Mauricio Pellegrino: In or Out?

[The9]

I remember when you told us redmond was 'fine' as Mane's replacement...how is that going?

 

As identified last season, he needs to pass the ball to the striker and not shoot when on the edge of the box - if he did that, he'd create some questions in the defenders' minds about what they need to do to stop him. Right now, just let him come inside and shoot every time, 5% success rate.

 

Everyone putting on a Saints shirt can improve plenty at the moment, which is part of the problem.

 

Incidentally, I remember you banging on about how awful Pelle was... in our best season for 20+ years.

[Suhari]

I think the hierarchy (mainly Reed) has got rather complacent and assumed our tactics worked so will always work - in the past 3 years the only time we've significantly switched tactics was when Koeman went 3/5 at the back in response to a slump, and he was slated by the club for that when he left. It looks like the managers since are doing as they're told which makes us predictable and easy to defend against, not assisted by a distinct lack of on-field energy which we no longer have fatigue as an excuse for. We've gone from missing loads of chances to not creating enough to begin with, and of course from conceding very few chances, to far more of them as well as it feeling like we concede from every decent attack.

 

It might be, of course, that all this complacency is down to Pellegrino, but it seems unlikely. Logical thinking won't keep him in a job though, as last summer proved.

 

I do wonder if the formation is forced on the manager by Reed. It seems so........ I remember DeBoer leaving CP and the reports he had upset the board by NOT playing a specific formation, despite it being a part of his contact (I might be mis-remembering the contract bit).

 

My point being: are we sticking with 4231 because Reed requires it?

[SuperSAINT]

I do wonder if the formation is forced on the manager by Reed. It seems so........ I remember DeBoer leaving CP and the reports he had upset the board by NOT playing a specific formation, despite it being a part of his contact (I might be mis-remembering the contract bit).

 

My point being: are we sticking with 4231 because Reed requires it?

 

The counter-point to that is we were crying out to go back to 4-2-3-1 last season when the diamond formation was the scapegoat. Maybe it's just the players aren't good enough?

[SKD]

I do wonder if the formation is forced on the manager by Reed. It seems so........ I remember DeBoer leaving CP and the reports he had upset the board by NOT playing a specific formation, despite it being a part of his contact (I might be mis-remembering the contract bit).

 

My point being: are we sticking with 4231 because Reed requires it?

 

It's no secret that Les is a big fan of the 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 formation, with a philosophy of keeping the ball throughout all the age groups.

 

I heard whispers at the time that Les was unhappy (I'm told the 2 didn't have a great relationship anyway) with Koeman when he was playing 3-5-2 as it wasn't the "preferred formation".

 

I very much doubt that Les tells or makes managers play a certain formation, but I expect he signs managers who historically play this system and that style of play / formation is one of the things stipulated during talks when taking over (as you would expect in all honesty).

 

Les has his, unrealistic IMO, idea of 'The Southampton Way' which is playing in a certain style whilst bringing through x number of academy players, no matter how good they are.

[The9]

The counter-point to that is we were crying out to go back to 4-2-3-1 last season when the diamond formation was the scapegoat. Maybe it's just the players aren't good enough?

 

Barely any difference between 4231 and 433 diamond anyway, just the balance in the role of the second holding midfielder, and ours went forward plenty anyway when Schneiderlin (and last season Ward-Prowse) did it.

[The9]

Koeman statement:

 

https://southamptonfc.com/news/2016-06-14/statement-southampton-accept-ronald-koemans-resignation

 

"build on our long-term plan, and work with a new management team who share both the club’s and our supporters’ values and ambitions."

 

That management team doesn't share the club's values comment appears to have been a dig about Koeman (eg) signing Elia/Djuricic rather than picking the kids, and changing the formation so it wasn't the same as the rest of the club's teams were playing. It bloody worked though.

 

Reed is a widely respected coach with a few books on systems (you may remember the CBs going wide of the box for goal kicks and the entire routine when Kelvin was in goal - that was in one of his books), it seems to me that we've overlooked that systems change and regularly develop to counter other systems, and we've been left behind and got stagnant, and that's also reflected in player apathy.

[charliemiller]

Heres an interesting theory .......Puel was sacked in the end because he was asked to change his style to a more attacking one and he refused to change his style of coaching allegedly ?

