There, but for the grace of Les .....

[baggytrousers]

Really interesting article from Sunderland fans comparing their situation with ours :

 

http://rokerreport.sbnation.com/2017/5/28/15696706/southampton-a-club-on-the-other-side-of-the-looking-glass

 

This season has been a pretty Meh... season for everyone but we're still a well-run club with a lot of potential upside.

 

Rather be in our shoes than a lot of other clubs.

[Heisenberg]

Decent article and while Sunderland would probably swap with every Premier league club the message is simple.

 

Sunderland are in the mess they are in as they started to accept mediocrity. Once you do that its difficult to reverse.

 

Not saying Puel will turn us into Sunderland but under Puel we will be (best case) same as the rest, not best of the rest

[Badger]

I work with a Sunderland supporter who expressed the same disbelief that we might consider changing manager after a season they could currently only dream of.

[Micky]

I work with a Sunderland supporter who expressed the same disbelief that we might consider changing manager after a season they could currently only dream of.

Don't gloat at him too much, our next man is going to have to deliver something pretty special in order to last more than one season. Interesting to see that they credit Les for much of our success whilst lots of experts on here would like to see him gone. If we were to offload him I don't think he would be of of work for very long at all.

 

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

Edited 28 May, 2017 by Micky

[East Kent Saint]

Even B Sam complains that he only had half the transfer kitty he was told he'd get before he signed up . Previous managers have said the Sunderland club was toxic and needed a radical shake up , though they never said exactly what was wrong , only that the whole stable needed clearing !

[Toadhall Saint]

Don't gloat at him too much, our next man is going to have to deliver something pretty special in order to last more than one season. Interesting to see that they credit Les for much of our success whilst lots of experts on here would like to see him gone. If we were to offload him I don't think he would be of of work for very long at all.

 

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

 

We'd be mad to off load Les IMHO - major part of our success what ever anyone else thinks.

[saintmatt]

I was abroad for many of the meltdowns this season and every person I spoke to, when they found out I was a saints fan, would say how much us lot must be loving it all right now

 

Sadly I had to say that wasn't quite the case

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Badger]

Don't gloat at him too much, our next man is going to have to deliver something pretty special in order to last more than one season. Interesting to see that they credit Les for much of our success whilst lots of experts on here would like to see him gone. If we were to offload him I don't think he would be of of work for very long at all.

 

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

 

No gloating on my part, I recall how we too were perennial relegation battlers at The Dell. And but for Le Tiss we'd have fallen through the trap door in a few seasons.

[Saint Albert]

No gloating on my part, I recall how we too were perennial relegation battlers at The Dell. And but for Le Tiss we'd have fallen through the trap door in a few seasons.

 

This resonates with me. We have it pretty good compared to previous times. Although it had disappointing aspects, last season was alright, 8th is good in my books and there is potential to do better next year with no extra games on Thursday night.

[Golac's Iron Gonads]

I'm not a bed wetter by any stretch and found talk of us being drawn into the relegation battle this season ridiculous. However, if we again sell 2 or 3 of our best players (VVD, Bertrand, Cedric, Romeu) this summer and replace them with similar standard replacements we found last summer (Boufal, Højbjerg, Redmond) we could well be following Sunderland into the Championship.

 

Granted Redmond hasn't been terrible but he has blown hot and cold and is no Mane by any stretch.

[baggytrousers]

I'm not a bed wetter by any stretch and found talk of us being drawn into the relegation battle this season ridiculous. However, if we again sell 2 or 3 of our best players (VVD, Bertrand, Cedric, Romeu) this summer and replace them with similar standard replacements we found last summer (Boufal, Højbjerg, Redmond) we could well be following Sunderland into the Championship.

 

Granted Redmond hasn't been terrible but he has blown hot and cold and is no Mane by any stretch.

 

No. He has been inconsistent but then isn't that to be expected from a player who is actually younger than Jack Stephens ?

 

Incidentally, Hjobjerg is also younger than Stephens (by a couple of years) with Boufal only being four months older than Stephens.

 

It's entirely possible that last summer's purchases were bought to grow into the team rather than being instant like-for-like replacements.

 

We have a lot of promising young players in the squad now whose best football years should be ahead of them.

[The9]

Anyone whinging about our current position needs to take a long hard look at themselves to be honest.

 

Beat Inter, 6 games in European competition, EFL Cup Final, win at Anfield, thrashed West Ham at Olympic Stadium, stuck 4 on Watford and Sunderland, finished 8th despite the season being over in February, a ridiculous schedule, key injuries to two star players, missing piles of chances when dominating matches, conceding at the first opportunity a load of times, and choosing to test out an U23 centre back with no Premier League experience for 4 months. Loads to be pleased about.

