Everton 2-1 Saints - Reaction

[Faz]

Agree with those who say Ings and Gabbiadini should start. Looked more of a threat yesterday but a miracle to only concede two, felt sorry for the full backs with those two jokers at CB. How does Cedric end up marking Richarlison for their second? Hoedt is something else, at least Stephens can play RB, where is actually OK and I wonder if he’ll end up dislodging a misfiring Romeu at DM. JWP had a better second half and Lemina OK.

 

Vestergaard hopefully only a 24 hour thing and Yoshida back next week. Vardy sending off a bonus for next week.

 

Really, you cant see how our right back ends up marking their left winger?

[saint1977]

In Switzerland but even here not out of reach the negative posts by people masquerading as Saints’ fans. True fans support the club and don’t make offensive insults about players and staff.

2-1 from home is not a poor result but if I were a coach or player, reading some of the rubbish posted on here, I’d wonder if it was worth bothering to do your best.

Of the 4 outfield players bought in at a substantial investment to improve the team, only one was fit enough to play so it’s hardly surprising that a strong team like Everton were a huge challenge at home. We should congratulate our team on losing out just by the odd goal in 3.

 

Of the

 

It’s simple Prof, people, actually the overwhelming sum of the fanbase, have the hump with Les Reed, and until he is gone it puts a sour smell into everything about the club. After the Forster second extension and Carrillo debacles in particular, which hamstrung us badly this summer when still needed to strengthen further, welcome as the new signings were, that can’t be a surprise to anyone who knows their stuff.

 

The Fans Forum, normally a docile affair, brought this home. Reed leaving would give the chance to come together, is he is as controversial figure as Lowe was, but in Mr Gao’s hands.

 

Still plenty of question marks about Mr Gao himself. That, Reed, and 18 months of terrible football, are why there are a lot of grumpy fans inside and outside of SMS. I’ll still be going to games to back the manager and team but haven’t felt much in the way of belief in the club hierarchy for some time.

[hackedoff]

TBF people have had two seasons of saying if only we'd scored so its not really a surprise people have been worn down a bit. I've lost count of the games I've watched the last couple of seasons where I've thought "if only we'd scored that opportunity" the problem is we don't and you don't get points for almost scoring or playing well and losing.

 

Exactly,people are happy to trot out any excuse but this is an all too familiar ,reacuring trait with this team.

[Cabrone]

So much OTT negativity, yes we lost but it's Everton away. Is the pope a catholic etc etc....

 

Feel a lot more positive about this season than last - a few tweaks to CB'S and get Gabbi in from the off - and we'll be fine. For one thing we look actually capable of scoring goals at last and Ings looks like a very decent bit of business.

 

Sure we aren't going to get a european place but I see us comfortably steering clear of relegation and that in my books is a definite improvement on the utter dross of the last 2 seasons.

[saints-cris]

Once I saw the lineup I accepted defeat there and then. Hoedt and Stephens are really our 3rd & 4th choice IMO, and a clean sheet was never going to happen with them playing together. Not sure why Long made it on to the pitch either.

 

I will let this game go as not being able to select either of Vestergaard or Elyonoussi left us in the lurch a bit, but I think it showed us that Lemina and Austin are very disposable. Neither are really offering anything near their ability shows.

[tajjuk]

Richarlison was the only Everton player on the field today that didn't play for them last season I believe. They may have spent a lot of money lately but like us they haven't got it onto the pitch yet. In fact at least some of Saints signings have played at least 1 game so far.

 

Richarlison was their only new signing who played yesterday.

And they cut through us like a knife through butter.

We don’t really know what the likes of Fulham will be like this season.. lots of players signed neardeadline day and not yet integrated into their first XI. By October we’ll understand what they’ve got.

And wolves have been excellent so far. They were incredibly unlucky yesterday... I don’t think they’ll be one of our relegation rivals.

 

 

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Tosun and Walcott were signed in Jan, between those two and Richarlison you have about £80 million plus in the last 6 months alone on attackers, overall Everton have spent like over £250 million in the last 3 windows.

 

Not only can we not compete with that, 3 of our main signings were not on the pitch today and yet away from home we were probably a tad unlucky not to nick a point against one of the biggest spenders in the league.

