Where has it all gone wrong?

[ally_uk]

1) Manager out of depth

2) Players realising that the manager is clueless therefore are playing rubbish

To hopefully get him out the door.

3) Players not up to this level i.e Redmond. Constantly being picked when he

Offers nothing.

4) Goal keeper should be sold / dropped....

5) Wrong formations not playing to strengths.

 

Thoughts? I think it's a combination of manager and players being average / not playing for him...

[Badger]

Might be a few interesting views in here:

 

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?58924-Where-did-it-start-going-wrong#.WhCeXlVl-Uk

 

In truth can't disagree with any of the points you've raised.

[Heisenberg]

This hasn't happened overnight. Its been building for couple of years now.

 

I started a thread with almost identical title almost a year ago as it was clear where we heading.

 

It started going wrong when Cortese left IMHO

 

Momentum carried us for couple of seasons but all the signs where there.

 

Ive taken stick for my views on Reed and Kat.... Just glad peoples heads are starting to exit the sand.

 

Its not to late to reverse this decline, but the owners need to act sooner rather than later

[adrian lord]

 

Its not to late to reverse this decline, but the owners need to act sooner rather than later

 

I hope you are correct, but I fear that our trajectory carries the momentum of a supertanker.

[ally_uk]

So what would be the resolution? Bringing in another manager? I'm starting to think the manager is being held back and instructed to field specific players by Reed...

 

Mass squad clearout, New manager and back room staff including a new director of football?

 

The constant selling of talent and replacing inadequately has come full circle and bitten us on the backside.

 

Take the start of this season it was blindly obvious we lacked the ability to finish. So instead of signing up some attacking talent we sell Jay Rod. Our whole approach to transfers has been amateur and arrogant. Staff new to go to specsavers our fans recognise the flaws and rubbish footy being served up.

 

If we play rubbish against Everton or take a early battering time for fans to down tools and walk out.....

[Dalek2003]

This hasn't happened overnight. Its been building for couple of years now.

 

I started a thread with almost identical title almost a year ago as it was clear where we heading.

 

It started going wrong when Cortese left IMHO

 

Momentum carried us for couple of seasons but all the signs where there.

 

Ive taken stick for my views on Reed and Kat.... Just glad peoples heads are starting to exit the sand.

 

Its not to late to reverse this decline, but the owners need to act sooner rather than later

 

I was a lone voice who was warning of complacency. I was lambasted, vilified and ridiculed. But, I stuck to my principles in the same way that I warned about the appointment of Sturrock over Hoddle in 2004.

I am not afraid of bringing to the forum unpopular opinions, when I believe they need to be said.

[Killers Knee]

Gao should get Cortese back and give him full reign.

 

Damn site cheaper than a crap player, but the effect he had was huge. We need someone with the vision, the plan and skill to deliver whilst at the same time being able to identify and attract the needed talent.

 

We have simply never been a close knit fighting unit since he left.

[Portugalsaint]

The constant selling of talent and replacing inadequately has come full circle and bitten us on the backside.

 

Take the start of this season it was blindly obvious we lacked the ability to finish. So instead of signing up some attacking talent we sell Jay Rod. Our whole approach to transfers has been amateur and arrogant. Staff new to go to specsavers our fans recognise the flaws and rubbish footy being served up

 

This.

 

I was at the Burnley game. I can remember watching Saints play Boro’ back in the day on Boxing Day was it 2003? The season of relegation and too be honest it was like dejavue.

[Noodles34]

The constant selling of talent and replacing inadequately has come full circle and bitten us on the backside.

 

Take the start of this season it was blindly obvious we lacked the ability to finish. So instead of signing up some attacking talent we sell Jay Rod. Our whole approach to transfers has been amateur and arrogant. Staff new to go to specsavers our fans recognise the flaws and rubbish footy being served up

 

This.

 

I was at the Burnley game. I can remember watching Saints play Boro’ back in the day on Boxing Day was it 2003? The season of relegation and too be honest it was like dejavue.

 

Probably not considering we got to the cup final that year. Maybe a couple of years later.

[ally_uk]

Maybe relegation is the turning point we need? What a reality check that would be. However may present us with a opportunity to clear out the overpriced can't be bothered to wear the shirt types. As a club we revert back to actually bedding in youth players from our academy, recruiting coaches and staff who believe in this philosophy and have the ability to motivate and develop.

