Why we are where we are -

[Fitzhugh Fella]

When Marcus Liebherr finally purchased the ashes of Southampton FC in July 2009 there was a collective sigh of relief all around. It had been a close thing with the Matthew Le Tissier-backed Pinnacle consortium nearly turning us into the laughing stock that was, shortly afterwards, the fate instead of our fishy neighbours down the M27. Phew!

 

Although I was as delighted as the next fan the club had a future, I remember getting stick at the time for pointing out that although we had now been “rescued” by a bone fide and wealthy new owner, as fans we now had to accept our destiny would forever be out of our hands, or in other words, the new owner could do whatever he or she wanted without giving the supporters a second thought. Even Rupert Lowe had to consider the shareholders first and foremost, but now we were at the mercy of one man – Mr Marcus Liebherr.

 

Happily for us our new saviour appeared to be a man of integrity who, while undoubtedly chuffed to bits that he had acquired a bargain for around £15m, – a sum that looks a pittance today – he did actually look like he cared about the footballing side of things too. Who can forget him and his camera at Wembley? Aided by Nicola Cortese who seemed to have liberal access to the Liebherr cheque book, it didn’t take long before we were proudly back in the big time. We are Southampton, we come from League One was belted out with gusto on many a Premier League ground.

 

Saints fans had not had it so good since the early 80s, the football was widely praised, the Academy was blossoming and, although Cortese upset many with his ruthlessness and disdain for our tradition, we could all live with it while results were positive and the football flowed. But then Marcus unexpectedly passed away. That truly was the day the music died.

 

At first it looked like, under daughter Katharina, things would continue in the same vein, but no that was, in hindsight, too much to hope for. It didn’t take long for her to realise that the singularly-driven Cortese was just a little bit too free and easy with the Liebherr family fortune and, while that was having the desired effect on the field with Pochettino and his players giving the top 6 a run for their money, her inheritance was taking a serious hit.

Not unreasonably she grabbed the reins, seized back control. Cortese left abruptly and acrimoniously, a signal to the ambitious manager and his leading players that the dream of Champions League football with Southampton at least was over. Cue Exodus. One by one they left, departing not a sinking ship exactly but one which had been full steam ahead one minute, only for a new captain to pull on the brakes and alter course for shallower waters. But there was yet hope, Ronald Koeman looked to be an inspired replacement and it was full steam ahead for a while, helped by the fact there were still many players left over from the Marcus/Nicola years who could still do a job ie the likes of Wanyama, Fonte, Rodrigues, Clyne, Schneiderlin and Davis.

But the driving ambition had gone along with access to serious cash. Les Reed (once Cortese’s underling but in the vacuum now given more power) and Koeman did not see eye to eye, with the former thinking he should have more involvement in team matters and the proud but haughty Dutchman wanting to do things his way. More players from the glory years left and, somewhere along the way, Katharina decided she too wanted out. Cash rich, trustworthy and honourable owners do not grow on trees as Ms Liebherr was soon to find out and after several false dawns she eventually ended up selling 80% to a Chinese business man, Mr Gao who had a questionable enough background for the deal to pass before relevant authorities before it was finally allowed. No smoke without fire thought the vast majority of worried Sotonians.

 

Ms Liebherr was at pains to point out she would have only sold to people who would take Southampton onwards and upwards, but despite her well-meaning intentions she had little choice. She was well within her rights of course, it was her club to do as she pleased and as I point out in the first paragraph the fans simply had to accept it.

 

In the two years it took to finally sell Southampton, Les Reed, now in virtual sole control of footballing matters, made two poor-looking managerial choices, although the more Mauricio Pellegrino has struggled the higher his predecessor Claude Puel’s reputation has soared. Whatever, the truth remains under two mediocre managers, good players have left to be replaced by inferior ones. Under those circumstances decline has been inevitable. The famed and much-vaunted Academy too seems to have dried up. Talk of Champions League football and five-year plans have melted away with the club content to rely on vacuous slogans like “we march on” to paper over the widening cracks and unfulfilled expectations that had unrealistically been encouraged to rise unchecked.

 

To be frank it was a miracle that the club managed to finish in the top 8, four seasons on the trot. That was some achievement, but even as last season drew to an end the writing had started to appear on the wall in a train of thought that we had peaked. That’s Ok Saints fans are not stupid, we had had several years of punching above our weight, but we would settle for mid-table now with perhaps a serious pot at a Cup while we regrouped.

 

But now, as 2018 gets underway, the club seem unable to stop the decline and as fans we can only watch the likely forthcoming Armageddon with horror, unable to have any direct influence whatsoever. The Chairman’s interview this week has been a car crash in itself, with his continual references to us suddenly being “a small club” who are where we are because our best player demanded – and got - a transfer. I’ve met Mr Krueger, he comes across a nice, decent man, but I’ve got to not mince my words here, he is clueless when it comes to communicating with the fan base. He seriously thinks the fans would be placated over the decline on the pitch with the knowledge our reputation in China is on the up. His corporate gobbledegook baffles, infuriates and insults the fans in equal measures. We are desperate not only for some sure-footed leadership but someone who can at least communicate and let us down gently in our own language.

 

It’s a sign of the times in modern-day football that Southampton fans and for that matter fans in general are now hostages to their own fate, mass protests will cut little ice anymore, non-attendance won’t ruffle any feathers in Peking or Shanghai, the truth is we lost our football club in July 2006 and our control or influence ain’t never coming back. The only consolation I can think of is many other clubs are in similar situations. Unless you are fortunate to have a rich owner, a la the top 6, who really cares about what goes on pitch-side, then most of us will all forever be at the mercy of the quest for profit ahead of glory.

 

See you at Fulham!

[hypochondriac]

I'd still rather a shady billionaire was in charge than something like a fans consortium run by someone awful like Richard Chorley.

[minime]

have a read of this

 

[benjii]

Basically, we've made a mistake with a managerial appointment.

 

Ridiculous to start making valedictory pronouncements. As all historians know, perspective is key.

[Sour Mash]

When Marcus Liebherr finally purchased the ashes of Southampton FC in July 2009 there was a collective sigh of relief all around. It had been a close thing with the Matthew Le Tissier-backed Pinnacle consortium nearly turning us into the laughing stock that was, shortly afterwards, the fate instead of our fishy neighbours down the M27. Phew!

 

Although I was as delighted as the next fan the club had a future, I remember getting stick at the time for pointing out that although we had now been “rescued” by a bone fide and wealthy new owner, as fans we now had to accept our destiny would forever be out of our hands, or in other words, the new owner could do whatever he or she wanted without giving the supporters a second thought. Even Rupert Lowe had to consider the shareholders first and foremost, but now we were at the mercy of one man – Mr Marcus Liebherr.

 

Happily for us our new saviour appeared to be a man of integrity who, while undoubtedly chuffed to bits that he had acquired a bargain for around £15m, – a sum that looks a pittance today – he did actually look like he cared about the footballing side of things too. Who can forget him and his camera at Wembley? Aided by Nicola Cortese who seemed to have liberal access to the Liebherr cheque book, it didn’t take long before we were proudly back in the big time. We are Southampton, we come from League One was belted out with gusto on many a Premier League ground.

