Watford v Saints - Post Match Meltdown

[Graffito]

Is it unreasonable to expect this team to be able to defend a lead? Any number of duffer teams have come to St Mary's in recent seasons and defended deep and taken points. Even the top six have often found it difficult to get past the bus. Yet our lot seem incapable of defending deep. Begs the question why the manager keeps taking decisions which suggest we are playing to see out games but is he really being cautious by telling them to defend deep. Why would he tell them to defend deep? After all, it clearly doesn't work so it's the opposite of cautious, it's high risk. Why would he do it? We saw this phenomenon last season under Puel. This season, same players (more or less), different manager. I see a lack of aggression from some players (we're basically a soft touch) and a collective mental fragility.

[Pilchards]

We were awful in the second half. Couldn’t string two passes together, and never tested them at all.

 

And yet he thinks it went well. What a moron.

 

 

****ing hell what game was he watching?

We were slicing the ball out of touch, misplacing passes and pumping it back to Watford’s defence to attack again.

I’m surprised Silva never took his goalie off for another striker.

Edited 13 January, 2018 by Pilchards

[The Cat]

****ing hell what game was he watching?

We were slicing the ball out of touch, misplacing passes and pumping it back to Watford’s defence to arrack again.

I’m surprised Silva never took his goalie off for another striker.

 

Exactly. Other than a Hjojberg header that drifted harmlessly over I don't remember us having a shot in the second half.

[Dark Munster]

Im surprised McCarthy didn't appeal a hell of a lot more.

He was already on a yellow.

[shurlock]

Successful teams are able to penetrate the defence by running, dribbling and/or passing the ball in a forward direction

 

Les Reed (2004), The Official FA Guide to Basic Team Coaching, Hodder and Stoughton.

[Whitey Grandad]

As, I suspect, was WG's

 

Indeed it was [emoji2]

 

That’s the trouble with t’Internet, no sense of humour.

[wooley7]

In the first half today the game was very open and not too tactical and the fact we have better players showed. We played the better football and, at times, looked a good side. I still didn't see what our pattern of play was and our shape was a bit disjointed.

In the second half when the manager got more involved and the game changed on a tactical level we struggled. I really don't think this group of players have become poor, we have players we have all seen perform well in the past. At this level the mangers can make such a difference and ours just doesn't seem to be able to affect the game. At some point he has to just let them go out and play and stop restricting our play with his tactics. Kind of **** it let's just go for it.

I really believe we have good enough players to stay up, (probably 8th best squad in the league) it's the mangers negativity that is holding us back and today's game really highlighted this for me.

 

 

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[HedgeEnder]

On the train home having had several (or more) pints for the last time in the Bree Louise near Euston station. Met fans from Leicester, Burnley, Fleetwood, watford, Burnley, Palace. The interesting thread from all these fans was that they see saints as a stable premier league side who shouldn't be on the relegation dogfight. Especially the Leicester fans who were almost unanimously not impressed with Puel. (I warned them if they get into Europe (unlikely)).

 

We should have wrapped that up by half time. We didn't react to their substitutions. Deeney is a thug and we couldn't handle him. I can't believe how much we gave the ball away in Midfield and "hoofing" the ball out of defence. Really disappointed but my last beers in the Bree Louise, being demolished for HS2) almost made up for it!.

 

We went in there before the game. Cracking little pub and great pies. Shame it's being demolished ?

[Pamplemousse]

Hopefully the players will be up for the FA Cup match. Need to get revenge on them.

[Roboze]

i check out bbc sport site at least 5 times a day thinking.... he must be sacked by now...........it's not happening is it...think the club see him as MAJOR long term, ie we get relegated he stays and rebuilds the the team as he wants it, and turns into Wenger/ferguson type of character.........thats all well and good except for the fact that those two seems to know what they are doing!!

