The Players or the Manager?

[Heisenberg]

Puel without a doubt. He ripped the heart and soul out of an exciting team and the players are still suffering. The commentators were saying such on Sunday as well. It's clear for everyone to see except a few silly sausages on here who think Puel is some kind of god.

 

He was the worst appointment in recent Southampton FC history by a long way, so Reed needs to take some of the blame for this too. He employed that clown.

 

Agreed. I think some underestimate the damage Puel caused.

 

Unfortunately you dont just reset players brains and feet once a new manager comes in. They are now drilled and conditioned to go backwards and be cautious..... Could take months for some to recover.

 

Its no coincidence that Lemina has looked our best player thus far...

 

Seen a few mention a "hangover" from last season... Sums it up for me.

[Nordic Saint]

Puel without a doubt. He ripped the heart and soul out of an exciting team and the players are still suffering. The commentators were saying such on Sunday as well. It's clear for everyone to see except a few silly sausages on here who think Puel is some kind of god.

 

He was the worst appointment in recent Southampton FC history by a long way, so Reed needs to take some of the blame for this too. He employed that clown.

 

You mean he was the one who sold our exciting players, Mane, Wanyama and Pelle? I don't think so. I'd hardly call the players Puel was left with, Long, Ward-Prowse, Redmond, Hojbjerg, Austin, Davis etc 'exciting'. The heart had already been ripped out of our exciting team before Puel arrived. He was left with nothing exciting up front.

 

Also, I wonder how many of these pages Watson and Black carry around are from the Les Reed coaching manual, and not from the new managers?

[shurlock]

Agreed. I think some underestimate the damage Puel caused.

 

Unfortunately you dont just reset players brains and feet once a new manager comes in. They are now drilled and conditioned to go backwards and be cautious..... Could take months for some to recover.

 

Its no coincidence that Lemina has looked our best player thus far...

 

Seen a few mention a "hangover" from last season... Sums it up for me.

 

Textbook

[derry]

No, they weren’t playing a 4-4-2, notwithstanding the crap you were spouting yesterday.

 

They played quite a defensive 4-2-3-1 insofar as Chilwell is a fullback. It was Vardy up top, Mahrez behind him, with Gray on the right, Chilwell, a fullback on the left and Iborra and Ndidi as the two DMs.

 

In fact, Leicester’s formation yesterday was a a move away from 4-4-2 as Okazaki, the striker who’s partnered Vardy for the last couple of years, was benched. You were endorsing Leicester’s play even as it deliberately rejected 4-4-2. Make your mind up pal

 

By contrast, most commentators saw Everton playing a ‘traditional’, ‘naive’ 4-4-2 in the first half (the consensus is that Rooney played more as no.9/striker in the first half). Of course, none of this was helped by Everton’s high back four that had a combined age of 100 - no doubt you’d also like us to play a higher defensive line.

 

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/grey-skies-still-hover-everton-13829409

 

Naive sort of sums you up.

 

Ignorant sums you up.

[SKD]

Ignorant sums you up.

 

He's bang on though....

[Dark Munster]

Puel without a doubt. He ripped the heart and soul out of an exciting team and the players are still suffering. The commentators were saying such on Sunday as well. It's clear for everyone to see except a few silly sausages on here who think Puel is some kind of god.

 

He was the worst appointment in recent Southampton FC history by a long way, so Reed needs to take some of the blame for this too. He employed that clown.

Indeed. I'll never forgive him for selling Mane, Pelle, and Big Vic. And for getting Austin and VVD injured. And turning Fonte's head and selling him in January when we were already short at the back.

[Greenridge]

Indeed. I'll never forgive him for selling Mane, Pelle, and Big Vic. And for getting Austin and VVD injured. And turning Fonte's head and selling him in January when we were already short at the back.

 

You wrote the same verbatim crud to a post of mine yesterday. It seems that in both cases your obsesssion with Puel is clouding your ability to read what is written before you copy and paste your response.

[Ultimatt]

Bloated squad built for Europe when our time in Europe is done for the foreseeable future.

 

1. Quality players

2. Depth

 

^ Pick one. We're not rich enough for both. The board are continuing with option #2, replacing every player we sell with a £10-£20m new first teamer and it's seen our quality deteriorate the last couple of years. The pathway from the Academy is well and truly blocked with most of our young players getting barely any minutes to help them grow.

 

 

Players 24yo or younger:

 

Player(Age) - Minutes

Redmond(23) - 698

Lemina(23) - 575

Hoedt(23) - 360

Stephens(23) - 360

JWP(23) - 256

Boufal(24) - 233

McQueen(22) - 20

Hojbjerg(22) - 6

Targett(22) - 0

Bednarek(21) - 0

Sims(20) - 0

 

Only 2 of our young players have played at least 5 out of 10 games.

 

Academy:

Stephens(23) - 360

JWP(23) - 256

McQueen(22) - 20

Targett(22) - 0

Sims(20) - 0

Hesketh(21) - 0

 

Gallagher, Seager, Reed, Lewis & Olomola out on loan.

 

 

Would like us to start trusting the youth again as rotation players which frees up money to buy better 1st team players in that £20-£30m bracket.

[ally_uk]

Not replacing Mane, Wanyama, Pelle adequately has cost us.

 

We have got in players such as Redmond who quite frankly might have potential but how long will it take for the talent to surface if it even does?

