ALWAYS_SFC Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 think he meant Hull. I did , now edited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DT Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 I understand why they did it, although I too thought it odd at the time, but Shane Long's extension? I'll never understand that one. We can't shift FF due to his wages, that's a fact. For once I can't say what I've been told on an open message board, but I know teams have certainly enquired regarding a loan (neither from the PL) and then baulked at what they'd still have to pay in wages AFTER we'd paid 50%. For this deal alone Les (presumably) should have been asked to have fallen on his sword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 The way I read Hughes' comments is that wages have to come off the wage bill rather than transfer funds being the issue per se. So the crazy rises to Fraser amongst others are an issue, Celta may be paying a lesser % of Boufal's etc and probably ditto when Clasie re-joins Feyenoord. Plus there's lots of ex-academy players probably on too much. I dare not even mention Carrillo, more like Carillion... Les had such a disasterous time 2016 onwards with his 'new direction' that it can't all be put right in one window. The club is where it is, staying up with a few more points to spare and rebuilding the squad over a few windows going back to quality over quantity is the order of the day until some of these contracts are off the books. Its a combination of wages and only having space officially in the Squad for 25 players over the age of 21. Lets hope we can shift a few more players out to get rid of their wages and free up a squad place or too. We desperately need another good centre back and goal scorer not to mention another winger. But I expect we will have to subsidise the wages of Forster and Clasie wherever they go anyway like I expect we are doing with Carillo and Boufal. Lets hope its easier to get rid of Long and Davis as they haven't got as long to go on their contracts. But I fear we will be stuck with them too - or have to subsidise them as well. I can see us selling Yoshida to a club in Japan just because he will be one of the ones we can move on - same with Gallagher. Question - were any of the players we gave extended and increased contracts too worth it? Reed has left us in a right mess with his signings and enhanced contracts over the last couple of seasons - and I think it will take us quite a while to get out of the mess. Do we have the squad places we need to improve the team right now? No! Do we have the room on the wage bill to add players right now? No! Why? Because Reed made a lot of bad signings and gave a lot of average players big salaries they didn't deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 imagine the utter state we would have been in had we got relegated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 I understand why they did it, although I too thought it odd at the time, but Shane Long's extension? I'll never understand that one. We can't shift FF due to his wages, that's a fact. For once I can't say what I've been told on an open message board, but I know teams have certainly enquired regarding a loan (neither from the PL) and then baulked at what they'd still have to pay in wages AFTER we'd paid 50%. Very interesting thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintadam Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 I don’t think it is quite fair to questioning the club for giving out long contracts. Before that there were complaints that we didn’t give longer contracts which led us to sell sooner than we wanted/or get a much reduced transfer fee. Fraser Forster was very good for us, when he got his knee injury everyone was desperate to see his return. Directly after the injury he was immense and most fans were delighted to see him back. Things has changed since obviously but I can understand why the club gave him a nice contract, being English and reaching is prime age for a keeper could’ve made him a target for the top clubs. Probably we will se a more cautious club now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint1977 Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 I understand why they did it, although I too thought it odd at the time, but Shane Long's extension? I'll never understand that one. We can't shift FF due to his wages, that's a fact. For once I can't say what I've been told on an open message board, but I know teams have certainly enquired regarding a loan (neither from the PL) and then baulked at what they'd still have to pay in wages AFTER we'd paid 50%. Blimey, wow, Les really did surpass himself there. The Long extension I kind of got because he’d just had the best top flight season of his career (still not prolific but good) under Ronald. 