even find that sad. I love my city and I love my club, but I hate top flight football.

[benjii]

If I can't **** in someone's pocket I might as well stay at home FFS.

[Saint Billy]

The trouble is that most of us go to games anticipating a poor display and a crap result, we hardly ever turn over the bigger clubs now and usually struggle against clubs around us. Without drastic changes within the club things will only get worse.

 

What infuriates me mostly is the huge amount of money the club has wasted on poor player purchases and yet no one is being held accountable.

 

I still enjoy football in the main as a spectical ie the World Cup, but am loathed now to shell out funds on watching prima donnas, with no allegiance to the club, not bothered if they play or not attempt to kick a ball about, owned by someone I've seen twice, and run by complete imbeciles.

[eurosaint]

I like Bournemouth as they have good honest mainly British players who ruffle the feathers of the big clubs. They don’t have players who are wanted by the top clubs and so constantly unsettle the club. They just are happy to play in the PL with a young British manager who understands the game.

Since Marcus died the real desire to be a top club went with him (it sums up my 50years of supporting Saints) just as we had someone who wanted us to push on somebody bigger comes along and takes him from us.

KL only IMO wanted to oversee her inheritance and sold us to somebody with no ambition.

If we were successful all would be hunky dory, but as we see now that every time we get a decent player or the start of a decent team/ manager they are taken. That is why we don’t like the PL we can’t compete and the penny has dropped that the good days are over for quite a time, Reed has overseen the downward curve and looking at what the academy is throwing up doesn’t give much hope there either

 

When we played them last week, both teams used 7 GB players and both have GB managers so that comparison is perhaps not the most valid one !

(If you include S. Long from Ireland, we would have had more) !

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45847411

[Charlie Wayman]

Absolutely. Top flight football is sterile, for TV and the overseas fans. It is sh*t. I haven't been to a Saints match this season and I don't even find that sad. I love my city and I love my club, but I hate top flight football.

 

...but we're not playing "top flight" football at St Mary's Patrick, so what's your gripe?

[Charlie Wayman]

I was just toying with the idea, suppose, lust suppose we win 4-0 on Saturday, how the hell would we handle that on here?

[benjii]

When we played them last week, both teams used 7 GB players and both have GB managers so that comparison is perhaps not the most valid one !

(If you include S. Long from Ireland, we would have had more) !

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45847411

 

My phone's got 64GB FFS.

 

No wonder we're scheeoite.

[John Boy Saint]

A ray of light to colour these grey drab times

 

https://www.gillinghamfootballclub.com/news/2018/october/chairman-plymouth/?fbclid=IwAR2vLpZWnzfFhC_v1ItRxwZED0DTGsIH21z-GtVx1gvdaIdhUFj8jsLQNBA

[mrfahaji]

or like the 2 ladies who arrived late one sat next to me then asked which team I was supporting. So reminded her she was sat in Saints fan stand....she was obviously a blue and after a frustrated mate at our short free kicks let go a few expletives they never returned second half.

Off to watch Tim Flowers managed Solihull Moors tomorrow and looking forward to it

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

Wow. You should be thrown out of the stadium for even asking that question...!

 

But for a lot of people now, the idea that there might be an issue with sitting in the wrong stand is strange. Eventually the 'weirdos' who don't want to be surrounded by opposition fans will be phased out and football will be a nice vanilla place with no atmosphere where everyone's a winner just for being part of the special day. We're virtually there already.

[doddisalegend]

Nice article for people who complain about how we used to beat the big sides all the time but don't anymore.....

 

For the Premier League ‘big six’, beating the ‘other 14’ is easier than ever as resource gap grows

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-manchester-united-city-liverpool-arsenal-chelsea-tottenham-big-six-a8601076.html

[angelman]

Nice article for people who complain about how we used to beat the big sides all the time but don't anymore.....

 

For the Premier League ‘big six’, beating the ‘other 14’ is easier than ever as resource gap grows

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-manchester-united-city-liverpool-arsenal-chelsea-tottenham-big-six-a8601076.html

 

Too few journalists mention it. Fatty Samuel does once in a while. He actually rails against it, but here with the Indy article, it is all let down with the final bit....

 

In general, though, the gap has grown and the unpredictability has lessened. And it means the stakes around the big games, like City’s trip to Wembley, will only increase.