 

Saints fans had not had it so good since the early 80s, the football was widely praised, the Academy was blossoming and, although Cortese upset many with his ruthlessness and disdain for our tradition, we could all live with it while results were positive and the football flowed. But then Marcus unexpectedly passed away. That truly was the day the music died.

 

At first it looked like, under daughter Katharina, things would continue in the same vein, but no that was, in hindsight, too much to hope for. It didn’t take long for her to realise that the singularly-driven Cortese was just a little bit too free and easy with the Liebherr family fortune and, while that was having the desired effect on the field with Pochettino and his players giving the top 6 a run for their money, her inheritance was taking a serious hit.

Not unreasonably she grabbed the reins, seized back control. Cortese left abruptly and acrimoniously, a signal to the ambitious manager and his leading players that the dream of Champions League football with Southampton at least was over. Cue Exodus. One by one they left, departing not a sinking ship exactly but one which had been full steam ahead one minute, only for a new captain to pull on the brakes and alter course for shallower waters. But there was yet hope, Ronald Koeman looked to be an inspired replacement and it was full steam ahead for a while, helped by the fact there were still many players left over from the Marcus/Nicola years who could still do a job ie the likes of Wanyama, Fonte, Rodrigues, Clyne, Schneiderlin and Davis.

But the driving ambition had gone along with access to serious cash. Les Reed (once Cortese’s underling but in the vacuum now given more power) and Koeman did not see eye to eye, with the former thinking he should have more involvement in team matters and the proud but haughty Dutchman wanting to do things his way. More players from the glory years left and, somewhere along the way, Katharina decided she too wanted out. Cash rich, trustworthy and honourable owners do not grow on trees as Ms Liebherr was soon to find out and after several false dawns she eventually ended up selling 80% to a Chinese business man, Mr Gao who had a questionable enough background for the deal to pass before relevant authorities before it was finally allowed. No smoke without fire thought the vast majority of worried Sotonians.

 

Ms Liebherr was at pains to point out she would have only sold to people who would take Southampton onwards and upwards, but despite her well-meaning intentions she had little choice. She was well within her rights of course, it was her club to do as she pleased and as I point out in the first paragraph the fans simply had to accept it.

 

In the two years it took to finally sell Southampton, Les Reed, now in virtual sole control of footballing matters, made two poor-looking managerial choices, although the more Mauricio Pellegrino has struggled the higher his predecessor Claude Puel’s reputation has soared. Whatever, the truth remains under two mediocre managers, good players have left to be replaced by inferior ones. Under those circumstances decline has been inevitable. The famed and much-vaunted Academy too seems to have dried up. Talk of Champions League football and five-year plans have melted away with the club content to rely on vacuous slogans like “we march on” to paper over the widening cracks and unfulfilled expectations that had unrealistically been encouraged to rise unchecked.

 

To be frank it was a miracle that the club managed to finish in the top 8, four seasons on the trot. That was some achievement, but even as last season drew to an end the writing had started to appear on the wall in a train of thought that we had peaked. That’s Ok Saints fans are not stupid, we had had several years of punching above our weight, but we would settle for mid-table now with perhaps a serious pot at a Cup while we regrouped.

 

But now, as 2018 gets underway, the club seem unable to stop the decline and as fans we can only watch the likely forthcoming Armageddon with horror, unable to have any direct influence whatsoever. The Chairman’s interview this week has been a car crash in itself, with his continual references to us suddenly being “a small club” who are where we are because our best player demanded – and got - a transfer. I’ve met Mr Krueger, he comes across a nice, decent man, but I’ve got to not mince my words here, he is clueless when it comes to communicating with the fan base. He seriously thinks the fans would be placated over the decline on the pitch with the knowledge our reputation in China is on the up. His corporate gobbledegook baffles, infuriates and insults the fans in equal measures. We are desperate not only for some sure-footed leadership but someone who can at least communicate and let us down gently in our own language.

 

It’s a sign of the times in modern-day football that Southampton fans and for that matter fans in general are now hostages to their own fate, mass protests will cut little ice anymore, non-attendance won’t ruffle any feathers in Peking or Shanghai, the truth is we lost our football club in July 2006 and our control or influence ain’t never coming back. The only consolation I can think of is many other clubs are in similar situations. Unless you are fortunate to have a rich owner, a la the top 6, who really cares about what goes on pitch-side, then most of us will all forever be at the mercy of the quest for profit ahead of glory.

 

See you at Fulham!

What a load of s**te.

[DuncanRG]

Can you repeat that in single digits please?

[CityRanger]

You’ve not mentioned sacking a very competent and experienced manager in Claude Puel? As club historian aren’t there parallels with the dismissal of Chris Nichol many years ago?

[pluto]

Basically, we've made a mistake with a managerial appointment.

 

 

and numerous players !

[Bearsy]

Basically, we've made a mistake with a managerial appointment.

 

lol yeah. It can change v.quickly. I remember thinking at the start of the season, we've sold no-one important and even kept VVD, Hoedt & Lemina seem smart signings, Gabbiadini should be fully fit. If this new manager knows his onions, we could be in for quite a good season.

[East Kent Saint]

But basically that's what's happened , Kat tightened the purse strings which reduced player quality and likely hood of attracting a top manager . True Koeman came but he turned out not to be a top manager ie had his favourites and not often a plan B etc. The players saw that a bigger richer club was needed to stay on the gravy train and jumped ship for whoever was going to pay them the big one to last the rest of their days.

The club went from a good up and coming club to a stagnating club in slow decline who cannot pay big so can't attract top players/managers . It turns out Puel was a good bet and may have stabilized the team if he had had a second season . S o not a load of shi e

[100%Red&White]

We were never going to sustain the heights we reached as an on going theme, we'll never have the clout or status of the big 7 or 8 clubs in this country, and if we're doing well, the big boys will continue to just come in and take away our best players and managers. And, Head of Recruitment, Head Cone-Putter-Outer, Head Chef, etc. if they want them, they'll get them. It was also inevitable that we wouldn't continually get it right every time we tried to replace them, cue today's scenario. Since Cortese left, and with it the ruthless ambition (ambition with somebody else's money!), complacency has set in, thinking our much lauded 'blueprint' would see us right and those in charge are showing little sign of adapting now it's not working out.

 

But this certainly feels like another end-of-era. A couple of years ago Ralph was selling us to the states as a rapidly growing progressive club, it now sounds like things have changed and with his dumb "small club" downgrading (he could have qualified that by adding "in comparison to Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, etc.") probably knows his days here are coming to an end.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

It’s interesting how many on here are Puel supporters. I don’t remember much of an uproar when he was - eventually - sacked! As for Nicholl he had plenty of time but his dourness eventually undid him. Channon’s opinion of him as a manager made interesting reading.

As for perspective Benji I agree but this is where I see us today. Whether it’s a significant milestone in our history is debatable but I think it probably is, hence my post.

[spyinthesky]

What a load of s**te.

 

I disagree, I think this is a decent resume

 

Interested in your own perspective.

[Chez]

..But then Marcus unexpectedly passed away. That truly was the day the music died. At first it looked like, under daughter Katharina, things would continue in the same vein, but no that was, in hindsight, too much to hope for. It didn’t take long for her to realise that the singularly-driven Cortese was just a little bit too free and easy with the Liebherr family fortune and, while that was having the desired effect on the field with Pochettino and his players giving the top 6 a run for their money, her inheritance was taking a serious hit.