 

It might be better to scrap this transfer model or minimize it and say bring in one or two players with potential / future players.

 

Then focus more on established players that have a track record of actually having the ability to score or assist in the Premier. Might cost us more in Wages but currently I feel this is what is holding us back.

 

Key first signing to fit this mould Theo Walcott..... Has a history of scoring makes sense.

[doddisalegend]

Not replacing Mane, Wanyama, Pelle adequately has cost us.

 

We have got in players such as Redmond who quite frankly might have potential but how long will it take for the talent to surface if it even does?

 

It might be better to scrap this transfer model or minimize it and say bring in one or two players with potential / future players.

 

Then focus more on established players that have a track record of actually having the ability to score or assist in the Premier. Might cost us more in Wages but currently I feel this is what is holding us back.

 

Key first signing to fit this mould Theo Walcott..... Has a history of scoring makes sense.

 

 

Glenn Murray, Jonathan Walters or Peter crouch......

 

Come to think of it don't Shane Long and Charlie Austin fit that criteria to...

[Maggie May]

Is Gary Rowett in the black box?

[doddisalegend]

Couple of snipets from this article

 

http://www.bing.com/news/apiclick.aspx?ref=BDIGeneric&aid=C98EA5B0842DBB9405BBF071E1DA7651530FFE51&tid=E66B0C3EBF4F4A66A4A74253DBA1F8D0&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.football365.com%2fnews%2fpremier-league-winners-and-losers-77&c=15734334735330043481&mkt=en-gb

 

Winners

Claude Puel

As our piece from the game says, anyone who watched Leicester City’s opening goal against Everton will not be worried about boring football just yet. Puel has attacking tools at Leicester that were not in his armoury at Southampton. The first task is taking Leicester away from trouble, but progress and pleasure need not be mutually exclusive.

 

Losers

 

Southampton’s attack

They’ve scored more than once in two of their 11 games in all competitions this season. But it was definitely all Claude Puel’s fault.

Edited 2 November, 2017 by doddisalegend

[ally_uk]

Our attack is the problem it isn't rocket science is it? We have talent up top in the form of Gabbiadini who currently we know has the ability to put the ball in the net, The issue is he has nobody capable of linking up and putting in a defense splitting ball to get on the end of. He must be really frustrated you watch him in recent games and he is doing the right thing by making clever runs but is becoming isolated because nobody has to the tools or capabilities to play to the strengths of him.

 

You look at our midfield and we have players who are to similar who play cautious defensive football. What we need is a Lallana type who has the natural flair and creativity. Him and Mane were not replaced adequately sure we have Boufal yes he has the potential and can change a game but he is still learning the trade and is currently to inconsistent.

 

Now alot of people keep banging on about Ziyech but if you think about it logically he is exactly the final piece of the jigsaw this squad is missing the creative outlet. Stick £35 million down and go get him! that would be a proper Mane replacement. Would he ever come to Saints though?

[Dark Munster]

You wrote the same verbatim crud to a post of mine yesterday. It seems that in both cases your obsesssion with Puel is clouding your ability to read what is written before you copy and paste your response.

You mean in response to the same verbatim crud about Puel.

[nta786]

after Romeu's comments can't help but feel it truly is Pellegrino who is failing.

Shocking substitutes, unable to get Tadic back to the quality we've seen, and seem woefully inept attacking.

 

Granted, Redmond is crap, but Redmond has had better days under Puel than this season.

PPG with Puel was 1.211, with Pellegrino as it stands is 1.182 with a far easier fixture list.

[Ultimatt]

What's a manager supposed to do with our players? Our attackers lack quality plain and simple. In the same way Everton have gone from 7th to relegation with the loss of a quality striker, so have we after Pelle/Mane weren't properly replaced. It's not as simple as clicking his fingers to turn players like Davis, Tadic, Redmond into goalscorers when at no point in their careers have they been good at that.

[Verbal Kint]

What's a manager supposed to do with our players? Our attackers lack quality plain and simple. In the same way Everton have gone from 7th to relegation with the loss of a quality striker, so have we after Pelle/Mane weren't properly replaced. It's not as simple as clicking his fingers to turn players like Davis, Tadic, Redmond into goalscorers when at no point in their careers have they been good at that.

 

So don't play them then. Give McQueen a run, change formation to 352, 3412, 442... Just do something different because nothing will change if the same players are picked. Redmond will always be a terrible footballer, Tadic will always be hopeless in front of goal and Forster will continue to be the worst goalkeeper in the league. So try something different

[Kingsbridge Saint]

Whilst Pellegrino continues to change nothing tactically the finger is pointed at him. These players have all looked far better under other managers in different systems. Puel and Pellegrino have destroyed them.

[Ultimatt]

Whilst Pellegrino continues to change nothing tactically the finger is pointed at him. These players have all looked far better under other managers in different systems. Puel and Pellegrino have destroyed them.

 

Have they?

Gabbi a bench player at Napoli when we bought him. 50 goals in 205 league games. (0.244)

Redmond 18 goals in 174 league games before joining us, with most of those being in the Championship. (.115)

Tadic with a good 2 seasons at Twente, but only 11 goals in 65 league games under Koeman. (.243)

Boufal with 1 good season at Lille, otherwise only 14 goals in his other 118 league games. (.170)

Davis 33 goals in 437 league games, with his most prolific season being 6 goals for a dominant Rangers in the SPL. (.076)

Romeu 3 goals in 175 league games. (.017)

Bertrand 6 goals in 290 league games. (.021)

Cedric 2 goals in 151 league games. (.013)

Yoshida 15 goals in 236 league games. (.064)

VVD 20 goals in 193 league games. (.104)

 

Our entire starting 11 averages a combined 1.067 goals a game over their careers.