 

So basically, the games between the Big 6 are even better and more thrilling as there is even more at stake, seeing as they don't lose against the 14! Great what about all those other games vs the 14? Why is there no solution offered for this "concerning trend" where the Big 6 don't lose against the rest, save for an off day? Seems that the concern isn't really there at all and journos can rub their pudgy little mitts in anticipation at the Big 6 playing each other, even if the author of the Indy piece says Spurs vs City this w/end isn't hugely exciting as "it doesn’t just stand out because it is one of the season’s 30 games between the ‘big six’". Whenever the topic gets briefly touched upon, I feel that usually the journo is being disingenuous with their concern. They like the Big 6 and CL, and couldn't give a toss about the 14 (let alone 86).

 

From the Indy - Miguel Delaney is The Independent’s award-winning Chief Football Writer. He has written for the publication since 2011 and focuses mainly on the Premier League and Champions League.

 

Great. PL and CL. As mentioned earlier, only LCFC have been in CL from outside the Big 6 this decade (to go with Everton and Newcastle this century). It is an irrelevance to all outside of the Big 6. I wonder if Miguel (more about him here - https://thesetpieces.com/interviews/vox-box-miguel-delaney/ ) might see the flaw in the CL, in that it adds to the financial imbalance between the 6 he so likes, and the 14? Nah. These sort of people far prefer being sycophantic to the Big 6 so that they can get all their freebies, access etc etc.

[nta786]

Too few journalists mention it. Fatty Samuel does once in a while. He actually rails against it, but here with the Indy article, it is all let down with the final bit....

 

In general, though, the gap has grown and the unpredictability has lessened. And it means the stakes around the big games, like City’s trip to Wembley, will only increase.

 

So basically, the games between the Big 6 are even better and more thrilling as there is even more at stake, seeing as they don't lose against the 14! Great what about all those other games vs the 14? Why is there no solution offered for this "concerning trend" where the Big 6 don't lose against the rest, save for an off day? Seems that the concern isn't really there at all and journos can rub their pudgy little mitts in anticipation at the Big 6 playing each other, even if the author of the Indy piece says Spurs vs City this w/end isn't hugely exciting as "it doesn’t just stand out because it is one of the season’s 30 games between the ‘big six’". Whenever the topic gets briefly touched upon, I feel that usually the journo is being disingenuous with their concern. They like the Big 6 and CL, and couldn't give a toss about the 14 (let alone 86).

 

From the Indy - Miguel Delaney is The Independent’s award-winning Chief Football Writer. He has written for the publication since 2011 and focuses mainly on the Premier League and Champions League.

 

Great. PL and CL. As mentioned earlier, only LCFC have been in CL from outside the Big 6 this decade (to go with Everton and Newcastle this century). It is an irrelevance to all outside of the Big 6. I wonder if Miguel (more about him here - https://thesetpieces.com/interviews/vox-box-miguel-delaney/ ) might see the flaw in the CL, in that it adds to the financial imbalance between the 6 he so likes, and the 14? Nah. These sort of people far prefer being sycophantic to the Big 6 so that they can get all their freebies, access etc etc.

 

i did an economic paper on this recently.

the reason that there is no cause for concern from the regulators i.e. the PL is simply that attendances remain at near on full capacity and revenues continue to increase- if anyone has read Rottenberg's paper in 1956 who argued that sports teams need to be equal in ability to generate revenue- it doesn't apply in the case of the PL...

most commentators argue that the PL is still attractive because whilst the top 6 is usually pencilled in, within the top 6 they seem to change positions regularly... and then the same occurs for the rest of the 14- it is almost like a league within a league- and these itself are unpredictable which generates interest.

 

i could go far deeper with this topic but yeah otherwise that is a simple way of putting it

[mrfahaji]

The top 5 this season have the following records against non-top 5 teams (i.e. excluding matches against eachother):

 

Man City P7 W6 D1 L0

Liverpool P6 W6 D0 L0

Chelsea P7 W5 D2 L0

Arsenal P7 W7 D0 L0

Spurs P8 W7 D0 L1

 

That's 96 points out of a possible 105. (Not to mention one of the Chelsea draws was against Man Utd). So based on the results so far, if you are one of the 'other' teams, you go into a game against the top 5 with less than 10% chance of getting any points. Likley return from the 10 matches against them is one win (and no draws).

