Claude Puel

[TWar]

6 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Interesting. When you were praising Benitez being “impressed by the job he was doing” you put the poor performances and results down to being without some of his better players. 
 

But when it’s Puel he “must have been playing with 10” when his best players were missing and was crap that’s why he was sacked 

Both were sacked. One was doing an impressive job without their better players. The other was just crap that’s why he was sacked

great logic 

I think Benitez did well to improve certain players like Townsend, Gordon, and Gray with a bang average team missing it's best players.

I think Puel made multiple players worse and didn't improve a single player from a team which actually wasn't too bad if we had a competent manager who knew how to build a side.

Also Benitez is a champions league winning legend of the game and Puel is a flop who kept flopping well after he left us.

The logic is fine, good managers improve players, Puel did not. You just don't seem to be able to follow it. Tell you what, give one example of a player Puel made better? Ralph has about 10, Koeman similarly, even Benitez got a tune out of a few Everton players. Who does Puel have?

He certainly had stars like Tadic playing at a miles lower standard.

Edited 5 March, 2022 by TWar

[StrangelyBrown]

4 minutes ago, TWar said:

I'll say, his win % seemed largely drop as his career continues (with the exception of Lille). Doubt he gets another job any time soon:

I wonder if there is a similar pattern for other similarly minded managers (mourinho, benitez, ...)? I suspect this has more to do with football moving on and puels style of play becoming out dated.

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, TWar said:

I think Benitez did well to improve certain players like Townsend, Gordon, and Gray with a bang average team missing it's best players.

I think Puel made multiple players worse and didn't improve a single player from a team which actually wasn't too bad if we had a competent manager who knew how to build a side.

Also Benitez is a champions league winning legend of the game and Puel is a flop who kept flopping well after he left us.

The logic is fine, good managers improve players, Puel did not. You just don't seem to be able to follow it. Tell you what, give one example of a player Puel made better? Ralph has about 10, Koeman similarly, even Benitez got a tune out of a few Everton players. Who does Puel have?

He certainly had stars like Tadic playing at a miles lower standard.

Surely that just highlights what a poor job he did at Everton taking them to a relegation battle and what a good job Puel did taking a team shorn of its two leading goal scorers and two best centre halves to eighth and a cup final 

[TWar]

1 minute ago, StrangelyBrown said:

I wonder if there is a similar pattern for other similarly minded managers (mourinho, benitez, ...)? I suspect this has more to do with football moving on and puels style of play becoming out dated.

 

Benitez moves around a bit, had underated spells at Chelsea and Napoli. His last couple of jobs were pretty poor, but they were not good sides tbh.

Mou is just quite underrated. He has his peaks and troughs, he actually on paper did very well at united. Fans are just quite entitled.

[TWar]

5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Surely that just highlights what a poor job he did at Everton taking them to a relegation battle and what a good job Puel did taking a team shorn of its two leading goal scorers and two best centre halves to eighth and a cup final 

Shows he made a poor career decision by taking on the job of a club in freefall. Less of a condemnation of his manageerial skill and more of his decision making. Admire his ambition though of taking on a challenge and also seemed to have been personally motivated by wanting to move back to the liverpool area.

Edited 5 March, 2022 by TWar

[Turkish]

Just now, TWar said:

Shows he made a poor career decision by taking on the job of a club in freefall. Less of a condemnation of his manageerial skill and more of his decision making. Admire his ambition though of taking on a challenge and also seemed to have been motivated by wanting to move back to the liverpool area.

Which he failed at despite being a “champions league winning legend of the game”. 

You seem to have a bit of a hardon for Benitez it’s weird. 
 

[TWar]

Just now, Turkish said:

Which he failed at despite being a “champions league winning legend of the game”. 

You seem to have a bit of a hardon for Benitez it’s weird. 
 

Well yeah, his team sucked without DCL and Richarlison. Puel's didn't. He was just a bad manager.

[Turkish]

Just now, TWar said:

Well yeah, his team sucked without DCL and Richarlison. Puel's didn't. He was just a bad manager.

So Benitez must have been playing with 9 when they were out, right?

[TWar]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

So Benitez must have been playing with 9 when they were out, right?

Honestly if you actually think Claude Puel is anywhere near the level of manager Benitez is, I don't know what to tell you. Just look at what they have achieved.

[Turkish]

14 minutes ago, TWar said:

Honestly if you actually think Claude Puel is anywhere near the level of manager Benitez is, I don't know what to tell you. Just look at what they have achieved.

I never said he was Benitez is clearly a far better manager who has achieved more. All your lauding about how great he is does is highlight what a crap job he did at Everton. Something you put down to being without key players.

Yet when it’s pointed out the circumstances Puel had to work on you point to goals stats, claim when key players were missing “he must had been playing with ten” bang it n about how a previous manager improved players who had left by the time he joined  and say he’s been a flop throughout his career and sacked because he was crap

Your application of logic is completely inconsistent 
 

Edited 5 March, 2022 by Turkish

[Dman]

On 05/03/2022 at 12:22, TWar said:

- When they both joined Boufal had a lot more hype than Mane and was from a stronger league.

