Saints 3 West Ham 2 - Match & Reactions

[Shroppie]

MoM yoshida?

wow

Yes, wow.

 

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[Batman]

Yes, wow.

 

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we barely won a defensive header the whole game. Even MP acknowledged that

Yoshida was easily beaten for their 2nd goal.

I think we would have lost that had Carroll been playing, as they had the better of us in the air nearly the whole game

[OldNick]

I only have watched the highlights on Sky, but I notice a lot of criticism of Redmond, he was involved in 2 goals and also close a couple of attempts.

Forster unlucky with the 2nd goal, both goals were brilliant poaching by Hernandez

[capitalsaint]

Yes, wow.

 

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Seconded, easily my MoM!

[Mozz]

We what I can't understand is how the duck that Noble tackle ended up in a free kick to them from that very spot or did I miss something.

 

I've been thinking exactly the same thing.

 

The ref whistled, made no real hand gesture other than pointing to his head whilst calling physio on which suggested he had stopped play for the head injury, but then play restarted with a dead ball from Joe Hart at the spot of the Noble challenge. As such it looks like far from considering sending noble off for that shocker of a challenge, he deemed him the victim and gave West Ham the free kick!

[Batman]

Seconded, easily my MoM!

 

we really must have been crap.

he (and stephens) consistently lost out in the air (which brought one of the goals at least) to the towering Antonio and Ayew

 

[DT]

Good result. Well done saints. But could we please lose Tadic as penalty taker. Just doesn't inspire confidence and was lucky with that one again.

 

 

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[capitalsaint]

we really must have been crap.

he (and stephens) consistently lost out in the air (which brought one of the goals at least) to the towering Antonio and Ayew

 

 

Fair enough, it's a bit curate's egg- depends how you see it. The cross for West Ham's second goal was great, as was Chicharito's movement, so I don't hold too much against Maya for that. What I did notice was the amount of important tackles and interceptions he made, not to mention that it was his persistence that got the winning penalty.

 

Ultimately we know that Maya works better with a commanding CB partner, that will always be the case. I honestly think that without him yesterday we would have been much, much worse.

 

NB it's the first game I've been to see live for about 3 years, so maybe my eye for a player is a bit rusty.

[Batman]

Unbelievable. Our CB's need help.

 

Yet again lost a header in defence.

 

Stephens and Yoshida are not good enough in the air at this level. Every cross is causing us havoc.

 

West Ham know that all they have to do is lump long balls at our defence.

 

we look weak in central defence .

 

Don't like our cb's - something needs to happen. Maybe Hoedt will help this. Obviously VVD would.

 

 

Our defense was shaky today, couldn't deal with the crosses West Ham put in.

 

.

 

Our defensive frailty in the air is so painfully obvious it's scary.

 

 

Crying out for a centre back to win the ball in the air.

 

Defence so poor in the air - manager should have changed it earlier up front.

3 points well done got out of jail.

 

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Wow-loved that ,but lot harder than it needed to be.

 

As good as Yoshida and Stephens are on the ground they are both weak in the air or at least not strong enough.Bearing that in mind we have to react better to loose balls in and around the box.

 

.

 

Less said about the defending the better - hardly won a defensive header all game.

 

One of the first things Pellegrino said post match is that we weren't good enough dealing with long balls, I like this guy a lot so far. Says exactly what he see's.

 

Fair enough, it's a bit curate's egg- depends how you see it. The cross for West Ham's second goal was great, as was Chicharito's movement, so I don't hold too much against Maya for that. What I did notice was the amount of important tackles and interceptions he made, not to mention that it was his persistence that got the winning penalty.

 

Ultimately we know that Maya works better with a commanding CB partner, that will always be the case. I honestly think that without him yesterday we would have been much, much worse.

 

NB it's the first game I've been to see live for about 3 years, so maybe my eye for a player is a bit rusty.

 

fair enough. but the general consensus (including from the manager) was that we were very poor in defensive areas and Yoshida was fundamental to that.

