Flammable Cladding and Exploding Fridges

[Guided Missile]

It may be too early for many, but not for me. This should never happen again.

 

Cladding doesn't catch fire on it's own and fridges don't normally explode. The only time I ever experienced an exploding fridge was when I allowed a research chemist to chill a solution of a pharmaceutical, dissolved in diethyl ether in our laboratory fridge. Later that night, as the thermostat in the fridge made contact and sparked, the fridge full of flammable vapour blew up and burnt the laboratory down. Flameproof laboratory fridges are available, but very expensive. We have 5 of them.

 

MDMA is normally purified by dissolving in acetone, filtering and then cooling, so that it crystallises out of solution. Acetone is also very flammable and if a normal fridge is full of acetone vapour, a spark from the thermostat will turn the fridge into a bomb. Such an explosion could cause aluminium and polyethylene cladding to catch fire in a heartbeat.

 

So, the first lesson is do not store flammable liquids in a domestic fridge and the second lesson is that if you do, make sure the building in which the fridge is situated is not clad in combustible material. The first lesson is the most important because the second lesson will not occur.

 

Just saying....

 

....also this is interesting but who knows if it's relevant?

Edited 10 July, 2017 by Guided Missile
Interesting News Article

[hypochondriac]

On another forum I go on there is one of the firefighters on there. He reckons the number of dead could reach three figures which is horrible. He did though say that fires from white goods are a lot more common than people think.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I understand that the cladding they put on the outside of tower blocks is supposed to be flame retardant - remarkably the insulation placed behind this exterior cladding is not. Whatever the cause of this disaster may be, I would hope that we could all agree that no stone hold be left unturned to ensure that this type of event NEVER happens again.

[do i not like fizzy pop]

This is where the problem is with rainscreen cladding systems and the insulation used within. The insulation core can be made of polyurethane (PUR), polyisocyanurate (PIR), expanded polystyrene (XPS), phenolic foam or mineral wool (Rockwool). All are combustible to varying degrees (mineral wool is the safest and most expensive) and behave differently in a fire - some won't propagate a flame for example but melt and this melt can be flammable, some char rather than burn and some smoulder rather than burn releasing thick smoke.

[buctootim]

The insulation core can be made of polyurethane (PUR), polyisocyanurate (PIR), expanded polystyrene (XPS), phenolic foam or mineral wool (Rockwool). All are combustible to varying degrees (mineral wool is the safest and most expensive) and behave differently in a fire

 

I insulated the inside of my house with PIR. I had no idea it was flammable - just assumed in this safety conscious, regulated world products by reputable brands bought from reputable suppliers would be safe. This is the first world in 2017 right?

 

 

"Our records show a Celotex product (RS5000) was purchased for use in refurbishing the building. Full technical information on all of our products is available here on our website. If required, we will assist with enquiries from the relevant authorities at the appropriate time. Due to the nature of this developing situation it would be inappropriate for us to comment or speculate further on this tragedy."https://www.celotex.co.uk/

Edited 15 June, 2017 by buctootim

[Manuel]

The tarted up cladding is there to appease the views of the nearby rich West Londoners. Please remember, the tower residents are poor people in a Tory council with Tory government. Fire-proofing the accommodation of the poor will not be a priority.

[OldNick]

The tarted up cladding is there to appease the views of the nearby rich West Londoners. Please remember, the tower residents are poor people in a Tory council with Tory government. Fire-proofing the accommodation of the poor will not be a priority.

you fool, dont turn this into a class thing. Nobody would condone this happening and you are pathetic to make such claims. Shame on you

[Manuel]

you fool, dont turn this into a class thing. Nobody would condone this happening and you are pathetic to make such claims. Shame on you

Of course it is. You think fire-proof building materials are some sort of revelation un-affordable in 21C London? Materials on the cheap is what they were and I predict a scandal in the making providing it's not covered up (excuse pun).