 

Isn’t this the exact same logic that got your prediction or Armstrong vs Broja so incredibly incorrect? 
 

One whom never believes they are wrong, will never learn. 

[Jonnyboy]

Would Puel even be a debate if we'd won the cup final? 

[vectraman]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

IIRC it turned pretty toxic in his final home games and there may have been some chanting against him.

Yeah it did. Last five home games all goalless for Saints with turgid possession for possessions sake football. 
Those saying he is a lost messiah have forgotten how boring the football at home was….

Especially playing for a 0-0 at home with the might Hapoel. Which is why the amazing European adventure ended. 

Leicester also found him, err, less than adequate and he got sacked there too. So with a better squad he also failed to meet expectations…..

 

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

19 minutes ago, vectraman said:

Those saying he is a lost messiah have forgotten how boring the football at home was.

 

 

Absolutely nobody has said he’s a lost messiah, you just made that up. All people are pointing out is that he lost his job having had a better season than Ralph has. If Ralph got us to 8th and a final, some of his fan club would be wanting a statue erected. I’ve seen far far worse performances under Ralph than I ever saw under Claude. 

 

The facts are in one season he became one of three men to take us to a cup final, finished higher than all but a handful of our managers and defeated probably the biggest European team we’ve ever beaten. One season….He deserved another one, I’m not sure Ralph does. 

Edited 8 May, 2022 by Lord Duckhunter

[Matthew Le God]

2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 The facts are in one season he became one of three men to take us to a cup final

I'm guessing you mean... 1976, 1979, 2003 and 2017.

But what about the 1900, 1902, 1992 and 2010 finals (plus a few others)? 🤔

[Lord Duckhunter]

7 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

I'm guessing you mean... 1976, 1979, 2003 and 2017.

But what about the 1900, 1902, 1992 and 2010 finals (plus a few others)? 🤔

1992 & 2010 were noddy competitions. 
 

But yeah, I should have written “in living memory”.  

[Lighthouse]

13 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Absolutely nobody has said he’s a lost messiah, you just made that up. All people are pointing out is that he lost his job having had a better season than Ralph has. If Ralph got us to 8th and a final, some of his fan club would be wanting a statue erected. I’ve seen far far worse performances under Ralph than I ever saw under Claude. 

Hypothetically, how many points is a CB pairing of Fonte and VVD worth to any given team, relative to Salisu and Bednarek, over the course of a season?

13 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

defeated probably the biggest European team we’ve ever beaten

No, the biggest European NAME we've ever beaten (If you ignore all the British ones).

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

21 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

He deserved another one, I’m not sure Ralph does

You are correct, he did deserve another season. I'm absolutely sure Ralph does not.

[Lord Duckhunter]

6 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Hypothetically, how many points is a CB pairing of Fonte and VVD worth to any given team, relative to Salisu and Bednarek, over the course of a season?

Probably more points than Yoshida & Stephens, who were the pairing when the moaners wanted to watch the Southampton Globe trotters. 

Edited 8 May, 2022 by Lord Duckhunter

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Probably more points than Yoshida & Stephens,  who were the  pairing when the moaners wanted to watch the Southampton  Globe trotters. 

That's not really an answer but personally I'd have said a solid 12-15 points, so 6-8 over half a season. Knock that off and Puel is on 38-40 points.

[Dark Munster]

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/topic/54858-claude-puel/

Anyway, back to Ralph ...

[Mr X]

I'm not suggesting puel is the answer but at least we were hard to beat under him.... His win rate was also better...... Weird that the club pulled the trigger on him when I think we'd finished around 8th...when RH has had way more disaster games and is still here 

[Ted Bates Statue]

11 minutes ago, Mr X said:

I'm not suggesting puel is the answer but at least we were hard to beat under him.... His win rate was also better...... Weird that the club pulled the trigger on him when I think we'd finished around 8th...when RH has had way more disaster games and is still here 

Funnily enough, if you take their league results only, RH and CP happen to have a similar win percentage with RH's still being slightly better. Of course, there is plenty of time yet for Hasenhuttl's percentage to become even worse. 

With hindsight I think the club recognise that aside from Ings and for a short spell, Gabbiadini, we have lacked a reliable goalscorer, and that has helped RH stay in contrast to CP's sacking.

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

That's not really an answer but personally I'd have said a solid 12-15 points, so 6-8 over half a season. Knock that off and Puel is on 38-40 points.

How many points  are you deducting Koeman for having VvD, Mane, Jose Fonte & Pelle? 

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

That's not really an answer but personally I'd have said a solid 12-15 points, so 6-8 over half a season. Knock that off and Puel is on 38-40 points.

