England Player Selection & Academy

[Dusic]

I think this time we have Bertrand in the senior squad and Vokins in the U18's.

 

That must be the lowest for a number of years across the age groups combined. A couple of years ago we probably had 10 involved at all levels with England and key players in most of the younger age groups.

 

Of course JWP and Redmond are no longer eligible for the U21s but it shows how there is a gap of talent coming through the academy ranks with only Vokins involved. Some other PL sides have 10 or more players between U17 and U21 level alone.

 

With relegation from the U23 league last season and a couple of poor seasons at U18 level it is hardly a suprise but nonetheless not a great look for a club that puts so much emphasis on its Academy.

 

From those with more knowledge, are some of the younger age groups more promising?

[Pilchards]

Great topic.

England U18's won the World Cup and not one Saints player was in the squad.

Thats not right?

I lay the blame with a couple of things and that is the coaches reshuffle too much and trying to create a role for Jaidi who does not cut it as a coach.

[Shance]

I just don't think our academy is quite as amazing as some people think. It's a good solid academy, that's it.

 

The arrogance of some people putting it up their with some of the best in the world is laughable.

[mrfahaji]

I just don't think our academy is quite as amazing as some people think. It's a good solid academy, that's it.

 

The arrogance of some people putting it up their with some of the best in the world is laughable.

 

Or maybe - and I'm saying this is what I think, just a theory - coaches and academies can only do so much, so an academy can only be 'world class' through its facilities. Perhaps a bigger factor in producing talent is finding it in the first place, in which case it's more to do with scouting than coaching.

[benjii]

I think Sims would be in his age group if fit.

[S-Clarke]

Academy output will fluctuate over years. At the moment Everton have a very impressive crop of young players on their way up, but there's still no guarantee any of those will make it at a higher level. From what I can tell, we've had to fill out the academy squads in the last couple of years with external purchases - which shows that the conveyor belt hasn't really been there for these year groups. This would probably coincide with the time we were in administration and this particular age group had very little input.

 

The fact is that we have invested a lot into the academy and the structure around it, this will reap rewards over time - but you have to be patient, as it will be a fair few years until we see the benefit of this.

[Saint86]

Great topic.

England U18's won the World Cup and not one Saints player was in the squad.

Thats not right?

I lay the blame with a couple of things and that is the coaches reshuffle too much and trying to create a role for Jaidi who does not cut it as a coach.

 

Not really. For a few years it was prodigious. But its in a lull at the moment. That is natural. Or do you see 10 Messi's at barca (one for each year of the last decade).

[Nordic Saint]

Paul Mitchell > Ross Wilson.

 

Recruitment at all levels has deteriorated badly in the last couple of years. Mitchell, not Reed, was the real brains behind our success.

[Nordic Saint]

And I don't think the Academy has ever really recovered from the sacking of Dodd and Williams.

[S-Clarke]

Paul Mitchell > Ross Wilson.

 

Recruitment at all levels has deteriorated badly in the last couple of years. Mitchell, not Reed, was the real brains behind our success.

 

You wouldn't see the (good or bad) results of that in such a short window in an academy structure, so no, that's not it.

[doddisalegend]

Academy output will fluctuate over years. At the moment Everton have a very impressive crop of young players on their way up, but there's still no guarantee any of those will make it at a higher level. From what I can tell, we've had to fill out the academy squads in the last couple of years with external purchases - which shows that the conveyor belt hasn't really been there for these year groups. This would probably coincide with the time we were in administration and this particular age group had very little input.

 

 

 

The fact is that we have invested a lot into the academy and the structure around it, this will reap rewards over time - but you have to be patient, as it will be a fair few years until we see the benefit of this.

 

 

Exactly no academy churns out star after star year in year out.

 

At least some of our youngsters actually turn out for the club. It will be interesting to see how many of the young England players who did well this summer actually turn out for their club sides especially those who play for the likes of Chelsea and Man City.

[S-Clarke]

Exactly no academy churns out star after star year in year out.

 

At least some of our youngsters actually turn out for the club. It will be interesting to see how many of the young England players who did well this summer actually turn out for their club sides especially those who play for the likes of Chelsea and Man City.

 

They're probably all out on loan......

[wild-saint]

Out of interest who are the top 3 academies in the country. Not based on the current crop but over a period of say 10 years? Ie consistency

[Dusic]

I think Sims would be in his age group if fit.

He wasn't selected in the initial squad this summer but then did get brought in as a replacement for an injury, and then got injured himself which is a shame.

 

Previously though, I think at U17 level he was one of the key players. Slattery also captained England at U16 level and similar to Sims only made the last squad as an injury replacement.