4 years was too long at Shane’s age (no pun intended) and also Les then hired two managers who were never going to play to his strengths. The Fraser extension was very strange, he’d had a poor season and had already been awarded a long contract along with VVD the year before. I think the club should be taking a closer look there, something doesn’t add up. That is before the Carrillo disaster. Some track record Les has in the last 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintadam Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 Its a combination of wages and only having space officially in the Squad for 25 players over the age of 21. Lets hope we can shift a few more players out to get rid of their wages and free up a squad place or too. We desperately need another good centre back and goal scorer not to mention another winger. But I expect we will have to subsidise the wages of Forster and Clasie wherever they go anyway like I expect we are doing with Carillo and Boufal. Lets hope its easier to get rid of Long and Davis as they haven't got as long to go on their contracts. But I fear we will be stuck with them too - or have to subsidise them as well. I can see us selling Yoshida to a club in Japan just because he will be one of the ones we can move on - same with Gallagher. Question - were any of the players we gave extended and increased contracts too worth it? Reed has left us in a right mess with his signings and enhanced contracts over the last couple of seasons - and I think it will take us quite a while to get out of the mess. Do we have the squad places we need to improve the team right now? No! Do we have the room on the wage bill to add players right now? No! Why? Because Reed made a lot of bad signings and gave a lot of average players big salaries they didn't deserve. Yoshida is our best defender now. Can’t see that he is on the list of players that the club wanna get rid off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 Yoshida is our best defender now. Can’t see that he is on the list of players that the club wanna get rid off. From third or fourth choice to 'best defender' in about three years. That's either some progress on his part, or some decline of the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint1977 Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 I don’t think it is quite fair to questioning the club for giving out long contracts. Before that there were complaints that we didn’t give longer contracts which led us to sell sooner than we wanted/or get a much reduced transfer fee. Fraser Forster was very good for us, when he got his knee injury everyone was desperate to see his return. Directly after the injury he was immense and most fans were delighted to see him back. Things has changed since obviously but I can understand why the club gave him a nice contract, being English and reaching is prime age for a keeper could’ve made him a target for the top clubs. Probably we will se a more cautious club now. I think it’s wholly fair - new 5 year bumper deal when your keeper has had a poor season and he’s only recently penned a long term one before that. In fact, it’s only right to scrutinise it closely. Imagine if Harry Redknapp had been DoF had been setting up contracts like that and the sort of things people would be writing on here! As Blackmore says, Les loved the sunshine in 2014-16 but less keen since then, in fact Les Lucan. If you make the very costly bloopers Les has as his level in any business, you’d be well on your bike by now and in oubluc. So he’s a lucky boy as far as I’m concerned. He’s hamstrung us fir the next 4 years with Forster, the only way out is if FF takes a free transfer with a fraction of his wages. If he wants first team football somewhere else he had better embrace that as a reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsaint Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 Yoshida is our best defender now. Can’t see that he is on the list of players that the club wanna get rid off. Vestergaard written off after 45 mins. Good job. Hoedt and Bednarek performed well under Hughes and have the ability to push on this season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 Vestergaard written off after 45 mins. Good job. Hoedt and Bednarek performed well under Hughes and have the ability to push on this season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 Is this the most uninspiring summer in the last 4 seasons? Or have I missed something? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 Vestergaard written off after 45 mins. Good job. Hoedt and Bednarek performed well under Hughes and have the ability to push on this season How is he writing off Vestergaard? Currently most people would class Yoshida as our best CB Vestergaard may well turn out to be our best CB but no one is going to call that after 45 mins of a friendly game. As for Hoedt you are having a laugh total calamity of a CB. Together with Jack Stephens the two of them are like the keystone cops at the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appy Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 Yoshida is our best defender now. Can’t see that he is on the list of players that the club wanna get rid off. Sums up how bad our recruiting has been if that’s true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 I think Hoedt is probably where Maya was a couple of years ago. Has promise but needs time to learn, there's a 'mistake a game' in him, and some of those will lead to goals against. Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintadam Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 Why do people have such difficulties at acknowledging Yoshida for being a very good CB. He was hailed in Japan for his World Cup performances. In the game against Belgium he was immense and denying Lukaku time after time with crucial blocks and interventions. He’s not letting us down anymore he’s doing a great job.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatlesaint Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 Is this the most uninspiring summer in the last 4 seasons? Or have I missed something? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk You been in hibernation the past two years since Ron left have ya ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faz Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 From third or fourth choice to 'best defender' in about three years. That's either some progress on his part, or some decline of the squad. People forget how young, and relatively inexperienced Yoshida San was when he joined us. He’s been here for 6 years and is now approach8ng peak maturity for a CB. It is perfectly feasible for him to have significantly improved. I believe he has. We’ve had a pretty good return for the £3m fee we paid imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNSUN Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 The BBC website gave Hoedt MOTM against Swansea second to last game of the season. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43353971 Fingers crossed he comes good. Looking forward to see if Vestergaard fills him with confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 So nothing to do with transfer funds. Most likely our signings this summer have maxed out how much we can spend on wages under the Short Term Cost Control regulations and we now have to shift players off the wage bill, either by selling or on loan, to make room for new ones. Please don't quote Glasgow. A lot of us have him on ignore to avoid those irritating animated gifs. Ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsaint Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 We conceded 3 goals in our last 5 games which ultimately helped keep us up (two of which were the late goals against Everton and City). Hoedt played every minute of those games and did very well (should mention that our 'best' defender Yoshida was stupidly sent off against Everton and missed the biggest game of the season). Dont let the facts get in the way of you using Hoedt as your preferred fall guy. Im not saying hes superb but give him a chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 We conceded 3 goals in our last 5 games which ultimately helped keep us up (two of which were the late goals against Everton and City). Hoedt played every minute of those games and did very well (should mention that our 'best' defender Yoshida was stupidly sent off against Everton and missed the biggest game of the season). Dont let the facts get in the way of you using Hoedt as your preferred fall guy. Im not saying hes superb but give him a chance That's a non sequitur - there are myriad reasons why we conceded only three goals in five games -McCarthy making a string of saves against Bournemouth and Swansea and Everton being absolutely gash in front of goal for starters. They don't necessarily have much to do with Hoedt. And you did say under Hughes: what about the 9 we conceded against West Ham, Chelsea and an Arsenal second XI? In particular, I don't remember Hoedt covering in glory against Wham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Pete Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 From third or fourth choice to 'best defender' in about three years. That's either some progress on his part, or some decline of the squad. It’s both. Yoshi has definitely got better but we don’t have any defender near the level of Toby, Van Dijk or Fonte (at his peak) now. Obviously we have to wait and see what level Vestergaard is at but fair to assume he will need some time to settle in the Prem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 It’s both. Yoshi has definitely got better but we don’t have any defender near the level of Toby, Van Dijk or Fonte (at his peak) now. Obviously we have to wait and see what level Vestergaard is at but fair to assume he will need some time to settle in the Prem. Spurs trying to offload Toby Alderweireld for 75m.....gotta larf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 I think Hoedt is probably where Maya was a couple of years ago. Has promise but needs time to learn, there's a 'mistake a game' in him, and some of those will lead to goals against. Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk Maya was always quick. Hoedt never will be. Maya was a great buy. Hoedt wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 Maya was always quick. Hoedt never will be. Maya was a great buy. Hoedt wasn't. Too early to write off Hoedt even though he had a very poor first season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 Too early to write off Hoedt even though he had a very poor first season. do you see a dominating centre back in there somewhere? Would be nice if there was otherwise we will have the same old problems and need to hide him and others in a very restricting five man defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimatt Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 Too early to write off Hoedt even though he had a very poor first season. He wasn't good enough for Lazio in the much slower/less physical Italian league so he was always going to be up against it here. One thing i'll give him though is he could perhaps be a totally different (competent) player if he had a strong experienced CB beside him. He doesn't have it easy with who his CB partners are in this league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 imagine the utter state we would have been in had we got relegated dare I say it, that was what Sunderland fans were saying the summer before their relegating season. Ducked a bullet then failed to reload correctly. Have we really found any ammunition this summer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 He wasn't good enough for Lazio in the much slower/less physical Italian league so he was always going to be up against it here. One thing i'll give him though is he could perhaps be a totally different (competent) player if he had a strong experienced CB beside him. He doesn't