Interesting summary, but Marcus died just prior to the 2010/11 season, whereupon Kat became the new owner. Cortese didn't resign until January 2014. In that three and a half year period we employed Adkins, were promoted twice, before holding our own in the top flight before finishing 8th.

 

Did the music really die on August 11th?

[Sour Mash]

Interesting summary, but Marcus died just prior to the 2010/11 season, whereupon Kat became the new owner. Cortese didn't resign until January 2014. In that three and a half year period we employed Adkins, were promoted twice, before holding our own in the top flight before finishing 8th.

 

Did the music really die on August 11th?

Quite. And this is from the club's "historian".

[hypochondriac]

Quite. And this is from the club's "historian".

 

Happy to be corrected but I thought it took a while before she actually assumed control. Prior to leaving I thought she let Cortese run the club the same way he had been doing under Markus.

[Sour Mash]

Happy to be corrected but I thought it took a while before she actually assumed control. Prior to leaving I thought she let Cortese run the club the same way he had been doing under Markus.

Happy to correct you - the music didn't die on the 10th August 2010.

[Saint Billy]

What a load of s**te.

 

Unnecessary

[hypochondriac]

Happy to correct you - the music didn't die on the 10th August 2010.

 

That wasn't correcting me. Not sure what you're getting at.

[Sour Mash]

That wasn't correcting me. Not sure what you're getting at.

Not sure why you're quoting me or what your point is then.

[Winnersaint]

but this is where I see us today. Whether it’s a significant milestone in our history is debatable but I think it probably is, hence my post.

 

As you say, your view and yours alone. That said the new ownership is a significant change and we all know that change brings uncertainty. As such it's no surprise that some will feel threatened/uncertain while others will be more optimistic. In some ways on a football level it's not dissimilar to where we sit as country now, but I'll not go into that in case the 'snowflake' insults start flying about.

[Lord Duckhunter]

We didn’t lose the club in 2006, or when Rupert came in, or any other random date in history. We never had the club in the first place, we’ve never been listened to, look how long it took for Branfoots removal. Even if you take it to the extreme and have fan ownership , it still won’t be “ours”, it’ll be a select few of the fan base.

 

We are where we are , because that’s where we sit in the grand scheme of things. Around the middle of the top flight. Make good decisions, have a good season and we could be 5th, 6th, 7th make bad ones and we could be relegated. We’ve overachieved the past 4 years ( except in the cups, where forum gods Poch & Koeman certainly under achieved), it’s unreasonable to expect that to continue. It’s just not possible, people make mistakes in life, things go against you, others overachieve pushing you further down. The important thing is how you react to bad decisions, how you turn things round, thankfully we’re not fan owned because the reaction to adversity most on here are showing is ****ing pathetic.

 

I don’t buy into the narrative that we’re complacent or incompetent. Well meaning decisions, not complacent ones have turned out to be wrong. Complacent implies, lazy uncaring. I bet Reed and co worked as hard with the Boufal signing as with Mane. I doubt for one minute they thought, it’s worked before, we’ll just sign him regardless. There was time and effort spent on due diligence, I don’t believe they just assumed that just because they’d identified him ,he’d be a hit. Reeds been in the game too long not to realise that it’s not an exact science. On paper Boufal looks every bit a good a signing as Mane. On paper and after the start he made, nobody would guess that Gabbi would struggle so much this season, on paper Lemina looks a good buy, as does Wes. Who would ever have believed The Mummy would be so abject, had we sold him to Liverpool at the same time as Mane, they’d have been another meltdown. On paper (and this won’t be popular) the young manager had just a good a pedigree as Poch. Clearly the games not played on paper, and I’d imagine long term Reed will end up paying the price for these (in hindsight) poor decisions. I know I’m waffling, but the point I’m trying to make is that nothing fundamentally changed the past 12 months. We sell our best players and we try and replace them with decent prospects, we don’t go down the Fat Sam or Davey Moyes managerial route, we do what we did previously. It worked before, it isn’t working at the moment, that’s life. It’s not some form of complacency, not Reeds ego going into overdrive, not some sort of money making scam by the Chinese, it’s not anything sinister. It’s just football and in football poor decisions, however well meaning or however good on paper, cost you. They cost the Chelsea’s & Liverpool’s of this world champions league places, they cost teams of our size relegation.

 

I’m sure Reed & co are as worried about relegation as every single one of us. I’d imagine having all the facts and figures in front of him, wages & revenue wise, will keep him awake at night. If I ran the club, I’d have the manager out by now and Martin O’Neil & Roy Keane in situ. But I respect what Reeds done at this club, respect that he has a different opinion than mine ( and his counts). Any decision he makes will be made in the genuine belief it’s what is best for the club, let’s just hope it turns out to be the correct one. But to try and pin point a place in time or highlight a particular decision or policy shift where it all started to go wrong is ludicrous imo .

 

 

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[eurosaint]

You make some very good points there, your Lordship !

It is so easy these days to jump on a bandwagon, calling for heads to roll at the slightest dip in form etc..

I accept that we are in a pretty dodgy situation right now but the best way to get out of it is to stay strong, rational and calm because that way you are more likely to make better decisions !

Perhaps we do need some changes as everyone gets rusty after a while but the constant negativity by fans (particularly on message boards) really does suck the life out of you !!

[Ex Lion Tamer]

On paper (and this won’t be popular) the young manager had just a good a pedigree as Poch.

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

I agree with some of your points but not sure about this one. Poch had several seasons of overachievement with Espanyol. Koeman had some good successes alongside some failures. Pellegrino has had one season of overachievement and several sackings.

 

It was a poor appointment that needs to be rectified

[aintforever]

Interesting summary, but Marcus died just prior to the 2010/11 season, whereupon Kat became the new owner. Cortese didn't resign until January 2014. In that three and a half year period we employed Adkins, were promoted twice, before holding our own in the top flight before finishing 8th.

 

Did the music really die on August 11th?

 

Kat took her time but I think it's fair to say the death of Marcus meant that inevitably the funding would stop so I agree with Fitzhugh that it was the pivotal moment. What would have happened if Marcus and Cortese were still here, who knows. They were businessmen so may have just flogged us to the Chinese anyway.

[Fabrice29]

Haven't read it.. if someone could tell me the bit where he blames sending Gallagher on loan that would help me get to the lols quicker.

[SKD]

but the point I’m trying to make is that nothing fundamentally changed the past 12 months. We sell our best players and we try and replace them with decent prospects, we don’t go down the Fat Sam or Davey Moyes managerial route, we do what we did previously. It worked before, it isn’t working at the moment, that’s life. It’s not some form of complacency, not Reeds ego going into overdrive, not some sort of money making scam by the Chinese, it’s not anything sinister. It’s just football and in football poor decisions, however well meaning or however good on paper, cost you. They cost the Chelsea’s & Liverpool’s of this world champions league places, they cost teams of our size relegation.

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Sorry to **** on your parade but this is wrong.

 

A lot has changed in the past few years - good people (not just on the pitch) have left and not been sufficiently replaced.