 

The fact is our attacking players just aren't very good. Combine that with a keeper incapable of keeping anything within a foot of the post out and we have a lower-table quality team.

[rooney]

It is the same week in and week out that our attackers just do not have the quality to score goals regularly and Forster is too slow to save them. Face up.

[Convict Colony]

I think most attackers struggle to breakdown the opposition when the speed at what we play at would enable an OAP to get back in time.

[Bit of a plonker]

The premier league, in general, is absolutely dire this year and is characterised by defensive anti-football. If you ignore the top 6 (wouldn't that be nice), the teams from Burnley down have scored an average of 0.9 goals per game. That is 70% of the teams in the league scoring less than a goal a game. The top 6 teams have scored as many goals as the rest of the teams added together. We are one of a number of teams in mid-table malaise, where the gap between top and bottom is getting wider. Even though there is more money than ever, the entertainment is being sucked out of football by scared owners and clubs who value premier league survival over all else. The fan does not matter, as amongst those 14 teams, there are enough muppets who will turn up week in, week out, paying to watch tripe served up by the vast majority of teams.

 

So, with Saints in that context, players or manager to blame, look wider. Look at the state of football. As TV deals get ever larger, the discrepancies in the league get ever greater, then all managers and players are just pawns to ensure a minimum of 17th place finish. The vision that we were selling a few years ago of aiming for the champions league is gone for good, or at least until the structure of the game changes, which can't happen soon enough. If we got rid of Pellegrino, we would just get another manager in whose remit is to keep us in the league. What makes me sad is that a few years ago, we played enjoyable football. We were fighting to be at the top of the best of the rest and compete on very close terms with those above us. Now we are a WBA, BHA, Huddersfield, Burnley, Stoke, Newcastle identikit.

 

To make a difference, we need both new players and a new manager. Yes, we tried to show ambition by holding onto VVD, but we didn't back that up with investment. Lemina has been great in his few games so far, but apart from that, in terms of making us an attacking team that is still trying to break the mould, we need 2 or 3 top class players. We can't sign the elite level, but we have historically done really well scouting either top level players from lower quality leagues, like Mane in Austria, J-Rod and Clyne from the Championship, or fringe players from the really big teams, like Bertrand or Romeu. Where is our scouting finding those players now.

 

And why would they come here, when we have become just like everyone else? Where is our differential? Same counts for managers. What is now making us stand out from the crowd? This is where we have massively missed a trick, because we were in a stand out position. That is down to mis-management at the top. That could be as a result of Kat trying to sell the club, but we need to get that leadership and direction back in a big way now. Step forward Mr Gao. Owning a premier league team in a moment like this needs true leadership, not a faceless figurehead.

[Whitey Grandad]

I think most attackers struggle to breakdown the opposition when the speed at what we play at would enable an OAP to get back in time.

 

I was impressed by the speed with which Tadic left the pitch when substituted. I never knew he had it in him.

[adrian lord]

The premier league, in general, is absolutely dire this year and is characterised by defensive anti-football. If you ignore the top 6 (wouldn't that be nice), the teams from Burnley down have scored an average of 0.9 goals per game. That is 70% of the teams in the league scoring less than a goal a game. The top 6 teams have scored as many goals as the rest of the teams added together. We are one of a number of teams in mid-table malaise, where the gap between top and bottom is getting wider. Even though there is more money than ever, the entertainment is being sucked out of football by scared owners and clubs who value premier league survival over all else. The fan does not matter, as amongst those 14 teams, there are enough muppets who will turn up week in, week out, paying to watch tripe served up by the vast majority of teams.

 

So, with Saints in that context, players or manager to blame, look wider. Look at the state of football. As TV deals get ever larger, the discrepancies in the league get ever greater, then all managers and players are just pawns to ensure a minimum of 17th place finish. The vision that we were selling a few years ago of aiming for the champions league is gone for good, or at least until the structure of the game changes, which can't happen soon enough. If we got rid of Pellegrino, we would just get another manager in whose remit is to keep us in the league. What makes me sad is that a few years ago, we played enjoyable football. We were fighting to be at the top of the best of the rest and compete on very close terms with those above us. Now we are a WBA, BHA, Huddersfield, Burnley, Stoke, Newcastle identikit.

 

To make a difference, we need both new players and a new manager. Yes, we tried to show ambition by holding onto VVD, but we didn't back that up with investment. Lemina has been great in his few games so far, but apart from that, in terms of making us an attacking team that is still trying to break the mould, we need 2 or 3 top class players. We can't sign the elite level, but we have historically done really well scouting either top level players from lower quality leagues, like Mane in Austria, J-Rod and Clyne from the Championship, or fringe players from the really big teams, like Bertrand or Romeu. Where is our scouting finding those players now.

 

And why would they come here, when we have become just like everyone else? Where is our differential? Same counts for managers. What is now making us stand out from the crowd? This is where we have massively missed a trick, because we were in a stand out position. That is down to mis-management at the top. That could be as a result of Kat trying to sell the club, but we need to get that leadership and direction back in a big way now. Step forward Mr Gao. Owning a premier league team in a moment like this needs true leadership, not a faceless figurehead.