[Red]

I'm not a bed wetter by any stretch and found talk of us being drawn into the relegation battle this season ridiculous. However, if we again sell 2 or 3 of our best players (VVD, Bertrand, Cedric, Romeu) this summer and replace them with similar standard replacements we found last summer (Boufal, Højbjerg, Redmond) we could well be following Sunderland into the Championship.

 

Granted Redmond hasn't been terrible but he has blown hot and cold and is no Mane by any stretch.

 

Me neither, but remember we finished closer to the regulated teams in points terms than top 6. The form of our last few games has been shocking (for whatever reason), and failing to address this or being complacent in anyway whatsoever is where our gradual demise begins - maybe not next season or the one after, but like Sunderland and others that's where it starts.

 

We need the club to be honest and treat the fans with respect - we are no longer on the "Southampton Way" journey to being top 4, Champions League or ultimately aiming to win the EPL. What we are is a club trying to run as a business and live within our means and hopely remain top half of the EPL. All of this is fine with me, as long as we have a plan to achieve this and are honest about it. With the income we have we should easily achieve this, even with selling the best players each season - let's reinvest what we make. The club are telling us we are now in a financial situation where we do not need to sell anyone - well then if we do sell, don't replace on the cheap - use all of the gains for a near like for like replacement. It seems (and yes I don't really know for sure) that Kat is not as flush as we thought or die hard passionate about owing Saints for her father's sake.

 

This not only applies to playing staff - for example, have we adequately replaced our scouts, recruitment team, coaches, youth development teams etc. etc.

[Charlie Wayman]

Could we not sell them (Sunderland) Reed and get in a cheap replacement? Should make no difference to pour league performance as we have a philosophy and a long term plan in which personnel have no impact on our progress upwards.

[Crab Lungs]

Anyone whinging about our current position needs to take a long hard look at themselves to be honest.

 

Beat Inter, 6 games in European competition, EFL Cup Final, win at Anfield, thrashed West Ham at Olympic Stadium, stuck 4 on Watford and Sunderland, finished 8th despite the season being over in February, a ridiculous schedule, key injuries to two star players, missing piles of chances when dominating matches, conceding at the first opportunity a load of times, and choosing to test out an U23 centre back with no Premier League experience for 4 months. Loads to be pleased about.

 

On the face of it, yes but seriously... you enjoyed watching the rest of the crap which took up 2/3 of the season? I didn't.

[Saint-Fred]

No. He has been inconsistent but then isn't that to be expected from a player who is actually younger than Jack Stephens ?

 

Incidentally, Hjobjerg is also younger than Stephens (by a couple of years) with Boufal only being four months older than Stephens.

 

It's entirely possible that last summer's purchases were bought to grow into the team rather than being instant like-for-like replacements.

 

We have a lot of promising young players in the squad now whose best football years should be ahead of them.

 

Did I read we had the second youngest average age behind Spurs (I think it was)?

I still think we have a really talented squad of players.

[The9]

On the face of it, yes but seriously... you enjoyed watching the rest of the crap which took up 2/3 of the season? I didn't.

 

We were perfectly fine in attacking and creating for far more than 2/3rds of the season. Where we played for low-scoring games in some matches it was usually a sensible tactic too. I went to Israel and was pleased with our 0-0 draw there, for instance.

[The9]

Me neither, but remember we finished closer to the regulated teams in points terms than top 6. The form of our last few games has been shocking (for whatever reason), and failing to address this or being complacent in anyway whatsoever is where our gradual demise begins - maybe not next season or the one after, but like Sunderland and others that's where it starts.

 

We need the club to be honest and treat the fans with respect - we are no longer on the "Southampton Way" journey to being top 4, Champions League or ultimately aiming to win the EPL. What we are is a club trying to run as a business and live within our means and hopely remain top half of the EPL. All of this is fine with me, as long as we have a plan to achieve this and are honest about it. With the income we have we should easily achieve this, even with selling the best players each season - let's reinvest what we make. The club are telling us we are now in a financial situation where we do not need to sell anyone - well then if we do sell, don't replace on the cheap - use all of the gains for a near like for like replacement. It seems (and yes I don't really know for sure) that Kat is not as flush as we thought or die hard passionate about owing Saints for her father's sake.

 

This not only applies to playing staff - for example, have we adequately replaced our scouts, recruitment team, coaches, youth development teams etc. etc.

 

Or people could just accept we underperformed due to being handicapped by existing fatigue for most of the season and the need to rest players. Next season we won't have to travel to the middle east in midweek and we're unlikely to have to play 6 months of the season without being able to pick a team for just one game a week. Next season if we come 8th and haven't come close to challenging for a cup or threatening the top 6 it WILL be an underachievement.