 

As confirmed by Guan and Ericb, the money is not there for pay rises and assuming that that means we are taking people on at a lower rate (how can you expect to get the best, when you don't pay what they deserve).

 

Of course Les, Kat, Ralph, Gao don't want to go down, it would be stupid to suggest they do however, the clubs (owners - well at least the last ones) prerogative is to spend as little of their own money as possible and turn a profit each year. Unfortunately that business model doesn't work and combined with reducing quality of staff, will always catch up with you.

 

When people like Guan (I am not sure of his agenda, but believe he is a saints fan and is clearly very well informed) come on here and essentially call for the Chairmans head, it is rightly time to be concerned.

[Jonnyboy]

Interesting summary, but Marcus died just prior to the 2010/11 season, whereupon Kat became the new owner. Cortese didn't resign until January 2014. In that three and a half year period we employed Adkins, were promoted twice, before holding our own in the top flight before finishing 8th.

 

Did the music really die on August 11th?

 

That was the beginning of the music dying. Upward trajectory with Cortese and to some degree Kat kept it going and we all saw the benefits of the work Marcus had put it. Our success was his legacy.

[CB Fry]

We didn’t lose the club in 2006, or when Rupert came in, or any other random date in history. We never had the club in the first place, we’ve never been listened to, look how long it took for Branfoots removal. Even if you take it to the extreme and have fan ownership , it still won’t be “ours”, it’ll be a select few of the fan base.

 

We are where we are , because that’s where we sit in the grand scheme of things. Around the middle of the top flight. Make good decisions, have a good season and we could be 5th, 6th, 7th make bad ones and we could be relegated. We’ve overachieved the past 4 years ( except in the cups, where forum gods Poch & Koeman certainly under achieved), it’s unreasonable to expect that to continue. It’s just not possible, people make mistakes in life, things go against you, others overachieve pushing you further down. The important thing is how you react to bad decisions, how you turn things round, thankfully we’re not fan owned because the reaction to adversity most on here are showing is ****ing pathetic.

 

I don’t buy into the narrative that we’re complacent or incompetent. Well meaning decisions, not complacent ones have turned out to be wrong. Complacent implies, lazy uncaring. I bet Reed and co worked as hard with the Boufal signing as with Mane. I doubt for one minute they thought, it’s worked before, we’ll just sign him regardless. There was time and effort spent on due diligence, I don’t believe they just assumed that just because they’d identified him ,he’d be a hit. Reeds been in the game too long not to realise that it’s not an exact science. On paper Boufal looks every bit a good a signing as Mane. On paper and after the start he made, nobody would guess that Gabbi would struggle so much this season, on paper Lemina looks a good buy, as does Wes. Who would ever have believed The Mummy would be so abject, had we sold him to Liverpool at the same time as Mane, they’d have been another meltdown. On paper (and this won’t be popular) the young manager had just a good a pedigree as Poch. Clearly the games not played on paper, and I’d imagine long term Reed will end up paying the price for these (in hindsight) poor decisions. I know I’m waffling, but the point I’m trying to make is that nothing fundamentally changed the past 12 months. We sell our best players and we try and replace them with decent prospects, we don’t go down the Fat Sam or Davey Moyes managerial route, we do what we did previously. It worked before, it isn’t working at the moment, that’s life. It’s not some form of complacency, not Reeds ego going into overdrive, not some sort of money making scam by the Chinese, it’s not anything sinister. It’s just football and in football poor decisions, however well meaning or however good on paper, cost you. They cost the Chelsea’s & Liverpool’s of this world champions league places, they cost teams of our size relegation.

 

I’m sure Reed & co are as worried about relegation as every single one of us. I’d imagine having all the facts and figures in front of him, wages & revenue wise, will keep him awake at night. If I ran the club, I’d have the manager out by now and Martin O’Neil & Roy Keane in situ. But I respect what Reeds done at this club, respect that he has a different opinion than mine ( and his counts). Any decision he makes will be made in the genuine belief it’s what is best for the club, let’s just hope it turns out to be the correct one. But to try and pin point a place in time or highlight a particular decision or policy shift where it all started to go wrong is ludicrous imo .

 

 

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Perfect summary, brilliant stuff.

 

I'm not going to bother reading FF's opening post as I can see from the couple of quoted bits that will be the usual drivel.

[CB Fry]

Sorry to **** on your parade but this is wrong.

 

A lot has changed in the past few years - good people (not just on the pitch) have left and not been sufficiently replaced.

 

As confirmed by Guan and Ericb, the money is not there for pay rises and assuming that that means we are taking people on at a lower rate (how can you expect to get the best, when you don't pay what they deserve).

 

Of course Les, Kat, Ralph, Gao don't want to go down, it would be stupid to suggest they do however, the clubs (owners - well at least the last ones) prerogative is to spend as little of their own money as possible and turn a profit each year. Unfortunately that business model doesn't work and combined with reducing quality of staff, will always catch up with you.

 

When people like Guan (I am not sure of his agenda, but believe he is a saints fan and is clearly very well informed) come on here and essentially call for the Chairmans head, it is rightly time to be concerned.

 

Why should they spend their own money and why shouldn't we try and turn a profit each year? That's exactly what we should be doing.

[SKD]

That was the beginning of the music dying. Upward trajectory with Cortese and to some degree Kat kept it going and we all saw the benefits of the work Marcus had put it. Our success was his legacy.

 

Marcus, along with Kat originally, took a very back seat and essentially gave Cortese an open cheque book to run us how he saw fit.

 

IMO, the day the music started to die was when Kat decided she couldn't/didn't want to continue to fund us the way we were at the time being run. Which to be fair was probably the right decision. Momentum carried us for a few years as we still had a number of key members of staff in place. However, lack of funding (potentially could be called ambition) has meant that they have since moved on, replaced with 'lesser quality', and as a result we have seen a drop in performance all throughout the club at all levels.

 

We may stay up this season, we may finish top 10 next season, however unless Gao changes things (which doesn't appear likely) it will be back to the days of battling relegation and every now and again getting a top 10 finish (if we're lucky). We could also quite easily drop a division or 2 pretty quickly.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Interesting summary, but Marcus died just prior to the 2010/11 season, whereupon Kat became the new owner. Cortese didn't resign until January 2014. In that three and a half year period we employed Adkins, were promoted twice, before holding our own in the top flight before finishing 8th.

 

Did the music really die on August 11th?

 

Yes true but I think it took KL a fair time to realise the man her father had trusted was spending more money than she wanted. I think in fact it came as something of a shock. Those years NC was in sole charge were probably our most exhilerating but the day ML dies the "writing was on the wall" if you want to use another pun instead of "the day the music died". Take your point though.

[SKD]

Why should they spend their own money and why shouldn't we try and turn a profit each year? That's exactly what we should be doing.

 

Because if you want to survive / thrive in the premier league that doesn't work long term.

 

It only takes a bad window or recruitment period or 2 (as we've seen) to be completely ****ed.

 

If you don't want to spend money, don't buy a football club. It's as simple as that, like it or not.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

We didn’t lose the club in 2006, or when Rupert came in, or any other random date in history. We never had the club in the first place, we’ve never been listened to, look how long it took for Branfoots removal. Even if you take it to the extreme and have fan ownership , it still won’t be “ours”, it’ll be a select few of the fan base.

