"Gender Pay Gap"

[Lighthouse]

This fictitious pay gap and the constant media stories are really starting to get on my tits. The latest BBC report has McEnroe apparently being paid more than Navratilova, as if gender is anything to do with that.

 

Has anyone got any experience of any job where men and women are paid differing amounts for exactly the same role?

[Batman]

Nope.

[buctootim]

In some industries there is a reverse gender gap - women are paid more than men with same experience. The large majority of women have children and most of those mothers choose to have career breaks to care for those children whilst the fathers are expected to provide. It sounds stone age but its still the reality for most. The result is that most women have a disjointed career and accumulate less professional experience. The higher up the tree you go the more those missing years matter. When I worked in the NHS most women senior managers didn't have kids.

 

There are only a small number of solutions, neither of them fair.

1. Force both parents to take equal amounts of time off work for childcare - this will be especially unpopular with many mothers who want to stay at home.

2. Pay women who have kids the same even if they don't have the same level of experience.

Edited 19 March, 2018 by buctootim

[trousers]

There is no 'agenda pay gap' (in my humble opinion). You pay people what they are worth (in media terms, that means who is likely to draw in the largest audience by virtue of their presence). McEnroe is bigger box office than Narativlova, ergo he gets paid more. Not rocket science.

[Jonnyboy]

There is no 'agenda pay gap' (in my humble opinion). You pay people what they are worth (in media terms, that means who is likely to draw in the largest audience by virtue of their presence). McEnroe is bigger box office than Narativlova, ergo he gets paid more. Not rocket science.

 

10x more?

Do 10x more people really tune in because he's on the commentary?

[Whitey Grandad]

I can’t stand either of them.

 

There’s a simple answer. If you’re not happy with the money on offer then go elsewhere.

 

Greedy bastards, all of them.

[Batman]

I think the BBC issue here is not so much Navratilova getting 10x less but any individual pundit getting £150k+ for 2 weeks work giving opinion on a couple of games of tennis per day.

[trousers]

10x more?

Do 10x more people really tune in because he's on the commentary?

I've no idea. Was Bruce Forsythe worth 10x Bobby Davro?

[Lighthouse]

10x more?

Do 10x more people really tune in because he's on the commentary?

 

Probably not. The point here is that his gender doesn’t play any part in it but that is how the issue is being portrayed.

 

What’s really going on is that McEnroe’s agent/manager has managed to convince the BBC he’s good television and worth tuning in for, more convincingly than Navratilova’s agent.

 

To put an even stupider outlook on things; it would be like saying Everton pay Rooney more than Oumar Niasse, therefor the Everton boardroom must be full of racists.

[whelk]

I liked Jordan Peterson on C4 News with Cathy Newman. I thought he spoke sense but know women who think he is a complete arsehole.

 

[ashnats]

McEnroe did 3x more hours on Wimbledon than Martin and gave up exclusivity to the bbc, which Martin didnt( because she’s not important enough to have it offered).

He’s considered the face of bbc commentary team and is hugely popular with viewers, which Martin isn’t. She’s not as good at the job or as much of a draw.

 

15k is reasonable for her. They could get someone else as good for the same.

150k is reasonable for Mac. He’s one of a kind and could not be replaced, for any money. (Tim henman?!?!)

 

This is why there is a difference.

[SW5 SAINT]

10x more?

Do 10x more people really tune in because he's on the commentary?

 

No idea why, just as I've no idea why Alexis Sanchez is worth twice as much in salary terms as Romelo Lukako......?

[Jonnyboy]

No idea why, just as I've no idea why Alexis Sanchez is worth twice as much in salary terms as Romelo Lukako......?

 

Because the paymasters think he will earn them even more money.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I thought anyone could define themselves as a bloke or a chick without surgery nowadays. If Martina believes that Mac is paid more because he's a bloke, why doesn't she just define as a male ( she's halfway there anyway), and she'll automatically get a pay rise.

 

 

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[Batman]

[ashnats]

 

Drops mic...

[sotonist]

BBC earns some respect for a change. still in negative equity.

[sotonist]

I've no idea. Was Bruce Forsythe worth 10x Bobby Davro?

 

what if brucey was twice as good as davro but there is only one other entertainer competing on brucey's level and 19 competing with bobby?

[Mr X]

I thought anyone could define themselves as a bloke or a chick without surgery nowadays. If Martina believes that Mac is paid more because he's a bloke, why doesn't she just define as a male ( she's halfway there anyway), and she'll automatically get a pay rise.

 

 

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"She's half way there anyway" why cos she's a lesbian?

