2 forwards have to start

[SKD]

That's right. I think the problem is we haven't got a true 10 in the squad. Won't be popular, but I think JWP is the best option.

 

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May as well keep Tadic in there if that’s the case.

 

Boufal, Redmond and Gabbi would all offer much more going forwards. They’d be able to play off GC/CA.

[Saint Billy]

Not at all. If we’d been winning our home games I could understand this argument. However we haven’t and we’ve left ourselves in a position where we need to win these ‘6 pointers’. I’m sorry, but given our last couple of fixtures, 2 points from Newcastle and West Ham will not be enough.

 

This.

 

God forbid our manager actually sets us up to try and put the ball in the opponents net.

[Lord Duckhunter]

No it’s not.... he’s said 2 forwards, not specifically 442. We do play a 10, but that’s usually a CM or Tadic, who has no pace and offers very little in behind and is best on the left wing.

 

Fair enough. If people are calling for 2 forwards on the pitch in our normal formation, then it’s a debate about personal rather than set up. Personally I don’t think Gabbi can do the job required and get back defensively a bit like Okazaki does for Leicester. Long probably could, but given his record whether than constitutes 2 forwards starting is debatable. For a few minutes Sims looked like he went in there yesterday. I wouldn’t be adverse to him or Redmond dropping in there with JWP coming in wide instead of Tadic. Sims, Redmond and long are probably the only players we have who could run in behind. Boufal should be able to, but I’ve seen nothing to suggest he’s willing to.

 

I just don’t want us to chuck the baby out with the bath water. Our away performances lately are ok.

 

 

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[Shroppie]

May as well keep Tadic in there if that’s the case.

 

Boufal, Redmond and Gabbi would all offer much more going forwards. They’d be able to play off GC/CA.

Might agree about Gabbiadini but don't think Boufal has got the vision, Redmond and Tadic need to be on the wings. A couple of games back when Tadic was 10, an article showed a map of his movement, and there was a gaping hole where you'd expect to see a 10.

 

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[shurlock]

No it’s not.... he’s said 2 forwards, not specifically 442. We do play a 10, but that’s usually a CM or Tadic, who has no pace and offers very little in behind and is best on the left wing.

 

Not what happened yesterday. Sims and Tadic switched quite frequently and Sims was taking up the no.10 position.

[SKD]

All comes down to us not winning our home games, now we’re in this mess.

[PapaWaiToGO]

I think he's been told that he has to play 4-2-3-1, don't all academy teams play it? What I don't understand is why he would destroy his reputation by allowing tactics to be dictated to him, surely if you're going down you'd rather do it via your own ideas and methods than Les or Ralphs - and still get all the blame.

[sandwichsaint]

Our home form is so bad it makes our away form look good.

 

Think you need to have another look at that table. We have 1 or 2 (away) games in hand and are picking up just shy of a point an (away) game and with a decent GD,

 

our away form has us somewhere around 8th/9th/10th ... just about exactly where most people perceive our squad, managed and coached properly should be in the real league table.

 

Our current predicament is 99% down to our woeful home form.

[derry]

All the popular formations used today have been around for at least 50 years, 4-2-3-1 was derived by the Brazilians to accommodate Pele, Revelinho etc. 4-4-2 is derived from 4-2-4 just bringing the wingers back it is no more old fashioned than 4-3-3 etc all have been used for years.

 

It is a crass mistake to arrive at a system and put players in that don't suit. I personally think the way to arrive at a formation is to look at the players available and give them a framework that brings the best out of them and allows the best players to play.

 

IMO at the moment to suit our squad two formations stand out for different reasons, 4-4-2 and 4-3-3. 4-4-2 is the most natural with Sims + 1 and two strikers with two from Romeu, Lamina and Hojbjerg in midfield. 4-3-3 on the other hand suits the three midfielders plus three from Carillo, Gabbiadini, Austin, Long and Sims up front depending on how you see them playing together. For me 4-4-2 suits two strikers and is a natural for the players we have.