[OldNick]

Of course it is. You think fire-proof building materials are some sort of revelation un-affordable in 21C London? Materials on the cheap is what they were and I predict a scandal in the making providing it's not covered up (excuse pun).

there may have been mistakes, but that would have been by local council officers whose job should be checking the materials used and work done. Also the contractors and landlords. not a government of any colour

[Guided Missile]

Possible cause here:

 

A series of violent fridge explosions is believed to have been caused by leaks of 'environmentally-friendly' coolant. Safety standards for manufacturers might have to be reviewed following the blasts, which have destroyed several kitchens.

At least four similar explosions have been reported in the last three years in the UK, two of them since May. The problem appears to result from a widespread switch to 'Greenfreeze' technology over the past 15 years and the use of isobutane and propane hydrocarbon gases as refrigerants. Previously CFCs and HFCs were used in fridges but these gases damaged the ozone layer and contributed significantly to global warming. There are now more than 300million Greenfreeze fridges around the world.

[moonraker]

This tragedy is the result of multiple factors including but not limited to; Current Fire Risk Assessment legislation and its application, failure to acknowledge known problems with this particular insulating material especially when used in high rise buildings, cutting local authority budgets, devolution of social housing management, maintenance and delivery to third party organisations, resulting in no direct elected representation, paying lip service to residents concerns and complaints, lack of any fire safety or fire awareness education for residents, basic building design relying on fire containment at the expense of effective escape and evacuation provision. Fire regulations have evolved over a long period, starting with the legislative response to Tooley Street fire in 1861 and has essentially been a bolting the stable door approach ever since. The fire services, fire safety specialists and fire engineers have highlighted many such issues, tragically to often they are the ones left saying we told you so.

[Johnny Bognor]

there may have been mistakes, but that would have been by local council officers whose job should be checking the materials used and work done. Also the contractors and landlords. not a government of any colour

 

Indeed, normally a catalogue of errors / misjudgements etc contribute to a such a disaster. One thing that is under the microscope is that people were told to remain in their flats, which was clearly the wrong advice. You can't blame that on the current govt. A firefighter at the scene claimed that they had the necessary manpower and equipment but that nothing would have prepared them for the speed and ferocity in which the fire took hold.

 

I'm not absolving the govt of blame as they may be partially culpable, but there are many players involved, including:

The materials manufacturers

Building Control

Planning departments

Installers

Fire safety advisors

The TMO responsible for the building

Health & Safety

Past and current Governments

Local Council

 

etc. etc. etc

 

I hope whoever is responsible is that they face justice through the courts, although I wont hold my breath

[do i not like fizzy pop]

I insulated the inside of my house with PIR. I had no idea it was flammable - just assumed in this safety conscious, regulated world products by reputable brands bought from reputable suppliers would be safe. This is the first world in 2017 right?

 

 

"Our records show a Celotex product (RS5000) was purchased for use in refurbishing the building. Full technical information on all of our products is available here on our website. If required, we will assist with enquiries from the relevant authorities at the appropriate time. Due to the nature of this developing situation it would be inappropriate for us to comment or speculate further on this tragedy."https://www.celotex.co.uk/

 

Hopefully to put your mind at rest Tim, this is a brief table how each of the insulation materials burn. (note this text is taken from a document specifically for rainscreen cladding)

 

"EPS will initially soften and shrink away from a small flame, but will then melt and burn. The voids created by melting admit oxygen, which intensifies the fire. Molten flaming droplets can spread the fire. All the material between the metal facings is likely to be consumed, leading to loss of structural stability. At the outset of the fire, development is fairly slow and contained. In a well-established fire, the material will contribute to the fire development. Delamination and collapse may be sudden. EPS was recognised as the worst of the plastic foams in fire conditions.

 

Extruded polystyrene (XPS) is a thermoplastic product equivalent to the flame retardant grade of EPS, but behaves similarly to EPS in fire conditions.

 

PUR is combustible. However, it forms a char layer which tends to inhibit further combustion. The char layer is relatively fragile. It may break off to expose fresh combustible foam. PUR also contributes to fire growth in a fully-developed fire, giving off black smoke and toxic fumes, including hydrogen cyanide above 850oC.