 

Maybe Puel wanted to change to a more attacking stance and Reed refused to allow him to change the formation and playing style ? The continuation this year of this defensive non scoring snail like over coached crap would certainly suggest this .

 

Even the commentators said at the weekend when our players get the ball the first instinct is to pass backwards when we were 2 nil down against liverpool .

 

The players are over coached to be defensive currently they do NOTHING instinctively in attack and this needs to be changed , let them express themselves in attack and we might get out of this mess .

 

Currently we are heading for relegation for sure , and anyone who doubts it look at the next 10 fixtures and tell where points are coming from.

[SuperSAINT]

Barely any difference between 4231 and 433 diamond anyway, just the balance in the role of the second holding midfielder, and ours went forward plenty anyway when Schneiderlin (and last season Ward-Prowse) did it.

 

It was a 4-4-2 diamond, but whatever.

[The9]

Heres an interesting theory .......Puel was sacked in the end because he was asked to change his style to a more attacking one and he refused to change his style of coaching allegedly ?

 

Maybe Puel wanted to change to a more attacking stance and Reed refused to allow him to change the formation and playing style ? The continuation this year of this defensive non scoring snail like over coached crap would certainly suggest this .

 

Even the commentators said at the weekend when our players get the ball the first instinct is to pass backwards when we were 2 nil down against liverpool .

 

The players are over coached to be defensive currently they do NOTHING instinctively in attack and this needs to be changed , let them express themselves in attack and we might get out of this mess .

 

Currently we are heading for relegation for sure , and anyone who doubts it look at the next 10 fixtures and tell where points are coming from.

 

Yeah, I was having this argument with a mate yesterday - the rumour put around (apparently including MLT on Talk Sport) was that he wanted to remain defensive, but it makes no sense in the context of his previous role at Nice where he picked the un-defensive likes of Hatem Ben Arfa as a creative midfielder, or when looking at the goals scored when the team wasn't playing multiple games in a week.

 

It also wasn't him that signed Shane Long to play on the left because he's got great defensive tracking qualities, which was a classic Moneyball Black Box signing.

[mrfahaji]

The main thing we're still missing is a player who creates chaos around the opposing box, whether that's a Mane who runs at people or a Lallana who can hold the ball up there, keeps it moving and pulls players towards him. Everyone and his dog knows if you give Redmond a yard 20 yards out he'll shoot off target and you can just ignore Tadic in the box as he won't shoot unless it's on his left foot with an open goal and he's stood on the goalline. Davis is trying his best but he's a worker not a creator, and he's going to be on a downhill slope very soon if not already, and Lemina who seems to have creativity from his international position hasn't been tried. Boufal is creative but hasn't found the consistency yet. The other thing that's not happening (and was a problem last season) is Bertrand overlapping as much - I assume we stopped it because we rarely created a chance from it, yet we persist with Cedric crossing to no-one all the time.

 

We always had a defence magnet until Mane went. Even so, these exact same players were good enough for 8th last season and a cup final, which means they're still good enough for it now.

 

Agree with all this, I do think Boufal could be that defence magnet though. He doesn't have the pace but he at least puts defenders on the back foot. I saw some coverage of the Man City game during HT of our game (think it was an ESPN channel). It was showing how they use the pace of Sane and Sterling to stretch the game and give de Bruyne space in the middle, allowing KdB to be arguably the best player in the division so far. I've long thought we miss pace up front, but this helped pinpoint why we miss it. Obviously we don't have someone of de Bruyne's calibre, but if we created more space then who knows which of our players could be effective in a more central position. Boufal, Tadic? Maybe even Davis or JWP.

 

We don't create chances because we don't get men forward, we don't create space, and we don't make defenders backpedal or turn. This is the main problem with Tadic and Redmond on 'opposite' wings, the ball never 'keeps going', the only time we create is when the full back overlaps and gets to the byline and we even seem reluctant to do much of that!

[The9]

It was a 4-4-2 diamond, but whatever.

 

Again, basically the same stuff, the point of the diamond or central striker is a matter of a couple of yards - Ward-Prowse sure as hell didn't make it work in that 4 goal pre-season thrashing either. Personnel not positions are what's important in modern systems, which are usually too flexible for accurate categorisation. Pochettino-era Saints with the full backs ahead of the defensive midfielders shows how irrelevant conventional formations are. About the only argument worth having nowadays is with that helmet on here who lists the goalkeeper as part of it.