 

Nobody expects players of the quality of Shaw, Chambers, Walcott to always come through but across those age groups there are upwards of 80 players selected so you would expect a decent Academy to have more than one representative considering there are only about 15-20 Cat A Academies and most England youth players come from those.

[Dangermouth]

Great topic.

England U18's won the World Cup and not one Saints player was in the squad.

Thats not right?

I lay the blame with a couple of things and that is the coaches reshuffle too much and trying to create a role for Jaidi who does not cut it as a coach.

 

 

It's interesting you say that. I saw an interview with him a short while ago and asked myself whether he was actually any good. There was something about what he said (and what little he said) and how he said it that made me wonder. Is this just both of us wondering if he's any good or do you (or anyone else) know how good our coaches actually are? Much as he was maligned, I would like/have liked Portlooviert back to coach the youth as he would have got them playing some lovely fluid stuff. Might have needed some help on the defence but I can't remember if we were bad that year or just if we had too many players who weren't ready for first team football.

[Pass the Dutchie]

Much as he was maligned, I would like/have liked Portlooviert back to coach the youth as he would have got them playing some lovely fluid stuff. Might have needed some help on the defence but I can't remember if we were bad that year or just if we had too many players who weren't ready for first team football.

 

It looks like he's no longer the coach of Qingdao Red Lions in China, so he may be available.

[Nordic Saint]

It's interesting you say that. I saw an interview with him a short while ago and asked myself whether he was actually any good. There was something about what he said (and what little he said) and how he said it that made me wonder. Is this just both of us wondering if he's any good or do you (or anyone else) know how good our coaches actually are? Much as he was maligned, I would like/have liked Portlooviert back to coach the youth as he would have got them playing some lovely fluid stuff. Might have needed some help on the defence but I can't remember if we were bad that year or just if we had too many players who weren't ready for first team football.

 

It's not expensive buildings and rooms full of videos that brought us success but the people who used to work in them.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/southampton/10843902/Luke-Shaw-dismayed-as-Southampton-sack-academy-coaches-Jason-Dodd-and-Paul-Williams.html

[Give it to Ron]

And I don't think the Academy has ever really recovered from the sacking of Dodd and Williams.

That would be the great D & W that are coaching where? Sorry thats rubbish.

 

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[OldNick]

It's not expensive buildings and rooms full of videos that brought us success but the people who used to work in them.

 

Exactly,you can have the best facilities in the world but if you fill them with dross you get dross

[Give it to Ron]

Exactly,you can have the best facilities in the world but if you fill them with dross you get dross

I wouldn't say dross just IMO we go for too technical . I was fortunate enough a couple of years ago to watch a lot of academy games. Including the above coaches and they didn't fit if you had watched you would understand same as Murty.

When we play big physical sides we mostly get beat but the idealogy is individual progress.

Some of who I used to watch are now coming through like Rowthorn the lad Bartlett who we gave a 6 year deal at age 12.

The academy is alive and still producing just a gap a cock up a few years ago when age mistake saw some released.

Not sure how some can criticise us at least we give them a chance.

 

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[OldNick]

I wouldn't say dross just IMO we go for too technical . I was fortunate enough a couple of years ago to watch a lot of academy games. Including the above coaches and they didn't fit if you had watched you would understand same as Murty.

When we play big physical sides we mostly get beat but the idealogy is individual progress.

Some of who I used to watch are now coming through like Rowthorn the lad Bartlett who we gave a 6 year deal at age 12.

The academy is alive and still producing just a gap a cock up a few years ago when age mistake saw some released.

Not sure how some can criticise us at least we give them a chance.

 

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That is reassuring. I have stated before that it seems all our young players are not athletic and all seem pretty short.

I worry about the coaches,as if the goalkeeping coach is anything t go by, the keepers go backwards not forward under his stewardship

[Saint IQ]

Out of interest who are the top 3 academies in the country. Not based on the current crop but over a period of say 10 years? Ie consistency

 

That would be interesting, more interesting though would be the top 10/20 academies in the world over the last 10 years. Say across the top 10 leagues in Europe which the Championship would be included. Add up the amount of players from the top 100 or so academies in the world involved in the first team in each of those leagues.

 

If I'd Hazard a guess top 3 would be

 

Man United

Ajax

Barca

 

Then the football farms of Chelsea and City will start to catch up.

 

In England currently it'd be between United, Spurs, Saints and Chelsea

 

Would be interesting to find a recent article on this subject.

[Pilchards]

The reason why our academy is amazing is because we produce outstanding talent every now and again.

Bale, Theo, Oxy and Shaw have lifted the profile but since then nothing special.

More about living on its repretation.

[SKD]

I think this time we have Bertrand in the senior squad and Vokins in the U18's.