 

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[Manuel]

Janet Street Porter made an interesting point about supermarket employees. Those on the tills tend to earn less than those in the storeroom - both unskilled jobs.

 

Women tended to work on the till whereas men in the stores. Perhaps women were better suited to the tills because they (arguably) have better customer service skills (able to chat and smile and whatnot) whereas men can move stuff about quicker.

 

Is this a case of gender pay gap?

 

Even if it is I'd still rather work in the stores than on the till, whatever the pay.

[Lighthouse]

Janet Street Porter made an interesting point about supermarket employees. Those on the tills tend to earn less than those in the storeroom - both unskilled jobs.

 

Women tended to work on the till whereas men in the stores. Perhaps women were better suited to the tills because they (arguably) have better customer service skills (able to chat and smile and whatnot) whereas men can move stuff about quicker.

 

Is this a case of gender pay gap?

 

Even if it is I'd still rather work in the stores than on the till, whatever the pay.

 

Nope. If Janet, or any other women, have a problem with that then why not apply for a job in the warehouse?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Nope. If Janet, or any other women, have a problem with that then why not apply for a job in the warehouse?

 

It’s very simple for me. Do these retailers pay men who work on the tills (and they do, I was served by a bloke in Tesco today) more then they pay women on the till. Do they pay women working in the warehouse less then men that work in the warehouse. I’m pretty sure the answer in both cases is no.

 

 

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[hypochondriac]

It’s very simple for me. Do these retailers pay men who work on the tills (and they do, I was served by a bloke in Tesco today) more then they pay women on the till. Do they pay women working in the warehouse less then men that work in the warehouse. I’m pretty sure the answer in both cases is no.

 

 

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Exactly. As long as there is equality of opportunity then that's all that matters. Equality of outcome is not only impossible to achieve without forcing people to do jobs they don't want to do, it's also incredibly retarded.

[sotonist]

the point is that they want to be paid the same as a job they don't want to do for a job they do want to do.

 

the only reason warehouse workers earn more is because there are predominantly men working there.

 

for the same reason cheap razor blades have been deliberately colour coded so that women can't buy them.

[trousers]

the only reason warehouse workers earn more is because there are predominantly men working there

 

Source?

[shurlock]

It’s very simple for me. Do these retailers pay men who work on the tills (and they do, I was served by a bloke in Tesco today) more then they pay women on the till. Do they pay women working in the warehouse less then men that work in the warehouse. I’m pretty sure the answer in both cases is no.

 

 

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And perhaps it’s harder for women to get jobs in the warehouse (independent of ability and suitability).

[hypochondriac]

And perhaps it’s harder for women to get jobs in the warehouse (independent of ability and suitability).

Well that's a separate issue isn't it. If women are actively being prevented from accessing warehouse jobs then I agree there is a problem there and it's illegal.

[sotonist]

Source?

 

p.s. i do not advise google image searching for "daddies" even with safe search on.

[aintforever]

Well that's a separate issue isn't it. If women are actively being prevented from accessing warehouse jobs then I agree there is a problem there and it's illegal.

 

Or maybe there is a problem in that roles traditionally more suited to women are under valued?

 

You would think that maybe the customer facing staff have more valuable skill set than those moving stuff about in a warehouse? Without knowing specifics it’s hard to say.

[hypochondriac]

Or maybe there is a problem in that roles traditionally more suited to women are under valued?

 

You would think that maybe the customer facing staff have more valuable skill set than those moving stuff about in a warehouse? Without knowing specifics it’s hard to say.

 

Well if the issue is that people who work on the tills should be paid for their work then maybe there is a case for that but as you say neither of us know the specifics. It's certainly not anything to do with gender. As long as the opportunity is there for women to work in the warehouse for the same amount as other warehouse workers then I don't see any problem, just as there is no problem if a man chooses to accept the lower paid position working on the tills- as many do.

 

Forcing supermarkets to pay till workers more money simply because more women have freely decided to work on tills is not the right thing to do.

[aintforever]

Well if the issue is that people who work on the tills should be paid for their work then maybe there is a case for that but as you say neither of us know the specifics. It's certainly not anything to do with gender. As long as the opportunity is there for women to work in the warehouse for the same amount as other warehouse workers then I don't see any problem, just as there is no problem if a man chooses to accept the lower paid position working on the tills- as many do.

 

Forcing supermarkets to pay till workers more money simply because more women have freely decided to work on tills is not the right thing to do.

 

I dunno, I think to a degree some roles suited for women are undervalued because going back a few generations men were traditionally the bread winners while the women stayed at home. Those days are long gone and maybe the workplace needs to catch up?