He and Stephens are very good with the ball at their feet but barely won a header under pressure the whole game and it nearly cost us the win

 

anyway, we march on

[John Boy Saint]

Seconded, easily my MoM!

Sorry Batman thirded....... Without doubt they were getting done in the air which is quite a rare thing where Yoshida is concerned, but strangely enough most of the football is played on the floor, his reading of some situations at times is exceptional. There was a moment in the second half where the ball came to him he shaped and fainted to go one way then subtly switched direction, the closing West Ham players fell for it and he bought enough time to play the ball out without any pressure: but so simple it was exquisite............... It got a round of applause from many in the ground who saw it for what it was.

[John B]

fair enough. but the general consensus (including from the manager) was that we were very poor in defensive areas and Yoshida was fundamental to that.

He and Stephens are very good with the ball at their feet but barely won a header under pressure the whole game and it nearly cost us the win

 

anyway, we march on

 

But we ****ing won so whats the problem

 

Next week you will be whingeing about something else footballers like people are not perfect so just accept sometimes we will win sometimes we will lose.

 

We have a decent squad so lets get behind and see how the season pans out .

 

Per

[EBS1980]

First goal, Romeu got turned on each of box and nobody reacted to the save apart from Hernandez.

Second goal, Yoshida wrong side of man for header, nobody marking or reacting to free ball apart from Hernandez.

[doddisalegend]

fair enough. but the general consensus (including from the manager) was that we were very poor in defensive areas and Yoshida was fundamental to that.

He and Stephens are very good with the ball at their feet but barely won a header under pressure the whole game and it nearly cost us the win

 

anyway, we march on

 

 

There was more to both of WHUs goals then losing a header though. For WHUs second Creswell had the freedom of SMS to put in a very good cross which is pretty odd considering we had a man advantage no way should he have had that much space to pick his pass. In both of their goals no one picked up Hernandez allowing him to pick up the second ball Bertrand was embarrassing for the their first goal.

 

Clearly we need to be better in the aerial battles at the back but defending should be a team effort not just down to the CBs.

[shurlock]

First goal, Romeu got turned on each of box and nobody reacted to the save apart from Hernandez.

Second goal, Yoshida wrong side of man for header, nobody marking or reacting to free ball apart from Hernandez.

 

Stephens marking empty space for the second (which he has a tendency to do).

[Batman]

There was more to both of WHUs goals then losing a header though. For WHUs second Creswell had the freedom of SMS to put in a very good cross which is pretty odd considering we had a man advantage no way should he have had that much space to pick his pass. In both of their goals no one picked up Hernandez allowing him to pick up the second ball Bertrand was embarrassing for the their first goal.

 

Clearly we need to be better in the aerial battles at the back but defending should be a team effort not just down to the CBs.

 

agree. just highlighting why i think it is daft to suggest Yoshida was 'easily mom'

[Appy]

I can't believe that people on here believe that Forster was responsible for the first goal

 

Because he was, his parry was pathetic.

[Appy]

Nah! too many on here, want a finished article at age 18, if not, buy one. I love it when a youngster comes through.

 

But if a youngster isn't good enough to start on a regular basis we can't just keep playing them surely?

[James]

A lot of Hammers very upset about a Tadic tackle on Hernandez (he got booked I think). Anyone remember whether it was lucky not to be a red? I don't remember thinking we'd got away with one at the time.

 

Some Hammers even claiming that the Arnatovic and Noble tackles were as a result of us winding them up with our prior tackles

[SFC-TID!]

The reason the CB's are being highlighted is because we have a world class Dutchman, sat on his backside not want to play. It's criminal that he's evening being paid.

 

Bertrand does indeed want to go and expected to go. He's not acting up though and is being the model pro, he just had an off day and I don't think he was 100% after last weeks injury.

 

We won and Hoedt will help.

[Gingeletiss]

But if a youngster isn't good enough to start on a regular basis we can't just keep playing them surely?