[spyinthesky]

Just watched the game on MOTD

 

Just a snapshot view of course but for the last goal our defenders were poor in the air for the cross into the box and McCarthy should have wiped out the chap who scored the goal rather than give a very derisory attempt at a challenge

[Badger]

Just watched the game on MOTD

 

Just a snapshot view of course but for the last goal our defenders were poor in the air for the cross into the box and McCarthy should have wiped out the chap who scored the goal rather than give a very derisory attempt at a challenge

 

I noticed one of the defenders sprawling on the ground as the ball reaches the Watford player, immediate thought was whether he could have cut it out.

 

What surprised me after though was seeing Watford's first goal again in the analysis , when again one of the CB's (Stephens I think) was again seen falling over. Not much hope if we have two Bambi's on ice in that position. How people don't think we need improvements at CB is remarkable.

[Wes Tender]

It’s no good complaining about a handball because the reality is the team weren’t good enough to hold on it increase a 2-goal lead. A quality premier league side would have played a possession game and looked to catch them as they became frustrated. Instead MP had the team defending with backs to the wall.

 

Yes it is. They stole two points from us by cheating. The rest of what you say I agree with, but it is definitely worth complaining about the decision. Newcastle should have had a penalty awarded agaisnt them for handball in the match shown after ours and again the call went up for video evidence. The trouble is, the authorities don't care a toss about teams like us. It will only come when the glory teams are consistently robbed of points, but it happens less to them.

[trousers]

Indeed it was [emoji2]

 

That’s the trouble with t’Internet, difficult to tell the difference between people's normal demeanor and when they're trying to be humourous.

 

Indeed

[vectraman]

Just Watched motd, and having seen the 2nd Watford goal, I do have some sympathy for the match officials.

At normal, as it happened speed on TV it wasn't obvious that it was handball. I can see how it was missed by the officials.

If McCarthy had come out and claimed the ball it simply wouldn't have happened anyway...

 

Sadly, ultimate blame is at the managers door. Sat back and tried to take 2-0, should have carried on the way we were first half. Watford subs were astute, ours, umm, were not.

[Dark Munster]

Successful teams are able to penetrate the defence by running, dribbling and/or passing the ball in a forward direction

Les Reed (2004), The Official FA Guide to Basic Team Coaching, Hodder and Stoughton.

"Unsuccessful clubs hire clowns as managers and then refuse to sack them until it's too late."

 

The Official Guide to Basic Club Management (2018), Retrieved from www.saintsweb.co.uk

[Whitey Grandad]

Just Watched motd, and having seen the 2nd Watford goal, I do have some sympathy for the match officials.

At normal, as it happened speed on TV it wasn't obvious that it was handball. I can see how it was missed by the officials.

If McCarthy had come out and claimed the ball it simply wouldn't have happened anyway...

 

Sadly, ultimate blame is at the managers door. Sat back and tried to take 2-0, should have carried on the way we were first half. Watford subs were astute, ours, umm, were not.

 

What the hell was McCarthy doing? The ball comes across at head height and yet he has both hands below his waist and actually flinches away from the ball. We are all, quite rightly, incensed that the handball went unnoticed but if it had come of his head McCarthy would have been nowhere near it anyway.

[Whitey Grandad]

Indeed

 

I saw what you did there

 

For the record, everything I say is tongue in cheek. At least, not to be taken seriously. [emoji14]

[Turkish]

Les Reed (2004), The Official FA Guide to Basic Team Coaching, Hodder and Stoughton.

 

I've not read it but assume it includes the default "get it forwarrrrrd" "don't mess about with it" a solid 4-4-2 formation with two pacy widemen, a midfielder terror alongside a hardman with a good big lad up front with a good little lad to pick up the flicks

[skintsaint]

I've not read it but assume it includes the default "get it forwarrrrrd" "don't mess about with it" a solid 4-4-2 formation with two pacy widemen, a midfielder terror alongside a hardman with a good big lad up front with a good little lad to pick up the flicks

 

Worked for Watford 2nd half!

[PeteCampbell]

Fair result. Focus will be on the handball but they came out made changes and attacked second half, always felt it was coming.