 

Hence why I don't get the negativity, Everton have spent like 3 times what we have and they don't look much better IMO.

[OldNick]

Once I saw the lineup I accepted defeat there and then. Hoedt and Stephens are really our 3rd & 4th choice IMO, and a clean sheet was never going to happen with them playing together. Not sure why Long made it on to the pitch either.

 

I will let this game go as not being able to select either of Vestergaard or Elyonoussi left us in the lurch a bit, but I think it showed us that Lemina and Austin are very disposable. Neither are really offering anything near their ability shows.

I would have started with Long as he runs the defence, ok he is not prolific but he doesn't give them time to develop from the back.If only Hughes could get him to the goalscoring of Ronald

[wessex saint]

Ha ha!

You got it completely wrong for the last decade before that though didn't you?

Should we look at you as some sort of shamen because your boring prediction of 17th eventually came true?

Oh.. and who are the teams that will finish below us? I'll stick some cash on it.

[OldNick]

Ha ha!

You got it completely wrong for the last decade before that though didn't you?

Should we look at you as some sort of shamen because your boring prediction of 17th eventually came true?

Oh.. and who are the teams that will finish below us? I'll stick some cash on it.

Dalek is only remembered for his constant we are going to finish 17th or Hoddle. Nothing else he says ever means anything.

[mrfahaji]

Was away this weekend so only just seen the goals. When I heard the comments about Cedric being beaten in the air I assumed it was a typical 'big guy outjumps little guy' scenario, and it's a bit harsh to blame an individual for that really, they can't help being short. But that isn't really what happens - Cedric just fails to stick with him and make it difficult. Anyone can 'run alongside' their opposite number, you have to be a bit more switched on to the danger and more pertinently, show a bit more desire to make that challenge in the box. Richarlison was barely under pressure.

Edited 20 August, 2018 by mrfahaji

[Graffito]

A winnable game which inevitably Saints lost. Didn’t compete first half. No pressure on the ball in midfield and barely won a header at the back. A better second half but this is both our league games now where the team has gone out onto the pitch and put in a half arsed performance first half. Hughes has to get them up for it from the start.

[Faz]

A winnable game which inevitably Saints lost. Didn’t compete first half. No pressure on the ball in midfield and barely won a header at the back. A better second half but this is both our league games now where the team has gone out onto the pitch and put in a half arsed performance first half. Hughes has to get them up for it from the start.

 

A winnable game we haven't won since 1987 or something ridiculous.

[shurlock]

Was away this weekend so only just seen the goals. When I heard the comments about Cedric being beaten in the air I assumed it was a typical 'big guy outjumps little guy' scenario, and it's a bit harsh to blame an individual for that really, they can't help being short. But that isn't really what happens - Cedric just fails to stick with him and make it difficult. Anyone can 'run alongside' their opposite number, you have to be a bit more switched on to the danger and more importantly, show a bit more desire to make that challenge in the box. Richarlison was barely under pressure.

 

Richarlison cut in quite sharply, taking him quite central. Stephens, in this respect, was not completely blameless. He should have been marking Tosun who pulled off him and was in acres of space for the cutback or deeper cross. Having lost Tosun, he was close enough to Richarlison to put him under a bit more pressure had he read the situation.

[mrfahaji]

Richarlison cut in quite sharply, taking him quite central. Stephens, in this respect, was not completely blameless. He should have been marking Tosun who pulled off him and was in acres of space for the cutback or deeper cross. Having lost Tosun, he was close enough to Richarlison to put him under a bit more pressure had he read the situation.

 

Just watched it again (a few times), paying more attention to this. I do see what you're saying but I still think that at this point (see picture) Cedric is still with Richarlison and it is obvious where the ball is going to be played and the danger area he needs to protect. The move from Tosun/Stephens comes a bit earlier (i.e. before the ball is crossed). I think it's a bit much to expect Stephens to recover once he has vacated that space, but perhaps a bigger question is how he was dragged out so far so easily - which is not the first time we've seen that.