 

The caring profression IMO is grossly underpaid and they do an absolutely vital job. I could never do some of the jobs fiends of mine do, not even for double their money.

[hypochondriac]

I dunno, I think to a degree some roles suited for women are undervalued because going back a few generations men were traditionally the bread winners while the women stayed at home. Those days are long gone and maybe the workplace needs to catch up?

 

The caring profression IMO is grossly underpaid and they do an absolutely vital job. I could never do some of the jobs fiends of mine do, not even for double their money.

Well I'm not sure how a wage rise in the caring professions would work given its either funded by the government who certainly wouldn't be paying more or by parents and guardians of either elderly people or children. My extensive experience in that area tells me there would be a giant outcry from these two groups if they were asked to pay more even if it were made clear it was for a wage rise. Typically, the bosses in these care companies would love to pay more to all their stuff but they simply wouldn't be financially viable.

[Saint86]

This fictitious pay gap and the constant media stories are really starting to get on my tits. The latest BBC report has McEnroe apparently being paid more than Navratilova, as if gender is anything to do with that.

 

Has anyone got any experience of any job where men and women are paid differing amounts for exactly the same role?

 

I'm a civil engineer. The women in my company get a far better deal on a job/experience basis.

[hypochondriac]

I'm a civil engineer. The women in my company get a far better deal on a job/experience basis.

The vast majority of women are decent, hardworking people who don't want to get involved with any of this rubbish. They are fully aware of how odious third wave feminism is and they want nothing to do with it. I support those women who just want to get on and live their lives without manufacturing outrage or finding sexual discrimination where there is none.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I had a few beverages with the unit manager of a very large B&Q last night and this came up in discussion about wages. According to him they have 3 levels of staff. Management, experts & ordinary staff. Management negotiate their own salary with him but within certain bandings , experts are ex plumbers etc and they’re paid according to qualifications & again it’s open to negotiation. Ordinary staff are paid exactly the same hourly rate, regardless of whether you’re warehouse or check outs. He reckons the issue isn’t with in store warehouse staff, but with their distribution warehouses. Staff there are predominantly male and paid more than the instore staff. This is because historically these staff are unionised, many tupied over when they expanded and took over the distribution centres from other retailers and there’d be mayhem in numerous stores if these warehouses didn’t have an engaged workforce. They’re also more skilled, driving fork lifts and the like. Interestingly he reckons his female managers are better leaders, better “man managers”, but hopeless at the brinksmanship required when negotiating salaries. My Mrs asked why he didn’t reward the better managers, he just laughed and basically said, why should he when he didn’t need to & it’s up to them to push for more money. I know it’s just a snap shot, but it does show that there’s various issue that cause a pay gap, but not specifically because of your gender.

 

 

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[doddisalegend]

Southampton Football Club publish their gender pay report

 

http://www.bing.com/cr?IG=D9C727B96CA84C558733A3BBC75E7E5F&CID=3CEF2A474F9763AF37E221FD4E56629B&rd=1&h=kKxQIhq4AcM6nD0p8ytyZoh9kDB92qkmvnX_YBvjOH4&v=1&r=http%3a%2f%2fwww.dailyecho.co.uk%2fsport%2f16122061.Saints_committed_to_gender_equality%2f&p=DevEx,5025.1

[LGTL]

Southampton Football Club publish their gender pay report

 

http://www.bing.com/cr?IG=D9C727B96CA84C558733A3BBC75E7E5F&CID=3CEF2A474F9763AF37E221FD4E56629B&rd=1&h=kKxQIhq4AcM6nD0p8ytyZoh9kDB92qkmvnX_YBvjOH4&v=1&r=http%3a%2f%2fwww.dailyecho.co.uk%2fsport%2f16122061.Saints_committed_to_gender_equality%2f&p=DevEx,5025.1

 

Bit unfair, we don't have any girls on the team.

 

Well, maybe Dusan.

[hypochondriac]

Southampton Football Club publish their gender pay report

 

http://www.bing.com/cr?IG=D9C727B96CA84C558733A3BBC75E7E5F&CID=3CEF2A474F9763AF37E221FD4E56629B&rd=1&h=kKxQIhq4AcM6nD0p8ytyZoh9kDB92qkmvnX_YBvjOH4&v=1&r=http%3a%2f%2fwww.dailyecho.co.uk%2fsport%2f16122061.Saints_committed_to_gender_equality%2f&p=DevEx,5025.1

How utterly demented. Why are salary differences being published for different people doing completely different jobs? The whole thing is mental.

[suewhistle]

The vast majority of women are decent, hardworking people who don't want to get involved with any of this rubbish.