[Saint-Fred]

Or people could just accept we underperformed due to being handicapped by existing fatigue for most of the season and the need to rest players. Next season we won't have to travel to the middle east in midweek and we're unlikely to have to play 6 months of the season without being able to pick a team for just one game a week. Next season if we come 8th and haven't come close to challenging for a cup or threatening the top 6 it WILL be an underachievement.

 

Or people can have their own opinions? Or do we all have to share yours Adolf?

[The9]

Or people can have their own opinions? Or do we all have to share yours Adolf?

 

Yeah, good logic. States opinion, someone else states a different opinion, complains about being made to consider someone else's opinion. Nice one.

[Heisenberg]

Quit while youre behind The9

[The9]

Quit while youre behind The9

 

If you'd taken your own advice you'd have left here at least 5 years ago.

[Micky]

Or people can have their own opinions? Or do we all have to share yours Adolf?

That's probably one of the most stupid posts I've ever read on here. I take it you're losing this particular debate.

 

Message board, simplest form, a place to air opinion.

 

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

[Heisenberg]

That's probably one of the most stupid posts I've ever read on here. I take it you're losing this particular debate.

 

Message board, simplest form, a place to air opinion.

 

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

 

Lol

 

40% of your posts are about me

40% about other posters

15% just say "this"

5% are about Sants

 

You are fully in the "no opinion" bucket with Trousers and ALWAYS_SFC...... but keep preaching to others

[cellone]

Lol

 

40% of your posts are about me

40% about other posters

15% just say "this"

5% are about Sants

 

You are fully in the "no opinion" bucket with Trousers and ALWAYS_SFC...... but keep preaching to others

Please can you do one of those on me. Would be interested in your result.

[Heisenberg]

Please can you do one of those on me. Would be interested in your result.

 

Youre one of the best poster on here, but partial to the occasional C-word.

 

You dont post about posters, youre too legit for that

[suewhistle]

If you'd taken your own advice you'd have left here at least 5 years ago.

 

We can but dream.

[Saint86]

I work with a Sunderland supporter who expressed the same disbelief that we might consider changing manager after a season they could currently only dream of.

 

Its interesting, that one the one hand people say that once you accept medicrity you are finished... then on the other hand people want us to accept it?

 

Puel was a step backwards this year. Simple as that.

 

You have to move forwards in this league... its that or you do a Fulham, Villa, Sunderland etc... You go down.

 

Sorry to break it to people that live in a fairy world where you comfortably underachieve and stay mid table.

[Golden Balls]

Anyway back to the subject. What I seem to have to mentioned to anyone looking from the outside in - We may have finished 8th, we're happy with that. We're just not happy with how boring it is to watch.

[CB Fry]

Its interesting, that one the one hand people say that once you accept medicrity you are finished... then on the other hand people want us to accept it?

 

Puel was a step backwards this year. Simple as that.

 

You have to move forwards in this league... its that or you do a Fulham, Villa, Sunderland etc... You go down.

 

Sorry to break it to people that live in a fairy world where you comfortably underachieve and stay mid table.

It's not really a fairy world, is it? It's called Stoke.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

Sorry to break it to people that live in a fairy world where you comfortably underachieve and stay mid table.

 

 

8th isn't underachieving. How many times in the past 100 years have we finished 8th or higher?

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Heisenberg]

8th isn't underachieving. How many times in the past 100 years have we finished 8th or higher?

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

In the last 100 years how many sides have finished 8th with 46 points & been as boring as us?

[Saint in Paradise]

On the face of it, yes but seriously... you enjoyed watching the rest of the crap which took up 2/3 of the season? I didn't.

 

Crab Lungs don't forget that The9 does follow Newport closely so Saints must look very good to him compared with them.

[Alain Perrin]

We'd be mad to off load Les IMHO - major part of our success what ever anyone else thinks.

 

This. I can't understand the rants that say, "Puel out, and take Les with you" or similar.

 

Yes, let's get rid of the manager and the person that appoints the manager. Genius.

[Saint86]

8th isn't underachieving. How many times in the past 100 years have we finished 8th or higher?

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

46 points is terrible lord. Surely even you have to admit that? Saying we came 8th does not mitigate for a season that has been a step backwards? The team we had last year would have stayed at least top 6 this year. Certainly above everyone and I would argue that united have been very poor again.

 

But regardless of that, if we continue to accept rubbish like this, we will do a Fulham, villa etc... the ambition will evidently have gone, players will leave, new players won't be as attracted to us, and we will get closer and closer to the relegation zone. In this league you either go forwards or backwards. This year we have gone backwards.

 

Puel may come good (if Les let's him), but this has been a poor season, and the sooner fans act like adults, and call it what it is, the better!