 

Post of the year, Sir.

[trousers]

Post of the year, Sir.

Echo that. Splendid post that man

[Kingsbridge Saint]

The premier league, in general, is absolutely dire this year and is characterised by defensive anti-football. If you ignore the top 6 (wouldn't that be nice), the teams from Burnley down have scored an average of 0.9 goals per game. That is 70% of the teams in the league scoring less than a goal a game. The top 6 teams have scored as many goals as the rest of the teams added together. We are one of a number of teams in mid-table malaise, where the gap between top and bottom is getting wider. Even though there is more money than ever, the entertainment is being sucked out of football by scared owners and clubs who value premier league survival over all else. The fan does not matter, as amongst those 14 teams, there are enough muppets who will turn up week in, week out, paying to watch tripe served up by the vast majority of teams.

 

So, with Saints in that context, players or manager to blame, look wider. Look at the state of football. As TV deals get ever larger, the discrepancies in the league get ever greater, then all managers and players are just pawns to ensure a minimum of 17th place finish. The vision that we were selling a few years ago of aiming for the champions league is gone for good, or at least until the structure of the game changes, which can't happen soon enough. If we got rid of Pellegrino, we would just get another manager in whose remit is to keep us in the league. What makes me sad is that a few years ago, we played enjoyable football. We were fighting to be at the top of the best of the rest and compete on very close terms with those above us. Now we are a WBA, BHA, Huddersfield, Burnley, Stoke, Newcastle identikit.

 

To make a difference, we need both new players and a new manager. Yes, we tried to show ambition by holding onto VVD, but we didn't back that up with investment. Lemina has been great in his few games so far, but apart from that, in terms of making us an attacking team that is still trying to break the mould, we need 2 or 3 top class players. We can't sign the elite level, but we have historically done really well scouting either top level players from lower quality leagues, like Mane in Austria, J-Rod and Clyne from the Championship, or fringe players from the really big teams, like Bertrand or Romeu. Where is our scouting finding those players now.

 

And why would they come here, when we have become just like everyone else? Where is our differential? Same counts for managers. What is now making us stand out from the crowd? This is where we have massively missed a trick, because we were in a stand out position. That is down to mis-management at the top. That could be as a result of Kat trying to sell the club, but we need to get that leadership and direction back in a big way now. Step forward Mr Gao. Owning a premier league team in a moment like this needs true leadership, not a faceless figurehead.

 

Great post - but the man to step forward should be Krueger

[benjii]

I think most attackers struggle to breakdown the opposition when the speed at what we play at would enable an OAP to get back in time.

 

We attacked with zip numerous times against Burnley and got in plenty of decent positions.

 

Ultimatt's post nails it.

 

We've filled our squad with tidy technical players with a proven history of not scoring much. The difference between now and under Poch / Koeman was having Lambert/Rodriguez and Mane/Pelle.

 

Now we've got Gabbi/Redmond. I like Gabbi but he's not well suited to a loan striker role. You could play him with Long but Long is a proven non-scoring forward so you're still lacking goals. You could play him with Austin but his all-round game is very average and I'm not convinced he can physically muster a run of starts.

 

Whatever tactics we play it's hard to see more than one of our squad scoring over ten goals in a season. This was obvious in the summer and it was obvious in the previous summer.

 

Throw in a keeper who can't save stuff and a crowd full of spoilt dinlows and it's a tricky job.

[benjii]

The premier league, in general, is absolutely dire this year and is characterised by defensive anti-football. If you ignore the top 6 (wouldn't that be nice), the teams from Burnley down have scored an average of 0.9 goals per game. That is 70% of the teams in the league scoring less than a goal a game. The top 6 teams have scored as many goals as the rest of the teams added together. We are one of a number of teams in mid-table malaise, where the gap between top and bottom is getting wider. Even though there is more money than ever, the entertainment is being sucked out of football by scared owners and clubs who value premier league survival over all else. The fan does not matter, as amongst those 14 teams, there are enough muppets who will turn up week in, week out, paying to watch tripe served up by the vast majority of teams.

 

So, with Saints in that context, players or manager to blame, look wider. Look at the state of football. As TV deals get ever larger, the discrepancies in the league get ever greater, then all managers and players are just pawns to ensure a minimum of 17th place finish. The vision that we were selling a few years ago of aiming for the champions league is gone for good, or at least until the structure of the game changes, which can't happen soon enough. If we got rid of Pellegrino, we would just get another manager in whose remit is to keep us in the league. What makes me sad is that a few years ago, we played enjoyable football. We were fighting to be at the top of the best of the rest and compete on very close terms with those above us. Now we are a WBA, BHA, Huddersfield, Burnley, Stoke, Newcastle identikit.

 

To make a difference, we need both new players and a new manager. Yes, we tried to show ambition by holding onto VVD, but we didn't back that up with investment. Lemina has been great in his few games so far, but apart from that, in terms of making us an attacking team that is still trying to break the mould, we need 2 or 3 top class players. We can't sign the elite level, but we have historically done really well scouting either top level players from lower quality leagues, like Mane in Austria, J-Rod and Clyne from the Championship, or fringe players from the really big teams, like Bertrand or Romeu. Where is our scouting finding those players now.