 

I'm fed up watching the likes of Redmond, Tadic. Week after week so nothing..... Drop half this team and play the kids!

[Ultimatt]

Just a bunch of **** poor transfer decisions since Koeman left. Love him or hate him, Koeman didn't give two ****s about the academy and only wanted to buy players that could have an immediate impact. He got his way and we got some quality like-for-like replacements for Lambert/Lallana/JRod with Pelle/Mane/Tadic in to complement our strong core. Then we sold our 2 best attackers and only physical CM and replaced them with 3 lightweight

2014/15 team: Forster, Clyne, Fonte, Alderweireld, Bertrand, Wanyama, Schneiderlin, Davis, Tadic, Pelle, Mane

2016/17 team: Forster, Cedric, Yoshida, VVD, Bertrand, Romeu, JWP, Davis, Tadic, Austin, Redmond

 

The board stopped buying players to win and started buying players with potential high resale value. The only reason Redmond was bought and plays so much is because he's young and English. The only reason Forster is still here, let alone got a f'ing contract extension is because he's English.

We bought Hojbjerg/Gabbiadini/Lemina/Hoedt not because they were good players in form but because they were at a decent club that no longer wanted/needed them. If they came good then $$$ resale value.

 

Gabbi turns 26 in a week and only has a TOTAL of 50 career league goals. He'd only started 7 matches in the 6 months before we bought him. The man he's replaced, Pelle, scored 50 in 57 games the 2 years before we bought him.

Hojbjerg was a bench player at Schalke with just 17 starts the season before we bought him.

Lemina was a bench player at Juventus with only 8 starts the season before we bought him.

McCarthy was a bench player at Palace with only 7 starts the season before we bought him.

Redmond was a bench player at relegated Norwich with only 24 starts the season before we bought him.

Hoedt was a bench player at Lazio with only 21 starts the season before we bought him.

 

We've filled our team with a bunch of other clubs rejects. Is it any surprise that so far only 1 of them (Lemina) looks good? What the hell did the board expect. When you think about the spending power the premier league has, we could easily outbid almost every other European team, and yet instead of buying quality in-form players we buy leftovers.

 

The reality is that there's no way we'll compete with other Premier League teams who are buying ready-made players when we're only buying players with potential. It reeks of arrogance.

[Dalek2003]

Just a bunch of **** poor transfer decisions since Koeman left. Love him or hate him, Koeman didn't give two ****s about the academy and only wanted to buy players that could have an immediate impact. He got his way and we got some quality like-for-like replacements for Lambert/Lallana/JRod with Pelle/Mane/Tadic in to complement our strong core. Then we sold our 2 best attackers and only physical CM and replaced them with 3 lightweight

2014/15 team: Forster, Clyne, Fonte, Alderweireld, Bertrand, Wanyama, Schneiderlin, Davis, Tadic, Pelle, Mane

2016/17 team: Forster, Cedric, Yoshida, VVD, Bertrand, Romeu, JWP, Davis, Tadic, Austin, Redmond

 

The board stopped buying players to win and started buying players with potential high resale value. The only reason Redmond was bought and plays so much is because he's young and English. The only reason Forster is still here, let alone got a f'ing contract extension is because he's English.

We bought Hojbjerg/Gabbiadini/Lemina/Hoedt not because they were good players in form but because they were at a decent club that no longer wanted/needed them. If they came good then $$$ resale value.

 

Gabbi turns 26 in a week and only has a TOTAL of 50 career league goals. He'd only started 7 matches in the 6 months before we bought him. The man he's replaced, Pelle, scored 50 in 57 games the 2 years before we bought him.

Hojbjerg was a bench player at Schalke with just 17 starts the season before we bought him.

Lemina was a bench player at Juventus with only 8 starts the season before we bought him.

McCarthy was a bench player at Palace with only 7 starts the season before we bought him.

Redmond was a bench player at relegated Norwich with only 24 starts the season before we bought him.

Hoedt was a bench player at Lazio with only 21 starts the season before we bought him.

 

We've filled our team with a bunch of other clubs rejects. Is it any surprise that so far only 1 of them (Lemina) looks good? What the hell did the board expect. When you think about the spending power the premier league has, we could easily outbid almost every other European team, and yet instead of buying quality in-form players we buy leftovers.

 

The reality is that there's no way we'll compete with other Premier League teams who are buying ready-made players when we're only buying players with potential. It reeks of arrogance.