 

We are where we are , because that’s where we sit in the grand scheme of things. Around the middle of the top flight. Make good decisions, have a good season and we could be 5th, 6th, 7th make bad ones and we could be relegated. We’ve overachieved the past 4 years ( except in the cups, where forum gods Poch & Koeman certainly under achieved), it’s unreasonable to expect that to continue. It’s just not possible, people make mistakes in life, things go against you, others overachieve pushing you further down. The important thing is how you react to bad decisions, how you turn things round, thankfully we’re not fan owned because the reaction to adversity most on here are showing is ****ing pathetic.

 

I don’t buy into the narrative that we’re complacent or incompetent. Well meaning decisions, not complacent ones have turned out to be wrong. Complacent implies, lazy uncaring. I bet Reed and co worked as hard with the Boufal signing as with Mane. I doubt for one minute they thought, it’s worked before, we’ll just sign him regardless. There was time and effort spent on due diligence, I don’t believe they just assumed that just because they’d identified him ,he’d be a hit. Reeds been in the game too long not to realise that it’s not an exact science. On paper Boufal looks every bit a good a signing as Mane. On paper and after the start he made, nobody would guess that Gabbi would struggle so much this season, on paper Lemina looks a good buy, as does Wes. Who would ever have believed The Mummy would be so abject, had we sold him to Liverpool at the same time as Mane, they’d have been another meltdown. On paper (and this won’t be popular) the young manager had just a good a pedigree as Poch. Clearly the games not played on paper, and I’d imagine long term Reed will end up paying the price for these (in hindsight) poor decisions. I know I’m waffling, but the point I’m trying to make is that nothing fundamentally changed the past 12 months. We sell our best players and we try and replace them with decent prospects, we don’t go down the Fat Sam or Davey Moyes managerial route, we do what we did previously. It worked before, it isn’t working at the moment, that’s life. It’s not some form of complacency, not Reeds ego going into overdrive, not some sort of money making scam by the Chinese, it’s not anything sinister. It’s just football and in football poor decisions, however well meaning or however good on paper, cost you. They cost the Chelsea’s & Liverpool’s of this world champions league places, they cost teams of our size relegation.

 

I’m sure Reed & co are as worried about relegation as every single one of us. I’d imagine having all the facts and figures in front of him, wages & revenue wise, will keep him awake at night. If I ran the club, I’d have the manager out by now and Martin O’Neil & Roy Keane in situ. But I respect what Reeds done at this club, respect that he has a different opinion than mine ( and his counts). Any decision he makes will be made in the genuine belief it’s what is best for the club, let’s just hope it turns out to be the correct one. But to try and pin point a place in time or highlight a particular decision or policy shift where it all started to go wrong is ludicrous imo .

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Interesting post but there must be a point where Les Reed starts to keep more than one eye on his own position rather than for the greater good of the club. For instance to sack MP most of us think to be the right way forward but Reed knowing his reputation is on the line might be tempted to leave him situ a little longer? I don't know, just throwing out an opinion. I still think the death of Markus was a pivotal moment even though it took 3 plus years to manifest itself as Chez pointed out.

[Saint86]

Marcus, along with Kat originally, took a very back seat and essentially gave Cortese an open cheque book to run us how he saw fit.

 

IMO, the day the music started to die was when Kat decided she couldn't/didn't want to continue to fund us the way we were at the time being run. Which to be fair was probably the right decision. Momentum carried us for a few years as we still had a number of key members of staff in place. However, lack of funding (potentially could be called ambition) has meant that they have since moved on, replaced with 'lesser quality', and as a result we have seen a drop in performance all throughout the club at all levels.

 

We may stay up this season, we may finish top 10 next season, however unless Gao changes things (which doesn't appear likely) it will be back to the days of battling relegation and every now and again getting a top 10 finish (if we're lucky). We could also quite easily drop a division or 2 pretty quickly.

 

I honestly think Kat wanted the maximum return on her investment. So she rode Nicola all the way to top, kicked him off, and instigated a "take cash out" policy. Whereby we were on a sound, no risk, approach which banked a profit (from tv/sales/commercial), and helped her get her returns through the sale to Gao. She had no interest in putting money in on the risk we would make it to an established top 6 side.

 

The problem is, in this league, you either push on, or sit still (or do a full sunderland). And sitting still leads to relegation.

[Wurzel]

Interesting post but there must be a point where Les Reed starts to keep more than one eye on his own position rather than for the greater good of the club. For instance to sack MP most of us think to be the right way forward but Reed knowing his reputation is on the line might be tempted to leave him situ a little longer? I don't know, just throwing out an opinion. I still think the death of Markus was a pivotal moment even though it took 3 plus years to manifest itself as Chez pointed out.

 

What would damage his reputation more - getting one appointment wrong (and dealing with it in a timely manner), or getting us relegated.? If I was LR I know which one I'd be more concerned about.

[carljack]

It’s interesting how many on here are Puel supporters. I don’t remember much of an uproar when he was - eventually - sacked! As for Nicholl he had plenty of time but his dourness eventually undid him. Channon’s opinion of him as a manager made interesting reading.

As for perspective Benji I agree but this is where I see us today. Whether it’s a significant milestone in our history is debatable but I think it probably is, hence my post.

 

Its not so much that I was a Puel fan Fitz ,just that I thought he was doing the best with what he had,give me Koeman or Pochettino any day but Puel was a tactician in the French style of keep passing and do not give the ball away,I believe we would not be in the mess we are currently with him in charge,the squad has been raped repeatedly for cashflow and somebody has improved their bank balance as a result,I think we are about to learn that a Football Club like anyother going concern needs to invest on a consistent basis to move forward.I am now once again concerned for our future and lay the blame squarely at the door of K liebhar and here newfound "investor" just like Pompey I fear the Club is being used to tidy up the finances of a foreign national,I hope I am wrong but the FA,s fit and proper persons regulations do not give me hope. Saint till I die!

[benjii]

We didn’t lose the club in 2006, or when Rupert came in, or any other random date in history. We never had the club in the first place, we’ve never been listened to, look how long it took for Branfoots removal. Even if you take it to the extreme and have fan ownership , it still won’t be “ours”, it’ll be a select few of the fan base.

 

We are where we are , because that’s where we sit in the grand scheme of things. Around the middle of the top flight. Make good decisions, have a good season and we could be 5th, 6th, 7th make bad ones and we could be relegated. We’ve overachieved the past 4 years ( except in the cups, where forum gods Poch & Koeman certainly under achieved), it’s unreasonable to expect that to continue. It’s just not possible, people make mistakes in life, things go against you, others overachieve pushing you further down. The important thing is how you react to bad decisions, how you turn things round, thankfully we’re not fan owned because the reaction to adversity most on here are showing is ****ing pathetic.