 

And why would they come here, when we have become just like everyone else? Where is our differential? Same counts for managers. What is now making us stand out from the crowd? This is where we have massively missed a trick, because we were in a stand out position. That is down to mis-management at the top. That could be as a result of Kat trying to sell the club, but we need to get that leadership and direction back in a big way now. Step forward Mr Gao. Owning a premier league team in a moment like this needs true leadership, not a faceless figurehead.

 

Absolutely agree. We can't compete unless Gao wants to spend a fortune so we can at least have a distinctive identity or playing ethos.

[ally_uk]

We are a average mid table team.... Unless funds are spent on players capable of scoring / creating chances we will continue to be so. Doesn't matter who is managing our squad isn't as good as deluded saints fans think. Without a clear out and injection of quality it will be the same old story. I wouid give Pellegrino a chance. He should be bold drop half of the dross and play the youth players maybe we can develop and unearth some talent.

[Whitey Grandad]

Nothing wrong with the players, they are playing to the system that they have been coached. Control the game, keep your shape at all costs, guard against counter-attacks at all times. In other words, don't pile everything into attack because you might get caught at the back.

 

Now, the big question is whether this is just down to the manager alone.

[eurosaint]

Nothing wrong with the players, they are playing to the system that they have been coached. Control the game, keep your shape at all costs, guard against counter-attacks at all times. In other words, don't pile everything into attack because you might get caught at the back.

 

Now, the big question is whether this is just down to the manager alone.

 

Somebody told me on Saturday that he asked Boufal (he came very close to the touchline at Brighton) why he was out wide rather than through the middle - his answer was "ask the manager" !

I'm pretty sure that Pellegrino determines, game plan, tactics and subs and it was clear to me that v Burnley this is where we fell down ! In general play Burnley are no better than us but they define the characteristics of the manager (team spirit, hard work, discipline etc..) Perhaps we also play in the image of our man which is a bit dull and uninspiring !

[Wade Garrett]

Nothing wrong with the players, they are playing to the system that they have been coached. Control the game, keep your shape at all costs, guard against counter-attacks at all times. In other words, don't pile everything into attack because you might get caught at the back.

 

Now, the big question is whether this is just down to the manager alone.

 

Exactly right. And from Romeu's interview, the players aren't buying into it just like they didn't buy into Puel's tactics last season.

 

I think it's fanciful to suggest the tactics aren't down to the manager alone.

[Ultimatt]

Somebody told me on Saturday that he asked Boufal (he came very close to the touchline at Brighton) why he was out wide rather than through the middle - his answer was "ask the manager" !

I'm pretty sure that Pellegrino determines, game plan, tactics and subs and it was clear to me that v Burnley this is where we fell down ! In general play Burnley are no better than us but they define the characteristics of the manager (team spirit, hard work, discipline etc..) Perhaps we also play in the image of our man which is a bit dull and uninspiring !

 

Uhh.. the same Burnley that literally only had 1 shot on target, 3 in total against us? I don't think we've ever had as few shots as that since coming back to the prem. We can be boring but we're never anti-football like half these PL teams.

[doddisalegend]

Exactly right. And from Romeu's interview, the players aren't buying into it just like they didn't buy into Puel's tactics last season.

 

I think it's fanciful to suggest the tactics aren't down to the manager alone.

 

 

Romeu is on record saying how much enjoyed playing for Puel. It's a mistake to think an entire squad all think the same.

 

The flip side of your arguement is the players are at fault. They are paid a lot of money to do the best they can on the pitch. They don't have to like the tactics, team selection or manager they do do have to be professional and there are certainly some who haven't been recently both on and off the pitch.

 

At the end of the day despite people wanting to blame one or the other its clearly a combination of the two. Some players in the squad are not good enough and the manager is clearly not playing a way to get the best out of the players he has.

[mrfahaji]

Uhh.. the same Burnley that literally only had 1 shot on target, 3 in total against us? I don't think we've ever had as few shots as that since coming back to the prem. We can be boring but we're never anti-football like half these PL teams.

 

You're right, it's definitely not our fault when all these evil teams out there play anti-football. How dare they come to St Mary's and make it difficult for us! They clearly had no intention of even trying to win the game. Oh wait, they did.

 

Funny, I always thought defending was part of the game as well, but now apparently it's "ANTI" football.

[Ultimatt]

2016/17 stats from Premierleague.com

 

Shots:

1. Liverpool 199

2. Man City 194

3. Spurs 191

4. Arsenal 184

=5. Man Utd 157

=5. Southampton 157

7. Chelsea 151

 

We're amongst the big 6 for shots taken.

 

Passes:

1. Man City 7,921

2. Arsenal 6,740

3. Liverpool 6,304

4. Spurs 6,187

5. Saints 5,876

6. Man Utd 5,623

7. Chelsea 5,524

 

We're amongst the big 6 for possession.

 

Through balls:

1. Arsenal 39

2. Man City 32

3. Man Utd 26

4. Spurs 18

5. Chelsea 17

6. Saints 15

11. Liverpool 10

 

We're amongst the big 6 for through balls.

 

Backwards passes:

1. Man City 1,257

2. Spurs 926

3. Arsenal 902

4. Liverpool 893

5. Saints 869

6. Man Utd 807

7. Chelsea 790

 

The same sort of percentage of our passes are backwards as the big 6. They control the ball and play similar tempo to us.