 

PIR, a variant of PUR having improved fire properties, is difficult to ignite and exhibits a pronounced charring which enables it to withstand fire for longer, but is ultimately combustible.

 

Phenolic foam is difficult to ignite. It chars, gives off fumes and burns with black smoke, but flame spread, smoke and toxic fume generation are moderate.

 

Rockwool mineral fibre, inorganic rock fibres bonded together with small amount of combustible binder, is non-combustible."

[hutch]

Indeed, normally a catalogue of errors / misjudgements etc contribute to a such a disaster. One thing that is under the microscope is that people were told to remain in their flats, which was clearly the wrong advice. You can't blame that on the current govt. A firefighter at the scene claimed that they had the necessary manpower and equipment but that nothing would have prepared them for the speed and ferocity in which the fire took hold.

 

I'm not absolving the govt of blame as they may be partially culpable, but there are many players involved, including:

The materials manufacturers

Building Control

Planning departments

Installers

Fire safety advisors

The TMO responsible for the building

Health & Safety

Past and current Governments

Local Council

 

etc. etc. etc

 

I hope whoever is responsible is that they face justice through the courts, although I wont hold my breath

To take a leaf out of the aviation safety culture safety textbook, there is a case for no prosecutions if it leads to openness transparency and safer homes.

 

If we start out on a witchhunt, a lot of important information will be withheld.

 

"You have the right to remain silent, but anything you do say may be ... etc etc...."

[moonraker]

To take a leaf out of the aviation safety culture safety textbook, there is a case for no prosecutions if it leads to openness transparency and safer homes.

 

If we start out on a witchhunt, a lot of important information will be withheld.

 

"You have the right to remain silent, but anything you do say may be ... etc etc...."

 

So true, and when blame does start getting aportioned it is rarely the senior policy makers and bean counters who are in the firing line. We cannot change what has happened, we can do a great deal to ensure it never happens again and for that we need total transparency no cover ups.

[shurlock]

To take a leaf out of the aviation safety culture safety textbook, there is a case for no prosecutions if it leads to openness transparency and safer homes.

 

If we start out on a witchhunt, a lot of important information will be withheld.

 

"You have the right to remain silent, but anything you do say may be ... etc etc...."

 

Agree, spoken like a true consultant.

[Jonnyboy]

On another forum I go on there is one of the firefighters on there. He reckons the number of dead could reach three figures which is horrible. He did though say that fires from white goods are a lot more common than people think.

 

As usual GM us being at absolute cvnt and trying to blame drug dealers for the tragedy.

I bought 2nd hand freezer for a flat and a couple of weeks later it caught fire. Thankfully I found it aflame at about 7am and the fire brigade had it out within minutes. The room was still wrecked, but if it had happened at 1am we could easily have died.

[View From The Top]

As usual GM us being at absolute cvnt and trying to blame drug dealers for the tragedy.

I bought 2nd hand freezer for a flat and a couple of weeks later it caught fire. Thankfully I found it aflame at about 7am and the fire brigade had it out within minutes. The room was still wrecked, but if it had happened at 1am we could easily have died.

 

I'm glad I wasn't the only one to pick up on that.

[aintforever]

The cause of the fire is almost irrelevant, fires will always occur in high-rises just like any property. The issue is how it spread, and the speed at which it did. I am amazed that they are allowed to clad these buildings in flammable material, especially given that the advice is to stay put if there is a fire. I read somewhere online that in Germany buildings over a certain height are not allowed to use this sort of cladding, who is supposed to be making these sort of descisions over here?

 

I just hope that people responsible are held to account.

[Kingsland Red]

Before a product ,like say Celotex, comes to the UK construction market it would be tested at the BRE (Building Research Establishment) facilities at Warrington, and given a relevant certificate for its inertness, or spread of flame etc.

This certification would be produced by the cladding contractor for the design team to submit to the local building control authority / local fire officer for any project. If the BRE certification is satisfactory then the onus would surely be on them.

However, if the cladding should have been compartmentated at each flats boundary, i.e. at floor level, the floor above and each side; with an inert material such as Supalux or a Gyproc Fireline board, then this would be a failure of the design teaming not specifying this.