 

You might still disagree with me, but good to hear counter arguments, it makes you look for the small details and check your opinions - sometimes even change them, just not this time

 

[VectisSaint]

Richarlison cut in quite sharply, taking him quite central. Stephens, in this respect, was not completely blameless. He should have been marking Tosun who pulled off him and was in acres of space for the cutback or deeper cross. Having lost Tosun, he was close enough to Richarlison to put him under a bit more pressure had he read the situation.

Stephens was marking Tosun, and was physically man-handling him preventing him coming in for the cross. Having seen to that Stephens then anticipates the cross to Richarlison, who was Cedric's man (yes, I can understand why people think these two were marking the wrong men but that's how it was) but it was too late to help out Cedric. Think you are being extremely harsh on Stephens for that goal. But then its harsh on cedric as well. As with the first ball, the fault is much further back and stems from poor play by our midfield and left sided defence. The free kick was given away by poor defending by Lemina and subsequently Hoedt. The second goal was gifted by a combination of Bertrand, Lemina and Redmond's total inability to deal with the long ball from I think Pickford. So many of our problems are blamed on our defenders, especially the CBs, but they are being let down time and again by our defensive midfield (Romeu and Lemina) and even dare I say it Bertrand. Our left side defensively is appalling at the moment, good players who are putting in shocking performances, way below the standard that we know they can achieve. I'm nt trying to defend Hoedt and Stephens, Hoedt in particular was abosuletly awful again on Saturday, but to be fair to them the plan had never been for them to play as CBs in a back 4, Hughes was clearly still hoping Jannik was going to play up to the last minute (he was not far away from being fit enough having travelled to the game, separately, and looked OK at the ground) so it was all a bit makeshift which doesn't help. Frankly I was expecting to lose by more than 1 goal/concede more than 2 so in the end it was not that bad, and if Ings shot had not been tipped on to the bar by Pickford things may have been very different. Still don't understand why Hughes picks Hoedt over Yoshida, buit in my view the biggest problem at the moment is getting the midfield and left sided defensive unit working properly, Romeu is completely off form and Lemina is a complete liability, Bertrand is also off form and having Redmond as the attacking midfielder on the left leaves us very exposed, because he provides nothing defensively (the one and only advantage Boufal had was that he was very good at helping out defensively on the left side, usually when he ha d given the ball away). I don't know what the answer is though, we don't have many alternatives, Hojbjerg really does not fill me with confidence, we simply have some players who are off form, and perhaps we have to live with it until they can rediscover their touch.

[shurlock]

Stephens was marking Tosun, and was physically man-handling him preventing him coming in for the cross. Having seen to that Stephens then anticipates the cross to Richarlison, who was Cedric's man (yes, I can understand why people think these two were marking the wrong men but that's how it was) but it was too late to help out Cedric. Think you are being extremely harsh on Stephens for that goal. But then its harsh on cedric as well. As with the first ball, the fault is much further back and stems from poor play by our midfield and left sided defence. The free kick was given away by poor defending by Lemina and subsequently Hoedt. The second goal was gifted by a combination of Bertrand, Lemina and Redmond's total inability to deal with the long ball from I think Pickford. So many of our problems are blamed on our defenders, especially the CBs, but they are being let down time and again by our defensive midfield (Romeu and Lemina) and even dare I say it Bertrand. Our left side defensively is appalling at the moment, good players who are putting in shocking performances, way below the standard that we know they can achieve. I'm nt trying to defend Hoedt and Stephens, Hoedt in particular was abosuletly awful again on Saturday, but to be fair to them the plan had never been for them to play as CBs in a back 4, Hughes was clearly still hoping Jannik was going to play up to the last minute (he was not far away from being fit enough having travelled to the game, separately, and looked OK at the ground) so it was all a bit makeshift which doesn't help. Frankly I was expecting to lose by more than 1 goal/concede more than 2 so in the end it was not that bad, and if Ings shot had not been tipped on to the bar by Pickford things may have been very different. Still don't understand why Hughes picks Hoedt over Yoshida, buit in my view the biggest problem at the moment is getting the midfield and left sided defensive unit working properly, Romeu is completely off form and Lemina is a complete liability, Bertrand is also off form and having Redmond as the attacking midfielder on the left leaves us very exposed, because he provides nothing defensively (the one and only advantage Boufal had was that he was very good at helping out defensively on the left side, usually when he ha d given the ball away). I don't know what the answer is though, we don't have many alternatives, Hojbjerg really does not fill me with confidence, we simply have some players who are off form, and perhaps we have to live with it until they can rediscover their touch.

