The World Cup Thread

[Baird of the land]

That should have been a red card imo. Ronaldo got a free pass because of his fame. Yellow card was such bottling. It’s either a red or nothing.

 

On the whole var is a mess, so much murky grey area to drive a truck through. Both penalties were down to interpretation. There have been similar handball penalties given this tournament and not overturned by var. Should they have been reviewed, probably not but the whole system is set up so that it’s a var team using imperfect human judgement to decide whether another human beings judgement was sufficiently dodgy to have incident reviewed once again by the imperfect human being on the pitch. Coupled with fact it massively disrupts the game means it should be ditched.

[Dark Munster]

That should have been a red card imo. Ronaldo got a free pass because of his fame. Yellow card was such bottling. It’s either a red or nothing.

 

On the whole var is a mess, so much murky grey area to drive a truck through. Both penalties were down to interpretation. There have been similar handball penalties given this tournament and not overturned by var. Should they have been reviewed, probably not but the whole system is set up so that it’s a var team using imperfect human judgement to decide whether another human beings judgement was sufficiently dodgy to have incident reviewed once again by the imperfect human being on the pitch. Coupled with fact it massively disrupts the game means it should be ditched.

I think we should ditch all cars as well, because there are so many bad drivers out there.

[GarrettIvo]

That should have been a red card imo. Ronaldo got a free pass because of his fame. Yellow card was such bottling. It’s either a red or nothing.

 

Then it's nothing. Christ on a cracker I really dislike Ronaldo but there was absolutely nothing in that incident at all.

[Hamilton Saint]

The ref was poor, but the players need to take responsibility. Diving, play acting, running to the ref etc. Utter disgrace. Can’t decide who I want to lose more, Portugal or Uruguay

 

Actually, Uruguay have been pretty fair. Not a lot of diving (except for Cavani), and I think they've only had one or two yellow cards so far. Portugal, on the other hand ....

[Graffito]

I’m trying to think back, has any ref stuck with his original decision having been asked by the VAR to view replays? As far as I can recollect, as soon as you see the ref running towards the telly you know the decision is going to get overturned. Certainly with all the penalties I can’t think of a single decision that hasn’t been reversed. It’s almost as if the refs are thinking the VAR thinks I’ve got this wrong so I’d better change my mind. There’s a lot of pressure on the ref in these moments, a lot more than with split second decisions during play, and it probably takes balls to stick with his original decision.

[The Cat]

Can't wait until Liverpool get a marginally controversial VAR decision go against them. The fallout will be magnificent.

[aintforever]

Nothing wrong with VAR, it doesn't matter how much technology you have if the ref is useless.

[hypochondriac]

The problem is now some refs have no confidence in their abilities and would rather defer the decision to VAR than trust their own instincts. It means we have a group of players crowding the ref begging for the technology to have a second look after every passage of play and a ref who looks weak and nervous going to look on a little screen at anything vaguely controversial- clear and obvious my a*se!- it slows down the game and is being used in some instances as a safety feature. In all the var influences decisions last night that I saw, the original decision should have stood.

[Wes Tender]

The Cedric handball decision was farcical. If the judgement of the referee is that it was handball, then he deserves to be demoted to pub match level, where he belongs. Cedric had a good game in my opinion. VAR in the World Cup has been very variable. Quite why it wasn't used to award two penalties for Kane against Tunisia, but gave us two penalties against Panama under similar circumstances is a mystery. Some consistency would be nice.

[shurlock]

The Cedric handball decision was farcical. If the judgement of the referee is that it was handball, then he deserves to be demoted to pub match level, where he belongs. Cedric had a good game in my opinion. VAR in the World Cup has been very variable. Quite why it wasn't used to award two penalties for Kane against Tunisia, but gave us two penalties against Panama under similar circumstances is a mystery. Some consistency would be nice.

 

Wouldn't say the pens against Panama were inconsistent Les. FIFA came out after the Tunisia game and stated that the pens should have been awarded. It seems that the officials in the Panama took that feedback onboard and applied it. That's called learning. Now if Kane is denied similar penalties in future games, that would be inconsistent.