[The9]

Agree with all this, I do think Boufal could be that defence magnet though. He doesn't have the pace but he at least puts defenders on the back foot. I saw some coverage of the Man City game during HT of our game (think it was an ESPN channel). It was showing how they use the pace of Sane and Sterling to stretch the game and give de Bruyne space in the middle, allowing KdB to be arguably the best player in the division so far. I've long thought we miss pace up front, but this helped pinpoint why we miss it. Obviously we don't have someone of de Bruyne's calibre, but if we created more space then who knows which of our players could be effective in a more central position. Boufal, Tadic? Maybe even Davis or JWP.

 

We don't create chances because we don't get men forward, we don't create space, and we don't make defenders backpedal or turn. This is the main problem with Tadic and Redmond on 'opposite' wings, the ball never 'keeps going', the only time we create is when the full back overlaps and gets to the byline and we even seem reluctant to do much of that!

 

...and even when they cross it, who are they crossing it to?

[mrfahaji]

...and even when they cross it, who are they crossing it to?

 

Well quite, one thing is the number of bodies we get in the box, another is why I emphasised "getting to the byline", because at least when they put in across the ground it suits Gabbiadini and Austin (if they are playing). We could even get a lucky deflection off a defender that way too! But we seem intent on lobbing it in the air in the hope that Gabbiadini can outmuscle or outleap the 4 strapping defenders marking him...

[ringwood]

Keep hearing good enough for 8th, well last year 6th was 69 pts and 7th 61 pts then 8th/9th were 46pts , the drop zone was 34 pts we were only two wins above Watford, and win and two draws above Swansea, the year before 6th was 63 pts only a win from 5th place, yet the next behind us was 62,60 then a drop to 51pts the drop zone was 37pts

 

This year what will the drop zone be ? 37 or 34 pts , currently we' a win and draw above it , can't see us surviving unless there's a big change , realistically with January Transfer Windows being not one of Saints strong points the only major change can be the manager and coaching staff , we have very few players left who will attract big offers that we can afford to lose , VVD is replaceable we did it last season beyond that Bertie. Can't see us selling Romeo, Lemina , they haven't reached that point in their contracts yet , who's going to buy Long or Austin ? The managers job is to manage that includes finding a system that works for the players already here, whatever system works , but this guy and his backroom staff don't seem to be able to make changes, same players picked same formation same result ,

 

Its time to change - if not the manager then look to the backroom staff , FF is out of form , maybe time to get a different coaching approach , whatever we do we cannot procrastinate over the decision , nor should we restrict ourselves to those managers on the Dole

[pluto]

Id get rid of Leslie before Pellegrino.

 

If you let les pick again you'll simply get another Puel /Pellegrino type.

 

Loser Les likes em submissive

 

Not a Koeman or Adkins then ??

 

Should Reed get a restraining order on you ?

[Depressed of Shirley]

The reason that there is a preferred formation is so that all age groups can play it. This then means that you can identify players for each position, and you can then either buy or promote and know what you are getting. If you change the formation each time you appoint a new coach, you end up with players who don't suit the system, and can be a drag on the wage bill. This is partly what went wrong at Palace where they hired a coach who played in a way that didn't suit the players they had. Luckily, they quickly reverted to Hodgson, who although hopeless at least sets up the same way as Pardew.

 

Our problem isn't formation, its the players we have to play in it. Tadic and Boufal aren't trusted to play as a proper number 10, so they are shunted out wide. This reduces their effectiveness. I would agree that if we play two up front away at Anfield, we will probably lose, but there is no excuse for not trying it in home games against Watford or Burnley.

 

In most of our home games this season, the opposition has put 10 men behind the ball from the start, because they know that we don't have the players to either pick out an incisive pass, or the players to head in a cross. After 70 mins, with our crowd getting agitated, they then come out and attack more, and in Burnley's case win easily.

 

For me, I would play Gabbi in the no 10 role, similar to how he played for Italy last week, and then play Austin as the striker. Leave out Tadic or Boufal or Redmond, it really wont make much difference which, and when we get into the last 10 minute panic, push Virgil up front, and bring on JWP to hit free kicks and corners at him.