 

Isn't good enough for what, a top four team. We are not that good, we are not that big, and for the foreseeable future, we never will be. Our youngsters are the clubs future, as such, they must be given game time. It's no good keep loaning them out, at what age do you suggest they get to show Saints fans, what they are capable of. JWP came on yesterday, and was very good in the time he was given, whereas Davis was ponderous the whole game, and he is the player who in my opinion, slows the attack down the most.

 

But hey, it is all about opinions, and being in my 60's now, I have seen some crap players play for us, and some great players, but all in all, I don't expect every youngster who comes through the ranks, to be a world beater at 20, and you will not see many of those players at other clubs either. Some take longer to show their game strengths, and we have been guilty of getting rid of youngsters before now, who went on to embarrass us.

[trousers]

Bertrand does indeed want to go and expected to go. He's not acting up though and is being the model pro

 

I disagree. I was watching him closely from the stands yesterday and his body language wasn't screaming out "model pro" to me.

[trousers]

A lot of Hammers very upset about a Tadic tackle on Hernandez (he got booked I think). Anyone remember whether it was lucky not to be a red? I don't remember thinking we'd got away with one at the time.

 

Looked more clumsy than cynical from where I was standing (albeit a fair distance away in the Northam). You'd have thought MotD would have shown it if it was contentious? Without having seen a replay, yellow was correct decision IMO.

[Pass the Dutchie]

EDIT: never mind.

Edited 20 August, 2017 by Pass the Dutchie

[beatlesaint]

I disagree. I was watching him closely from the stands yesterday and his body language wasn't screaming out "model pro" to me.

 

To be fair his body language hasnt been great for about a year now. He had a good game last week, as has been mentioned he may not have been 100%

[captainchris]

Good result. Well done saints. But could we please lose Tadic as penalty taker. Just doesn't inspire confidence and was lucky with that one again.

 

 

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Couldn't agree more. What on earth is going with using Tadic as our pen taker??? Is this Black in action again? He cannot take penalties - we all know that but Managment don't - How is that??????????

[Nordic Saint]

Because he was, his parry was pathetic.

 

He seems to be getting some basic errors coached into his game, which he never had before. He used to push balls wide or even catch them. Now, he always parries them forward. He has also lost his spontaneity and now takes time to think about everything he does, from kicks to throws and even saves. This slows down our game and also costs us goals. Again, I suspect this comes from coaching. People forget, but Forster used to be a much better goalkeeper than he is now. The same applies to all the goalkeepers at the club. Gazzaniga seems to have improved since he got away from Dave Watson. I think Forster would too.

[SuperSAINT]

The reason the CB's are being highlighted is because we have a world class Dutchman, sat on his backside not want to play. It's criminal that he's evening being paid.

 

Bertrand does indeed want to go and expected to go. He's not acting up though and is being the model pro, he just had an off day and I don't think he was 100% after last weeks injury.

 

We won and Hoedt will help.

 

This window?

[mrfahaji]

Fair enough, it's a bit curate's egg- depends how you see it. The cross for West Ham's second goal was great, as was Chicharito's movement, so I don't hold too much against Maya for that. What I did notice was the amount of important tackles and interceptions he made, not to mention that it was his persistence that got the winning penalty.

 

Ultimately we know that Maya works better with a commanding CB partner, that will always be the case. I honestly think that without him yesterday we would have been much, much worse.

 

NB it's the first game I've been to see live for about 3 years, so maybe my eye for a player is a bit rusty.

 

A lot of the comments on here re Yoshida's general good game are fair, but I'm not sure you can explain away the second goal. Yes it was a good cross, but also one from deep where it was clear a cross was about to come in. Maya has to be closer to Sakho in the first instance - you learn as a kid to be goalside as a defender, he was about a yard the wrong side.

 

Yes, Hernandez should have been picked up but I think that's more forgivable - when a cross comes over your head it's not easy to stick on your markers, and strikers like Hernandez have made a career out of sniffing out the right place for loose balls. Fantastic finish too.