 

It seems like one more recent phenomenom is that it no longer seems to matter whether these teams are home or away. It's never been easy to go to the big grounds, but now it feels like they can turn you over just as easily on your own patch as they can on theirs. All a bit depressing how no-one in the media seems to care about this.

Edited 25 October, 2018 by mrfahaji

[captainchris]

Yep fully understand where your coming from the last 3 or so years the love I had for football for over 50 years has dwindled dramatically not helped by some of the antics that have gone on at our club but football in general stinks

About right. Money has wrecked the game aided and abetted by a top six addicted media. The homage paid to the top six clubs

is boring the pants off the rest of us.

The lack of effort and skill these days is also alarming...

There are many things missing in football now and most can be traced back to money and greed....

[norwaysaint]

It's kind of funny that back in the eighties there were people complaining about the modern game and in 20-30 years time there will be people complaining about how terrible the modern game is compared to when they went to games back in 2018. Nostalgia is exactly what it used to be.

[StDunko]

It's kind of funny that back in the eighties there were people complaining about the modern game and in 20-30 years time there will be people complaining about how terrible the modern game is compared to when they went to games back in 2018. Nostalgia is exactly what it used to be.

 

This.

[Cabbage_Face]

It's kind of funny that back in the eighties there were people complaining about the modern game and in 20-30 years time there will be people complaining about how terrible the modern game is compared to when they went to games back in 2018. Nostalgia is exactly what it used to be.

 

That's called a "Liverpool fan". I'm not saying football was better back in the day. Just think modern day football is a mess.

[mrfahaji]

It's kind of funny that back in the eighties there were people complaining about the modern game and in 20-30 years time there will be people complaining about how terrible the modern game is compared to when they went to games back in 2018. Nostalgia is exactly what it used to be.

 

But angelman's stats above show that that reasoning is supported by facts, not just some hunch or warm feeling for the good old days. 2015/16 was great because Stoke finished above Chelsea, West Ham and Saints finished above Liverpool, Tottenham and Arsenal finished above the two Manchester clubs and Leicester finished above them all. At the time it felt like things were changing, but the big clubs responded by spending more than ever before and signing up the best managers in the world and it's now worse than it was before.

 

Regardless of what you think of it as a sport, at the end of last season I saw Osi Umenyiora wax lyrical about the NFL on the BBC show, and he said "the product is so good. The teams you don't expect to win, win, and the teams you'd never think might lose, lose. Everybody has a chance." And I thought, somewhat glumly, "exactly the opposite of the Premier League then".

[Batman]

But angelman's stats above show that that reasoning is supported by facts, not just some hunch or warm feeling for the good old days. 2015/16 was great because Stoke finished above Chelsea, West Ham and Saints finished above Liverpool, Tottenham and Arsenal finished above the two Manchester clubs and Leicester finished above them all. At the time it felt like things were changing, but the big clubs responded by spending more than ever before and signing up the best managers in the world and it's now worse than it was before.

 

Regardless of what you think of it as a sport, at the end of last season I saw Osi Umenyiora wax lyrical about the NFL on the BBC show, and he said "the product is so good. The teams you don't expect to win, win, and the teams you'd never think might lose, lose. Everybody has a chance." And I thought, somewhat glumly, "exactly the opposite of the Premier League then".

 

We were what, top 18 or so club in Europe for turnover/worth

 

Best we could do was pellegrino and now Hughes

 

No fault but our own

[doddisalegend]

Premier League is a million miles away from the Plymouth corner of England but Pilgrimage there is good for the soul

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/7585214/plymouth-argyle-premier-league-neil-ashton/

[mrfahaji]

We were what, top 18 or so club in Europe for turnover/worth

 

Best we could do was pellegrino and now Hughes

 

No fault but our own

 

 

That's not the point I'm making. Yes, Southampton's fall from top half regulars to relegation fodder is our own fault, but that has nothing to do with the fact that the top 5 (which will probably be top 6 once United get their act together) are virtually unbeatable and no matter who the 'also rans' are, there are 14 of them and they don't stand a chance.