[derry]

If the club want to play a set in stone system then their recruitment should reflect that system's requirements. Our recruitment is random and left us with some decent defensive midfielders, very poor three from six midfielders come forwards and playing one striker none of who suit playing on their own being isolated by the lack of attacking runs by the players behind, coupled with an obsession with possession, yesterday 66%. As an example Man City had 71% possession, 68% of it in the opponents half. We have most of our possession in our half with the back four having a lot of it.

 

Slow build up and forwards that prefer to check out and pass back and inside through lack of pace is killing us. Sims is showing us how, but the ball must be released earlier to take advantage. Sims on one side Long on the other(remember Watford away) with two from Carillo, Austin and Gabbiadini. If Redmond wants to play then he has to copy Sims not Tadic and JWP.

[Whitey Grandad]

From The Times this morning:

 

"Josh Sims, making his first league start since November 2016, was right when he said that this squad were too talented to go down, but that only makes their malaise under Mauricio Pellegrino all the more perplexing.

 

They were beyond awful in the first half on Saturday. Too many players are underperforming but the biggest issue is the game plan, or lack of it.

 

Why are a team containing sprightly, attack-minded players such as Nathan Redmond and Dusan Tadic making a concerted effort to build up slowly? Pellegrino has made them ponderous. Too often the holding midfielders, Mario Lemina and Oriol Romeu, are playing the ball backwards and sideways rather than advancing.

 

There was a drastic improvement in the second half, as if the players’ leash had been taken off. Pellegrino said that his players “must use the second half as a reference for the future” but it is hard to imagine that happening when they have not put together a consistently good 90 minutes since defeating Everton 4-1 in November."

[SKD]

From The Times this morning:

 

"Josh Sims, making his first league start since November 2016, was right when he said that this squad were too talented to go down, but that only makes their malaise under Mauricio Pellegrino all the more perplexing.

 

They were beyond awful in the first half on Saturday. Too many players are underperforming but the biggest issue is the game plan, or lack of it.

Why are a team containing sprightly, attack-minded players such as Nathan Redmond and Dusan Tadic making a concerted effort to build up slowly? Pellegrino has made them ponderous. Too often the holding midfielders, Mario Lemina and Oriol Romeu, are playing the ball backwards and sideways rather than advancing.

 

There was a drastic improvement in the second half, as if the players’ leash had been taken off. Pellegrino said that his players “must use the second half as a reference for the future” but it is hard to imagine that happening when they have not put together a consistently good 90 minutes since defeating Everton 4-1 in November."

 

Hang on, don't the forum experts tell us that are squad is not good enough and that we should be bottom half/quarter of the table?

 

One even compared our squad to Newcastle's

[derry]

Quite how they are going to manage the second half momentum without playing the same players who he won't start is beyond me. It's playing one striker and two or three pedestrians behind him is the problem. Solution, two strikers plus pace and pass the ****ing ball forwards.

[Shroppie]

Shock horror. Palace start with two strikers against ManU.

 

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[Lord Duckhunter]

Shock horror. Palace start with two strikers against ManU.

 

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And lose !!!!!!

 

 

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[Give it to Ron]

And lose !!!!!!

 

N/t

 

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[Lord Duckhunter]

No Roy’s fault. Should have tightened up at 2-0 & took off one of the forwards.

 

 

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[Give it to Ron]

No Roy’s fault. Should have tightened up at 2-0 & took off one of the forwards.

 

 

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Did we look better with Gabbi and Carillo after 67 mins on Saturday or the first 45 mins?

Away i think its ok and would try Redmond central behind Carillo

 

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[Mosin]

May as well keep Tadic in there if that’s the case.

 

Boufal, Redmond and Gabbi would all offer much more going forwards. They’d be able to play off GC/CA.

 

 

Boufal dont offer much going forwards tbh, remind me how many goals and assists and key passes Boufal has compared to JWP?

 

Any way not going into that, for me atm JWP should be first name on the sheet, he is the only one who is creating chances that we seem able to finish, but at same time, having him on the right is no good either, Sims is far far better, but again, JWP needs to play, so i think a change of formation is needed.