[Saint_clark]

He seems to be getting some basic errors coached into his game, which he never had before. He used to push balls wide or even catch them. Now, he always parries them forward. He has also lost his spontaneity and now takes time to think about everything he does, from kicks to throws and even saves. This slows down our game and also costs us goals. Again, I suspect this comes from coaching. People forget, but Forster used to be a much better goalkeeper than he is now. The same applies to all the goalkeepers at the club. Gazzaniga seems to have improved since he got away from Dave Watson. I think Forster would too.

 

I think that's a load of rubbish, Forster so far this season has looked a lot slimmer, a lot more willing to come out and a lot quicker and accurate with his kicks and throws (although accuracy could still use some work). In fact I don't remember him ever throwing the ball quickly out to start a counter attack the way he did yesterday.

[shurlock]

A lot of the comments on here re Yoshida's general good game are fair, but I'm not sure you can explain away the second goal. Yes it was a good cross, but also one from deep where it was clear a cross was about to come in. Maya has to be closer to Sakho in the first instance - you learn as a kid to be goalside as a defender, he was about a yard the wrong side.

 

Yes, Hernandez should have been picked up but I think that's more forgivable - when a cross comes over your head it's not easy to stick on your markers, and strikers like Hernandez have made a career out of sniffing out the right place for loose balls. Fantastic finish too.

 

What was Stephens doing for the second goal?

[benjii]

Really don't see why people are having a pop at Forster. Not a lot more he could've done with that and he made some very good saves. If Hernandez wasn't around for that second goal we'd all be saying how much of a world class save he made to tip it onto the bar.

 

I was a big critic of him last season but don't give him a hard time just for the sake of it.

 

P.S. Noble is an utter **** for that challenge. He has a habit of making those and he should've 100% seen a red card for it. Ref was in a good position as well. Terrible challenge.

 

Ref gave them the free kick FFS!

[Saints foreva]

I disagree. I was watching him closely from the stands yesterday and his body language wasn't screaming out "model pro" to me.

 

He didn't even celebrate our winning goal.

[mrfahaji]

What was Stephens doing for the second goal?

 

Is that a rhetorical question? From what I recall he was in front of Sakho - perhaps poor positioning in the first place? Nonetheless, Yoshida could see Sakho when the ball was about to be delivered, Stephens couldn't. As for the second ball, I don't remember, but it's common to see strikers react to the second ball faster.

[fanimal]

FF was a bit unlucky really, the first goal the shot took a deflection and the second was an instinctive reaction save just to be undone by a world class finish by a quality poacher hats off to him. No one seems to be enthusing about our first goal and the overall movement/pace; sure Gabba got lucky with a scuffed shot but it was OT! What annoyed me was he made loads more runs and didn't get the pass early enough. As per usual Redmond and RB had their weekly hissy fit when one doesn't pass to each other not spotting a run, hilarious.

[John Boy Saint]

I disagree. I was watching him closely from the stands yesterday and his body language wasn't screaming out "model pro" to me.

With you on that one.

Not long into the game he was signalling across to the bench that he wanted to come off, then when Maya went to play a ball to him in space he signalled "no" he didn't want it, then he saw out the game??!! Think he was also getting a bit hacked off at Redmond in the second half.

I heard from someone with a connection close to the team that pretty much the first available bus out of Saints he wants to be on it.

[angelman]

No one is enthusing about our 1st goal, as like the WHU fans were chanting "2-0 and you ****ed it up". That **** up rather surpasses the very good first goal, ably helped by really really poor defending by Fonte. But their goals...1st one FF shouldn't have beaten it back out. 2nd, not much he could have done really. Shame his instinctive save hit the bar rather than go over it.

[East Kent Saint]

The Noble tackle was not looked at by the ref as another WH player was already on the deck so he was just waiting for a break to get attention for that player so missed the studs to shin contact !

[simo]

The Noble tackle was not looked at by the ref as another WH player was already on the deck so he was just waiting for a break to get attention for that player so missed the studs to shin contact !

 

Retrospective action ?