 

Did very well first half, JWP excellent. But what does he say at half time? I get Watford were always going to come out fired up with nothing to lose, but why does MP always make us worse with his changes?

 

4 games won and this is why. He beat 4 managers no longer in their jobs, teams in a mess. Watford are in an awful run, but Silva made changes and influenced the game positively. MP just hasn't done that in any game.

 

Would say he's got to go, but nothing in the last 7 or 8 games has influenced that, it was clear long ago.

 

We will go down under him. He can't win football matches, which is a bit of a problem.

 

 

Exactly what I was thinking about half-time. Worst thing in the world was for half-time to come and for him to get his "message" across to the players

[Pilchards]

What the hell was McCarthy doing? The ball comes across at head height and yet he has both hands below his waist and actually flinches away from the ball. We are all, quite rightly, incensed that the handball went unnoticed but if it had come of his head McCarthy would have been nowhere near it anyway.

 

Still prefer him than Forster any day.

[Pilchards]

Exactly what I was thinking about half-time. Worst thing in the world was for half-time to come and for him to get his "message" across to the players

 

Scary thought really as it’s been happening far too often.

I just wish the captain would come out second half and tells the players to keep playing and ignore the clown.

[Suomi Saint]

Scary thought really as it’s been happening far too often.

I just wish the captain would come out second half and tells the players to keep playing and ignore the clown.

 

I agree, but we have no strong leader in the team to organise such an insurrection.

[rooney]

Tactics wrong in second half but bullied again by a team. We need big strong lumps in our spine as Pardew immediately noticed when he took over. A new manager will not stop our players from continually giving the ball away that lead to goals against. Positives were the first placed goal from JWP and the super build up involving Long, Tadic and JWP for our second. Feel very disappointed after being 0-2 up.

[Donatello]

Successful teams are able to penetrate the defence by running, dribbling and/or passing the ball in a forward direction

 

Les Reed (2004), The Official FA Guide to Basic Team Coaching, Hodder and Stoughton.

 

Classic

[Norm]

Deeney coming on made the difference, he bullied our CB’s. I really can’t believe MP told the players to defend. Nobody prepared to give Watford credit for their 2nd half performance. We were steamrolled by a more determined side.

[Mr X]

The worst thing about Pelligrino is he seems to have no realisation whatsover of how bad we are under him, he honestly thinks he is doing a great job & we are playing good football & will win lots of games..... Totally deluded!

 

I get the impression he's here to stay even if we lost all remaining games the club have made up their mind to stick with him

...... Till the bitter end!........ & Oh will it be bitter!

 

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[Shroppie]

Feel the criticism of McCarthy is unbelievably unjust. I'll have to watch it again, but the movement of the ball on account of the handball was completely unpredictable, i.e. that still is not representative of how the ball reached that position. He had a cracking game, imo. But as above, I'd like to see it again.

I think you're right. He was slow coming out, but was covering the header. When no header came the ball should have continued across the goal and that's where AM was moving. The handball was unexpected and completely changed the ball's trajectory.

 

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[Andy Durman]

Deeney coming on made the difference, he bullied our CB’s. I really can’t believe MP told the players to defend. Nobody prepared to give Watford credit for their 2nd half performance. We were steamrolled by a more determined side.

 

Finally a simple post that summarizes perfectly.

[Shroppie]

Im surprised McCarthy didn't appeal a hell of a lot more.

As others have said, he was on a yellow. The way cards were being liberally dished out (to us, not them) he would probably have been sent off. Cedric got yellow.

 

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[OldNick]

to not break the game up in the last 10 minutes by using the subs is criminal. Every manager ,even Pep brings on a sub to break the oppositions play at the end of games

[SaintRobbie]

Deeney coming on made the difference, he bullied our CB’s. I really can’t believe MP told the players to defend. Nobody prepared to give Watford credit for their 2nd half performance. We were steamrolled by a more determined side.

 

Good point well made.

So, the question I would ask is why our team - who are supposed to be fighting for their Premier League lives - were less determined?