[Window Cleaner]

Strange games last evening. Spain even looked as if they were trying to avoid topping their group. Probably just an impression though and they were simply having an off day. Still, avoiding the host nation in the knockout stages could be considered wise.

[aintforever]

If the judgement of the referee is that it was handball, then he deserves to be demoted to pub match level, where he belongs. .

 

That's the best thing about VAR - it shows up the incompetent fools for what they are. The dickhead who refereed last night can't hide behind the 'didn't see it' excuse. There will always be wrong decisions regardless of VAR and the quality of ref.

 

VAR has worked well so far IMO, last nights mess was due to FIFA's obsession with picking refs from tin pot leagues around the World who cannot handle it when dumped into the big stage. He didn't have the confidence to trust his own decision above VAR and didn't have the bottle to send off a megastar.

[shurlock]

The problem is now some refs have no confidence in their abilities and would rather defer the decision to VAR than trust their own instincts. It means we have a group of players crowding the ref begging for the technology to have a second look after every passage of play and a ref who looks weak and nervous going to look on a little screen at anything vaguely controversial- clear and obvious my a*se!- it slows down the game and is being used in some instances as a safety feature. In all the var influences decisions last night that I saw, the original decision should have stood.

 

Very difficult to back yourself when not one but three refs in the VAR control room, come back and tell you to look at an incident again, especially when you might have had an imperfect view of it to begin with. Moreover the reviews that come back to the ref are precisely the ones that the VAR officials feel most confident about. Frankly the Soares handball is on the VAR officials, not last night's ref (as bad as he was).

[hypochondriac]

Very difficult to back yourself when not one but three refs in the VAR control room, come back and tell you to look at an incident again, especially when you might have had an imperfect view of it to begin with. Moreover the reviews that come back to the ref are precisely the ones that the VAR officials feel most confident about. Frankly the Soares handball is on the VAR officials, not last night's ref.

Well then the var officials need looking at and how often they communicate with the ref. The yellow card on Ronaldo last night was another ridiculous decision- either it's an elbow and thus a red card or it's nothing. The ref wasn't certain so the original decision should have stood, not giving a yellow just because he feels he should do something.

[sandwichsaint]

Time for an exclusion zone around refs? We had got rid of a lot of this in our football a few years ago and did for one season (?) (send for the9) have a policy where only the captain could speak to the ref. The mob handling/rushing/appealing everything is spoiling what has otherwise been the 'best' WC for me since Argentine 78.

 

Once the ref blows his whistle for a decision any player encroaching within 5m of the ref yellow, within 2.5m of the ref, red card!

 

I never wanted VAR and would be quite happy if they binned it tomorrow and went back to just goal line technology. I accept that won't happen and that it's still in it's infancy but even with that it is shambolic as currently operated (it needs big screen replays and audible comms between the ref and the truck). It can't cover for a weak or incompetent ref, I just LOL every time there's a bad decision at all those who thought it would be 100% and we would never ever ever see a wrong decision again. We have seen just as many 'wrong' decisions with it as before we had it.

[shurlock]

Well then the var officials need looking at and how often they communicate with the ref. The yellow card on Ronaldo last night was another ridiculous decision- either it's an elbow and thus a red card or it's nothing. The ref wasn't certain so the original decision should have stood, not giving a yellow just because he feels he should do something.

 

Probably too complex but I'd separate the var refs in the control room - too easy for seniority and peer pressure to win the day. I can't believe three professional refs looking at the Soares incident independently would have all deemed it a handball. And if you're splitting refs -whether it's 2 or 3 refs in the control room- make it a requirement that for any decision to go back to the ref, it must be unanimous.

[shurlock]

Time for an exclusion zone around refs? We had got rid of a lot of this in our football a few years ago and did for one season (?) (send for the9) have a policy where only the captain could speak to the ref. The mob handling/rushing/appealing everything is spoiling what has otherwise been the 'best' WC for me since Argentine 78.

 

Once the ref blows his whistle for a decision any player encroaching within 5m of the ref yellow, within 2.5m of the ref, red card!