 

Watch the goal. Stephens was initially marking Tosun but then let’s him peel off and take up space behind. The reason is that Stephens hesitates and is attracted to the cross but doesn’t put it or Richarlison under any pressure. Perhaps mrfahiji is right and it was too late for him to do anything about the cross but either way, he’s now caught in no mans land, having come towards the ball and lost Tosun. What happens if the ball had been cleared and fallen to Tosun?

 

I agree - it’s not a huge error in this case. But it is symptomatic of Stephens indecision and questionable reading of the game. I also agree the defense is not only to blame. The midfield is misfiring: Romeu seems overrun; Hoj offers little or no ball control and Lemina is too indisciplined. Still, I’d probably play all three with Lemina further up the pitch as the midfield is too important an area to surrender control. It does concern me that in his game plan or substitutions, Hughes seems quite willing to bypass the midfield at times.

[WALK DMC]

I am no fan of Hoedt and Stephens, but due to the rush to find them culpable for everything the question of why Walcott was allowed time and space behind the defence to make his cross. It is very difficult as a Centre half to anticipate every possible scenario when a player can pick his cross. Bertrand closed down the player on the ball to stop them crossing it, who slipped it past him and into Walcott. Lemina was the closest and should have anticipated what was happening and supported Bertrand. It was schoolboy defending and if it wasn't for the desire to blame our center defence for everything it should have been highlighted as the main contributory factor to the 2nd goal. Once a winger is behind the defense, even the best defenders in the world struggle against a cross. Regardless, I hope we see Vestergard and Yoshi back for Leicester.

[VectisSaint]

I am no fan of Hoedt and Stephens, but due to the rush to find them culpable for everything the question of why Walcott was allowed time and space behind the defence to make his cross. It is very difficult as a Centre half to anticipate every possible scenario when a player can pick his cross. Bertrand closed down the player on the ball to stop them crossing it, who slipped it past him and into Walcott. Lemina was the closest and should have anticipated what was happening and supported Bertrand. It was schoolboy defending and if it wasn't for the desire to blame our center defence for everything it should have been highlighted as the main contributory factor to the 2nd goal. Once a winger is behind the defense, even the best defenders in the world struggle against a cross. Regardless, I hope we see Vestergard and Yoshi back for Leicester.

This is my point, its all very well blaming the CBs, but the real problem Saturday was the left side of our midfield/defence, Lemina, Bertrand, Romeu and to some extent Redmond. Three free kicks that Sigurdsson (sp.) took were all dangerous but did not lead to goals, all were conceded in this same area by the same group of players together with Hoedt. The free kick for the 1st goal also came from the same area and group of players (Lemina forced Hoedt into a ridiculous tackle). They are putting enoromous pressure on our 2 CBs, Cedric and McCarthy, and it is all completely unneccessary, and needs to be cut out. This is the area that really needs to be addressed, stop the problems at source, no centre backs will deal with all of these issues, I don't care how good they are.

[Faz]

If we'd been playing three at the back, that second goal doesn't get scored.

[Lord Duckhunter]

If we'd been playing three at the back, that second goal doesn't get scored.

 

Exactly.

 

I said in the Burnley thread where everybody was banging on about 4-4-2 that our full backs ( particularly Cedric) are not good enough, or playing well enough in a 4. Nothing I saw Sat made me change my mind, Bertrand was woeful first half and as you say, Cedric gets done from a cross again. When Bertrand & Cedric start to close wide men down to prevent crosses, when Cedric learns how to defend in the air, then maybe we can go to a 4. Until then let’s get back to what we did well last season under Hughes.

 

 

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[Cabbage_Face]

Can anyone name a RB or LB that doesn't get done in the air? It's a well know "tactic" of any good striker to peel away onto the RB or LB. Mess

[shurlock]

If we'd been playing three at the back, that second goal doesn't get scored.

 

Who knows? More generally having the pace of Walcott and Richarlison exploiting the space between the CBs and the wingbacks and having the opportunity to run directly at Hoedt and co. would have been ugly.