[Batman]

That's not the point I'm making. Yes, Southampton's fall from top half regulars to relegation fodder is our own fault, but that has nothing to do with the fact that the top 5 (which will probably be top 6 once United get their act together) are virtually unbeatable and no matter who the 'also rans' are, there are 14 of them and they don't stand a chance.

 

20 years ago it was the top 1, then arsenal made it the top 2. It became the top 4 for years now city’s cash and excellent management by spurs has made it the top 6.

I bet spurs starting 11 costs not much from ours in terms of fees paid to purchase

 

It rank bad management from us and others mostly

 

No other club has sold so many first team players in a short space of time compared to us. For what ever reason.

Edited 26 October, 2018 by Batman

[angelman]

20 years ago it was the top 1, then arsenal made it the top 2. It became the top 4 for years now city’s cash and excellent management by spurs has made it the top 6.

I bet spurs starting 11 costs not much from ours in terms of fees paid to purchase

 

It rank bad management from us and others mostly

 

No other club has sold so many first team players in a short space of time compared to us. For what ever reason.

 

Spurs Xi - fees paid is only half of it. You have to take the whole package into account these days: fee paid (if there is one), wages and maybe even agents' fees these days.

 

But sure, there was always a team that dominated. In the 70s & 80s it was Liverpool. In the 90s & 00s it was Man Utd. In the 10s it is a little more balanced out. But expanding things from the top 4 that I did, to looking at top 6 for this decade so far. Man City, Arsenal and Spurs have finished top 6 all 8 seasons so far. Man U and Chelsea have finished top 6 on 7 occasions and Liverpool have 5 times. Everton twice, and NUFC,LCFC and us once apiece. So those 5 slots not filled by the Big 6, 3 were at Liverpool's expense. I don't think that anyone could say that things aren't now different.

 

As for being the Champion, of the non Big 6 you have Leicester 2015/16, Leeds 1991/92, Everton 1986/87 & 1984/85, Villa 1980/81, Forest 1977/78, Derby 1974/75, Leeds 1973/74, Derby 1971/72, Everton 1969/70, Leeds 1968/69. So in the past 50 years, you have 11 non Big 6 winning it, although it has to be said that in the mid 80s you would consider Everton to be one of the bigs, and maybe so with the others in their respective decades. But the point is, since the PL started, it is only Leicester.

[The9]

We were what, top 18 or so club in Europe for turnover/worth

Best we could do was pellegrino and now Hughes

No fault but our own

 

We're still in the top 25 in revenue in Europe. The entire Premier League is in the top 30. Our recruitment of managers isn't due to a lack of funds.

[The9]

Spurs Xi - fees paid is only half of it. You have to take the whole package into account these days: fee paid (if there is one), wages and maybe even agents' fees these days.

 

But sure, there was always a team that dominated. In the 70s & 80s it was Liverpool. In the 90s & 00s it was Man Utd. In the 10s it is a little more balanced out. But expanding things from the top 4 that I did, to looking at top 6 for this decade so far. Man City, Arsenal and Spurs have finished top 6 all 8 seasons so far. Man U and Chelsea have finished top 6 on 7 occasions and Liverpool have 5 times. Everton twice, and NUFC,LCFC and us once apiece. So those 5 slots not filled by the Big 6, 3 were at Liverpool's expense. I don't think that anyone could say that things aren't now different.

 

As for being the Champion, of the non Big 6 you have Leicester 2015/16, Leeds 1991/92, Everton 1986/87 & 1984/85, Villa 1980/81, Forest 1977/78, Derby 1974/75, Leeds 1973/74, Derby 1971/72, Everton 1969/70, Leeds 1968/69. So in the past 50 years, you have 11 non Big 6 winning it, although it has to be said that in the mid 80s you would consider Everton to be one of the bigs, and maybe so with the others in their respective decades. But the point is, since the PL started, it is only Leicester.

 

And Blackburn.

[CB Fry]

Spurs Xi - fees paid is only half of it. You have to take the whole package into account these days: fee paid (if there is one), wages and maybe even agents' fees these days.

 

But sure, there was always a team that dominated. In the 70s & 80s it was Liverpool. In the 90s & 00s it was Man Utd. In the 10s it is a little more balanced out. But expanding things from the top 4 that I did, to looking at top 6 for this decade so far. Man City, Arsenal and Spurs have finished top 6 all 8 seasons so far. Man U and Chelsea have finished top 6 on 7 occasions and Liverpool have 5 times. Everton twice, and NUFC,LCFC and us once apiece. So those 5 slots not filled by the Big 6, 3 were at Liverpool's expense. I don't think that anyone could say that things aren't now different.