 

I never wanted VAR and would be quite happy if they binned it tomorrow and went back to just goal line technology. I accept that won't happen and that it's still in it's infancy but even with that it is shambolic as currently operated (it needs big screen replays and audible comms between the ref and the truck). It can't cover for a weak or incompetent ref, I just LOL every time there's a bad decision at all those who thought it would be 100% and we would never ever ever see a wrong decision again. We have seen just as many 'wrong' decisions with it as before we had it.

 

VAR has made more good calls than bad calls, so it's a net improvement in my book. Can't think of any other 'fair' baseline against which to judge it.

[Lighthouse]

The best improvement to VAR I can think of is to have the officials in the video room make the actual decision IF they are certain a mistake has been made. We don't need the ref to run over and look himself if a qualified referee has already reviewed the video.

 

Agree with whoever mentioned booking for delaying a free kick. Refs seem really slack on bookings for kicking the ball away after a foul. It should be an instant booking for anyone who picks up the ball, holds it behind their back for a few seconds, throws it in the other direction etc.

[sandwichsaint]

VAR has made more good calls than bad calls, so it's a net improvement in my book. Can't think of any other 'fair' baseline against which to judge it.

 

Fair comment, there is no obvious control group or baseline against which to judge it (except the purely subjective measure of how much you 'enjoyed' watching the previous version of football as against the current one).

 

You have swapped a net gain of 'more correct decisions' for a game that now appears to have more diving/cheating/appealing, more breaks in play, possibly more pressure on the ref (v refs bottling big decisions and relying on somebody else to have a second look for them). Halves that routinely run to 50 mins+. And arguably fewer (LOL!) talking points; controversies and we wuz robbed stories are part of the game's weft and weave. Take those away and it's all run by three blokes in a car park 500 miles away. I've never been to a VAR game but it must be bizarre, players and fans standing around for two minutes plus with no idea if you're supposed to be celebrating a goal or not.

 

I'm sure the modern family-fans and the Xbox/FIFA generation lap it all up but it's not for me.

[sandwichsaint]

And the one obvious improvement - bring in central timing, the ref indicates when the clock is running/stopped, big stadium clock, when we get to 45 mins it's a rugby style finish.

[hypochondriac]

Probably too complex but I'd separate the var refs in the control room - too easy for seniority and peer pressure to win the day. I can't believe three professional refs looking at the Soares incident independently would have all deemed it a handball. And if you're splitting refs -whether it's 2 or 3 refs in the control room- make it a requirement that for any decision to go back to the ref, it must be unanimous.

 

Except that it may not have been that they thought it was a handball- they just thought there was enough of an element of doubt about it to warrant the ref having another look at it.

[shurlock]

Fair comment, there is no obvious control group or baseline against which to judge it (except the purely subjective measure of how much you 'enjoyed' watching the previous version of football as against the current one).

 

You have swapped a net gain of 'more correct decisions' for a game that now appears to have more diving/cheating/appealing, more breaks in play, possibly more pressure on the ref (v refs bottling big decisions and relying on somebody else to have a second look for them). Halves that routinely run to 50 mins+. And arguably fewer (LOL!) talking points; controversies and we wuz robbed stories are part of the game's weft and weave. Take those away and it's all run by three blokes in a car park 500 miles away. I've never been to a VAR game but it must be bizarre, players and fans standing around for two minutes plus with no idea if you're supposed to be celebrating a goal or not.

 

I'm sure the modern family-fans and the Xbox/FIFA generation lap it all up but it's not for me.

 

Can see where you’re coming from -agree it’s led to more appealing for VAR, though, in principle, that could be stamped it out by booking players or even giving sides a fixed number of challenges, as happens in other sports.

 

Not so sure it’s led to more cheating or diving. Quite the opposite - it’s now harder to get away with that kind of gamesmanship when they can be reviewed (see Neymar).

 

The goal reviews are probably the shortest part of the VAR process, though agree other incidents can take longer. Still we’re currently talking about two or three incidents per game. Maybe it’s just me but have actually found VAR has added to the drama of the game - certainly given it an edge when sides/supporters have had a decision overturned against them. But maybe that’s just the novelty factor.