[diggers]

Nothings going to change until we start buying players that their clubs don't want to let go. IMO, thats the difference between the real top teams and the rest. Every player we purchased in our squad was "available". To me that means that they weren't brilliant for their team. Kind of like us letting Long or Austin leave in January, to bring in better talent.

The top six only target players who are covered by their existing clubs, we target the ones not quite cutting it.

Okay, we do uncover the odd diamond in the rough, but more often than not, theres a reason they were for up for sale in the first place.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Not a Koeman or Adkins then ??

 

Should Reed get a restraining order on you ?

 

He should do as Heisenberg is his stalker.

 

If the police raided his bedsit they would find all sorts of defaced paper cuttings, secretly taken photos and a doll with pins in...

[DuncanRG]

Nothings going to change until we start buying players that their clubs don't want to let go. IMO, thats the difference between the real top teams and the rest. Every player we purchased in our squad was "available". To me that means that they weren't brilliant for their team. Kind of like us letting Long or Austin leave in January, to bring in better talent.

The top six only target players who are covered by their existing clubs, we target the ones not quite cutting it.

Okay, we do uncover the odd diamond in the rough, but more often than not, theres a reason they were for up for sale in the first place.

 

Good plan. Can you think of any reasons why the top six manage to prise valued players away but we don't?

 

These players are sold by big clubs for a reason but also made it to big clubs for a reason. It's usually because they're good, but perhaps don't turn out to make the first XI of a top club. There's no shame in that, though I do wonder whether you can upset the balance of a team by bringing in too many of these players.

Edited 20 November, 2017 by DuncanRG

[sadoldgit]

I am genuinely intrigued why 45 don't want him sacked. Is it because they think we could get worse in to replace him (Black for instance) or is it because they lay more blame higher up (Reed Kreuger etc)? (SoG need not reply to this as I know he would never change anyone anytime and if he was on the Titanic would still be shouting "don't panic - everything will work out" as the ship sunk below the waves).

 

No, you are right. It is always much better to panic.

[THINWHITEDUKE]

Out. I'm usually supportive of the manager but it's obvious he's out of his depth. We're a top 10 side with decent players sliding towards the relegation zone. We need a jolt, someone that will kick the players up the arse.

 

This.

[Window Cleaner]

Shouldn't have sacked the last one, can't see anything to be gained in sacking this one and having another shot at the manager lucky dip. There are only so many managers who'll benefit the team and we'll not get any of them. The solution is get rid of Reed, get better players and keep the manager.

[St Marco]

I voted out but I don't blame mopo for how things have turned out. The rot started before he was here and the blame lies at the feet of Reed and co. Add to that some of the coaches ie Black.

Whilst I have seen nothing from Mopo to suggest he is a good manager it makes no difference if we get him out and bring in another defense minded manager. Reed changed our style of play and should have kept Puel on if he wanted us to play the same way. We have gone from a high pressing free flowing attacking side into a slow boring ultra defensive team. Add to that we are in the bottom 4 of amount of distance covered shows the coaches have not been getting the best out of our players in terms of effort.

If we sack him and appoint someone like Fat Sam, Pullis, Pardew or Adkins imo that will show utter poor planning from the supposed genius who always has new managers planned out well in advance (so he says).

[Batman]

down to 15th as it stands

[Suhari]

down to 15th as it stands

 

I suspect it'll be a while before we pop our heads above halfway now.

[Charlie Wayman]

Pellegrino is a disaster whichever way you look at it, just listen to the rhetorical claptrap he spouts every Friday to the press corps.

[Whitey Grandad]

Shouldn't have sacked the last one, can't see anything to be gained in sacking this one and having another shot at the manager lucky dip. There are only so many managers who'll benefit the team and we'll not get any of them. The solution is get rid of Reed, get better players and keep the manager.

If that’s the solution then you’re saying that everything’s wrong apart from the manager. Unfortunately for that view the players are on long-term contracts so replacing them all is not an option.