 

Post of the week !

[jamesfp1]

Should have gone for it after finishing 6th and given koeman a bit of money. Momentum would have continued.

[shurlock]

Should have gone for it after finishing 6th and given koeman a bit of money. Momentum would have continued.

 

We believed our own hype.

 

Perhaps we couldn't keep Koeman; but we certainly believe that no player or manager is irreplaceable thanks to our savviness and ability to find unappreciated gems in the transfer market.

 

Of course, the reality is that misses are as common as hits in the transfer market, even for clubs with the best recruitment records and players with far more pedigree than the ones we typically target and recruit.

 

It doesn't take many misses for things fall out of sync and the squad to experience a dilution in quality, especially when you're almost entirely reliant on transfer proceeds for (re)investment.

Edited 19 November, 2017 by shurlock

[SKD]

Just a bunch of **** poor transfer decisions since Koeman left. Love him or hate him, Koeman didn't give two ****s about the academy and only wanted to buy players that could have an immediate impact. He got his way and we got some quality like-for-like replacements for Lambert/Lallana/JRod with Pelle/Mane/Tadic in to complement our strong core. Then we sold our 2 best attackers and only physical CM and replaced them with 3 lightweight

2014/15 team: Forster, Clyne, Fonte, Alderweireld, Bertrand, Wanyama, Schneiderlin, Davis, Tadic, Pelle, Mane

2016/17 team: Forster, Cedric, Yoshida, VVD, Bertrand, Romeu, JWP, Davis, Tadic, Austin, Redmond

 

The board stopped buying players to win and started buying players with potential high resale value. The only reason Redmond was bought and plays so much is because he's young and English. The only reason Forster is still here, let alone got a f'ing contract extension is because he's English.

We bought Hojbjerg/Gabbiadini/Lemina/Hoedt not because they were good players in form but because they were at a decent club that no longer wanted/needed them. If they came good then $$$ resale value.

 

Gabbi turns 26 in a week and only has a TOTAL of 50 career league goals. He'd only started 7 matches in the 6 months before we bought him. The man he's replaced, Pelle, scored 50 in 57 games the 2 years before we bought him.

Hojbjerg was a bench player at Schalke with just 17 starts the season before we bought him.

Lemina was a bench player at Juventus with only 8 starts the season before we bought him.

McCarthy was a bench player at Palace with only 7 starts the season before we bought him.

Redmond was a bench player at relegated Norwich with only 24 starts the season before we bought him.

Hoedt was a bench player at Lazio with only 21 starts the season before we bought him.

 

We've filled our team with a bunch of other clubs rejects. Is it any surprise that so far only 1 of them (Lemina) looks good? What the hell did the board expect. When you think about the spending power the premier league has, we could easily outbid almost every other European team, and yet instead of buying quality in-form players we buy leftovers.

 

The reality is that there's no way we'll compete with other Premier League teams who are buying ready-made players when we're only buying players with potential. It reeks of arrogance.

 

Spot on.

 

The tide changed when Les was given full control of footballing matters, when Mitchell left and when Kat decided she couldn’t / didn’t want to invest any more money in the club.

[OldNick]

Just a bunch of **** poor transfer decisions since Koeman left. Love him or hate him, Koeman didn't give two ****s about the academy and only wanted to buy players that could have an immediate impact. He got his way and we got some quality like-for-like replacements for Lambert/Lallana/JRod with Pelle/Mane/Tadic in to complement our strong core. Then we sold our 2 best attackers and only physical CM and replaced them with 3 lightweight

2014/15 team: Forster, Clyne, Fonte, Alderweireld, Bertrand, Wanyama, Schneiderlin, Davis, Tadic, Pelle, Mane

2016/17 team: Forster, Cedric, Yoshida, VVD, Bertrand, Romeu, JWP, Davis, Tadic, Austin, Redmond

 

The board stopped buying players to win and started buying players with potential high resale value. The only reason Redmond was bought and plays so much is because he's young and English. The only reason Forster is still here, let alone got a f'ing contract extension is because he's English.

We bought Hojbjerg/Gabbiadini/Lemina/Hoedt not because they were good players in form but because they were at a decent club that no longer wanted/needed them. If they came good then $$$ resale value.

 

Gabbi turns 26 in a week and only has a TOTAL of 50 career league goals. He'd only started 7 matches in the 6 months before we bought him. The man he's replaced, Pelle, scored 50 in 57 games the 2 years before we bought him.