[shurlock]

Except that it may not have been that they thought it was a handball- they just thought there was enough of an element of doubt about it to warrant the ref having another look at it.

 

If so, the system requires far more communication betweem the VAR officials and the ref to explain precisely the basis on which they’re sending back a decision and their level of confidence (something you point out).

[Lighthouse]

And the one obvious improvement - bring in central timing, the ref indicates when the clock is running/stopped, big stadium clock, when we get to 45 mins it's a rugby style finish.

 

I agree, although it would likely be 35 or 40 minute halves, which would equate to the actual in play time of an average game at the moment. Basically other sports have the answers to most of our problems, football is just a bit behind getting into the 21st century.

 

Players appealing for VAR - Only the captain can ask (other players get booked), fix number of challenges per half - As per cricket and tennis.

No clear and obvious error - Stick with 'umpires decision' - As per cricket.

Time wasting - Stop the clock for stoppages, the game ends when the ball goes out for a throw in or GK after time is up - As per rugby

[Nordic Saint]

Except that it may not have been that they thought it was a handball- they just thought there was enough of an element of doubt about it to warrant the ref having another look at it.

 

It looked as though the ball accidentaly brushed Cedric's arm on the way down from his head but on closer inspection I'm not even sure it did that. You'd have to freeze-frame it to be 100% sure that the ball even touched his arm. What makes it worse is that it affects the draw for the final 16 and may have long-term consequences for which teams reach the final.

[hypochondriac]

I agree, although it would likely be 35 or 40 minute halves, which would equate to the actual in play time of an average game at the moment. Basically other sports have the answers to most of our problems, football is just a bit behind getting into the 21st century.

 

Players appealing for VAR - Only the captain can ask (other players get booked), fix number of challenges per half - As per cricket and tennis.

No clear and obvious error - Stick with 'umpires decision' - As per cricket.

Time wasting - Stop the clock for stoppages, the game ends when the ball goes out for a throw in or GK after time is up - As per rugby

Agree with that. Get the var officials to make the decision not the referee on a little monitor on the side of the pitch. If there is any ambiguity at all then the refs decision stands.

[benjii]

The best improvement to VAR I can think of is to have the officials in the video room make the actual decision IF they are certain a mistake has been made. We don't need the ref to run over and look himself if a qualified referee has already reviewed the video.

 

Agree with whoever mentioned booking for delaying a free kick. Refs seem really slack on bookings for kicking the ball away after a foul. It should be an instant booking for anyone who picks up the ball, holds it behind their back for a few seconds, throws it in the other direction etc.

 

Agree with all of this. Football could easily stamp out dissent, time wasting, etc. with a few changes in approach.

 

Thinking back to last night, whilst the Cedric handball was a big error, over the two matches I think there were 4 VAR decisions:

 

1 - Portugal penalty. Original decision by ref: wrong. VAR review led to correct outcome. It was a clear foul.

 

2 - Ronaldo yellow card. Original decision by ref - didn't see it. VAR review - probably correct. It wasn't violent conduct but was probably a little too robust.

 

3 - Cedric handball. Original decision, correct. VAR decision, wrong. No idea why it was referred back to the ref.

 

4 - Spain goal. VAR confirmed that Aspaz was onside.

 

So, despite all the furore, that's 3 out of 4 incidents where VAR improved the outcome.

 

They need to tweak the referral process to make it faster and less intrusive but on the whole it seems to be producing better outcomes.

[hypochondriac]

Agree with all of this. Football could easily stamp out dissent, time wasting, etc. with a few changes in approach.

 

Thinking back to last night, whilst the Cedric handball was a big error, over the two matches I think there were 4 VAR decisions:

 

1 - Portugal penalty. Original decision by ref: wrong. VAR review led to correct outcome. It was a clear foul.

 

2 - Ronaldo yellow card. Original decision by ref - didn't see it. VAR review - probably correct. It wasn't violent conduct but was probably a little too robust.

 

3 - Cedric handball. Original decision, correct. VAR decision, wrong. No idea why it was referred back to the ref.

 

4 - Spain goal. VAR confirmed that Aspaz was onside.