 

I don’t buy into the narrative that we’re complacent or incompetent. Well meaning decisions, not complacent ones have turned out to be wrong. Complacent implies, lazy uncaring. I bet Reed and co worked as hard with the Boufal signing as with Mane. I doubt for one minute they thought, it’s worked before, we’ll just sign him regardless. There was time and effort spent on due diligence, I don’t believe they just assumed that just because they’d identified him ,he’d be a hit. Reeds been in the game too long not to realise that it’s not an exact science. On paper Boufal looks every bit a good a signing as Mane. On paper and after the start he made, nobody would guess that Gabbi would struggle so much this season, on paper Lemina looks a good buy, as does Wes. Who would ever have believed The Mummy would be so abject, had we sold him to Liverpool at the same time as Mane, they’d have been another meltdown. On paper (and this won’t be popular) the young manager had just a good a pedigree as Poch. Clearly the games not played on paper, and I’d imagine long term Reed will end up paying the price for these (in hindsight) poor decisions. I know I’m waffling, but the point I’m trying to make is that nothing fundamentally changed the past 12 months. We sell our best players and we try and replace them with decent prospects, we don’t go down the Fat Sam or Davey Moyes managerial route, we do what we did previously. It worked before, it isn’t working at the moment, that’s life. It’s not some form of complacency, not Reeds ego going into overdrive, not some sort of money making scam by the Chinese, it’s not anything sinister. It’s just football and in football poor decisions, however well meaning or however good on paper, cost you. They cost the Chelsea’s & Liverpool’s of this world champions league places, they cost teams of our size relegation.

 

I’m sure Reed & co are as worried about relegation as every single one of us. I’d imagine having all the facts and figures in front of him, wages & revenue wise, will keep him awake at night. If I ran the club, I’d have the manager out by now and Martin O’Neil & Roy Keane in situ. But I respect what Reeds done at this club, respect that he has a different opinion than mine ( and his counts). Any decision he makes will be made in the genuine belief it’s what is best for the club, let’s just hope it turns out to be the correct one. But to try and pin point a place in time or highlight a particular decision or policy shift where it all started to go wrong is ludicrous imo .

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Good post.

 

I have reservations about the new owner but the OP is too reductive. The current predicament is due to a bad managerial appointment.

 

As Bearsy says, at the start of the season we took a stand with VD and added some good signings. The only area of the squad which still looked thin was striker but if we had upgraded our manager, having sacked the previous one, we could well have had another good season.

 

The new owner may be a disaster but half a season of a bad manager is not evidence in that respect.

[benjii]

I honestly think Kat wanted the maximum return on her investment. So she rode Nicola all the way to top, kicked him off, and instigated a "take cash out" policy. Whereby we were on a sound, no risk, approach which banked a profit (from tv/sales/commercial), and helped her get her returns through the sale to Gao. She had no interest in putting money in on the risk we would make it to an established top 6 side.

 

The problem is, in this league, you either push on, or sit still (or do a full sunderland). And sitting still leads to relegation.

 

She wrote off tens of millions of debt so Christ knows what you're banging on about.

 

She clearly wanted to sell up because when no longer wanted, or could, own a football club but suggestions she was drawing money out of the business before the sale are backed up by absolutely no evidence but are countered by a bunch of verifiable public information to the contrary.

[CB Fry]

Because if you want to survive / thrive in the premier league that doesn't work long term.

 

It only takes a bad window or recruitment period or 2 (as we've seen) to be completely ****ed.

 

If you don't want to spend money, don't buy a football club. It's as simple as that, like it or not.

 

Football club owners aren't there to help you live out your Sky Sports News fantasies by spending money just because you want them to.

 

It's as simple as that, like it or not.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

We didn’t lose the club in 2006, or when Rupert came in, or any other random date in history. We never had the club in the first place, we’ve never been listened to, look how long it took for Branfoots removal. Even if you take it to the extreme and have fan ownership , it still won’t be “ours”, it’ll be a select few of the fan base.

 

We are where we are , because that’s where we sit in the grand scheme of things. Around the middle of the top flight. Make good decisions, have a good season and we could be 5th, 6th, 7th make bad ones and we could be relegated. We’ve overachieved the past 4 years ( except in the cups, where forum gods Poch & Koeman certainly under achieved), it’s unreasonable to expect that to continue. It’s just not possible, people make mistakes in life, things go against you, others overachieve pushing you further down. The important thing is how you react to bad decisions, how you turn things round, thankfully we’re not fan owned because the reaction to adversity most on here are showing is ****ing pathetic.

 

I don’t buy into the narrative that we’re complacent or incompetent. Well meaning decisions, not complacent ones have turned out to be wrong. Complacent implies, lazy uncaring. I bet Reed and co worked as hard with the Boufal signing as with Mane. I doubt for one minute they thought, it’s worked before, we’ll just sign him regardless. There was time and effort spent on due diligence, I don’t believe they just assumed that just because they’d identified him ,he’d be a hit. Reeds been in the game too long not to realise that it’s not an exact science. On paper Boufal looks every bit a good a signing as Mane. On paper and after the start he made, nobody would guess that Gabbi would struggle so much this season, on paper Lemina looks a good buy, as does Wes. Who would ever have believed The Mummy would be so abject, had we sold him to Liverpool at the same time as Mane, they’d have been another meltdown. On paper (and this won’t be popular) the young manager had just a good a pedigree as Poch. Clearly the games not played on paper, and I’d imagine long term Reed will end up paying the price for these (in hindsight) poor decisions. I know I’m waffling, but the point I’m trying to make is that nothing fundamentally changed the past 12 months. We sell our best players and we try and replace them with decent prospects, we don’t go down the Fat Sam or Davey Moyes managerial route, we do what we did previously. It worked before, it isn’t working at the moment, that’s life. It’s not some form of complacency, not Reeds ego going into overdrive, not some sort of money making scam by the Chinese, it’s not anything sinister. It’s just football and in football poor decisions, however well meaning or however good on paper, cost you. They cost the Chelsea’s & Liverpool’s of this world champions league places, they cost teams of our size relegation.

 

I’m sure Reed & co are as worried about relegation as every single one of us. I’d imagine having all the facts and figures in front of him, wages & revenue wise, will keep him awake at night. If I ran the club, I’d have the manager out by now and Martin O’Neil & Roy Keane in situ. But I respect what Reeds done at this club, respect that he has a different opinion than mine ( and his counts). Any decision he makes will be made in the genuine belief it’s what is best for the club, let’s just hope it turns out to be the correct one. But to try and pin point a place in time or highlight a particular decision or policy shift where it all started to go wrong is ludicrous imo .

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Fantastic appraisal.

[Red]

Good post.

 

I have reservations about the new owner but the OP is too reductive. The current predicament is due to a bad managerial appointment.

 

As Bearsy says, at the start of the season we took a stand with VD and added some good signings. The only area of the squad which still looked thin was striker but if we had upgraded our manager, having sacked the previous one, we could well have had another good season.

 

The new owner may be a disaster but half a season of a bad manager is not evidence in that respect.

 

Then why not rectify that now - if not much earlier? As stated elsewhere, mistakes happen, but true leadership is to acknowledge them and correct immediately. Excuse a "Ralphism" - failure to act, is acting to fail. There is nothing we can do to change the past - however much we might want to. I just hope and pray, we act decisively to give us the maximum chance of avoiding the drop. Others around us have done so.

[bazza]

Good read that opening post.