 

Update : Celotex RS5000 has a Class 0 fire rating which is the nearest to inert you can get and is required for all public buildings - stations, airports etc

https://www.celotex.co.uk/products/rs5000

Edited 15 June, 2017 by Kingsland Red

[badgerx16]

The building had a history of electrical issues, including power surges that caused domestic appliances to fail.

[buctootim]

Hopefully to put your mind at rest Tim, this is a brief table how each of the insulation materials burn."

 

Thanks for the info Fizzy. Appreciated

[whelk]

The cause of the fire is almost irrelevant, fires will always occur in high-rises just like any property. The issue is how it spread, and the speed at which it did. I am amazed that they are allowed to clad these buildings in flammable material, especially given that the advice is to stay put if there is a fire. I read somewhere online that in Germany buildings over a certain height are not allowed to use this sort of cladding, who is supposed to be making these sort of descisions over here?

 

I just hope that people responsible are held to account.

 

Fires do not always occur. There are far less now and that is why the Fire Service is being scaled back. Electrical goods and furniture should be far safer than previous. And chip pans practically non existent now.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Do these type of buildings have fire certificates?

 

 

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[aintforever]

Fires do not always occur. There are far less now and that is why the Fire Service is being scaled back. Electrical goods and furniture should be far safer than previous. And chip pans practically non existent now.

 

There are still almost 40,000 dwelling fires a year in the UK.

[Kingsland Red]

Multiple occupation buildings would have a fire certificate

[suewhistle]

This tragedy is the result of multiple factors including but not limited to; Current Fire Risk Assessment legislation and its application, failure to acknowledge known problems with this particular insulating material especially when used in high rise buildings, cutting local authority budgets, devolution of social housing management, maintenance and delivery to third party organisations, resulting in no direct elected representation, paying lip service to residents concerns and complaints, lack of any fire safety or fire awareness education for residents, basic building design relying on fire containment at the expense of effective escape and evacuation provision. Fire regulations have evolved over a long period, starting with the legislative response to Tooley Street fire in 1861 and has essentially been a bolting the stable door approach ever since. The fire services, fire safety specialists and fire engineers have highlighted many such issues, tragically to often they are the ones left saying we told you so.

 

A good summary. In this case the residents have also been saying we told you so. After the 2009 fire at Lakanal House the then Housing Minister (Gavin Barwell) delayed a review into fire safety and MPs voted against having houses "fit for habitation" in last year's housing bill, so I'm sorry OldNick, but this is indeed a class or political issue.

 

In Southampton they went to the expense of retrofitting tower block sprinklers, so there is a lot that can be done with a bit of money and political will, and who controls that at the moment?

[Guided Missile]

As usual GM us being at absolute cvnt and trying to blame drug dealers for the tragedy.

I'll have to stop trying to blame drug dealers for sh !t. The last thing I'd want is to upset that sector of our society....

[Saint86]

Of course it is. You think fire-proof building materials are some sort of revelation un-affordable in 21C London? Materials on the cheap is what they were and I predict a scandal in the making providing it's not covered up (excuse pun).

 

So the council spent £10m on the refurb, and the fire proof cladding costs circa £2 more per square metre. So somewhere in the region of £5-6k.

 

You still think this is down to the council underspending on the cladding to save money? 5K on 10million? Yeah right...

[shurlock]

I'll have to stop trying to blame drug dealers for sh !t. The last thing I'd want is to upset that sector of our society....

 

Then back up what you're saying -or stop being a weasel cûnt.

[Whitey Grandad]

Multiple occupation buildings would have a fire certificate

 

From the Huffington Post:

 

Introduced in 2006, the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order meant building owners were responsible for assessing fire risk in multi-occupancy buildings, not the fire service.

 

The old system of fire brigades issuing safety certificates was scrapped in the biggest revision of fire safety guidance since 1971.

[saintsdan]

A good summary. In this case the residents have also been saying we told you so. After the 2009 fire at Lakanal House the then Housing Minister (Gavin Barwell) delayed a review into fire safety and MPs voted against having houses "fit for habitation" in last year's housing bill, so I'm sorry OldNick, but this is indeed a class or political issue.