 

So, despite all the furore, that's 3 out of 4 incidents where VAR improved the outcome.

 

They need to tweak the referral process to make it faster and less intrusive but on the whole it seems to be producing better outcomes.

I don't think Ronaldo was a yellow card. The fact it's not definitive means the original decision should stand. So that's 2 out of 4 and even the Portugal penalty decision was debated by some.

[shurlock]

I don't think Ronaldo was a yellow card. The fact it's not definitive means the original decision should stand. So that's 2 out of 4 and even the Portugal penalty decision was debated by some.

 

It was intentional and petulant. Robust as someone else described it is inaccurate. It’s not as if he had gone in overzealously for a tackle that was there to be won. He had no business putting his arm out as he did.

Edited 26 June, 2018 by shurlock

[northam soul]

It was intentional and petulant. Robust as someone else described it is inaccurate. It’s not as if he had gone in overzealously for a tackle that was there to be won. He had no business putting his arm out as he did.

 

It was an intentional elbow without the swinging of the arm so he should have been punished accordingly. Not really sure how it could of been a booking to be honest.

[Micky]

I don't think Ronaldo was a yellow card. The fact it's not definitive means the original decision should stand. So that's 2 out of 4 and even the Portugal penalty decision was debated by some.

 

And ultimately this is the whole problem with VAR. VAR is the technology, it allows you to see incidents in different angles, slow it down, analyse what has happened - but it doesn't make decisions.

 

Decisions are made by humans and unfortunately they err and don't always see things the way another human has seen them. One of you thinks its a yellow, the other doesn't, fwiw when I watched it yesterday I couldn't make up my mind what it was after seeing tons of replays. So all of these things are subjective, they are still open to interpretation and, to some extent based on opinion.

 

Some decisions are obviously more clear cut than others, but still we (appear) to get them wrong. The Cedric penalty, personally I just don't see a penalty in there even though it does appear to hit his upper arm. Initially the ref waves it away almost routinely, however he then gets told to review it with VAR and changes him mind. Personally I think he is influenced by the fact that 5 qualified referees have asked him to review it and he thinks that they believe he has his original call wrong.

 

Technology and humans don't always mix well!

[Micky]

I don't think Ronaldo was a yellow card. The fact it's not definitive means the original decision should stand. So that's 2 out of 4 and even the Portugal penalty decision was debated by some.

 

And ultimately this is the whole problem with VAR. VAR is the technology, it allows you to see incidents in different angles, slow it down, analyse what has happened - but it doesn't make decisions.

 

Decisions are made by humans and unfortunately they err and don't always see things the way another human has seen them. One of you thinks its a yellow, the other doesn't, fwiw when I watched it yesterday I couldn't make up my mind what it was after seeing tons of replays. So all of these things are subjective, they are still open to interpretation and, to some extent based on opinion.

 

Some decisions are obviously more clear cut than others, but still we (appear) to get them wrong. The Cedric penalty, personally I just don't see a penalty in there even though it does appear to hit his upper arm. Initially the ref waves it away almost routinely, however he then gets told to review it with VAR and changes him mind. Personally I think he is influenced by the fact that 5 qualified referees have asked him to review it and he thinks that they believe he has his original call wrong.

 

Technology and humans don't always mix well!

[shurlock]

It was an intentional elbow without the swinging of the arm so he should have been punished accordingly. Not really sure how it could of been a booking to be honest.

 

Refs ultimately vary in their interpretation -some look purely at the intent; others look at the intent and the outcome and others infer the intent from the outcome. The Iranian was brushed; rather than getting an elbow full in the noggin.

 

It’s like head butting: it’s seemingly ok to square up with an opponent and push them with the butt of your head; but it’s not ok if there’s any flick of the head.

Edited 26 June, 2018 by shurlock

[benjii]

It was intentional and petulant. Robust as someone else described it is inaccurate. It’s not as if he had gone in overzealously for a tackle that was there to be won. He had no business putting his arm out as he did.

 

He was trying to shrug off the guy who was deliberately impeding him moving towards the ball. He was fouled and responded a bit too vigorously but the arm action was a brushing-off, not an impact swing. Correct decision.