[davefoggy]

**** manager = **** season = relegation. Simple

[S-Clarke]

We didn’t lose the club in 2006, or when Rupert came in, or any other random date in history. We never had the club in the first place, we’ve never been listened to, look how long it took for Branfoots removal. Even if you take it to the extreme and have fan ownership , it still won’t be “ours”, it’ll be a select few of the fan base.

 

We are where we are , because that’s where we sit in the grand scheme of things. Around the middle of the top flight. Make good decisions, have a good season and we could be 5th, 6th, 7th make bad ones and we could be relegated. We’ve overachieved the past 4 years ( except in the cups, where forum gods Poch & Koeman certainly under achieved), it’s unreasonable to expect that to continue. It’s just not possible, people make mistakes in life, things go against you, others overachieve pushing you further down. The important thing is how you react to bad decisions, how you turn things round, thankfully we’re not fan owned because the reaction to adversity most on here are showing is ****ing pathetic.

 

I don’t buy into the narrative that we’re complacent or incompetent. Well meaning decisions, not complacent ones have turned out to be wrong. Complacent implies, lazy uncaring. I bet Reed and co worked as hard with the Boufal signing as with Mane. I doubt for one minute they thought, it’s worked before, we’ll just sign him regardless. There was time and effort spent on due diligence, I don’t believe they just assumed that just because they’d identified him ,he’d be a hit. Reeds been in the game too long not to realise that it’s not an exact science. On paper Boufal looks every bit a good a signing as Mane. On paper and after the start he made, nobody would guess that Gabbi would struggle so much this season, on paper Lemina looks a good buy, as does Wes. Who would ever have believed The Mummy would be so abject, had we sold him to Liverpool at the same time as Mane, they’d have been another meltdown. On paper (and this won’t be popular) the young manager had just a good a pedigree as Poch. Clearly the games not played on paper, and I’d imagine long term Reed will end up paying the price for these (in hindsight) poor decisions. I know I’m waffling, but the point I’m trying to make is that nothing fundamentally changed the past 12 months. We sell our best players and we try and replace them with decent prospects, we don’t go down the Fat Sam or Davey Moyes managerial route, we do what we did previously. It worked before, it isn’t working at the moment, that’s life. It’s not some form of complacency, not Reeds ego going into overdrive, not some sort of money making scam by the Chinese, it’s not anything sinister. It’s just football and in football poor decisions, however well meaning or however good on paper, cost you. They cost the Chelsea’s & Liverpool’s of this world champions league places, they cost teams of our size relegation.

 

I’m sure Reed & co are as worried about relegation as every single one of us. I’d imagine having all the facts and figures in front of him, wages & revenue wise, will keep him awake at night. If I ran the club, I’d have the manager out by now and Martin O’Neil & Roy Keane in situ. But I respect what Reeds done at this club, respect that he has a different opinion than mine ( and his counts). Any decision he makes will be made in the genuine belief it’s what is best for the club, let’s just hope it turns out to be the correct one. But to try and pin point a place in time or highlight a particular decision or policy shift where it all started to go wrong is ludicrous imo .

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Amazingly good post.

[shurlock]

We didn’t lose the club in 2006, or when Rupert came in, or any other random date in history. We never had the club in the first place, we’ve never been listened to, look how long it took for Branfoots removal. Even if you take it to the extreme and have fan ownership , it still won’t be “ours”, it’ll be a select few of the fan base.

 

We are where we are , because that’s where we sit in the grand scheme of things. Around the middle of the top flight. Make good decisions, have a good season and we could be 5th, 6th, 7th make bad ones and we could be relegated. We’ve overachieved the past 4 years ( except in the cups, where forum gods Poch & Koeman certainly under achieved), it’s unreasonable to expect that to continue. It’s just not possible, people make mistakes in life, things go against you, others overachieve pushing you further down. The important thing is how you react to bad decisions, how you turn things round, thankfully we’re not fan owned because the reaction to adversity most on here are showing is ****ing pathetic.

 

I don’t buy into the narrative that we’re complacent or incompetent. Well meaning decisions, not complacent ones have turned out to be wrong. Complacent implies, lazy uncaring. I bet Reed and co worked as hard with the Boufal signing as with Mane. I doubt for one minute they thought, it’s worked before, we’ll just sign him regardless. There was time and effort spent on due diligence, I don’t believe they just assumed that just because they’d identified him ,he’d be a hit. Reeds been in the game too long not to realise that it’s not an exact science. On paper Boufal looks every bit a good a signing as Mane. On paper and after the start he made, nobody would guess that Gabbi would struggle so much this season, on paper Lemina looks a good buy, as does Wes. Who would ever have believed The Mummy would be so abject, had we sold him to Liverpool at the same time as Mane, they’d have been another meltdown. On paper (and this won’t be popular) the young manager had just a good a pedigree as Poch. Clearly the games not played on paper, and I’d imagine long term Reed will end up paying the price for these (in hindsight) poor decisions. I know I’m waffling, but the point I’m trying to make is that nothing fundamentally changed the past 12 months. We sell our best players and we try and replace them with decent prospects, we don’t go down the Fat Sam or Davey Moyes managerial route, we do what we did previously. It worked before, it isn’t working at the moment, that’s life. It’s not some form of complacency, not Reeds ego going into overdrive, not some sort of money making scam by the Chinese, it’s not anything sinister. It’s just football and in football poor decisions, however well meaning or however good on paper, cost you. They cost the Chelsea’s & Liverpool’s of this world champions league places, they cost teams of our size relegation.

 

I’m sure Reed & co are as worried about relegation as every single one of us. I’d imagine having all the facts and figures in front of him, wages & revenue wise, will keep him awake at night. If I ran the club, I’d have the manager out by now and Martin O’Neil & Roy Keane in situ. But I respect what Reeds done at this club, respect that he has a different opinion than mine ( and his counts). Any decision he makes will be made in the genuine belief it’s what is best for the club, let’s just hope it turns out to be the correct one. But to try and pin point a place in time or highlight a particular decision or policy shift where it all started to go wrong is ludicrous imo .

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

What you overlook is that this strategy was always risky -just because it was working didn't obviate its basic flaws and weaknesses.

 

Not having balance and variation in your transfer policy, focusing predominantly on prospects with an eye, consciously or unconsciously, on their potential resale value at the expense of experienced and proven players, was always questionable. Perhaps a few more Steve Davis type signings, players who were never going to be a long-term investment but could slot in, provide leadership and have an immediate impact wouldn't have gone amiss.

 

Likewise having to rely entirely on transfer proceeds to finance investment in the squad -by and large just to stand still and replace your best players- was never going to leave much margin for error if signings didn't pan out -and as you acknowledge many signings do not pan out. No sustainable business is run without having buffers or slack to deal with such contingencies.

 

All this was pointed out at the time to much derision on here, so this is not glib hindsight; yet it appears the club did little to mitigate these risks. On one level, today's predicament is not altogether surprising. Hopefully, going forward, we have the humility to revisit some of the assumptions in our transfer policy to complement what is good about it.

 

By the way, complacent doesn't mean lazy uncaring - that's a strawman as nobody is claiming that Reed and co. aren't trying their best.

Edited 5 January, 2018 by shurlock

[SKD]

Football club owners aren't there to help you live out your Sky Sports News fantasies by spending money just because you want them to.

 

It's as simple as that, like it or not.