have it easy with who his CB partners are in this league. having a five man defence makes it ****ing easy if you ask me, but quite simply neither our back four or nor our holding midflelders were good enough to go toe to toe with opponents. Not sure its much better now either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 That's a non sequitur - there are myriad reasons why we conceded only three goals in five games -McCarthy making a string of saves against Bournemouth and Swansea and Everton being absolutely gash in front of goal for starters. They don't necessarily have much to do with Hoedt. And you did say under Hughes: what about the 9 we conceded against West Ham, Chelsea and an Arsenal second XI? In particular, I don't remember Hoedt covering in glory against Wham. he looked as dodgy as ever. I shudder at the thought of a him and Vestergaard pairing. Carthorse slow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint IQ Posted 23 July, 2018 Share Posted 23 July, 2018 Is this the most uninspiring summer in the last 4 seasons? Or have I missed something? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Last Summer was worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tajjuk Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 He wasn't good enough for Lazio Not really true, he played 48 league games for them over two seasons, they just had good competition for places. Hoedt had some good games last year but as standard the level of writing of players on here is hilarious. Personally I'd say he was average in a bad team but of course now a guy who's played for Lazio and Holland is a terrible defender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSAINT Posted 24 July, 2018 Author Share Posted 24 July, 2018 I still think Ely has unfair expectations having to fill in for Tadic. We've further blunted our already blunt attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disconnect Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 The BBC website gave Hoedt MOTM against Swansea second to last game of the season. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43353971 Fingers crossed he comes good. Looking forward to see if Vestergaard fills him with confidence. He was immense in that Swansea game. Dont know why he gets so much hate, clearly better than Stephens (at centre back anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tajjuk Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 He was immense in that Swansea game. Dont know why he gets so much hate, clearly better than Stephens (at centre back anyway). Also whoscored ratings for him over the last 5 league games of the season were 8.16, 7.13, 7.43, 7.97, 7.26, which suggests that Hughes was getting the best out of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBitterne Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 He was immense in that Swansea game. Dont know why he gets so much hate, clearly better than Stephens (at centre back anyway). Fully agree! Hoedt passing range is far superior too, I think he suffered a drop confidence and thus performance like most of the team last year did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Saint Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 It’s both. Yoshi has definitely got better but we don’t have any defender near the level of Toby, Van Dijk or Fonte (at his peak) now. Obviously we have to wait and see what level Vestergaard is at but fair to assume he will need some time to settle in the Prem. If you look at Yoshida last season and a half he has been holding the hands of 2 green centre backs and one fresh into the PL, plus playing with someone who until January couldn’t give a tinkers cuss about playing for Saints, prior to that he was in and out of the team. Unfortunately he is one of those players who needs to play every week, leave him out and rust sets in quickly, which is where he acquired a (permanent in some quarters) tag of an accident waiting to happen and not very good, that said Fonte was capable of even worse expensive howlers but because he played every week they were diluted, and was easily forgiven. If you actually watch Yoshida with no pre determined agenda he reads the game extremely well, and is far better than he is given credit for, especially on here. Hopefully with a more experienced defender like Vestergaard alongside him he won’t be needing to take to the pitch with a fire extinguisher in one hand to put out fires either side of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 Still need a CB and a ST, and arguably another wide player...work to be done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpin4rizeal Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 This needing players out for us to buy brings me back to my former point about buying gunn, if we cannot get rid of Forster it seems like we are wasting a transfer here to bring in a goalkeeper who probably sits on bench majority of the year bar injury. I'm not saying gunn is bad or Fraser is great as number two just we have bigger holes to plug elsewhere.. like another winger especially now boufal is gone.: another good defensive signing as nearly all of our centre backs are pants, and would also be looking at another striker too before signing back up keepers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSAINT Posted 24 July, 2018 Author Share Posted 24 July, 2018 Still need a CB and a ST, and arguably another wide player...work to be done... Well get 1 more if we're lucky, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 This needing players out for us to buy brings me back to my former point