[VectisSaint]

The Noble tackle was not looked at by the ref as another WH player was already on the deck so he was just waiting for a break to get attention for that player so missed the studs to shin contact !

Mason still gave the free kick to them at the spot where Noble clattered Lamina. He must have thought (clearly wrongly) that Lamina fouled Noble.

[Dangermouth]

Fair enough, it's a bit curate's egg- depends how you see it. The cross for West Ham's second goal was great, as was Chicharito's movement, so I don't hold too much against Maya for that. What I did notice was the amount of important tackles and interceptions he made, not to mention that it was his persistence that got the winning penalty.

 

Ultimately we know that Maya works better with a commanding CB partner, that will always be the case. I honestly think that without him yesterday we would have been much, much worse.

 

NB it's the first game I've been to see live for about 3 years, so maybe my eye for a player is a bit rusty.

 

 

 

Bit in bold. I do, because that is very important.

 

1/ He and Stephens' jobs first and foremost are to prevent goals (or opportunities to score, along with everyone else);

 

2/ There are lots of good attackers around so it will happen a lot;

 

3/ Teams will exploit our perceived weaknesses: think WBA/Burnley and the like on set pieces (and L'pool's frailties in that regard);

 

4/ If we play against better defences than the slow and out of positon WHam defence we won't score/get the opportunities for penalties and thus lose the game;

 

5/ The cross wasn't that good, came from deep and quite central and was slow - should have been closed down in midfield;

 

6/ The attacker still had to win the header and it was the type of cross that favours the defender slightly more although the run of the attacker to come onto the ball was good (that was more use than the cross actually);

 

On the question of 'potential' why is it that people assume that because someone is 'young' they will automatically 'get good' until say in 6 years' time they're past it? Too much crap computer football sim? Because if that's the case, you buy players who can mark well, concentrate well, and tackle and head well in that game. The problem with Stephens is highlighted by Yoshi: if he hasn't got it ingrained in him to be always on his toes, etc, it is not something that repetition can directly 'train': it's a habit that has to be worked out of him. Look at Hernandez' second goal. Between the ball hitting the bar and him scoring was about half a second: he has a goal instinct that none, bar Austin I think, in our team do. But in that time he has to gamble, be in the right area, watch the ball, be ready for anything, adjust his body and get a clean strike on it. That's in less time than most of us have to actually read what's happening.

 

While I do like the fact that Yoshida is less petrified when in the opposition's half and with the ball at his feet this year, a lot of his (and many players', actually) defending (to get back to that) isn't necessarily good but last-gasp throw yourself in front of the ball as well as the poor decision of the attacker. Look at Abraham last week. The one chance he had to slow things down in his mind and not do the obvious and he did us in the middle of the area and got a shot away. A better forward e.g. Aguero scores that goal and we lose. That's where this league falls down: it's too quick to actually support good decision-making/game understanding, etc.

 

So I'd prefer defensive stability because if a team thinks they have to do something special to score from their one opportunity mentally they've half-lost but if they think they can (or will score) then as a team you have a much bigger problem and a harder game of it.

[Manuel]

Laughed at that bald bloke in the Northam getting a hand shake from Gabbi after he scored.

[wild-saint]

Yes, wow.

 

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I tend to agree whilst both a decent defenders on the ground they have the presence of a penguin in the air.

 

We looked rally susceptible to high balls / crosses into the box. In fact I nearly remember us winning a high ball in the area all afternoon. A massive worry for me against physical teams.

[Roger]

Apprantky Bertrand attitude been off all pre season .

[Smirking_Saint]

There was more to both of WHUs goals then losing a header though. For WHUs second Creswell had the freedom of SMS to put in a very good cross which is pretty odd considering we had a man advantage no way should he have had that much space to pick his pass. In both of their goals no one picked up Hernandez allowing him to pick up the second ball Bertrand was embarrassing for the their first goal.

 

Clearly we need to be better in the aerial battles at the back but defending should be a team effort not just down to the CBs.

