angelman Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 I find the situation around our owner to be a little strange. With one of the most important periods of our history (at least in the past several years) what with relegation looking a real possibility at one stage, you might have expected to see the owner come out and say good luck, or we must all pull together, or anything. But no. AFAIK, and I might be blind, absolutely nothing, and pretty much nothing since buying us. Now I am not expecting to have my hand held by the owner, nor platitudes to make me feel better, but it would be nice that he gave the impression that he gave a damn. Does he? His continued absence makes wonder whether he does. I heard in the concourse vs AFCB some theory that I am not sure has any truth in it at all. Bloke was saying the Gao is the agent in China for the Liebherr Group, and the purchase of the club was part of that deal. Now I am not sure that that is true, but who knows?? Presuming that we do survive, the next thing the club has to do with us is trying to get us to buy season tickets. While I am likely to renew, it would be good if the owner came out and gave us his vision for the club and its future path. I really think that that is the least he could do if he/the club are expecting people to part with £££s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red&white56 Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 Good comments angelman, I'm left wondering why he bought the club as he's shown no real interest (at least that I can find) in his expensive purchase.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy40 Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 Jisheng Gao has just bought Southampton FC (or whatever the businesses corporate name is) to further his own international business interests, I suppose it could have been any club at the right price at the right time for him. The guy I'd be watching is Neil Chen... https://www.soccerex.com/events/soccerex-china-2018/the-studio/chinese-investment-in-global-sport ... who may well be the Chinese 'Nicola Cortese'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 Where is the owner?? I thought the same when I went into Sainsbury's at the weekend. Not once have I seen the owner in there. I feel it might be time to switch my allegience to Tesco. (Disclaimer: apologies for the somewhat sarcastic post and a poor analogy to boot, but I do find it intriging why there is a clamour from most football fans for the owner to be more visible when, for most other industries, one probably doesn't even know the name of the owner let alone see them. For the record, I go to Sainsbury's more often than I go to Southampton games ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verlaine1979 Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 Jisheng Gao has just bought Southampton FC (or whatever the businesses corporate name is) to further his own international business interests, I suppose it could have been any club at the right price at the right time for him. The guy I'd be watching is Neil Chen... https://www.soccerex.com/events/soccerex-china-2018/the-studio/chinese-investment-in-global-sport ... who may well be the Chinese 'Nicola Cortese'. How does owning a provincial football club help your international business interests exactly? Sure, maybe if you buy a prestige club in a country like Italy where there's a slightly more forgiving attitude towards political corruption I can imagine it *might* do you a tiny bit of good, but even then I'm not sure the dots really connect. For some Chinese investors, clubs look a lot like status symbols or validation, but those have tended to be much larger acquisitions by groups with a great deal more wealth. By all accounts Gao struggled to raise the money to buy us, which doesn't really sound like the logical first step in a plan for international expansion. I think it far more likely that borrowing to buy income-rich sporting assets capable of paying off their own debt is a good way for rich Chinese to move money abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 9 May, 2018 Author Share Posted 9 May, 2018 I thought the same when I went into Sainsbury's at the weekend. Not once have I seen the owner in there. I feel it might be time to switch my allegience to Tesco. (Disclaimer: apologies for the somewhat sarcastic post and a poor analogy to boot, but I do find it intriging why there is a clamour from most football fans for the owner to be more visible when, for most other industries, one probably doesn't even know the name of the owner let alone see them. For the record, I go to Sainsbury's more often than I go to Southampton games ) Well Sainsbury's largest shareholder is Qatar and Tesco's is Black Rock (who are also the second biggest shareholder in Sainsbury's). But I did say that I don't want to have my hand held, nor have platitudes to make me feel better, just that there was some sign he actually cared. If I am expected to stump up £1400 for 2 STs, then it would be nice to know what direction we are going in and that the owner actually gives a damn about the club. As a customer, is that really too much to ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 Well Sainsbury's largest shareholder is Qatar and Tesco's is Black Rock (who are also the second biggest shareholder in Sainsbury's). But I did say that I don't want to have my hand held, nor have platitudes to make me feel better, just that there was some sign he actually cared. If I am expected to stump up £1400 for 2 STs, then it would be nice to know what direction we are going in and that the owner actually gives a damn about the club. As a customer, is that really too much to ask? No. But I do give much more than that to Sainsbury's over the course of a year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 I'm sure he'll be at SMS on Sunday, looking pleasantly sedated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a1ex2001 Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 I'd be quite happy if the owner never said anything publicly and left the running of the football club to knowledgeable professionals, it's the second bit he's got wrong at the minute! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 Has there even been a statement released since he took over, directly addressing the fanbase ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadhall Saint Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 I'm sure he'll be at SMS on Sunday, looking pleasantly sedated... [emoji3] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 Has there even been a statement released since he took over, directly addressing the fanbase ?? Yes, on day one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manji Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 I’m more concerned about the silence from Les Reed. He presided over this awful season. He needs to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 9 May, 2018 Author Share Posted 9 May, 2018 Les Reed - how much autonomy does he have or is he a lackey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manji Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 Les Reed - how much autonomy does he have or is he a lackey? From what I have heard from St Mary’s a lot of autonomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW5 SAINT Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 I'd be quite happy if the owner never said anything publicly and left the running of the football club to knowledgeable professionals, it's the second bit he's got wrong at the minute! You mean Krueger and Reed are knowledgeable professionals!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 There's a lot to sort out once the dust has settled on Sunday. Maybe we'll get the 'five pledges' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tajjuk Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 We'll probably get a new five year plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 Yeah, don't let last night's relative heroics gloss over the **** storm in the upper echelons of the club. We need some proper leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northam soul Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 There's a lot to sort out once the dust has settled on Sunday. Maybe we'll get the 'five pledges' ? I thought they were on Ralphs desk and going to be released in April. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadhall Saint Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 I thought they were on Ralphs desk and going to be released in April. That was 5 tins of pledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 I thought the same when I went into Sainsbury's at the weekend. Not once have I seen the owner in there. I feel it might be time to switch my allegience to Tesco. (Disclaimer: apologies for the somewhat sarcastic post and a poor analogy to boot, but I do find it intriging why there is a clamour from most football fans for the owner to be more visible when, for most other industries, one probably doesn't even know the name of the owner let alone see them. For the record, I go to Sainsbury's more often than I go to Southampton games ) Bit of a daft analogy, supporters are emotionally attached to a football club. If some Chinese business people want to use Tescos to launder their money then leave it to go bust no-one would give a toss except for the staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 Yes, on day one... Aha. All going according to plan, then.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 Bit of a daft analogy I know, hence declaring it was a bit rubbish at the time I posted it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy40 Posted 9 May, 2018 Share Posted 9 May, 2018 From what I have heard from St Mary’s a lot of autonomy. I'm assuming that whilst Kat started trying to sell the club in 2016 she just left Reed in control to run it with the other directors? In a weirdly positive way, if Gao and Chen pull their finger out once the season ends and try and conduct a proper root cause analysis of why we had such a **** season, all the breadcrumbs lead back to Reed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy40 Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 It's been interesting watching the meltdown since yesterday afternoon, the majority seem to be singling out Hughes, however he's just doing his job / what he's being told to do (and is earning good money no matter what happens, no motivation to succeed other his reputation). I'm not seeing anywhere near enough anger directed at Gao and his mouthpiece Krueger. Leicester's owner was pretty unique in being so hands on, they were incredibly lucky to have him, and in my mind this just highlights what a truly pathetic new 80% owner we have in Goa. For those who are somewhat ITK, like Guan 2.0, I'd love to know what Gao and Krueger are genuinely doing to be leaders and what example they're setting to all of those below them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericb Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 Gao is hands off on the football side of things (and has pretty much always intended to be) he is however expanding the business side of things and is doing things with the branding of the club (and working with other organisations and businesses) in China. He has also twice had an offer turned down for the concrete works by St Mary's. In terms of the football side of affairs it has always been a business as usual model, Krueger is still managing business revenue, Reed the football side of things. There really isn't any big conspiracy going on here, Gao purchased Saints for reasons he's currently exploiting (in his own country as