Hojbjerg was a bench player at Schalke with just 17 starts the season before we bought him.

Lemina was a bench player at Juventus with only 8 starts the season before we bought him.

McCarthy was a bench player at Palace with only 7 starts the season before we bought him.

Redmond was a bench player at relegated Norwich with only 24 starts the season before we bought him.

Hoedt was a bench player at Lazio with only 21 starts the season before we bought him.

 

We've filled our team with a bunch of other clubs rejects. Is it any surprise that so far only 1 of them (Lemina) looks good? What the hell did the board expect. When you think about the spending power the premier league has, we could easily outbid almost every other European team, and yet instead of buying quality in-form players we buy leftovers.

 

The reality is that there's no way we'll compete with other Premier League teams who are buying ready-made players when we're only buying players with potential. It reeks of arrogance.

does Reed get a commission on profits of player sales. I know at onetime managers used to

[Saint-Fred]

Has it really gone wrong?

 

We had a few good managers who had the team playing at or near their potential on a regular basis. Now we have had two managers who couldn't get the players playing Anything other than boring sideways football.

Not a lot else has changed really... We still buy players who are technically good but now can't seem to get them to combine and play with any pace or direction.

[Restark19]

Not signing Jedinak

[saint1977]

Just a bunch of **** poor transfer decisions since Koeman left. Love him or hate him, Koeman didn't give two ****s about the academy and only wanted to buy players that could have an immediate impact. He got his way and we got some quality like-for-like replacements for Lambert/Lallana/JRod with Pelle/Mane/Tadic in to complement our strong core. Then we sold our 2 best attackers and only physical CM and replaced them with 3 lightweight

2014/15 team: Forster, Clyne, Fonte, Alderweireld, Bertrand, Wanyama, Schneiderlin, Davis, Tadic, Pelle, Mane

2016/17 team: Forster, Cedric, Yoshida, VVD, Bertrand, Romeu, JWP, Davis, Tadic, Austin, Redmond

 

The board stopped buying players to win and started buying players with potential high resale value. The only reason Redmond was bought and plays so much is because he's young and English. The only reason Forster is still here, let alone got a f'ing contract extension is because he's English.

We bought Hojbjerg/Gabbiadini/Lemina/Hoedt not because they were good players in form but because they were at a decent club that no longer wanted/needed them. If they came good then $$$ resale value.

 

Gabbi turns 26 in a week and only has a TOTAL of 50 career league goals. He'd only started 7 matches in the 6 months before we bought him. The man he's replaced, Pelle, scored 50 in 57 games the 2 years before we bought him.

Hojbjerg was a bench player at Schalke with just 17 starts the season before we bought him.

Lemina was a bench player at Juventus with only 8 starts the season before we bought him.

McCarthy was a bench player at Palace with only 7 starts the season before we bought him.

Redmond was a bench player at relegated Norwich with only 24 starts the season before we bought him.

Hoedt was a bench player at Lazio with only 21 starts the season before we bought him.

 

We've filled our team with a bunch of other clubs rejects. Is it any surprise that so far only 1 of them (Lemina) looks good? What the hell did the board expect. When you think about the spending power the premier league has, we could easily outbid almost every other European team, and yet instead of buying quality in-form players we buy leftovers.

 

The reality is that there's no way we'll compete with other Premier League teams who are buying ready-made players when we're only buying players with potential. It reeks of arrogance.

 

Quality post. We had a few years of actually doing things properly, just like Lawrie first time arounnd but now back to bad old days of complacancy e.g. Askham/Reed with no drive to improve.

[SW5 SAINT]

It's what happens with constant changes of managers and direction. I for one never got this mantra that whosoever was employed, they just slotted in and 'the Southampton way' prevailed.

 

At least if we get relegated we will go back to being primarily a football team again, rather than a company whose core business is buying and selling players for profit.

[adrian lord]

^ yes, and that business model relies on the football team overachieving and showcasing the players and how they have come on immensely. It has fallen flat on its face.

[qwertyell]

What is most depressing is that we've sold so much talent, with the promise that all the funds will be reinvested, and THIS is the squad we've ended up with after peeing all that money up the wall.