 

That must be the lowest for a number of years across the age groups combined. A couple of years ago we probably had 10 involved at all levels with England and key players in most of the younger age groups.

 

Of course JWP and Redmond are no longer eligible for the U21s but it shows how there is a gap of talent coming through the academy ranks with only Vokins involved. Some other PL sides have 10 or more players between U17 and U21 level alone.

 

With relegation from the U23 league last season and a couple of poor seasons at U18 level it is hardly a suprise but nonetheless not a great look for a club that puts so much emphasis on its Academy.

 

From those with more knowledge, are some of the younger age groups more promising?

 

It's been a concern of the club for a while that there is little to no talent coming through, hence why we have brought youngsters in from other clubs.

 

Reed needs to get this dream of a team made up of 50% academy graduates as it just will not happen, if we want to be a successful team.

 

Paul Mitchell > Ross Wilson.

 

Recruitment at all levels has deteriorated badly in the last couple of years. Mitchell, not Reed, was the real brains behind our success.

 

100% agree - not so much at youth level, but certainly first team level.

[OldNick]

Paul Mitchell > Ross Wilson.

 

Recruitment at all levels has deteriorated badly in the last couple of years. Mitchell, not Reed, was the real brains behind our success.

I'm not sure that is the case. I suspect we bought as many duds as good ones under his watch as well.

 

Was VVD or Mane bought when Mitchell was here? it is a question not a statement

[SKD]

I'm not sure that is the case. I suspect we bought as many duds as good ones under his watch as well.

 

Was VVD or Mane bought when Mitchell was here? it is a question not a statement

 

They would have been identified by Mitchell, but were brought under Wilson.

[Give it to Ron]

They would have been identified by Mitchell, but were brought under Wilson.

What about Forren, Juanmi, Gazzaniga, Osvaldo, Ramirez none if those were Mitchell's?

 

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[Charlie Wayman]

It's not expensive buildings and rooms full of videos that brought us success but the people who used to work in them.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/southampton/10843902/Luke-Shaw-dismayed-as-Southampton-sack-academy-coaches-Jason-Dodd-and-Paul-Williams.html

 

More than that. Every PL club scout is looking for the next great young talent. If you were a kid and five clubs came knocking including Chelsea and Man U as well as us, would you choose SFC just because Gareth Bale used to be here?

[SKD]

What about Forren, Juanmi, Gazzaniga, Osvaldo, Ramirez none if those were Mitchell's?

 

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Of course he signed duds, I never said he didn't, did I? Lets be clear though, Osvaldo (pretty sure he was a Poch recommendation rather than black box) was clearly a very talented player, but he was just a bit of a headcase.

 

Forren, Juanmi & Gazzaniga whilst not cut out for the PL were all very low risk given the fee's involved.

 

Gaston was disappointing, there's no hiding that.

[Dusic]

Have our U18s or U23s won a game yet this season?

 

Might just be a perception but they seem to lose almost every week.

[Dusic]

Number of players in the latest U17 to U21 England squads: 0

 

Pretty embarassing for a club that pushes its Academy so heavily in media and PR videos.

[Saint86]

Number of players in the latest U17 to U21 England squads: 0

 

Pretty embarassing for a club that pushes its Academy so heavily in media and PR videos.

 

Saints were in turmoil 8-10 years ago. Is it really surprising that our current 16-18year olds are not what they once were?

[Dusic]

Saints were in turmoil 8-10 years ago. Is it really surprising that our current 16-18year olds are not what they once were?

Considering how many players also get recruited in between age 12-20, rather than being with us since age 6 then yes, its suprising.

 

Alao the likes of Slattery who was U16 captain and then now can't make the squad. Poor coaching?

[ErwinK1961]

Number of players in the latest U17 to U21 England squads: 0

 

Pretty embarassing for a club that pushes its Academy so heavily in media and PR videos.

 

Add this to our draw away against Brighton and I'm not sure I can show my face in public out of sheer embarrassment.

[Dusic]

Add this to our draw away against Brighton and I'm not sure I can show my face in public out of sheer embarrassment.

Definitely easier to stay in. My mate got verbally abused by a group of builders in Selco a couple of days ago because of that weird Halloween video about the Black Box!

[Hodgey]

Coaching is clearly a big part of it. Our biggest success for me was under George Prost who not only coached through some of the biggest talent but set processes in place that lasted for years. I don't know much about our current coaches but like above I'd be amazed if Jaidi is the standard we would ideally want. Interestingly enough another coach - Anthony Limbrick - who was arguably involved in youth development through our most succesfull period (Adkins - Koeman) and was also assistant manager for Engand U17s, is currently doing pretty well at my local club Woking (and their squad has got a lot younger as a result).