 

As for being the Champion, of the non Big 6 you have Leicester 2015/16, Leeds 1991/92, Everton 1986/87 & 1984/85, Villa 1980/81, Forest 1977/78, Derby 1974/75, Leeds 1973/74, Derby 1971/72, Everton 1969/70, Leeds 1968/69. So in the past 50 years, you have 11 non Big 6 winning it, although it has to be said that in the mid 80s you would consider Everton to be one of the bigs, and maybe so with the others in their respective decades. But the point is, since the PL started, it is only Leicester.

 

When Leeds won the league I think they would have described themselves as part of the big six, if it existed. Ditto Everton. Ditto Villa.

Edited 26 October, 2018 by CB Fry

[mrfahaji]

When Leeds won the league I think they would have described themselves as part of the big six, if it existed. Ditto Everton. Ditto Villa.

 

True, I think it's wrong to use specific examples.

 

But the main point of angelman's stats is that the number different teams to finish in the top 4 has dimished each decade. So it doesn't matter who the big clubs were, there were either not as many dominant teams or their period of dominance was shorter.

 

Also, Everton do still describe themselves as part of the big six

 

One more point, I'm not complaining that there are bigger or better teams than us, that's always been the case. It's the magnitude of it. Man City spend about 5 times as much on wages as most other clubs. They can afford to have 2 entire teams of top international players, and sign all the best youngsters and put them all out on loan. It used to be that you could beat them at home, or get them after an european match etc, but it just doesn't seem that way anymore. If Aguero and Sterling are injured, they just play Jesus and Sane instead. It's the difference between thinking "going to be tough today but we might nick something" and "best we can hope for is to keep the score down". Admittedly that's partly a reflection of where Southampton are, but West Ham, Everton, Watford or Leicester clearly aren't faring much better than us in these matches either.

Edited 26 October, 2018 by mrfahaji

[whelk]

True, I think it's wrong to use specific examples.

 

But the main point of angelman's stats is that the number different teams to finish in the top 4 has dimished each decade. So it doesn't matter who the big clubs were, there were either not as many dominant teams or their period of dominance was shorter.

 

Also, Everton do still describe themselves as part of the big six

 

One more point, I'm not complaining that there are bigger or better teams than us, that's always been the case. It's the magnitude of it. Man City spend about 5 times as much on wages as most other clubs. They can afford to have 2 entire teams of top international players, and sign all the best youngsters and put them all out on loan. It used to be that you could beat them at home, or get them after an european match etc, but it just doesn't seem that way anymore. If Aguero and Sterling are injured, they just play Jesus and Sane instead. It's the difference between thinking "going to be tough today but we might nick something" and "best we can hope for is to keep the score down". Admittedly that's partly a reflection of where Southampton are, but West Ham, Everton, Watford or Leicester clearly aren't faring much better than us in these matches either.

 

Three seasons ago we beat Pep’s Man City 4-2 with Aguero on their bench

 

Also beat Klopp’s Liverpool 3-2

 

If they had all propelled to a different level they should be cleaning up in Europe

[mrfahaji]

Three seasons ago we beat Pep’s Man City 4-2 with Aguero on their bench

 

Also beat Klopp’s Liverpool 3-2

 

If they had all propelled to a different level they should be cleaning up in Europe

 

That was the season City finished 4th and were very beatable under Pelligrini and Liverpool finished 8th in Klopp’s first season wasn’t it? Which I’ve said previously was a great season that felt like a watershed moment, but it just convinced the big clubs to go mental to make sure the smaller clubs never get a look in ever again.

[Mosin]

That was the season City finished 4th and were very beatable under Pelligrini and Liverpool finished 8th in Klopp’s first season wasn’t it? Which I’ve said previously was a great season that felt like a watershed moment, but it just convinced the big clubs to go mental to make sure the smaller clubs never get a look in ever again.

 

was it not Koeman when Mane got a hattrick?

 

 

Ignore me, cant read clearly says Pelligrini , I thought u said MP2 LOL

Edited 26 October, 2018 by Mosin