 

Sent from my F3311 using Tapatalk

[derry]

I would be interested to know whether the emphasis in training is keeping possession without goal targets or attacking and defending with the emphasis on getting the ball into the goal. I suspect the former. I think Puel and Pellegrino have neutered the team with their obsession with possession and lost sight of the need to score goals because of the fear of losing. We aren't scoring, but still losing, so we need to change the way we are playing.

 

Maybe a week of a few full sized games with no emphasis on possession, but playing high tempo, getting the ball and numbers forward quickly. Definitely playing no player on their weak side. Then seeing whether that has any effect on the way the team plays in the next competitive game without the need to only keep possession.

 

600 passes a game mostly in our own half, sideways and backwards, except Forster who hits ball after ball aimlessly up field, has destroyed our ability to play early balls as there are no players making runs, just waiting to pass the ball around. Only the lone striker makes any runs mostly unsupported and deprived of support, with ten opponents goal side because of the slow passing.

[shurlock]

I would be interested to know whether the emphasis in training is keeping possession without goal targets or attacking and defending with the emphasis on getting the ball into the goal. I suspect the former. I think Puel and Pellegrino have neutered the team with their obsession with possession and lost sight of the need to score goals because of the fear of losing. We aren't scoring, but still losing, so we need to change the way we are playing.

 

Maybe a week of a few full sized games with no emphasis on possession, but playing high tempo, getting the ball and numbers forward quickly. Definitely playing no player on their weak side. Then seeing whether that has any effect on the way the team plays in the next competitive game without the need to only keep possession.

 

600 passes a game mostly in our own half, sideways and backwards, except Forster who hits ball after ball aimlessly up field, has destroyed our ability to play early balls as there are no players making runs, just waiting to pass the ball around. Only the lone striker makes any runs mostly unsupported and deprived of support, with ten opponents goal side because of the slow passing.

 

#GIITM

[derry]

#GIITM

 

Now even that would be an improvement on the meaningless dross we are serving up. Unless we change the way we are playing a slide down the table looms. Unfortunately it isn't far to the bottom.

[Heisenberg]

What is most depressing is that we've sold so much talent, with the promise that all the funds will be reinvested, and THIS is the squad we've ended up with after peeing all that money up the wall.

 

Sent from my F3311 using Tapatalk

 

Yep!! I used to get very annoyed as "reported" transfer fees had us sitting on a nice profit and i wanted to see some of that put back into the club.

 

Then the official finances were released and i saw that we had actually spent MORE than we've received.

 

My annoyance towards Kat then turned to absolute dismay towards loser Les.

 

The amounts of money wasted on awful and average players/managers is criminal

 

To think we have one of the most expensively assembled squads in Europe.... Absolutely mental

[Saint86]

There was already a thread covering this. It all went wrong when cortese was forced out, possibly when ML died and we became little more than a cash cow.

[whelk]

There was already a thread covering this. It all went wrong when cortese was forced out, possibly when ML died and we became little more than a cash cow.

 

Fck me I’m noticing a theme. Ahh the good old days.

[CB Fry]

There was already a thread covering this. It all went wrong when cortese was forced out, possibly when ML died and we became little more than a cash cow.

Markus died when we were still in League One you absolute div.

 

And we went from strength to strength after Cortese ran for the hills. 7th and then 6th then a cup final plus European qualification twice - a golden age for the club that Italian had fu ck all to do with.

[Heisenberg]

[rooney]

We played very well in the Cup Final at Wembley. We had the same players then, except Lemina and Hoedt and Van Dyke were not playing. We looked as though we could score goals then and apart from the long distance shot that Forster failed to save, we defended very well. Therefore it must be tactics and attitude why we are so poor now surely?

[CB Fry]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2565[/ATTACH]

I reckon Unsworth will turn it round once he has a transfer window to put his stamp on the team.

[doddisalegend]

We played very well in the Cup Final at Wembley. We had the same players then, except Lemina and Hoedt and Van Dyke were not playing. We looked as though we could score goals then and apart from the long distance shot that Forster failed to save, we defended very well. Therefore it must be tactics and attitude why we are so poor now surely?

 

 

I'm not sure a cup final is a good guide to players general ability in the week to week hum drum of league football. Most players will rise their game in such a situation.

 

Last season we could at least defend and be hard to beat now we aren't even that.

[doddisalegend]

It went wrong two summers ago when we failed to adequately replace a number of important players. Despite that last season was not the disaster some tried to paint it as and had we rectified the squad issues, shifted out the trouble makers in the squad and kept Puel last summer we wouldn't be where we are now.