We seem to be producing identikit small, technically decent players with little in the way of power/pace/mileage which also suggests recruitment criteria is too narrow / wrong.

[shurlock]

Definitely easier to stay in. My mate got verbally abused by a group of builders in Selco a couple of days ago because of that weird Halloween video about the Black Box!

 

[Daft Kerplunk]

Saints were in turmoil 8-10 years ago. Is it really surprising that our current 16-18year olds are not what they once were?

 

The u16s are now the age where they would have been coached during Les’ version of the Southampton Way. I am sure that a few staff from the days when Southampton’s academy was really doing well and producing the players that the club still use for marketing and the current lot claim credit for left to go and work for England, turning that lot around from the it was before...

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Number of players in the latest U17 to U21 England squads: 0

 

Pretty embarassing for a club that pushes its Academy so heavily in media and PR videos.

 

Any chance to have a dig at the club...... sad

[hutch]

[Heisenberg]

Don't think anyone could have predicted our decline.

 

#toldyouso #headinsand #complacency

[sotonist]

The u16s are now the age where they would have been coached during Les’ version of the Southampton Way. I am sure that a few staff from the days when Southampton’s academy was really doing well and producing the players that the club still use for marketing and the current lot claim credit for left to go and work for England, turning that lot around from the �� it was before...

 

malcolm elias went to fulham and they did rather well for a bit. not so much now.

 

not sure what his contributionw as like at liverpool.

[VectisSaint]

Any chance to have a dig at the club...... sad

sad, but true. Have been saying it for a few years our famed academy is now not even average in comparison to our rivals. We are seeing now the quality that has come through post our near demise, we can no longer blame that for at least the u16/17s. Our u23s are either pre-troubles or were brought in to the upper years of the academy (like Stephens from Plymouth). Our top end academy coaching has been poor for a few years now, our u21/3s relegated from the top flight last season and struggling this, our u18s struggling again. Its what is known as resting on your laurels, repeating the mantra of The Southampton Way (whatever that is) and believing your own hype. Since Georges Prost sadly left ten years ago we have gone backwards in terms of our academy while still insisting what a great academy we have for developing Theo Walcott. Its not knocking the club, its acknowledging that there is a serious problem and urging the club to wake up and do something about it instead of continuing with second rate coaches.

[Dangermouth]

Have we just given up on JWP, Stephens, McQueen, Targett, Sims, Hesketh, Slattery, Gallagher, Seager, Olomola then? All seem to have promise to me. They won't all make it, but some of them definitely could be important first team players if given the chance.

 

These 3 will or should do ok. I actually think of those 3 Stephens is the worst. Of the others still to be convinced by Slattery but I've not seen much of him and he is a bit young for the under 23s. The rest will make it in the game I think but either have yet to show enough for me to think they're top tier standard or have shown enough for me to think they aren't. Part of it is due to the fact that we did seem to like blonde midgets at one point and you know they'll struggle with leagues and players where a physical presence (e.g. Lemina) is a prerequisite.

 

On the whole it does seem that the academy has dropped markedly since Prost left and if people are saying that it's because the kids aren't very good then surely the strategy should be just to get in good footballers and leave the coaching to our coaching teams (who have still to convince me they actually have anything other than badges i.e. they're bulk standard coaches the numbers of which are probably in the majority). Yes, I am underwhelmed by Jaidi but I think if we don't see a marked improvement in two years then we can say the horse has bolted and perhaps we need to start again.

[simo]

The club as a whole seems to have hit the buffers and lost it's spark lately!

[JRM]

Remember when Les Reed predicted Forster and Mccarthy would go to the World Cup

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/alex-mccarthy-over-moon-after-8542285

[CB Fry]

Don't think anyone could have predicted our decline.

 

#toldyouso #headinsand #complacency

Club are clearly struggling with what is clearly the "Cortese generation" of youth product. A real shame. I'm looking forward to the fruits of the current regime bursting through in a few years time.

[Dusic]

Any chance to have a dig at the club...... sad

Its more than a fair question I would say and surely something the club have noted and are probably concerned by, in addition to that fact no young players who have not yet played in the first team are anywhere remotely near doing so.

 

Not that I would expect the Duncan Castles of Saints FC to acknowledge that of course.

[Window Cleaner]

Seems to me that the average age of top of the pile international footballers is getting lower and lower. Mind you, given the age at which most players start nowadays they're probably burnt out by 28 or 29. Looks to be the case with nearly all of those we've sold for biggish fees these last years. Hardly one of them seems to play regularly now.

[Village Saint]

That would be the great D & W that are coaching where? Sorry thats rubbish.

 

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I know its difficult to judge sometimes but I don't think he was being serious. I think everyone is awareness of their limitations as coaches.