 

Corners:

1. Spurs 80

2. Saints 77

3. Man City 73

4. Man Utd 73

6. Arsenal 67

7. Liverpool 61

9. Chelsea 58

 

Crosses:

1. Saints 262

2. Spurs 261

3. Man Utd 253

=6. Liverpool 220

=6. Man City 220

17. Chelsea 193

20. Arsenal 155

 

We're putting a ton of balls into the box.

 

 

All those stats look great, but irrelevant because football is about 1 thing. It doesn't matter how beautiful you play, how many passes you made, how many men you beat if at the end you don't score. Our squad is technically solid but we fail at the 2 most important things: Finishing and Goalkeeping.

 

Goals:

1. Man City 38

2. Man Utd 23

3. Liverpool 21

=4. Arsenal 20

=4. Spurs 20

6. Chelsea 19

15. Saints 9

 

Shots per goal:

Man City 5.1

Man Utd 6.8

Chelsea 7.9

Arsenal 9.2

Liverpool 9.5

Spurs 9.6

Saints 17.4

 

Like with Puel, we're controlling games and usually creating more chances than our opponents, but they're clinical when it counts and we're anything but. Our squad is full of players who just haven't been big goal scorers throughout their careers.

It's not the manager fault. It's the players he's been given.

 

"Do I care if it's a walk or a hit? He gets on base." - Billy Beane

[Ultimatt]

You're right, it's definitely not our fault when all these evil teams out there play anti-football. How dare they come to St Mary's and make it difficult for us! They clearly had no intention of even trying to win the game. Oh wait, they did.

 

Funny, I always thought defending was part of the game as well, but now apparently it's "ANTI" football.

 

Now? The terms been around a long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-football. It's the modern day catenaccio.

[SKD]

I've no doubt that the players aren't playing to their full potential, similar to last year. However, it is the managers job to get the best out of the tools available, you cannot say that either Puel or MP have done that so far.

 

We have a lot of talent in the squad (easily good enough to finish comfortably top 10), we need someone to come in and get the best out of that. It's a lot easier to replace the manager / coaching staff than what it is 15 players.

[Cabrone]

The players haven't exactly covered themselves in glory but they are having to operate in a straightjacket that is anti attacking football. The blame for that must lie at MP's door.

 

Last Saturday was a good example. Burnley came for a point and set up their defensive stall ready to repel what they thought would be our attacks, we were the home team after all?

 

However as the game went on they realised that we were wedded to risk averse football and were no real threat so they put 2 up front and knocked us out.

 

Our manager just sat there, glued to his defensive mantra, no tactical changes, no attacking gamble with 2 up front - nothing. I could just about live with his ultra cautious mentality if it was getting results but it isn't is it?

 

The players are not completely free of blame but they are not that bad, certainly much better than many on here think (Gabbi should be sniffing around the Azzuri for heaven's sakes) but MP and\or others are strangling us to death.

 

I'd give the manager the benefit of the doubt if I thought he was trying things, attempting to work out the puzzle but this guy isn't. If plan A doesn't work then he's out of ideas.

[verlaine1979]

2016/17 stats from Premierleague.com

 

Shots:

1. Liverpool 199

2. Man City 194

3. Spurs 191

4. Arsenal 184

=5. Man Utd 157

=5. Southampton 157

7. Chelsea 151

 

We're amongst the big 6 for shots taken.

 

Passes:

1. Man City 7,921

2. Arsenal 6,740

3. Liverpool 6,304

4. Spurs 6,187

5. Saints 5,876

6. Man Utd 5,623

7. Chelsea 5,524

 

We're amongst the big 6 for possession.

 

Through balls:

1. Arsenal 39

2. Man City 32

3. Man Utd 26

4. Spurs 18

5. Chelsea 17

6. Saints 15

11. Liverpool 10

 

We're amongst the big 6 for through balls.

 

Backwards passes:

1. Man City 1,257

2. Spurs 926

3. Arsenal 902

4. Liverpool 893

5. Saints 869

6. Man Utd 807

7. Chelsea 790

 

The same sort of percentage of our passes are backwards as the big 6. They control the ball and play similar tempo to us.

 

Corners:

1. Spurs 80

2. Saints 77

3. Man City 73

4. Man Utd 73

6. Arsenal 67

7. Liverpool 61

9. Chelsea 58

 

Crosses:

1. Saints 262

2. Spurs 261

3. Man Utd 253

=6. Liverpool 220

=6. Man City 220

17. Chelsea 193

20. Arsenal 155

 

We're putting a ton of balls into the box.

 

 

All those stats look great, but irrelevant because football is about 1 thing. It doesn't matter how beautiful you play, how many passes you made, how many men you beat if at the end you don't score. Our squad is technically solid but we fail at the 2 most important things: Finishing and Goalkeeping.

 

Goals:

1. Man City 38

2. Man Utd 23

3. Liverpool 21

=4. Arsenal 20

=4. Spurs 20

6. Chelsea 19

15. Saints 9

 

Shots per goal:

Man City 5.1

Man Utd 6.8

Chelsea 7.9

Arsenal 9.2

Liverpool 9.5

Spurs 9.6

Saints 17.4

 

Like with Puel, we're controlling games and usually creating more chances than our opponents, but they're clinical when it counts and we're anything but. Our squad is full of players who just haven't been big goal scorers throughout their careers.

It's not the manager fault. It's the players he's been given.

