SaintJackoInHurworth Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 I notice that for the last few minutes of the Palace game Pellegrino opted not just to bring on Van Dijk but to keep Hoedt and Yoshida on the pitch too. Does this give a clue as to where we might see our tactics change in coming weeks? Or at least might it be a clue as to what Pellegrino might try out against Man United next week? What would people think if we played five at the back? And if we did that how would the team be structured? With Lemina playing so well on Saturday does Romeu's place come under threat or does it free up the full backs to play a more attacking role resulting in one of the wide players being dropped and the other moving into the middle? I wonder whether we might see something like this... ..............................................Forster................................................ ......................Hoedt...............Van Dijk...............Yoshida..................... Cedric...................................................................................Bertrand ..................................Romeu..............Lemina.................................... ............................Davis.............................Tadic................................ ..........................................Gabbiadini............................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimatt Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 I've been expecting us to go 3 at the back since the window shut. We have 6 CBs on the books with 4 of them being worthy starters at a lot of clubs. Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazza Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 With the centre halves we've got we should definitely be using a 3-5-2 formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintrich Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 Pellegrino said he brought VVD on because he knew Palace would play long ball for the last few minutes, I don't think it's much of an indicator that we are going to switch formations. That's not to say we won't do it though - after all we do have lots of capable players in that position now. For me we will only switch to that as a regular formation if the manager believes we can get more out of our attacking players - the players you've suggested make us look even less likely to score goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 Didn't we experiment with 5 at the back against Wolves were frankly it was horrible with players looking like fish out of water. It's not out of the realms of possibility but to play it well it would probably take some serious training ground drilling for a few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_SFC Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 Everton played 5 at the back against United yesterday and in large it worked well for the majority of the game (we have better defensive players than them too) I'd like us to try it out away against the bigger sides, looks a bit defensive to be playing it regularly though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wurzel Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 I notice that for the last few minutes of the Palace game Pellegrino opted not just to bring on Van Dijk but to keep Hoedt and Yoshida on the pitch too. Does this give a clue as to where we might see our tactics change in coming weeks? Or at least might it be a clue as to what Pellegrino might try out against Man United next week? What would people think if we played five at the back? And if we did that how would the team be structured? With Lemina playing so well on Saturday does Romeu's place come under threat or does it free up the full backs to play a more attacking role resulting in one of the wide players being dropped and the other moving into the middle? I wonder whether we might see something like this... ..............................................Forster................................................ ......................Hoedt...............Van Dijk...............Yoshida..................... Cedric...................................................................................Bertrand ..................................Romeu..............Lemina.................................... ............................Davis.............................Tadic................................ ..........................................Gabbiadini............................................... I'd love to see us give it a go. Back 5 with Romeu and Lemina in front of it isn't going to concede much, which is handy when we don't score many. As it gives the full backs license to attack down the wings even more I'd go for your back 8 then Davis /JWP central with Gabi AND Austin ahead of him. Shouldn't leave us too short in midfield, if RB goes on a run CS covers the extra midfield and vice-versa. 2 up front gives the options of target man CA and a hard to mark Gabi making intelligent runs all over the place. Tadic, Boufal, Redmond wouldn't be too happy but it seems time is right to try something fresh, and they've all had enough chances to stamp their authority on a game with infrequent success We'd either get thrashed or start looking like top 6 contenders again. Either way it would be entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 ..............................................Forster................................................ ......................Hoedt...............Van Dijk...............Yoshida..................... Cedric...................................................................................Bertrand ..................................Romeu..............Lemina.................................... ............................Davis.............................Tadic................................ ..........................................Gabbiadini............................................... If we do, Hoedt would likely be on the left. Didn't we experiment with 5 at the back against Wolves were frankly it was horrible with players looking like fish out of water. It was poor vs Wolves, but it was also quite different from our 1st choice team. Our best players might make it work as an alternative system. After the Wolves game Pellegrino did say he'd use it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo_ARG Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 If we were to do this I would rather see Stephens ahead of Yoshida. Yoshi is a good tackler granted, but he isn't strong enough. He gets bullied by stronger strikers too frecuently. Stephens is better in the air and needs minutes to develop. Still, I don't really see this as a good option given that both Cedric and Bertrand have been, unlike other seasons, better at defendending than going forward. Especially Cedric, he is a totally different player from the one that arrived a few years ago. So I don't see the benefit of playing them in more advanced positions right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 A slight variation on that for me if we are going to play 3 at the back against United and the other big clubs. Might as well play Hoedt on the left of the back three as he is left footed. And with Long and Austin upfront we can play a bit more direct and use the full backs to cross the ball in to the box. It's also more or less the way we played the 3-5-2 under Koeman against the big clubs. ..............................................Forster............................................... .....................Yoshida.................Van Dijk...............Hoedt.................... Cedric...................................................................................Bertrand ..................................Romeu..............Lemina.................................... ..............................................Davis............................................... .............................Long........................ Austin............................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 If we were to do this I would rather see Stephens ahead of Yoshida. Yoshi is a good tackler granted, but he isn't strong enough. He gets bullied by stronger strikers too frecuently. Stephens is better in the air and needs minutes to develop. Still, I don't really see this as a good option given that both Cedric and Bertrand have been, unlike other seasons, better at defendending than going forward. Especially Cedric, he is a totally different player from the one that arrived a few years ago. So I don't see the benefit of playing them in more advanced positions right now. If they're better at defending now, isn't that a good reason to push them up a little bit and make attacking easier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 If we were to do this I would rather see Stephens ahead of Yoshida. Yoshi is a good tackler granted, but he isn't strong enough. He gets bullied by stronger strikers too frecuently. Stephens is better in the air and needs minutes to develop. Still, I don't really see this as a good option given that both Cedric and Bertrand have been, unlike other seasons, better at defendending than going forward. Especially Cedric, he is a totally different player from the one that arrived a few years ago. So I don't see the benefit of playing them in more advanced positions right now. This statement makes me wonder if you've watched either of them play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKD Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 If we are going 3 at the back, I'd rather we adapt the same as Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham and go 3-4-3 -MY--VVD--WH- CS-----------RB ----ML--OR----- MG-----------SB (Boufal over Tadic as IMO he'll offer more cutting in onto his right foot and will offer more of a goal threat) -------SL------ (Long over Austin as he'll put pressure on the opposition defense, run the channels and be interchangeable with Gabbi and Boufal). For me, 3-5-2 offers very little width and is very similar to the diamond. If we're going 3-5-2 I think you'd have to play Gabbi and Long who split out wide with Boufal or Tadic in behind them in a 'false 9' role. -MY--VVD--WH- CS------------RB -----ML--OR----- -------SB-------- ----MG----SL---- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo_ARG Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 This statement makes me wonder if you've watched either of them play? How difficult it is to say "I don't agree"? Sorry for the quality, here is an example from last game. Benteke sending Yoshida to fly. I understand he is a fan favourite. But he is a quality sub. Not a starter for a team who wants to make the top 6. https://youtu.be/fRAbrKnBn64?t=4m57s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamplemousse Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 It's clear the current tactics aren't working at all. Yes we won, but we didn't really create that many clear cut chances. Pellegrino isn't a fool and knows something has to change. 