 

In Southampton they went to the expense of retrofitting tower block sprinklers, so there is a lot that can be done with a bit of money and political will, and who controls that at the moment?

 

Indeed!

 

http://www.ukconstructionweek.com/news/construction-buzz/1413-former-housing-ministers-under-pressure-over-grenfell-fire-construction-buzz-120?utm_medium=email&utm_term=&utm_content=Read%20More%20%3E%3E&utm_source=UK%20Construction%20Week&utm_campaign=Ex-ministers%20face%20scrutiny%20on%20fire%20safety%20standards%20%7C%20Construction%20Buzz%20%23120

[Johnny Bognor]

One of the key functions of the EU is to protect it's citizens...

 

Why when there are 70,000 casualties from fire each year across Europe, is there not a coherent strategy and regulation to enforce it from the EU?????

 

Surely our safety is as much the responsibility of the EU as it is the UK government????

 

It's not as if they don't know about it... there are enough lobby groups...

http://firesafeeurope.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Fire-Safe-Paper-Final-web.pdf

[sadoldgit]

There are still almost 40,000 dwelling fires a year in the UK.

 

And the way that any deaths are recorded have been changed so only those that die at the scene are recorded as part of the stats. Any that die later in hospital are not recorded as a fatality as part of the fire death stats making it look like these fatality numbers are falling.

[shurlock]

One of the key functions of the EU is to protect it's citizens...

 

Why when there are 70,000 casualties from fire each year across Europe, is there not a coherent strategy and regulation to enforce it from the EU?????

 

Surely our safety is as much the responsibility of the EU as it is the UK government????

 

It's not as if they don't know about it... there are enough lobby groups...

http://firesafeeurope.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Fire-Safe-Paper-Final-web.pdf

 

Can't have it both ways, my sweet little Balders.

 

There isn't a common regulatory framework on fire safety of buildings. Fire safety rules and building material standards are a matter for national authorities. Things you'd undoubtedly applaud as part of #takingbackcontrol (technically keeping control but that's moot). Had the shoe been on the other foot (before the tragedy), you'd have doubtless moaned about overweening, health and safety obsessed, sclerotic bureaucrats from Brussels.

Edited 16 June, 2017 by shurlock

[Johnny Bognor]

Can't have it both ways, my sweet little Balders.

 

There isn't a common regulatory framework on fire safety of buildings. Fire safety rules and building material standards are a matter for national authorities. Things you'd undoubtedly applaud as part of #takingbackcontrol (technically keeping control but that's moot). Had the shoe been on the other foot (before the tragedy), you'd have doubtless moaned about overweening, health and safety obsessed, sclerotic bureaucrats from Brussels.

 

Maybe, but many of those who are attacking the Govt for lack of action (not just on here, but on social media), seem to let the EU off the hook. They can have it both ways I take it???

But hey, the GDPR legislation which took 7 years to compile, means you have the right not to receive a spam email. Great.

[buctootim]

Maybe, but many of those who are attacking the Govt for lack of action (not just on here, but on social media), seem to let the EU off the hook. They can have it both ways I take it???

But hey, the GDPR legislation which took 7 years to compile, means you have the right not to receive a spam email. Great.

 

How can you have strong views on the EU when you clearly have absolutely no idea how it works?

http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-policy-areas/in-what-areas-can-the-eu-legislate.html

[whelk]

And the way that any deaths are recorded have been changed so only those that die at the scene are recorded as part of the stats. Any that die later in hospital are not recorded as a fatality as part of the fire death stats making it look like these fatality numbers are falling.

 

this was from 2013 http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/explaining-the-steep-decline-in-the-frequency-of-fires/

[Guided Missile]

I don't know about you lot, but if my fridge exploded and set fire to my kitchen, my first thought would probably not be to pack a suitcase and bag up my designer gear...

[shurlock]

Maybe, but many of those who are attacking the Govt for lack of action (not just on here, but on social media), seem to let the EU off the hook. They can have it both ways I take it???