 

I think 4231 is a bit to defensive and Lamina is wasted sitting deep too, so i think a 41221 would be better suited with JWP Lamina and Romeu all sharing the 3 CM slots with Romeu sitting deep in the anchor role which will suit him JWP being the deep laying playmaker / Mezzala role with Lemina the box to box, that is a pretty solid mid 3 with Redmond, Tadic, Boufal and Sims all sharing the inside forward slots with Carillo the target man / DLF.

 

We set up like that, we have the beast ( Lamina ) getting into the box / doing his driving runs forward, JWP and his range of passing / free kicks / corners and the defensive cover of Romeu in front of the back 4.

 

But im not manager, so it'll never happen like that, we will stick to what we are doing and might just escape relegation

[doddisalegend]

interesting bit from this article http://www.football365.com/news/premier-league-winners-and-losers-93

 

‘One thing that hasn’t changed is Southampton’s abysmal shooting. They rank seventh in the division for chances created, bettered only by the current top six. Southampton’s shot accuracy of 38.7% puts them 18th, while they only fare marginally better for shot conversion (8.5% – 16th).’

 

So despite the fact we play negative football and don't try to win games the only teams to create more chances than us are the top 6? We can't, it seems, actually score the chances we create though with some of the worst finishing in the league which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has watched us play this season there doesn't seem to one instinctive natural finisher in our whole front line bar Austin who can't seem to manage a season.

[nta786]

interesting bit from this article http://www.football365.com/news/premier-league-winners-and-losers-93

 

‘One thing that hasn’t changed is Southampton’s abysmal shooting. They rank seventh in the division for chances created, bettered only by the current top six. Southampton’s shot accuracy of 38.7% puts them 18th, while they only fare marginally better for shot conversion (8.5% – 16th).’

 

So despite the fact we play negative football and don't try to win games the only teams to create more chances than us are the top 6? We can't, it seems, actually score the chances we create though with some of the worst finishing in the league which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has watched us play this season there doesn't seem to one instinctive natural finisher in our whole front line bar Austin who can't seem to manage a season.

 

the stats need to look further into the quality of chances, but also some outliers such as that of the Swansea game where we had like 30 shots (yet drew 0-0).

 

ultimately, we are dogsh1t, deserve to go down.

[OttawaSaint]

Whether or not we need or start with 2 up front, we need to win, we need 3pts so we need to score. We have to come out and attack. Keeping it tight is not useful to us anymore. It's time (or was time a few weeks ago) to throw caution to the wind and have a real go. We need to trust that our back 4 and goalie will take care of any chances the opposition get (and they will do, in any game).

[The9]

Surely for the next games against the sides around us.

That may not mean the old fashioned 442 but surely we need to get another striker on the pitch

I'd start with long and Gabbiadini. Long covers a lot of grass and is probably more effective in the air than the awful Carrillo.

 

Just sticking with the same set up is failing miserably. MP won't do this though

 

We didn't need 2 up front as a starting formation at any point in the past 4 seasons when finishing in the top 8, so why do we need it now? What we actually need is someone like Sims to run at people and create a bit of upset and space in opposing defences. The predictability is doing for us, every team knows what we're going to do before we do it. The odd pass through the middle might be an idea as well.

 

Also, Carrillo isn't "awful" by any stretch of the imagination.

[The9]

Whether or not we need or start with 2 up front, we need to win, we need 3pts so we need to score. We have to come out and attack. Keeping it tight is not useful to us anymore. It's time (or was time a few weeks ago) to throw caution to the wind and have a real go. We need to trust that our back 4 and goalie will take care of any chances the opposition get (and they will do, in any game).

 

Our best chance of winning is to not concede a goal. Basic stats. Concede 0, worst case scenario is 1 point. Score 2, and you still need another goal to average as many points as for conceding 0. Of course there's an element of complacency that our system will always work, when actually some of the reasons it worked before have gone (eg Mane and Pelle switching roles in open play, the ability to finish chances, players not just running down the wing and crossing to no-one every bloody time), but what's required is flexing within that system rather than entirely overhauling it - the basic principle of defensive stability throttling opposition chance creation and Saints having 4 attacking players doing their thing at the other end is still good in theory, it's just the practical execution of it that's lacking.