 

"Do I care if it's a walk or a hit? He gets on base." - Billy Beane

 

These stats say nothing about the tempo of the game, and they say nothing about the quality of the shots on goal. When Man City attacked Arsenal yesterday, they had five attackers and midfielders swarming forward every single time, and that doesn't include the overlapping fullbacks or the likes of Fernandinho joining the attack. On the other hand, we're lucky if we have another player in the box at the same time as Gabbiadini when we're attacking.

[mrfahaji]

Now? The terms been around a long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-football. It's the modern day catenaccio.

 

Fair enough, but it's still a reasonable way to play the game. I think the term "anti-football", even if it is recognised, is unfair if it's just about teams organising themselves to be hard to beat. Defending is as much part of the game as attacking. Would I want to watch West Brom every week? No, but if teams routinely set up like that against us and take points home with them, we are the ones doing something wrong.

 

Had we spent Saturday peppering the Burnley goal with shots and been camped out in their area only to be denied by last-ditch blocks, poor finishing and some lucky deflections, I'd write it off as a unlucky result. But that wasn't the case at all. First half wasn't too bad, not scintillating but not bad. Second half was awful. Over the course of the game I'm not sure we created a single chance for a striker in the box? Even though Burnley only had one notable chance, it was still the best chance of the game, even if that owes to Vokes being good in the air, they still delivered the right ball at the right time.

 

Our best moment was when Bertrand played a one-two with Redmond and drilled it low across, but it was too close to the keeper. That rare time we got behind the defence and we nearly score. Funny that.

[beavis17]

The premier league, in general, is absolutely dire this year and is characterised by defensive anti-football. If you ignore the top 6 (wouldn't that be nice), the teams from Burnley down have scored an average of 0.9 goals per game. That is 70% of the teams in the league scoring less than a goal a game. The top 6 teams have scored as many goals as the rest of the teams added together. We are one of a number of teams in mid-table malaise, where the gap between top and bottom is getting wider. Even though there is more money than ever, the entertainment is being sucked out of football by scared owners and clubs who value premier league survival over all else. The fan does not matter, as amongst those 14 teams, there are enough muppets who will turn up week in, week out, paying to watch tripe served up by the vast majority of teams.

 

So, with Saints in that context, players or manager to blame, look wider. Look at the state of football. As TV deals get ever larger, the discrepancies in the league get ever greater, then all managers and players are just pawns to ensure a minimum of 17th place finish. The vision that we were selling a few years ago of aiming for the champions league is gone for good, or at least until the structure of the game changes, which can't happen soon enough. If we got rid of Pellegrino, we would just get another manager in whose remit is to keep us in the league. What makes me sad is that a few years ago, we played enjoyable football. We were fighting to be at the top of the best of the rest and compete on very close terms with those above us. Now we are a WBA, BHA, Huddersfield, Burnley, Stoke, Newcastle identikit.

 

To make a difference, we need both new players and a new manager. Yes, we tried to show ambition by holding onto VVD, but we didn't back that up with investment. Lemina has been great in his few games so far, but apart from that, in terms of making us an attacking team that is still trying to break the mould, we need 2 or 3 top class players. We can't sign the elite level, but we have historically done really well scouting either top level players from lower quality leagues, like Mane in Austria, J-Rod and Clyne from the Championship, or fringe players from the really big teams, like Bertrand or Romeu. Where is our scouting finding those players now.

 

And why would they come here, when we have become just like everyone else? Where is our differential? Same counts for managers. What is now making us stand out from the crowd? This is where we have massively missed a trick, because we were in a stand out position. That is down to mis-management at the top. That could be as a result of Kat trying to sell the club, but we need to get that leadership and direction back in a big way now. Step forward Mr Gao. Owning a premier league team in a moment like this needs true leadership, not a faceless figurehead.

 

Spot on.

[Ultimatt]

These stats say nothing about the tempo of the game, and they say nothing about the quality of the shots on goal. When Man City attacked Arsenal yesterday, they had five attackers and midfielders swarming forward every single time, and that doesn't include the overlapping fullbacks or the likes of Fernandinho joining the attack. On the other hand, we're lucky if we have another player in the box at the same time as Gabbiadini when we're attacking.

 

IMO they do speak to the quality of the shots. De Bruyne scores from outside the box on an angle. I swear Redmonds shot from that exact place probably 30 times the last year and hasn't scored once. Swap Gabbi/Redmond/Tadic/Davis for Aguero/Sane/Silva/KDB and we'd be top 4 comfortably. The difference in quality is outstanding. Players that know how to move, linkup, find a yard of space and place their shots.

[tajjuk]

Mane wasn't replaced.

Pelle wasn't replaced.

 

That is a huge amount of our pace, power and directness gone. It also meant our variety has gone with it.

 

To beat teams that are intent on stopping us playing and set up to mainly defend you either need to be so good at what you do they just can't live with it (i.e. Man City) or you need to have different types of threat that means they can't cover all the bases.

 

We are not good enough for the former and we lack the latter. Our whole team is set up to be a neat, 1-2 passes, play around the box possession team. We do this, but if it doesn't work and teams defend against it we have no variety.

 

We are slow on the counter.

We lack fast direct ball runners.

We lack aerial presence in the forward areas.

We lack a good long shooter.

We are not great at scoring from set pieces.