 

That’s down to leadership.

 

Boardroom failures of leadership to maintain a Premier League team of determined players and failure to appoint a manager who can lead them through this. But the main blame in this case squarely sits with MP - how you throw away a 2 goal lead at half time regardless of a cheating handball shows total lack of motivational skill, tactical knowledge and leadership.

 

 

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[austsaint]

Deeney coming on made the difference, he bullied our CB’s. I really can’t believe MP told the players to defend. Nobody prepared to give Watford credit for their 2nd half performance. We were steamrolled by a more determined side.

 

True what you say, yet Pellegrino could have made changes to address the Watford tactical changes. He could have played 3 CBs bringing on Bednarek and replacing one of the attacking players who faded out of the game ie Tadic or Ward-Prowse; he could have shored up the midfield much earlier by replacing Davis with Lemina and keeping Romeu higher up the pitch and finally he could have brought on Boufal to give Watford something to think about as our attackers had put the cue in the rack 2nd half. Yes, Watford responded and showed greater desire and work rate, but our Manager could have acted much earlier.

[ericofarabia]

But six points and seven places above us. As are West Ham, and Crystal Palace, despite their atrocious starts to the season.

 

WBA ..... 1 win in 20 games ..... only 2 points behind us

[ericofarabia]

True what you say, yet Pellegrino could have made changes to address the Watford tactical changes. He could have played 3 CBs bringing on Bednarek and replacing one of the attacking players who faded out of the game ie Tadic or Ward-Prowse; he could have shored up the midfield much earlier by replacing Davis with Lemina and keeping Romeu higher up the pitch and finally he could have brought on Boufal to give Watford something to think about as our attackers had put the cue in the rack 2nd half. Yes, Watford responded and showed greater desire and work rate, but our Manager could have acted much earlier.

 

I've said it numerous times ... his complete lack of reaction to opposition subs/tactical changes have cost us. Off the top of my head ......

Burnley at SMS changed to 2 up front and won 1-0. (- 1pt)

Arsenal H ... midfield ran themselves into the ground, we sit back, let them attack at will, too late making any changes Arsenal late equaliser from their sub!! (-2pts)

Huddersfield at SMS ... totally in control, 1 up, they change to 2 up front and get an equaliser whilst we changed nothing tactically until too late. (-2 pts)

Palace at SMS 1 up totally in control, they change to 2 up front, we do zilch and lose 2-1 from 1 up. (-2 pts)

Watford 2-0 up Watfprd all over the place chg at HT to 2 up front, we sit back and pay the price again. (-2 pts)

 

9 points down the swanee which could and should have been avoided.

 

Has he actually made any game winning / saving changes at al

[benjii]

Don't forget Brighton away.

[Turkish]

Les Reed (2004), The Official FA Guide to Basic Team Coaching, Hodder and Stoughton.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Official-Guide-Basic-Team-Coaching/dp/0340816007

 

Worth every penny

[shurlock]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Official-Guide-Basic-Team-Coaching/dp/0340816007

 

Worth every penny

 

[Chez]

I thought we played pretty well first half. Did Watford sit back and defend? No, they were just ****, gave the ball away a lot and we used that to our advantage, pressed them and got the goals we deserved.

 

I thought we played very poorly second half. Did we sit back and defend. No, we were just ****, gave the ball away a lot ad Watford used that to their advantage, they pressed us back and they get their goals they perhaps deserved, all be it the second was hand ball.

 

As you can see I don't agree with the 'sit back and defend tactic' theory.

 

In my eyes one of the biggest problems is that our snappy, get tight to the opponent, limit their space, limit their time style fails once players start to get a tired. We run out of puff, usually about 45 to 60 minutes. Once that happens opponents start to have more time, pass it better and cause us lots of problems defensively. We don't sit back by design, we are forced back. That was certainly the case yesterday anyway.