But hey, the GDPR legislation which took 7 years to compile, means you have the right not to receive a spam email. Great.

 

Maybe . Maybe its blatant, shameless hypocrisy Balders.

 

Contrary to the rubbish you read, the EU isn't some quasi-state, intruding on every aspect of our lives. National governments call the shots.

 

Specifically it would appear you don't understand the basic functional division of labour between EU and national regulation. EU regulation is largely focussed on activity that has cross-border impacts. Building design and fire safety regulation is essentially local. Buildings don't travel. This is especially the case as issues such as building design (which in turn affects fire safety) touches on differences in culture, style and taste. No doubt you'd applaud this desire to respect national diversity.

 

Btw where's this new-found interest in health and safety come from Balders? I thought health and safety was right up there with political correctness as a scourge on modern society for your sorts?

Edited 16 June, 2017 by shurlock

[Lord Duckhunter]

From the Huffington Post:

 

Introduced in 2006, the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order meant building owners were responsible for assessing fire risk in multi-occupancy buildings, not the fire service.

 

The old system of fire brigades issuing safety certificates was scrapped in the biggest revision of fire safety guidance since 1971.

 

Under Labour?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[do i not like fizzy pop]

More of a concern is whether tower blocks designed and built in the 1960s/1970s are now fit for purpose almost 50 years on. Any changes to regenerate these blocks are little more than polishing turds

[do i not like fizzy pop]

Maybe, but many of those who are attacking the Govt for lack of action (not just on here, but on social media), seem to let the EU off the hook. They can have it both ways I take it???

But hey, the GDPR legislation which took 7 years to compile, means you have the right not to receive a spam email. Great.

 

Sorry Johnny, the European Standards on both Building Regulations and Fire Standards are more stringent than the British Standards. If you look at the Part B Building Regulations it clearly states that while the British Standards are sufficient to pass European Standards are the preferred higher standard

[Whitey Grandad]

Under Labour?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I wouldn't seek to make political capital out of this disaster, but it's definitely something that could have been avoided, or at the least mitigated. Pesonally I have never liked tower blocks be they for domestic or office use. I was even less convinced when I discovered that low-rise housing can achieve a similar density to high-rise so I never saw the need for them. We shall need to wait for the full enquiry but some steps need to be taken promptly before anything similar happens. Sprinklers could have been fitted for about £200,000 I believe, the gas pipes in the main access column were reportedly unprotected despite regular protests, the power supply appears to have had surges, the fire safety advice now seems totally misguided.

 

But above all, why was there a need for the cladding anyway?

[Whitey Grandad]

More of a concern is whether tower blocks designed and built in the 1960s/1970s are now fit for purpose almost 50 years on. Any changes to regenerate these blocks are little more than polishing turds

 

My uncle and aunt were moved into one in North London in the 1960s. There were two lifts, one stopping at odd floors and one at even. You didn't need many young mothers with prams to make the waiting times unbelievable. The flats were lovely inside and a big improvement on their previous housing but I never felt safe in them.

[buctootim]

above all, why was there a need for the cladding anyway?

 

Presumably for insulation and to reduce heating bills - but exterior cladding is expensive, especially on a tower block. Would have been safer and cheaper to line the exterior walls from within the flats

[shurlock]

Some more detail

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/manufacturer-of-cladding-on-grenfell-tower-identified-as-omnis-exteriors?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[Batman]

Tragic accident = rioting for ansewers Tragic terrorist attack = candles and "buisness as usual" i dont get this country

[shurlock]

Tragic accident = rioting for ansewers Tragic terrorist attack = candles and "buisness as usual" i dont get this country

 

It's really not that complicated, no more complicated than boiling an egg or making some toast.

 

Fire in a social housing complex= want answers from relevant, identifiable authorities that have a statutory and common law duty to ensure the building's safety and maintenance.

Terrorist attack by a small network of private individuals= who are you going to seek answers from?

[Lord Duckhunter]

I wouldn't seek to make political capital out of this disaster,

 

Shame you're not running the Labour Party then

 

 

 

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