well as ours), he never intended to be involved in the day to day of football affairs as he knows his knowledge is lacking. Krueger is definitely not Gao's mouthpiece, he's a mouthpiece for the club and represents some of Gao's interests but the club's board still run the club, especially from a football perspective. As for the whole idea of Gao being an agent of Liebherr group and the club being part of the purchase, if it's true it isn't something i've heard (and i know people working directly with the Gao's). My suspicion about that is it's probably untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verlaine1979 Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 Gao is hands off on the football side of things (and has pretty much always intended to be) he is however expanding the business side of things and is doing things with the branding of the club (and working with other organisations and businesses) in China. He has also twice had an offer turned down for the concrete works by St Mary's. In terms of the football side of affairs it has always been a business as usual model, Krueger is still managing business revenue, Reed the football side of things. There really isn't any big conspiracy going on here, Gao purchased Saints for reasons he's currently exploiting (in his own country as well as ours), he never intended to be involved in the day to day of football affairs as he knows his knowledge is lacking. Krueger is definitely not Gao's mouthpiece, he's a mouthpiece for the club and represents some of Gao's interests but the club's board still run the club, especially from a football perspective. As for the whole idea of Gao being an agent of Liebherr group and the club being part of the purchase, if it's true it isn't something i've heard (and i know people working directly with the Gao's). My suspicion about that is it's probably untrue. Exploiting these opportunities so successfully that the market cap of his main business has fallen to less than half of what it was around the time of the takeover. So, an owner who never really cared about the success of the football club, who has around half as much money (or less) as he did when he bought the club (and was never particularly wealthy to begin with). Now there's a recipe for long term stability if I ever saw one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Katalinic's 'tache Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 Gao is hands off on the football side of things (and has pretty much always intended to be) he is however expanding the business side of things and is doing things with the branding of the club (and working with other organisations and businesses) in China. He has also twice had an offer turned down for the concrete works by St Mary's. In terms of the football side of affairs it has always been a business as usual model, Krueger is still managing business revenue, Reed the football side of things. There really isn't any big conspiracy going on here, Gao purchased Saints for reasons he's currently exploiting (in his own country as well as ours), he never intended to be involved in the day to day of football affairs as he knows his knowledge is lacking. Krueger is definitely not Gao's mouthpiece, he's a mouthpiece for the club and represents some of Gao's interests but the club's board still run the club, especially from a football perspective. As for the whole idea of Gao being an agent of Liebherr group and the club being part of the purchase, if it's true it isn't something i've heard (and i know people working directly with the Gao's). My suspicion about that is it's probably untrue. Other than the financial side of things, do you know if does he actually care about the appalling playing side of the club and the misguided belief of those managing that side of the business they know what they're doing? I accept you may turn round and say this is a purely financial exercise for him (so the only interest for him is that the better we do, the more cash we should generate) but it would at least be something to get a sense that the current slew of embarrassing performances (particularly at St Mary's) are of vague concern to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 He's a **** owner, completely the worst sort, as far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy40 Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 Krueger is definitely not Gao's mouthpiece, he's a mouthpiece for the club and represents some of Gao's interests but the club's board still run the club, especially from a football perspective. Thanks for the comment eric, and regarding the above... https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/16230126.ralph-krueger-discusses-gao-jishengs-plans-at-southampton/ "My role is to represent ownership and be the voice of ownership and my responsibility is to then carry their wishes and their ambitions into the club." ... this comes across as contradictory. Has Krueger's role been altered since the Daily Echo article? I'm just trying to identify the most expedient path to express frustration in the running of the club, and without an active and participatory owner Krueger seems to be it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 Krueger is Gao's mouthpiece but Gao has nothing to say so we get Ralph-speak plus Les Reed's views on the footballing side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 The owner can be contacted here: landersports@lander.com.cn Be warned though, the resident fishwife's on here will have a coronary if you dare criticise him - only they are allowed to do that, and then only on a sad forum not in person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 The owner can be contacted here: landersports@lander.com.cn Be warned though, the resident fishwife's on here will have a coronary if you dare criticise him - only they are allowed to do that, and