 

Pretty much how I saw it, and after watching MOTD again I would say that I would be happy to give Forster a 7 again for yesterday, he gets an awful lot of stick, but Id suggest that yesterday he had a pretty good game, and considering that everyone was banging on about wanting Hart over Forster, after yesterday I know who I would rather as Hart, especially his distribution, looked mediocre at best.

 

As for Yoshida, I can only assume that Batman wasn't at the game, and is so attempting some sort of detailed analysis from text commentary ?

 

From what I saw Yoshi looked pretty good, dealt with everything he could on the floor, made some crucial interceptions and tackles and generally battled hard and distributed the ball well. WHU, in the main, were pinging long balls wide to Antonio and Arnautovic, the CB's started moving out to try to win the ball but quickly reverted to exactly what I expected them to do, by ensuring that any flick ons were nullified and loose men picked up. I don't particularly want my CB's out winning headers by the by line, if you do Batman thats fine, but Id suggest, if that were the case you've never actually played at a level at which teams will look at that tactic to 'pull defences out of position'. Of course we are vulnerable aerially, I find it odd that Stephens doesn't win more headers, but it looks as if Yoshi was taking the dominant role, putting pressure on the header and ensuring that stephens was able to pick up the pieces.

 

Just to clarify, yes, we lost a lot in the air, even Romeu was being beaten all ends up, but we dealt with it, letting them win headers and picking up the flick ons, it never, really, put us under pressure to be honest.

 

Onto Forster, the first goal was a bit disappointing, but I've looked at it a couple of times now, for a start Romeu was arguably too close to Antonio, who spun him and got a shot off with his left foot, Forster was planted, he probably wasn't ready for it the same as I don't really think anyone else was. The real criminal part was Bertrand not shielding the parry, which I agree could have been better and fell to the very clever Hernandez. The second couldn't be landed at Forsters feet either, he made a cracking reaction save, only for this time Cedric to miss Hernandez who came around his blind side, but as Doddisalegend pointed out, the main point was there was a lack of any closing down of Cresswell, by JWP I think ? Who was allowed to weigh up all his options and complete a crossword before dropping an excellent cross onto Sakho's head.

 

It was another of those games, we had a goal dissallowed, hit the bar twice and generally were the better team, we just don't make enough of our possession. I think Redmond deserves to be dropped, he just doesn't add anything, and Tadic needs to work on his crossing. We could also do with actually releasing the ball quicker every now and again, as its all too obvious that we will get forward, hold the ball up, look for the overlap or bring it back inside and recycle. Like Gabi's goal proved, sometimes if you take an early pass then you will reap the rewards.

 

My last note is to say, lets get someone, anyone other than Tadic to take our penalties, he has not only missed our fair share but yesterdays effort didn't do anything to inspire anyone of his ability from 10 yards.

[saintalan]

Apprantky Bertrand attitude been off all pre season .

 

Carrying on from where he left off last season!

[warsash saint]

Did the pitch invader make it out the ground after sprinting back into the concourse after the winner?

[Roger]

All these rumours about Bertrands attitude are laughable and completely incorrect.

 

Next....

 

They really aren't.

[SuperSAINT]

Thought Bertrand looked disinterested. Is he wondering if he should be doing a VVD?

 

Bertrand does indeed want to go and expected to go. He's not acting up though and is being the model pro, he just had an off day and I don't think he was 100% after last weeks injury.

 

All these rumours about Bertrand's attitude are laughable and completely incorrect.

 

Next....

 

Was very happy with our winning goal......... I think.

 

[derry]

Just a little statistic that the connoisseurs can hang their hats on, six matches over 3000 passes no goals. Yesterday we won the ball in our half Romeu to Gabbiadini to Redmond to Gabbiadini, three passes for a goal. Most of the passing play yesterday was negative for possessions sake crap. I know what I want to see, a lot more of the direct running and quick balls and a lot less of the possession only slow motion.

[Dark Munster]

Carrying on from where he left off last season!

Wasn't one of the reasons for getting rid of Puel to make him and some of the other players happy?