[DT]

Watch as West Brom stay up with fat Sam and we go down with slim twit

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Whitey Grandad]

The reason that there is a preferred formation is so that all age groups can play it. This then means that you can identify players for each position, and you can then either buy or promote and know what you are getting. If you change the formation each time you appoint a new coach, you end up with players who don't suit the system, and can be a drag on the wage bill. This is partly what went wrong at Palace where they hired a coach who played in a way that didn't suit the players they had. Luckily, they quickly reverted to Hodgson, who although hopeless at least sets up the same way as Pardew.

 

Our problem isn't formation, its the players we have to play in it. Tadic and Boufal aren't trusted to play as a proper number 10, so they are shunted out wide. This reduces their effectiveness. I would agree that if we play two up front away at Anfield, we will probably lose, but there is no excuse for not trying it in home games against Watford or Burnley.

 

In most of our home games this season, the opposition has put 10 men behind the ball from the start, because they know that we don't have the players to either pick out an incisive pass, or the players to head in a cross. After 70 mins, with our crowd getting agitated, they then come out and attack more, and in Burnley's case win easily.

 

For me, I would play Gabbi in the no 10 role, similar to how he played for Italy last week, and then play Austin as the striker. Leave out Tadic or Boufal or Redmond, it really wont make much difference which, and when we get into the last 10 minute panic, push Virgil up front, and bring on JWP to hit free kicks and corners at him.

If we’ve got the wrong players to suit our chosen formation then it’s the formation that has to change because we can’t change the players.

[Saint Fan CaM]

If we’ve got the wrong players to suit our chosen formation then it’s the formation that has to change because we can’t change the players.

 

Don't be naive- Reed will never allow that...it's all part of the Southampton Way. Which is no bad strategy if you've got decent players to execute it. Reed has allowed the squad to become so weakened only major surgery on it will turn things around. Sacking MoPe will achieve nothing other than save Les Reeds face temporarily - until the next manager finds he's inherited a bunch of sub-standard players.

[Pilchards]

I find it puzzling that the press don’t write struggling Southampton or under fire Pellegrino?

Only reading things like Swansea on the brink of sacking Clement, Pulis to go and West Ham blah, blah.

Maybe they view us as little Southampton and that us fans are just a bunch of satisfied southern softies.

I think we’ve missed an opportunity live on sky this Sunday to let them know how we feel?

[gordonToo]

At the risk of oversimplification the game is essentially about goals and since Mane and Pelle left they have been fairly rare events. So I'm laying the blame largely with the recruitment side of the business.

[Mr Saints]

I find it puzzling that the press don’t write struggling Southampton or under fire Pellegrino?

Only reading things like Swansea on the brink of sacking Clement, Pulis to go and West Ham blah, blah.

Maybe they view us as little Southampton and that us fans are just a bunch of satisfied southern softies.

I think we’ve missed an opportunity live on sky this Sunday to let them know how we feel?

 

You’re right, our pathetic performances seem to have mosty gone under the radar so far. The press have been focusing on the Pulis situation but fail to win on Saturday and surely their attentions will be turned to Pellegrino.

[supersonic]

The board made a a massive statement in the summer that the problem last year was the manager and not the playing staff....turns out that statement was hugely mis-judged!

[CB Fry]

I find it puzzling that the press don’t write struggling Southampton or under fire Pellegrino?

Only reading things like Swansea on the brink of sacking Clement, Pulis to go and West Ham blah, blah.

Maybe they view us as little Southampton and that us fans are just a bunch of satisfied southern softies.

I think we’ve missed an opportunity live on sky this Sunday to let them know how we feel?

 

It's not puzzling is It - Swansea are second bottom. WBA have lost 5 in a row and have been on a dreadful run since the spring. West Ham have been in and around the bottom 4 all season. Everton are top 7 expectation but currently bottom 5.

 

All we've done is bimble about in mid-table. Journalists aren't going to write struggling Southampton when we're 12th, 13th, 14th.

 

When we lose 5 on the spin and/or genuinely trouble the bottom three then the papers will use the struggling Southampton line you are so desperate to see.

[Graffito]

The Times had a feature on struggling Southampton the other day.

[OldNick]

No, you are right. It is always much better to panic.

its not panicking, its assessing the mess, and trying to stop the rot until too late.

The mistake was that the big mouths won the day and we lost our last manager, who would have had the last summer window to get some more players in, to progress.