about buying gunn, if we cannot get rid of Forster it seems like we are wasting a transfer here to bring in a goalkeeper who probably sits on bench majority of the year bar injury. I'm not saying gunn is bad or Fraser is great as number two just we have bigger holes to plug elsewhere.. like another winger especially now boufal is gone.: another good defensive signing as nearly all of our centre backs are pants, and would also be looking at another striker too before signing back up keepers. We only need a another winger if you think Hughes is going to play 4-3-3 or some variation. So far pre-season and the end of last season suggests he is not. With 5 at the back and three in midfield we only have room to squeeze two attacking players in to the matchday 11 out of (as it stands) Gabbi, Austin, Redmond, Mo, Long, Sims and Gallagher. All the width will come from the wingbacks which suggests we should be looking for another RB to back up Cedric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Saint Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 From today's Star: Southampton manager Mark Hughes will have to offload players before he can press ahead for any incoming deals, including one for Serbia star Filip Kostic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tajjuk Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 We've been linked to Kostic before, 5 goals and 1 assist last year doesn;'t fill me with much confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Lungs Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 If you look at Yoshida last season and a half he has been holding the hands of 2 green centre backs and one fresh into the PL, plus playing with someone who until January couldn’t give a tinkers cuss about playing for Saints, prior to that he was in and out of the team. Unfortunately he is one of those players who needs to play every week, leave him out and rust sets in quickly, which is where he acquired a (permanent in some quarters) tag of an accident waiting to happen and not very good, that said Fonte was capable of even worse expensive howlers but because he played every week they were diluted, and was easily forgiven. If you actually watch Yoshida with no pre determined agenda he reads the game extremely well, and is far better than he is given credit for, especially on here. Hopefully with a more experienced defender like Vestergaard alongside him he won’t be needing to take to the pitch with a fire extinguisher in one hand to put out fires either side of him. This. The problem is with Maya is he suffered from being in and out of the team.. When he had a consistent run he’s actually decent. In other news, Fabian Schar from deportivo poss going to Newcastle for 3.5m. A steal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 If you look at Yoshida last season and a half he has been holding the hands of 2 green centre backs and one fresh into the PL, plus playing with someone who until January couldn’t give a tinkers cuss about playing for Saints, prior to that he was in and out of the team. Unfortunately he is one of those players who needs to play every week, leave him out and rust sets in quickly, which is where he acquired a (permanent in some quarters) tag of an accident waiting to happen and not very good, that said Fonte was capable of even worse expensive howlers but because he played every week they were diluted, and was easily forgiven. If you actually watch Yoshida with no pre determined agenda he reads the game extremely well, and is far better than he is given credit for, especially on here. Hopefully with a more experienced defender like Vestergaard alongside him he won’t be needing to take to the pitch with a fire extinguisher in one hand to put out fires either side of him. Good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miserableoldgit Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 Good post.I agree. I am starting to feel the same way about Maya as I did with Franny Benali. Not a "great" player but dedicated, never gives less than100%, and comparatively loyal. Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heisenberg Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 I agree. I am starting to feel the same way about Maya as I did with Franny Benali. Not a "great" player but dedicated, never gives less than 100%, and comparatively loyal. He had agreed a move to Sami Al Jaber in Saudi Arabia subject to our relegation. Even the Sami Al Jaber president (Al Hilal) confirmed the agreement. So he is apparently completely loyal but only while we are in the premier league and he is earning top $ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpin4rizeal Posted 24 July, 2018 Share Posted 24 July, 2018 We only need a another winger if you think Hughes is going to play 4-3-3 or some variation. So far pre-season and the end of last season suggests he is not. With 5 at the back and three in midfield we only have room to squeeze two attacking players in to the matchday 11 out of (as it stands) Gabbi, Austin, Redmond, Mo, Long, Sims and Gallagher. All the width will come from the wingbacks which suggests we should be looking for another RB to back up Cedric. Possible but we did start with Redmond and elyounoussi wide vs Derby doesn't neccasiatily mean we need to drop the three at the back to have the attacking wide players can play variations of 343 etc also a bit like Belgium formation with hazard and martens..Hughes seems quite flexible so far so would still be good to have more strength here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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