3-5-2 could well be the tactic that achieves positive changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Saint Posted 18 September, 2017 Share Posted 18 September, 2017 Davis problem. You play a back 5, Romeu and Lemina then it's horribly defensive to play Davis as well. Think with a 5 we'd need 3 from Boufal, Tadic, Long, Gabbiadini, Redmond to start. I would skip playing the Christmas twins (always giving the bloody ball away). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKsaint Posted 19 September, 2017 Share Posted 19 September, 2017 If we Play back 5, I assume we play counter-attack. If so, we need pace from Long. There is no other one in our teams can run fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 19 September, 2017 Share Posted 19 September, 2017 If we Play back 5, I assume we play counter-attack. If so, we need pace from Long. There is no other one in our teams can run fast. Why would you assume we play to counter? That's not how most 3-at-the-back teams do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 19 September, 2017 Share Posted 19 September, 2017 (edited) I like 3 at the back in a 3-5-2 because you can get two players up top without being dominated in midfield. We defo have the full backs to play it, & Long with Gabby looks a decent combination imo. The only doubt for me would be Hoedt in the wider centre back role. I haven't seen enough of him, but what I have I'm not convinced he's quick enough if sides get down the sides of us. Historically the middle of the 3 has been the ball player, stepping into midfield, but the last couple of years the wider centre halves have started to be the ones that push on. VvD & Yoshida are certainly quick enough to play the wider roles, so maybe Hoedt could play down the middle. Watching Spurs yesterday it appeared that Vertonghen & Toby were pushing on whilst Sánchez sat in the middle. With OR & Lemina able to get back in quickly VvD & Yoshida could become quite dangerous stepping into midfield. Although not a brilliant 10, Davo's the only one I'd trust to play that role & make it a 5 when they have the ball. The only issue is us becoming 5 at the back, Particularly at home. It really needs to be a 3 because if your full backs are pushed back to play in a normal full back position, we will end up being ultra defensive & end up struggling to get out of our half. Personally I like the system, whether a 3-5-2 or a 3-4-3, but do feel that it needs work and plenty of drilling on the training pitch. Apart from a decent 10, and provided Hoedt is up to it, we have the players to play it. Even Stephens could fit into that ok. Prefer 3-5-2 for us, because a 3-4-3 isn't much different from the diamond and we couldn't score then. Not wishing to go all Merrington on everybody but let's try 2 up front. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited 19 September, 2017 by Lord Duckhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 19 September, 2017 Share Posted 19 September, 2017 (edited) How difficult it is to say "I don't agree"? Sorry for the quality, here is an example from last game. Benteke sending Yoshida to fly. I understand he is a fan favourite. But he is a quality sub. Not a starter for a team who wants to make the top 6. You're saying Yoshida isn't good enough for top 6 but you want to play Jack Stephens. Weird https://youtu.be/fRAbrKnBn64?t=4m57s He's clearly better than Stephens will ever be and you've said Stephens is better than him in the air which, again, is clearly nonsense. Whatever you think of Yoshida, there's no reason to prefer Stephens. Edited 19 September, 2017 by benjii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo_ARG Posted 19 September, 2017 Share Posted 19 September, 2017 He's clearly better than Stephens will ever be and you've said Stephens is better than him in the air which, again, is clearly nonsense. Whatever you think of Yoshida, there's no reason to prefer Stephens. I'm not biased towards any of them, I like them both. I like Maya for his attitude. And he is a great athlete. But when he jumps with a bigger defender he can be pushed away. One thing is the jumping reach, other is the body strengh. When it is a physical battle well, I think Jack is stronger. Maya's biggest asset is his speed and tackling ability, he does much better against quick and small strikers than those who are strong. That is why Koeman played him as a LB. Stephens weakness I think is his lack of pace. Now Stephens is 23, Yoshida 29. I think given the progression of Jack's career he is on pace to become much better than Yoshida if he is given playing time. Playing alongside Virgil and Wesley would be so good for his development. I haven't seen him look out of place playing in the best league of the world and has played an FA cup final in wich again, he surprised me with his poise when I have thought it would have been better to go with Caceres because of his experiencie. So, I think you should be more optimist with the lad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 19 September, 2017 Share Posted 