Ridiculous logic. How about we takes Ings goals out of saints last two season then? Oh we won’t do that because it doesn’t suit the Ralph is god narrative 

[Lord Duckhunter]

I’ve deducted Lawrie a few dozen points for having Shilts, KK, Bally and Steve Williams. Turns out he wasn’t much better than Branfoot. 

[Lighthouse]

Excellent, I’m glad you guys agree with me; if you take away vastly superior players you will score fewer points irrespective of the manager.

[Turkish]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

Excellent, I’m glad you guys agree with me; if you take away vastly superior players you will score fewer points irrespective of the manager.

Yep but you can’t cherry pick and say Puel would only have got this without His best players but then praise Ralph but keep his best players In. I also notice you never said how many would Puel have got if he’d still had Mane and Pelle who got 30 odd goals between them the previous season, but again we can adjust this reason to suit one’s agenda can’t we.

[AlexLaw76]

Alan ball is getting a big negative for having the Le Tiss and Ekelund combo.

on the flip side, does that mean Arey was really a brilliant manager for us, but was handicapped with Olivier Bernard and Callum Davenport?

The big question here, was Alex Ferguson just a big fraud with lots of money? 

Edited 8 May, 2022 by AlexLaw76

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

Yep but you can’t cherry pick and say Puel would only have got this without His best players but then praise Ralph but keep his best players In. I also notice you never said how many would Puel have got if he’d still had Mane and Pelle who got 30 odd goals between them the previous season, but again we can adjust this reason to suit one’s agenda can’t we.

I have no agenda other than to say I don’t believe Ralph to be the main problem and I think that to call Puel better because he scored 6 more points is a fallacy. As dreadful as many of Ralph’s teams have been, I’ve never had the impression he was trying to play for a 0-0 at home to Stoke, Bournemouth, Hull or Be’er Sheva.

 

I have no idea how well Claude or Ralph would do with Koeman’s team, or how the latter would get on managing this shower of sh*te. All I can say really is that Ralph has done what we asked him to do for four seasons, given our non-existent budget and that I was bored stupid watching the majority of Puel’s teams, as were Leicester and probably St Etienne.

[MAY-Z]

17 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Yep but you can’t cherry pick and say Puel would only have got this without His best players but then praise Ralph but keep his best players In. I also notice you never said how many would Puel have got if he’d still had Mane and Pelle who got 30 odd goals between them the previous season, but again we can adjust this reason to suit one’s agenda can’t we.

And how would Ralph have gone if JWP free kick taking wasnt as elite as it is now, how would Ralph go if had to play Soares at RB instead of KWP/Tino

 

amd goodness knows how many 9-0 Ralph would concede with Stephens and yoshida as the cb pairing

 

 

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, MAY-Z said:

And how would Ralph have gone if JWP free kick taking wasnt as elite as it is now, how would Ralph go if had to play Soares at RB instead of KWP/Tino

 

amd goodness knows how many 9-0 Ralph would concede with Stephens and yoshida as the cb pairing

 

 

I saw today we are third highest goal scorers from dead balls, so again a valid point. It’s easy this but what if game, isn’t it.

[egg]

15 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I have no agenda other than to say I don’t believe Ralph to be the main problem and I think that to call Puel better because he scored 6 more points is a fallacy. As dreadful as many of Ralph’s teams have been, I’ve never had the impression he was trying to play for a 0-0 at home to Stoke, Bournemouth, Hull or Be’er Sheva.

 

I have no idea how well Claude or Ralph would do with Koeman’s team, or how the latter would get on managing this shower of sh*te. All I can say really is that Ralph has done what we asked him to do for four seasons, given our non-existent budget and that I was bored stupid watching the majority of Puel’s teams, as were Leicester and probably St Etienne.

What do you think Ralph will do next season that he hasn't been able to do these last few couple of months? For me, he's taken us as far as he can take us.

[austsaint]

3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Absolutely nobody has said he’s a lost messiah, you just made that up. All people are pointing out is that he lost his job having had a better season than Ralph has. If Ralph got us to 8th and a final, some of his fan club would be wanting a statue erected. I’ve seen far far worse performances under Ralph than I ever saw under Claude. 

 

The facts are in one season he became one of three men to take us to a cup final, finished higher than all but a handful of our managers and defeated probably the biggest European team we’ve ever beaten. One season….He deserved another one, I’m not sure Ralph does. 

Hard to argue with that.   One of the things that has kept Ralph's stocks afloat, at both fan and board level, has been the nice guy, big personality, Klopp of the Alps image.    By contrast, Puel's introverted, dour presentation, matched by a conservative game style, made him vulnerable to the chop once the fans turned on him.   At any objective comparison of tactical nous, team structure, game management, squeaky bum end-of-season moments, Puel measures up!

Now that game day supporters have voiced the discontent which has rightly been on display here for quite a while, it's going to be interesting to see what the Board and new ownership make of it.