[Kingsbridge Saint]

Two up front will force the team to get the ball forward faster as there will be less opportunity for the soft sideways option. Playing the way we do leaves our 1 up front so isolated its like playing with 10 men. I feel so sorry for Gabbi and Carillo - they have been hung out to dry by this Goon of a Manager.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Two up front will force the team to get the ball forward faster as there will be less opportunity for the soft sideways option

 

Stick it in the mixer.

 

 

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[SKD]

Stick it in the mixer.

 

 

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Just like Juve did last night? Having 2 forwards and 2 wingers stretches the game leaving space in between the fullback / CB allowing players, especially with the movement / pace of Gabbi to get in behind.

 

I'd love for us to really have a go these next few games and play 2 wingers with Gabbi slightly behind of Carillo/Austin who would naturally drop deeper allowing Gabbi to run off them in behind.

 

At the moment we are far to reliant on our fullbacks offering our only width, which pretty much squeeze's the game.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Just like Juve did last night? Having 2 forwards and 2 wingers stretches the game leaving space in between the fullback / CB allowing players, especially with the movement / pace of Gabbi to get in behind.

 

I'd love for us to really have a go these next few games and play 2 wingers with Gabbi slightly behind of Carillo/Austin who would naturally drop deeper allowing Gabbi to run off them in behind.

 

At the moment we are far to reliant on our fullbacks offering our only width, which pretty much squeeze's the game.

 

If we had Chiellini at centre half instead of Wes, Khedira in the midfield instead of OR & we had Costa & Dybala supporting Higuain, I’d agree with you. Why stop at Juve, why not set up like Man C or Barca the next 2 games. I’d love for us to really have a go like they do.

 

 

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[SKD]

If we had Chiellini at centre half instead of Wes, Khedira in the midfield instead of OR & we had Costa & Dybala supporting Higuain, I’d agree with you. Why stop at Juve, why not set up like Man C or Barca the next 2 games. I’d love for us to really have a go like they do.

 

 

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We're playing Newcastle, not Tottenham. We don't need all them players, our squad is much better than Newcastle's as it is.

 

My point about Juve was that they didn't pump the ball into the box, but my point still stands - but I tell you what, let's continue doing what we do best, play defensively and draw

Edited 8 March, 2018 by SKD

[Whitey Grandad]

There was a reference to a Pep Guardiola quote last night during the Man City game. Something along the lines of 'The object of the game is to get the ball into the other team's net. How you do it is not important [so let me do it my way, or something]'

 

I came upon this exhaustive exhamination of Bielsa'sfootballing philosophy:

 

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/share-download-fm-17-tactics/363445-revolutionary-marcelo-el-loco-bielsas-3-3-3-1-a.html

[the saint in winchester]

Two up front will force the team to get the ball forward faster as there will be less opportunity for the soft sideways option. Playing the way we do leaves our 1 up front so isolated its like playing with 10 men. I feel so sorry for Gabbi and Carillo - they have been hung out to dry by this Goon of a Manager.

 

One up front in a 4-2-3-1 is fine if the 3 are attack-minded rather than ball recyclers. Kane didn't seem to be at his best last night, but with Son, Alli and Eriksson running at Juve and shooting on goal, they were a threat. We don't see our 3 do that. Instead we see the 1 isolated and the 3 behind playing keep ball.

[SKD]

Another game, another isolated CF. Will Sunday be the day?

[Dark Munster]

Another game, another isolated CF. Will Sunday be the day?

Possibly. If the clown has been sacked by then.

[Matthew Le God]

Another game, another isolated CF. Will Sunday be the day?

 

If the 3 in a 4-2-3-1 are instructed to support the lone striker then there really isn't anything wrong with having a lone striker.

[Whitey Grandad]

If the 3 in a 4-2-3-1 are instructed to support the lone striker then there really isn't anything wrong with having a lone striker.

 

Indeed, but they all have to play as a unit.

[Dellman]

Two forwards to start? I remember when five forwards started and that was normal...and Saints scored 100 goals in a season, can't remember which year, probably the year Derek Reeves got 40 goals. Happy days!