[Cabbage_Face]

Who knows? More generally having the pace of Walcott and Richarlison exploiting the space between the CBs and the wingbacks and running directly at Hoedt and co. would have been ugly.

 

 

He is the main problem. How he ever played for Lazio is beyond me.

[Faz]

Who knows? More generally having the pace of Walcott and Richarlison exploiting the space between the CBs and the wingbacks and having the opportunity to run directly at Hoedt and co. would have been ugly.

 

I guess you pay your money and take your choice.

[Graffito]

A winnable game we haven't won since 1987 or something ridiculous.

 

Yeah well we need to try a bit harder.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Can anyone name a RB or LB that doesn't get done in the air? It's a well know "tactic" of any good striker to peel away onto the RB or LB. Mess

 

Bertrand defends well in the air, in fact he’s one of the better ones. My issue with him is he doesn’t get out to the wide man quick enough to stop the cross, he’s can also be incredibly causal defensively. A full back will always be out jumped by a striker, but the decent ones will impede the run, get across the front of him, engage contact just before the cross, use all sorts to ensure the guy doesn’t get a clean header. Cedric always get done because he ends up in a straight jump with the striker, he never seems to know where he is, until it’s too late. with Bertrand giving the crosser too much time to pick a cross it’s a fatal combination. In a 5, he’ll get done in a wider or further out.

 

 

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[mrfahaji]

Bertrand defends well in the air, in fact he’s one of the better ones. My issue with him is he doesn’t get out to the wide man quick enough to stop the cross, he’s can also be incredibly causal defensively. A full back will always be out jumped by a striker, but the decent ones will impede the run, get across the front of him, engage contact just before the cross, use all sorts to ensure the guy doesn’t get a clean header. Cedric always get done because he ends up in a straight jump with the striker, he never seems to know where he is, until it’s too late. with Bertrand giving the crosser too much time to pick a cross it’s a fatal combination. In a 5, he’ll get done in a wider or further out.

 

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This is what I was alluding to in my earlier post, Richarlison gets far too easy a run at the ball. And it wasn't an unpredictable turn of events, from the starting position Cedric should have been aware (regardless of whether up to that point other players should have done better) of the danger aware and been more assertive in defending it.

 

I do wonder if in this case that's an example of match fitness, which we know Cedric isn't up to speed with yet. It might sound ridiculous but when you're not 100% sharp it's more the snap decisions and reactions which suffer, rather than your ability to run the length of the pitch. Football is usually won and lost by fine margins, and a split second of hesitation or ball watching can make the difference.

[OttawaSaint]

A winnable game we haven't won since 1987 or something ridiculous.

 

Kevin Davies would like a word...

 

1997.

[Lord Duckhunter]

This is what I was alluding to in my earlier post, Richarlison gets far too easy a run at the ball. And it wasn't an unpredictable turn of events, from the starting position Cedric should have been aware (regardless of whether up to that point other players should have done better) of the danger aware and been more assertive in defending it.

 

I do wonder if in this case that's an example of match fitness, which we know Cedric isn't up to speed with yet. It might sound ridiculous but when you're not 100% sharp it's more the snap decisions and reactions which suffer, rather than your ability to run the length of the pitch. Football is usually won and lost by fine margins, and a split second of hesitation or ball watching can make the difference.

 

I agree about the tiny margins and that match fitness affects that. Being match fit is different to being fit, an important % is in your head, your reactions. However, Cedric struggles in that aspect of the game even when in tune. I think he’s a fine player & it wouldn’t surprise me if a biggish foreign club came in for him, because that flaw in his game is magnified in England.

 

The 4-4-2 v 3 at the back or 5-3-2 or whatever, is a bit of a red herring anyway. Under Puel we played 4 at the back, yet the full backs pushed on and OR played extremely deep. So there wasn’t a world of difference between that & 3 centre halves with wing backs .

 

Personally I like 3 at the back the way Terry Venables played it, with 2 full backs beside 1 centre half. Bertrand could defo play that way, but clearly we’d need a RB who could. You then have 2 authentic wide men rather than full backs playing as the wing backs.

 

 

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