19 September, 2017 He's clearly better than Stephens will ever be and you've said Stephens is better than him in the air which, again, is clearly nonsense. Whatever you think of Yoshida, there's no reason to prefer Stephens. You are entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 19 September, 2017 Share Posted 19 September, 2017 You are entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong. Every manager we have ever had seems to agree with me as well, FWIW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfahaji Posted 19 September, 2017 Share Posted 19 September, 2017 If we were to do this I would rather see Stephens ahead of Yoshida. Yoshi is a good tackler granted, but he isn't strong enough. He gets bullied by stronger strikers too frecuently. Stephens is better in the air and needs minutes to develop. Still, I don't really see this as a good option given that both Cedric and Bertrand have been, unlike other seasons, better at defendending than going forward. Especially Cedric, he is a totally different player from the one that arrived a few years ago. So I don't see the benefit of playing them in more advanced positions right now. Have to agree with benjii on this - Yoshida isn't fantastic in the air but he's a darned sight better than Stephens - in fact, while Stephens lacks a little speed (and Yoshi is quick), I'd see his aerial ability as his glaring weakness. You say about him playing well in the Cup final, but while he was 'accomplished', his poor positioning may have cost us the game. As for that video to 'demonstrate' Yoshida's weakness, it seemed pretty clear to me that it was a foul, but even if it wasn't, I'm doubtful Stephens would have fared any better going shoulder to shoulder with Benteke. Of course it's a totally valid opinion that being younger, he has more room to improve and therefore should be given as much time as possible (I don't agree with benjii that he will categorically never be better than Yoshida), but to claim what you have above seem absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baird of the land Posted 19 September, 2017 Share Posted 19 September, 2017 Didn't we experiment with 5 at the back against Wolves were frankly it was horrible with players looking like fish out of water. It's not out of the realms of possibility but to play it well it would probably take some serious training ground drilling for a few weeks. Yeah i really doubt we've got the dynamic players to be able to play with 5 at the back based on the Wolves display where we struggled to get out of our own half much of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 19 September, 2017 Share Posted 19 September, 2017 Yeah i really doubt we've got the dynamic players to be able to play with 5 at the back based on the Wolves display where we struggled to get out of our own half much of the time. We didn't use our first choice team vs Wolves. I don't see why our best side couldn't get three at the back to work. These 8 players didn't start the game... Cedric van Dijk Bertrand Hoedt Davis Gabbiadini Redmond Lemina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKD Posted 19 September, 2017 Share Posted 19 September, 2017 I'm not biased towards any of them, I like them both. I like Maya for his attitude. And he is a great athlete. But when he jumps with a bigger defender he can be pushed away. One thing is the jumping reach, other is the body strengh. When it is a physical battle well, I think Jack is stronger. Maya's biggest asset is his speed and tackling ability, he does much better against quick and small strikers than those who are strong. That is why Koeman played him as a LB. Stephens weakness I think is his lack of pace. Now Stephens is 23, Yoshida 29. I think given the progression of Jack's career he is on pace to become much better than Yoshida if he is given playing time. Playing alongside Virgil and Wesley would be so good for his development. I haven't seen him look out of place playing in the best league of the world and has played an FA cup final in wich again, he surprised me with his poise when I have thought it would have been better to go with Caceres because of his experiencie. So, I think you should be more optimist with the lad. I'm not sure how many of our games you've watched, but from the above it would suggest not a lot. 1) Yoshida is a much better defender than Stephens. Yoshida is better in the air and has much more ability to mark his man. 2) Stephens weakness is not lack of pace. He's actually pretty good in 1-1 situations, even if he isn't blessed with the pace of Yoshida or VvD. His weakness is his inability to mark, positioning isn't great (he doesn't have the pace to make up that extra yard or 2) and he's pretty poor in the air. For me, he's very good on the ball and is pretty good in a tackle. 3) Ultimately he cost us the game in the EFL cup final. He switched off and left their best player to have a free header from 6 yards. He clearly has something about him and impressed me when he came in and was right to be given the chance, however for the time being, 4th choice is about right for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 19 September, 2017 Share Posted 19 September, 2017 Thanks guys. I knew I was right but it's still good to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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