then only on a sad forum not in person Is that his address? Is it like "Ask Rupert"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 Gao is hands off on the football side of things (and has pretty much always intended to be) he is however expanding the business side of things and is doing things with the branding of the club (and working with other organisations and businesses) in China. He has also twice had an offer turned down for the concrete works by St Mary's. In terms of the football side of affairs it has always been a business as usual model, Krueger is still managing business revenue, Reed the football side of things. There really isn't any big conspiracy going on here, Gao purchased Saints for reasons he's currently exploiting (in his own country as well as ours), he never intended to be involved in the day to day of football affairs as he knows his knowledge is lacking. Krueger is definitely not Gao's mouthpiece, he's a mouthpiece for the club and represents some of Gao's interests but the club's board still run the club, especially from a football perspective. As for the whole idea of Gao being an agent of Liebherr group and the club being part of the purchase, if it's true it isn't something i've heard (and i know people working directly with the Gao's). My suspicion about that is it's probably untrue. So an owner who couldn't really careless about SFC apart from a few business opportunities it opens up in China...great Doesn't really tie in with the club/ Kat's line at the time of the take over about getting someone to help invest to push saints on and build on our success... It sounds the club is totally bereft of leadership right at the top at a time when we could really do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsland Red Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 No wonder we go to St Marys with such low expectations. We have an owner with little interest of any success ( or failure ) in the sporting arena. He bought the club and probably by now (TV and VVD money etc) has recovered a large proportion of his outlay, but with little intent of investing any further. We have a board lacking direction from above who do as little as possible to maintain the status quo and cannot act decisively as it may rock the financial boat. At what point does this man get involved in the purpose of a football club, rather than show more interest in buying up a local cement works ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simo Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 As long as his money is getting clean why would he give a **** what else happens !? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabbage_Face Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 Who is our owner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericb Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 Other than the financial side of things' date=' do you know if does he actually care about the appalling playing side of the club and the misguided belief of those managing that side of the business they know what they're doing? I accept you may turn round and say this is a purely financial exercise for him (so the only interest for him is that the better we do, the more cash we should generate) but it would at least be something to get a sense that the current slew of embarrassing performances (particularly at St Mary's) are of vague concern to him.[/quote'] No idea to be honest, i only know what i know about the business side, i've never spoken to him in person. Thanks for the comment eric, and regarding the above... https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/16230126.ralph-krueger-discusses-gao-jishengs-plans-at-southampton/ "My role is to represent ownership and be the voice of ownership and my responsibility is to then carry their wishes and their ambitions into the club." ... this comes across as contradictory. Has Krueger's role been altered since the Daily Echo article? I'm just trying to identify the most expedient path to express frustration in the running of the club, and without an active and participatory owner Krueger seems to be it? It's not really contradictory, part of Krueger's job is clearly to rely what Gao wants to be told to the press on his behalf, that doesn't mean he's just the mouthpiece of Gao. Kruegers main role is commercial, his main PR role is to represent the board. On the few occasions he's representing Gao it's because he's been told to, or briefed to. Exploiting these opportunities so successfully that the market cap of his main business has fallen to less than half of what it was around the time of the takeover. So, an owner who never really cared about the success of the football club, who has around half as much money (or less) as he did when he bought the club (and was never particularly wealthy to begin with). Now there's a recipe for long term stability if I ever saw one... So an owner who couldn't really careless about SFC apart from a few business opportunities it opens up in China...great Doesn't really tie in with the club/ Kat's line at the time of the take over about getting someone to help invest to push saints on and build on our success... It sounds the club is totally bereft of leadership right at the top at a time when we could really do with it. No one said he doesn't care about the football side, i said he wasn't hands on with the football side (i think the words used when he bought us was that it would be "business as usual on the football side"). He's aware in his lack of knowledge from what i understand so has given the reigns to people he thinks does understand it. As for concentrating on the business opportunities how do you expect us to grow if you don't do that? I'm not pretending to know all the answers by the way, nor to claim he's a good choice for owner (read through my old posts and you'll see i pre-warned everyone be careful what you wish for). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 Is it possible for someone to make him realise what an awful error it is to leave Ralph and Reed unchecked? They must think they have the easiest job in the world with zero accountability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordic Saint Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 Gao was sold a vision by Kat of a profitable business, where players were brought in cheaply and sold for huge profits every year. But, she knew the cupboard was almost bare. She also knew that the people who'd found those players had left. The only reason the van Dijk sale was delayed was because Gao wasn't going to part with his borrowed cash if any more players were sold before the money went into Kat's account. Gao's main business. Lander Sports Development, is not doing well and is only worth a fraction of what it once was. He is going to really struggle to repay that loan. If you look at the Forbe's rich list of the wealthiest people in China, you won't find him anywhere near it. The only thing poor, old Gao is really guilty of is being gullible and allowing Kat to con him out of all that money. There are probably people who post on this board who have more spare cash than he does at the moment. These are the 400 richest people in China. It's a pity we couldn't have got one of them as an owner: https://www.forbes.com/sites/russellflannery/2017/11/15/chinas-richest-2017-the-full-list-of-400-billionaires/#1bab339a296b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 Gao was sold a vision by Kat of a profitable business, where players were brought in cheaply and sold for huge profits every year. But, she knew the cupboard was almost bare. She also knew that the people who'd found those players had left. The only reason the van Dijk sale was delayed was because Gao wasn't going to part with his borrowed cash if any more players were sold before the money went into Kat's account. Gao's main business. Lander Sports Development, is not doing well and is only worth a fraction of what it once was. He is going to really struggle to repay that loan. If you look at the Forbe's rich list of the wealthiest people in China, you won't find him anywhere near it. The only thing poor, old Gao is really guilty of is being gullible and allowing Kat to con him out of all that money. There are probably people who post on this board who have more spare cash than he does at the moment. These are the 400 richest people in China. It's a pity we couldn't have got one of them as an owner: https://www.forbes.com/sites/russellflannery/2017/11/15/chinas-richest-2017-the-full-list-of-400-billionaires/#1bab339a296b She may be a trust fund baby (think Paris Hilton with a weight problem); but she certainly did a job on Goa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 Is it possible for someone to make him realise what an awful error it is to leave Ralph and Reed unchecked? They must think they have the easiest job in the world with zero accountability. Good question. Gao doesn't know how to drive, and is so clueless he doesn't realise that he's handed the keys to his expensive car to a couple of chancers who can barely drive themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topcat Posted 5 November, 2018 Share Posted 5 November, 2018 NordicSaint - that info reinforces the need that Gao has that we do not get relegated. He is going to have to act very soon and after the relegation scare last season may now feel able to tackle the problem of Reed. I can but hope. Realistically, Hughes will probably be blamed and will get fired very soon unless we start winning games. There is always the chance that Kreuger fires Reed to save himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltonaggro Posted 6 November, 2018 Share Posted 6 November, 2018 NordicSaint - that info reinforces the need that Gao has that we do not get relegated. He is going to have to act very soon and after the relegation scare last season may now feel able to tackle the problem of Reed. I can but hope. Realistically, Hughes will probably be blamed and will get fired very soon unless we start winning games. There is always the chance that Kreuger fires Reed to save himself. Agree, that's the most likely upcoming scenario. It's a start I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 6 November, 2018 Author Share Posted 6 November, 2018 We do actually have 2 owners..... the minority one with 20% is even quieter than the majority one, which I guess is to be expected. No idea why she kept 20%, but guess it gives her another £52m (if based on the sale price of £210m for 80%), or is there another reason? If I was Gao, I would have said 100% for £210m or no deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 6 November, 2018 Share Posted 6 November, 2018 Actually the club were too late in submitting their bid and it went to someone else. We were in pole position to acquire the land. Mess. What were the clubs plans for the space? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordic Saint Posted 6 November, 2018 Share Posted 6 November, 2018 What were the clubs plans for the space? Statues of Les and Ralph? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericb Posted 6 November, 2018 Share Posted 6 November, 2018 Actually the club were too late in submitting their bid and it went to someone else. We were in pole position to acquire the land. Mess. Ah i knew we missed out, didn't get the details of why, if that's the case that's an absolute embarrassment, though not hugely surprising given how the club is currently run. They have more "managers" than people doing the work in most departments, i think it's case of if you sneeze right you get made dept head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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