We played very organised and attractive football, just nobody who could put the ball in the net. Had he been allowed the summer to rectify that we would be flying higher now. Especially with the fixture list we had.

[hypochondriac]

its not panicking, its assessing the mess, and trying to stop the rot until too late.

The mistake was that the big mouths won the day and we lost our last manager, who would have had the last summer window to get some more players in, to progress.

We played very organised and attractive football, just nobody who could put the ball in the net. Had he been allowed the summer to rectify that we would be flying higher now. Especially with the fixture list we had.

Lots of rumours that puel was sacked because he didn't recognise any need to play better football and he wasn't popular with the players so I fail to see how it's the fans fault for being unhappy with months of subpar performance.

 

The mistake was sacking the last man and then not replacing them with someone better.

[Scully]

Puel played attractive football? Arf

[DT]

'Don't worry, son, it'll get better soon' - me to my Saints-supporting 11 year old last night. 'Important to support them in the bad times, as well as the good.' Watched Brighton game - they have enthusiasm in spades. Even Stoke had drive and determination. Why has ours fizzled? Too many players who don't want to be there? Manager who can't inspire or even convince them he knows what he's doing? Coaches who are sucking the life and talent out of our players? Or just not good enough? The big, quick change that might at least add a bit of zip and kick the recalcitrant ones up the bum a bit is changing the manager. And I'm afraid we're probably in such a desperate position that Big Sam is the one to do that. Then we need to clear up who is at least keen to play. I'd say there are question marks over VVD - at least Stephens and Yoshida give it their all. Tadic is just terrible, so that's an easy one. Boufal at least has some raw talent that can unlock defences providing he's played far enough up the pitch. Forster is also terrible and has to be sold, or at least replaced with a good, first team keeper. Even Boruc is better by far. Then up top - i think Gabby is good enough, just too isolated. Play him with Long to do all the legwork and help get him in the game. Play Redmond if you must, but again far up the pitch so he doesn't do damage. Davis is another who's at least a big trier, so gets in. Anyway, just a few thoughts. But we need to do SOMETHING, and quick. Otherwise we are in freefall. Haven't seen a poorer side on current form.

[Scully]

I don't see how we can sack him without a replacement and there's a lot of competition for managers in the PL right now. Bad times.

[Greenridge]

I don't see how we can sack him without a replacement and there's a lot of competition for managers in the PL right now. Bad times.

 

It's OK, Les has a long line of potential managers in his black box database. Succession planning.

[Pilchards]

It's OK, Les has a long line of potential managers in his black box database. Succession planning.

 

That have been out of a job for 6 months as nobody else wants them.

Yes, plenty of those we employ.

[Greenridge]

That have been out of a job for 6 months as nobody else wants them.

Yes, plenty of those we employ.

 

It was cringeworthy then. Even more so now.

 

https://southamptonfc.com/news/2014-06-12/reed-new-boss-will-share-saints-vision

[Suhari]

It was cringeworthy then. Even more so now.

 

https://southamptonfc.com/news/2014-06-12/reed-new-boss-will-share-saints-vision

 

Oh my ****.......

 

"It’s about style, it’s about entertainment and it’s about values and the way we go about things.

“That’s why the success of the academy has been so prominent, because we are developing players for the future of this club.

“We want the fans to come here and be proud of what they see and we want them to be entertained – but we want to win matches.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Does`nt look like he`s off anytime soon does it?

[beatlesaint]

Oh my ****.......

 

"It’s about style, it’s about entertainment and it’s about values and the way we go about things.

“That’s why the success of the academy has been so prominent, because we are developing players for the future of this club.

“We want the fans to come here and be proud of what they see and we want them to be entertained – but we want to win matches.

 

Bloody hell, thats a massive fail then all round !

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Does`nt look like he`s off anytime soon does it?

 

Well we only sacked Puel three weeks after the season ended so I doubt we're going to sack another manager three days after a bad defeat that encapsulated all the issues he has failed to resolve 5 months into the job.

[DuncanRG]

That interview was given before two brilliant seasons under Koeman.

[doddisalegend]

Bloody hell, thats a massive fail then all round !

 

Hardly. That interview was done after Poch left he then appointed Koeman and we had our best two ever seasons in the premier league.