 

At what point did I suggest spending money for the sake of it or just buying players to appease fans (which the Walcott signing looks like if I’m honest).

 

All I’m saying, unless you have the commercial income of Man Utd, you will not survive or be successful long term in the Permier league, by having an owner who’s first thought is to turn a profit.

 

It’s not all about buying players. In our model you need to have the best player recuirtment around, in order to do this you need to spend money.

 

If it was so easy to run a club without having to spend millions, why is it the large majority of clubs are owned by billionaires.

 

But if you get some sort of excitement out of seeing the P&L’s at the end of each month, despite the clear issues on the field, then fair play.

[Turkish]

When Marcus Liebherr finally purchased the ashes of Southampton FC in July 2009 there was a collective sigh of relief all around. It had been a close thing with the Matthew Le Tissier-backed Pinnacle consortium nearly turning us into the laughing stock that was, shortly afterwards, the fate instead of our fishy neighbours down the M27. Phew!

 

Although I was as delighted as the next fan the club had a future, I remember getting stick at the time for pointing out that although we had now been “rescued” by a bone fide and wealthy new owner, as fans we now had to accept our destiny would forever be out of our hands, or in other words, the new owner could do whatever he or she wanted without giving the supporters a second thought. Even Rupert Lowe had to consider the shareholders first and foremost, but now we were at the mercy of one man – Mr Marcus Liebherr.

 

Happily for us our new saviour appeared to be a man of integrity who, while undoubtedly chuffed to bits that he had acquired a bargain for around £15m, – a sum that looks a pittance today – he did actually look like he cared about the footballing side of things too. Who can forget him and his camera at Wembley? Aided by Nicola Cortese who seemed to have liberal access to the Liebherr cheque book, it didn’t take long before we were proudly back in the big time. We are Southampton, we come from League One was belted out with gusto on many a Premier League ground.

 

Saints fans had not had it so good since the early 80s, the football was widely praised, the Academy was blossoming and, although Cortese upset many with his ruthlessness and disdain for our tradition, we could all live with it while results were positive and the football flowed. But then Marcus unexpectedly passed away. That truly was the day the music died.

 

At first it looked like, under daughter Katharina, things would continue in the same vein, but no that was, in hindsight, too much to hope for. It didn’t take long for her to realise that the singularly-driven Cortese was just a little bit too free and easy with the Liebherr family fortune and, while that was having the desired effect on the field with Pochettino and his players giving the top 6 a run for their money, her inheritance was taking a serious hit.

Not unreasonably she grabbed the reins, seized back control. Cortese left abruptly and acrimoniously, a signal to the ambitious manager and his leading players that the dream of Champions League football with Southampton at least was over. Cue Exodus. One by one they left, departing not a sinking ship exactly but one which had been full steam ahead one minute, only for a new captain to pull on the brakes and alter course for shallower waters. But there was yet hope, Ronald Koeman looked to be an inspired replacement and it was full steam ahead for a while, helped by the fact there were still many players left over from the Marcus/Nicola years who could still do a job ie the likes of Wanyama, Fonte, Rodrigues, Clyne, Schneiderlin and Davis.

But the driving ambition had gone along with access to serious cash. Les Reed (once Cortese’s underling but in the vacuum now given more power) and Koeman did not see eye to eye, with the former thinking he should have more involvement in team matters and the proud but haughty Dutchman wanting to do things his way. More players from the glory years left and, somewhere along the way, Katharina decided she too wanted out. Cash rich, trustworthy and honourable owners do not grow on trees as Ms Liebherr was soon to find out and after several false dawns she eventually ended up selling 80% to a Chinese business man, Mr Gao who had a questionable enough background for the deal to pass before relevant authorities before it was finally allowed. No smoke without fire thought the vast majority of worried Sotonians.

 

Ms Liebherr was at pains to point out she would have only sold to people who would take Southampton onwards and upwards, but despite her well-meaning intentions she had little choice. She was well within her rights of course, it was her club to do as she pleased and as I point out in the first paragraph the fans simply had to accept it.

 

In the two years it took to finally sell Southampton, Les Reed, now in virtual sole control of footballing matters, made two poor-looking managerial choices, although the more Mauricio Pellegrino has struggled the higher his predecessor Claude Puel’s reputation has soared. Whatever, the truth remains under two mediocre managers, good players have left to be replaced by inferior ones. Under those circumstances decline has been inevitable. The famed and much-vaunted Academy too seems to have dried up. Talk of Champions League football and five-year plans have melted away with the club content to rely on vacuous slogans like “we march on” to paper over the widening cracks and unfulfilled expectations that had unrealistically been encouraged to rise unchecked.

 

To be frank it was a miracle that the club managed to finish in the top 8, four seasons on the trot. That was some achievement, but even as last season drew to an end the writing had started to appear on the wall in a train of thought that we had peaked. That’s Ok Saints fans are not stupid, we had had several years of punching above our weight, but we would settle for mid-table now with perhaps a serious pot at a Cup while we regrouped.

 

But now, as 2018 gets underway, the club seem unable to stop the decline and as fans we can only watch the likely forthcoming Armageddon with horror, unable to have any direct influence whatsoever. The Chairman’s interview this week has been a car crash in itself, with his continual references to us suddenly being “a small club” who are where we are because our best player demanded – and got - a transfer. I’ve met Mr Krueger, he comes across a nice, decent man, but I’ve got to not mince my words here, he is clueless when it comes to communicating with the fan base. He seriously thinks the fans would be placated over the decline on the pitch with the knowledge our reputation in China is on the up. His corporate gobbledegook baffles, infuriates and insults the fans in equal measures. We are desperate not only for some sure-footed leadership but someone who can at least communicate and let us down gently in our own language.

 

It’s a sign of the times in modern-day football that Southampton fans and for that matter fans in general are now hostages to their own fate, mass protests will cut little ice anymore, non-attendance won’t ruffle any feathers in Peking or Shanghai, the truth is we lost our football club in July 2006 and our control or influence ain’t never coming back. The only consolation I can think of is many other clubs are in similar situations. Unless you are fortunate to have a rich owner, a la the top 6, who really cares about what goes on pitch-side, then most of us will all forever be at the mercy of the quest for profit ahead of glory.

 

See you at Fulham!

 

You wanted to suck Ralph off here. Presumably this was around the time

They agreed to stock your book in the club shops?

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?50102-A-meeting-with-Ralph-Krueger

[shurlock]

You wanted to suck Ralph off here. Presumably this was around the time

They agreed to stock your book in the club shops?

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?50102-A-meeting-with-Ralph-Krueger

 

 

I really can see why KL appointed him, half an hour in his company was very motivating...We showed him our books and he seemed to take genuine interest in them and said the club had failed to fully capitalise on our history or "soul" as he put it, in the past...He cuts an impressive figure but also showed a nice humility and keenness to get to the heart of what makes the city click. I feel the club is in excellent hands and from what I witnessed today I would say the KL and he are here for the long term.

 

 

At least we got our stripes back.

[saint-crinny]

You wanted to suck Ralph off here. Presumably this was around the time

They agreed to stock your book in the club shops?

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?50102-A-meeting-with-Ralph-Krueger

 

I guess that pretty much wraps up this thread then.