 

 

LOL. You can always tell where hypochondriac will be on any issue which involves any hint of social progress or change from when he was a lad, or what was acceptable the century before last.

 

Also, look up "mansplaining".

 

I don't get involved in these debates as they tend to be a waste of time, but hypo made me cackle so much with that statement that I just had to comment.

[hypochondriac]

LOL. You can always tell where hypochondriac will be on any issue which involves any hint of social progress or change from when he was a lad, or what was acceptable the century before last.

 

Also, look up "mansplaining".

 

I don't get involved in these debates as they tend to be a waste of time, but hypo made me cackle so much with that statement that I just had to comment.

 

The company I work with is 90% female, pretty sure I have an adequate grasp of this issue thanks. Thank goodness that the vast majority are how I have characterised them and not like yourself. Its why the vast majority of women in this country do not describe themselves as feminist because they realise it is about man hating and ultimately being unhappy and alone.

 

As for mansplaining, a bigger load of b*llocks has never been invented. It's also very sexist as shown below.

 

Edited 29 March, 2018 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

An absolutely stonking video from the always excellent character Jonathan Pie. He deserves more airtime.

 

[Sheaf Saint]

An absolutely stonking video from the always excellent character Jonathan Pie. He deserves more airtime.

 

 

I saw this posted elsewhere the other day. Pie is brilliant. I went to see his live stage show last month and it was true genius. Coincidentally, he touched on what you mentioned in your previous post in response to suewhistle, by having a pop at the idea of mansplaining. He told the audience "If you ever find me talking to you in a condescending and insulting manner, rest assured it will be nothing to do with your gender and will most likely be because you're a f*cking cretin!"

[whelk]

Paymetoo hashtag. FFS I despair

 

I want the same conditions as a French railway worker. Job for life, guaranteed pay rises and fck me retirement at 52.

[Jonnyboy]

Well I'm not sure how a wage rise in the caring professions would work given its either funded by the government who certainly wouldn't be paying more or by parents and guardians of either elderly people or children. My extensive experience in that area tells me there would be a giant outcry from these two groups if they were asked to pay more even if it were made clear it was for a wage rise. Typically, the bosses in these care companies would love to pay more to all their stuff but they simply wouldn't be financially viable.

 

#nationalisation

[hypochondriac]

#nationalisation

The government would absolutely love to get more of their claws into early years. Given they have spent most of the last few years comparing us to the poor system in France rather than the vastly superior Swedish system, I would have zero faith that they would either pay the money required to attract the top early years teachers that the job needs or provide the type of choice that parents demand.

[sadoldgit]

The company I work with is 90% female, pretty sure I have an adequate grasp of this issue thanks. Thank goodness that the vast majority are how I have characterised them and not like yourself. Its why the vast majority of women in this country do not describe themselves as feminist because they realise it is about man hating and ultimately being unhappy and alone.

 

As for mansplaining, a bigger load of b*llocks has never been invented. It's also very sexist as shown below.

 

 

Priceless, even by your standards. So you are telling a lady who clearly has more experience of the wage gap than you have as a man that she is wrong just because you work with a few women who might disagree and you base your assumptions on all of the women this country's attitude on your workmates? What a patronising post. Nearly as funny as you saying you have a better grasp of the Muslim situation because your wife isn't one!!

Since when has feminism been about "man hating and ultimately being unhappy and alone?" What a crass and stupid statement! So women cannot lead happy and fulfilled lives without a man? Did you wife and your female workmates tell you that?

 

Oh, and by the way. The women in your workplace do not earn equal pay. Whilst they are busy working you are spending your days on here looking for people to argue with. Therefore you are being paid the same as them for doing less. Not equal at all.

 

And there clearly are pay gaps as you will have seen if you have been watching any of the reports on tv on the situation recently.

[hypochondriac]

Soggy go and annoy someone else. You're clueless.

[sotonist]

An absolutely stonking video from the always excellent character Jonathan Pie. He deserves more airtime.

 

 

excellent, thanks.

[hypochondriac]

excellent, thanks.

No problem. I'm going to try and see him live this year. My feeling is that he speaks so much sense that he tends to unite people of all political persuasions.

 

This one is great too:

 

[sotonist]

No problem. I'm going to try and see him live this year. My feeling is that he speaks so much sense that he tends to unite people of all political persuasions.

 

This one is great too:

 

 

on a tangent so i dont want to derail, but I see he's got into a disagreement with Graham Linehan over this. How Father Ted and The IT crowd came from that clown, I don't think I will ever understand.

 

Maybe have independently concieved of the same thing, but he's possibly borrowed the bit about training a pug to salute Hitler being a crime in nazi germany from David Baddiel on twitter.