 

Yesterday saw Davies blowing out his Arsenal after 45 minutes. For about 6 or 7 minutes before the goal they were all over us. For me a sub needed to be made. Davis made a terrible error which cost us the goal. MoPo has been slated for his subs, sometimes way too harshly, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but that period of play was so poor and it looked so obvious to me that Davis should be subbed. At that point I felt like joining the MoPo is clueless bandwagon.

 

But I'd like to continue to push the theory that the Manager AND the players are the problem. Between the goals you have to ask where the **** was Romeu, JWP and HOj. They complexly disappeared, as did all composure from the back four. Hoofs, slices, misplaced passes. Watford hustled, went direct and we looked lightweight. We are lightweight by the way and have been since, Pelle Wanyama etc left.

 

One thing missing on this thread is what fans would have done to resolve the problems we were having after we conceded the first. Both CB were being bullied. The midfield bypassed. But what options were there? Where was our land of the giant CB to bring on to cope with Deeney? Who else was there to bring free legs on for JWP or Hoj - who was ****ing terrible second half by the way. Would an extra CB have been the answer? Blimey, I just can't imagine how many more 'why be so defensive' posts there would have been on here if MoPo had. But that was what I was thinking.

 

I am in slight agreement with a few posters that McCarthy might have cleaned Decoure out Schumacher style to prevent the goal and perhaps he didn't want to get hurt, but at the speed these guys are playing it might have been that he was just a little late to get there. Have to say the save he made before their first goal was one of the best I have seen by a saints keeper for a while - well since FF got here.

 

I know the majority on here blame MoPo for everything. I never wanted him myself and don't back him, even if this post might suggest it, but players win games as well as tactics and I'm afraid ours are lacking. Yes we showed we can play first half, but Watford are not a great team (I might add that if you blame MoPo for second half you have to credit him for the first) and if your legs only last for half a game then that's not acceptable.

 

Things do look ominous. As others have said, turning wins into draws and draws into defeats mirrors 2005. Can we turn it around? I am not so sure. Will a new manager turn it around? Again, I am not so sure.

Edited 14 January, 2018 by Chez

[Whitey Grandad]

to not break the game up in the last 10 minutes by using the subs is criminal. Every manager ,even Pep brings on a sub to break the oppositions play at the end of games

 

This, and many other criticisms. I’ve come to believe that he can’t read a game and make the necessary changes. This is extremely worrying.

[Whitey Grandad]

I've said it numerous times ... his complete lack of reaction to opposition subs/tactical changes have cost us. Off the top of my head ......

Burnley at SMS changed to 2 up front and won 1-0. (- 1pt)

Arsenal H ... midfield ran themselves into the ground, we sit back, let them attack at will, too late making any changes Arsenal late equaliser from their sub!! (-2pts)

Huddersfield at SMS ... totally in control, 1 up, they change to 2 up front and get an equaliser whilst we changed nothing tactically until too late. (-2 pts)

Palace at SMS 1 up totally in control, they change to 2 up front, we do zilch and lose 2-1 from 1 up. (-2 pts)

Watford 2-0 up Watfprd all over the place chg at HT to 2 up front, we sit back and pay the price again. (-2 pts)

 

9 points down the swanee which could and should have been avoided.

 

Has he actually made any game winning / saving changes at al

 

It’s even worse than that. Palace at home was -3pts, not -2 [emoji17]

[Chez]

I've said it numerous times ... his complete lack of reaction to opposition subs/tactical changes have cost us. Off the top of my head ......

Burnley at SMS changed to 2 up front and won 1-0. (- 1pt)

Arsenal H ... midfield ran themselves into the ground, we sit back, let them attack at will, too late making any changes Arsenal late equaliser from their sub!! (-2pts)

Huddersfield at SMS ... totally in control, 1 up, they change to 2 up front and get an equaliser whilst we changed nothing tactically until too late. (-2 pts)

Palace at SMS 1 up totally in control, they change to 2 up front, we do zilch and lose 2-1 from 1 up. (-2 pts)

Watford 2-0 up Watfprd all over the place chg at HT to 2 up front, we sit back and pay the price again. (-2 pts)

 

9 points down the swanee which could and should have been avoided.