 

Those who disagree are armchair fans who never played and got picked last at school. Fact.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Agree with that. Get the var officials to make the decision not the referee on a little monitor on the side of the pitch. If there is any ambiguity at all then the refs decision stands.

 

Not going to happen, FIFA are adamant the final decision must be down to the on pitch referee. Rightly so imo. The issues yesterday wasn’t the VAR, the issue was poor refereeing.

 

I was totally against any technology being involved, but seeing it in action has changed my mind. The problems are not down to VAR but pundits not understanding its remit, players still arguing and referees still making very poor decisions.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Edited 26 June, 2018 by Lord Duckhunter

[OttawaSaint]

Think we might be getting the first 0-0 match. This France vs Denmark game has 0-0 written all over it.

[edprice1984]

Looking like we could get our first 0-0. France and Denmark both through courtesy of Peru beating the Shackle draggers. The more I see of the french, the less I am worried about them. Disjointed, no shape, their big players either look out of form or knackered. No doubt they will improve, but should Messi manage to rescue the Argies tonight I doubt Deschamps would be looking forward to playing them in the next round.

[hypochondriac]

Not going to happen, FIFA are adamant the final decision must be down to the on pitch referee. Rightly so imo. The issues yesterday wasn’t the VAR, the issue was poor refereeing.

 

I was totally against any technology being involved, but seeing it in action has changed my mind. The problems are not down to VAR but pundits not understanding its remit, players still arguing and referees still making very poor decisions.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I disagree. The very presence of var itself is making referees second guess themselves and rely on the technology rather than trusting themselves in way too many decisions. Stopping the game for goodness knows how long over what appears a very straight forward decision is farcical.

[hypochondriac]

It was intentional and petulant. Robust as someone else described it is inaccurate. It’s not as if he had gone in overzealously for a tackle that was there to be won. He had no business putting his arm out as he did.

Then it should be a straight red if that's what you think.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I disagree. The very presence of var itself is making referees second guess themselves and rely on the technology rather than trusting themselves in way too many decisions. Stopping the game for goodness knows how long over what appears a very straight forward decision is farcical.

 

Exactly as I said. Poor refereeing is the issue, not VAR.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[hypochondriac]

Exactly as I said. Poor refereeing is the issue, not VAR.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Guess you missed the bit where I said the very presence of var is causing referees to second guess themselves. We won't be getting AI referees for the foreseeable future so I don't think var is the answer when you have the fallibility of a human ref who feels undermined by the technology and has their confidence to make any sort of decisions removed purely because of the existence of var.

[shurlock]

Guess you missed the bit where I said the very presence of var is causing referees to second guess themselves. We won't be getting AI referees for the foreseeable future so I don't think var is the answer when you have the fallibility of a human ref who feels undermined by the technology and has their confidence to make any sort of decisions removed purely because of the existence of var.

 

Are they second-guessing themselves if they didn't have a good initial view of the incident?

[Hamilton Saint]

Highlight of the tournament, so far.

 

[hypochondriac]

Are they second-guessing themselves if they didn't have a good initial view of the incident?

As an example the ref clearly had a good view of the soares handball. Ordinarily he would have waved away the penalty and carried on but the presence of var makes it too tempting to just use the technology and then he ended up reversing his decision which was correct in the first place. If the ref doesn't see something then that's different.

[Wes Tender]

delete

[Wes Tender]

And the one obvious improvement - bring in central timing, the ref indicates when the clock is running/stopped, big stadium clock, when we get to 45 mins it's a rugby style finish.

 

Agree completely. It would also have the positive side-effect of cutting out unnecessary time-wasting too. Nothing annoys me more than a substitution when a player leaves the pitch at a pace that would make your average tortoise look pacy. Stop the clock and stop the reason for running it down.

[OttawaSaint]

Messi...

[whelk]

Love Messi - would love him to outshine the Portuguese ponce at this WC which probably his last. Conflict with hating the Argies though

[whelk]

We should’ve signed Banega

[Batman]

Serves the Camera operator right for being a pervert