 

When we used to play averagely and teams held us up at home, often we could work balls off Pelle, go more direct, fight for some second balls, this often unsettled these sort of teams as their plans were designed to stop a passing and possession team. Mane could burst past a few players and create space.

 

We can't do that and we are now very predictable, the Boufal goal showed this as an example, the whole game WBA very comfortably set up to let us pass the ball around in front of them and they could easily deal with stuff in front of them and clear up passes into the box. When someone suddenly didn't pass the ball and started running at them with pace, at a moment where their shape wasn't spot on they were all over the place and had no idea what to do, they panicked.

 

But it simply does not happen often enough.

 

Then you add the other problem on top, the fact that the majority of our forward players are woefully out of form and have been for a while. which means even when our passing/possession football works we are often not scoring because players take that extra touch, don't shoot first time when they should do, pass sideways when a riskier/higher reward pass is available and just generally don't put their shots on target/into the corners.

 

And you finally add that our goalkeeper is giving away easy goals to the opposition.

 

IMO, Forster, Tadic, Redmond, Long, Davis, maybe even JWP need to go because they are either not good enough full stop or have been out of form too long to the point where you don't expect them to ever get it back.

 

Plus Betrand and VVD need to go because despite their clear very high ability they are going through the motions on the pitch and are doing just enough, so it would be better to cash in on them and re-invest.

 

When we buy we need to get the black box working and buy some variety in our attacking players. If we can get a good goalkeeper and decent left back in like Tierney or Shaw back say then our defence + DMs even without VVD is more than good enough for challenging top 6. We build on that and get some attacking mids/forwards with some pace, power and directness, plus a striker who has the ability to challenge in the air.

[benjii]

Fair enough, but it's still a reasonable way to play the game. I think the term "anti-football", even if it is recognised, is unfair if it's just about teams organising themselves to be hard to beat. Defending is as much part of the game as attacking. Would I want to watch West Brom every week? No, but if teams routinely set up like that against us and take points home with them, we are the ones doing something wrong.

 

Had we spent Saturday peppering the Burnley goal with shots and been camped out in their area only to be denied by last-ditch blocks, poor finishing and some lucky deflections, I'd write it off as a unlucky result. But that wasn't the case at all. First half wasn't too bad, not scintillating but not bad. Second half was awful. Over the course of the game I'm not sure we created a single chance for a striker in the box? Even though Burnley only had one notable chance, it was still the best chance of the game, even if that owes to Vokes being good in the air, they still delivered the right ball at the right time.

 

Our best moment was when Bertrand played a one-two with Redmond and drilled it low across, but it was too close to the keeper. That rare time we got behind the defence and we nearly score. Funny that.

 

That attack you mention highlights our problems though. We played ourselves into a great position and Bertrand wasted it with a ****-poor pass straight to their goalie.

[Whitey Grandad]

I've no doubt that the players aren't playing to their full potential, similar to last year. However, it is the managers job to get the best out of the tools available, you cannot say that either Puel or MP have done that so far.

 

We have a lot of talent in the squad (easily good enough to finish comfortably top 10), we need someone to come in and get the best out of that. It's a lot easier to replace the manager / coaching staff than what it is 15 players.

 

Steady on there... our players may not be up to much but calling them tools is going a bit far.

[mrfahaji]

That attack you mention highlights our problems though. We played ourselves into a great position and Bertrand wasted it with a ****-poor pass straight to their goalie.

 

True, but because we do that so infrequently I'm not sure how reliably you can say "that points to our problem". If we kept getting to the byline and kept messing up the crosses, or if we kept putting the ball into good areas and no-one was attacking it, that would clearly be the issue. But we don't do it enough.

[Wade Garrett]

Romeu is on record saying how much enjoyed playing for Puel. It's a mistake to think an entire squad all think the same.

 

The flip side of your arguement is the players are at fault. They are paid a lot of money to do the best they can on the pitch. They don't have to like the tactics, team selection or manager they do do have to be professional and there are certainly some who haven't been recently both on and off the pitch.

 

At the end of the day despite people wanting to blame one or the other its clearly a combination of the two. Some players in the squad are not good enough and the manager is clearly not playing a way to get the best out of the players he has.

 

He was probably the only player that did, and is already complaining about playing a similar role for MP.

 

As for the rest of your post, nutshell.

[verlaine1979]

IMO they do speak to the quality of the shots. De Bruyne scores from outside the box on an angle. I swear Redmonds shot from that exact place probably 30 times the last year and hasn't scored once. Swap Gabbi/Redmond/Tadic/Davis for Aguero/Sane/Silva/KDB and we'd be top 4 comfortably. The difference in quality is outstanding. Players that know how to move, linkup, find a yard of space and place their shots.

 

De Bruyne scored from the edge of the box at an angle after an incredibly quick 1-2 with Fernandinho worked him an angle where he only had the keeper to beat (still a very good finish from there obvs). Most of Redmond's speculative shots have involved either trying to curl it round a defender and the keeper from outside the area, or trying to hit it through a crowded box. I'm not disputing that most of City's players are vastly more accomplished than ours in all phases of play, but what I'd stand by is that they are coached to always look for the forward pass and to attack & support in numbers. Those are basic tactical decisions that you can follow regardless of the quality of your individual players, and as Romeu said in his interview at the weekend, Pellegrino seems to favour an approach that prioritises marking open opponents for the counter attack, rather than committing to the attack at pace ourselves.