 

Has he actually made any game winning / saving changes at al

decent analysis. I can't remember the specific game, but didn't he bring Austin on and he scored straight away in one game? Memory might be playing tricks on me. We've only win four, so the answer is probably no.

 

Can I just say that if we have taken the lead in the first place then his tactics put in place must have something to do with that. We are failing in the second half. Legs not up to? Failing to replace players with fresh legs at right time another issue.

Edited 14 January, 2018 by Chez

[Chez]

This, and many other criticisms. I’ve come to believe that he can’t read a game and make the necessary changes. This is extremely worrying.

I'm not sure about the other criticisms, but hard to disagree about necessary changes, or timely changes. He, like all managers should watch game from the stands. The higher vantage point must help see a game better and make the right tactical decisions.

[Window Cleaner]

Out of interest does anyone have any idea why Hojbjerg is continually preferred to Lemina ? I don't really rate Hojbjerg, never have, never will probably and Lemina is a far better player.

[Chez]

Out of interest does anyone have any idea why Hojbjerg is continually preferred to Lemina ? I don't really rate Hojbjerg, never have, never will probably and Lemina is a far better player.

Why not play both.

[Shroppie]

Although I was at the game I wasn't thinking of commenting as there are do many experts on here already.

 

But, in the cold light of day, and with anger slightly subsided, here goes.

 

Firstly, this was better. In the first half we expressed ourselves, got forward, scored two goals. Both by a player regularly derided on here as being negative, only passing backwards and not getting into goal-scoring positions.

 

Obviously the second half was very different, but not, as so many seem to be suggesting, because we changed tactics and decided, or were told, to fall back and defend. We didn't "invite them on". No. We tried to continue with the same tactics from the first half, which had worked because Watford weren't playing in a way that would stop us. The second half was different because Watford brought on strong, physical players, upped their tempo and played much more directly. Simply, we were bullied, and helped a lot by the ref.

 

But where I agree with others is that MP was too slow to counter their changes. Lemina for Davis was right, but maybe a bit late. He could have brought on another CB and sacrificed JWP or Tadic. That might have worked, but in his defence, if MP had done that, it would have been accepting that we were just going to park the bus and try to hold on.

 

In my very humble opinion, we defended very strongly against the onslaught. Hoedt and Cedric outstanding. Hojbjerg and Romeu good as well, but all did their bit. Accepting that Davis lost the ball for the first goal, but another view is that he was trying to get our passing game going again. We'd lost composure and were hoofing. The ball just kept coming back. It was right to try to play our way out.

 

I can also just about understand the other subs not being used earlier. We were beginning to weather the storm with the players on the pitch and having two time-wasting subs for added time would have been good.

 

And as for the handball goal - one of the worst bits of refereeing I've seen in a long time. The ref's whole body language suggested he wasn't going to be challenged or check with the assistant. Yellow out very quickly for Cedric. Why wasn't Bertrand more forceful? He has the right to be so, as captain. When the hell will football come out of the dark ages and catch up with pretty-well every other sport using video technology. These mistakes must be put right immediatey. No amount of retrospective action will get us two points back, and that could mean relegation - a cost of tens of millions.

 

And to say it didn't matter as we'd had a bad second half is utter rubbish. It made all the difference. If the goal hadn't stood, and we'd held out, I would have called it a great morale-boosting rearguard defensive display earning a critical three points. But now, because of cheating, it's the opposite. I'm gutted, and gutted for the team, who I thought we're brilliant today. Keep playing with that spirit and well stay up.

 

Despite the manager.

 

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[austsaint]

Why not play both.

 

Indeed, play both. More than ever Saints need their best players on the pitch - and that includes Hojbjerg, Lemina, Romeu and Boufal.

[shurlock]

Understand Yoshida was out injured; anyone know what the story was with Redmond?

[Graffito]

Understand Yoshida was out injured; anyone know what the story was with Redmond?

 

Left at home for tactical reasons.