[eurosaint]

46 points is terrible lord. Surely even you have to admit that? Saying we came 8th does not mitigate for a season that has been a step backwards? The team we had last year would have stayed at least top 6 this year. Certainly above everyone and I would argue that united have been very poor again.

 

But regardless of that, if we continue to accept rubbish like this, we will do a Fulham, villa etc... the ambition will evidently have gone, players will leave, new players won't be as attracted to us, and we will get closer and closer to the relegation zone. In this league you either go forwards or backwards. This year we have gone backwards.

 

Puel may come good (if Les let's him), but this has been a poor season, and the sooner fans act like adults, and call it what it is, the better!

 

8th !

[OldNick]

Personally I felt a lot of games under RK were turgid, but with more goals that took peoples minds off it. We must be the most shot shy team since somebody asked Jeremy Corbyn to fire a pop gun

[Whitey Grandad]

8th !

 

Level on points with Bournemouth!

[doddisalegend]

46 points is terrible lord. Surely even you have to admit that? Saying we came 8th does not mitigate for a season that has been a step backwards? The team we had last year would have stayed at least top 6 this year. Certainly above everyone and I would argue that united have been very poor again.

 

 

 

But regardless of that, if we continue to accept rubbish like this, we will do a Fulham, villa etc... the ambition will evidently have gone, players will leave, new players won't be as attracted to us, and we will get closer and closer to the relegation zone. In this league you either go forwards or backwards. This year we have gone backwards.

 

 

 

Puel may come good (if Les let's him), but this has been a poor season, and the sooner fans act like adults, and call it what it is, the better!

 

 

No chance we would have finished 6th this season even if we had kept last seasons team together Arsenal got 4 more points than last season and finished 5th.

 

We were very inconsistent last season and would have had to of been on it every week, this season, to have stayed the same or bettered last years position and points totally.

 

The point is mute though as this seasons team is not last seasons team and this season team had to play more games.

 

There is no problem admitting that this season was poor at times especially the final weeks. But comparing last seasons team to this seasons team is not a straight comparison.

[Mr Biscuits]

How many times does it need to be said?

 

It's not about the final league position, it's about how we got there. Saints could and should have played far better this season than what we saw at times.

 

1) Europa - was a failure. We were at least second best in that group, if not best. The manner of our exit was not acceptable, especially from a manager with Europa experience.

2) several games we should have won such as Stoke, Middlesbrough, West Brom and Hull

3) the apparent Inability of the team to string an attack together all season

4) the utterly pointless rotation system which, I believe, was directly responsible for poor results on the back of good results

5) daft substitutions when not required

 

I'm not saying we should have been challenging top four this season, but we definitely shouldn't be looking at a 16 point gap between us and Everton in 7th. Our final position is a combination of luck and the teams below us having a shocker. Granted, it's not as bad as it could have been, however it's definitely not as good as it should have been either.

[Ultimatt]

2 big reasons why 8th place had such a low points total this year:

- The top 7 scored more points together than any time in the last 10 years (didn't check further back then that). 538 points between them this year compared to 479 and 497 the 2 years prior.

- The new TV deal has levelled the playing field for a lot of clubs that aren't the big 6. Only 6 points separating 10 teams, all taking wins off each other because they're all rich enough now to buy quality players.

 

PREMIER LEAGUE NET SPEND TABLE

20. Southampton -£13.73m

19. Liverpool -£5.10m

18. Swansea £8.16m

17. Hull £9.44m

16. WBA £9.78m

15. Watford £10.92m

14. Bournemouth £12.92m

13. Sunderland £13.46m

12. Chelsea £20.74m

11. Leicester £22.14m

10. Everton £23.04m (Including £50m for the overrated Stones)

9. Tottenham £24.82m

8. Stoke £29.53m

7. Middlesbrough £33.28m

6. West Ham £36.13m

5. Burnley £37.74m

4. Crystal Palace £42.59m

3. Arsenal £87.25m

2. Man Utd £117.17m

1. Man City £151.00m

 

End of the day, we had the lowest net spend (actually made profit despite the new TV deal, go figure). We had Europa unlike 8 of the 9 teams near us (-Leicester). We had key injuries to Austin/VVD. And we reached a cup final. Plenty of reasons why our points total is as low as it is.

[Micky]

Lol

 

40% of your posts are about me

40% about other posters

15% just say "this"

5% are about Sants

 

You are fully in the "no opinion" bucket with Trousers and ALWAYS_SFC...... but keep preaching to others

Did you do those calculations all by yourself, or did you just make up some stats to suit your argument, you know, just like you normally do?

 

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

[Millbrook Saint]

This. I can't understand the rants that say, "Puel out, and take Les with you" or similar.

 

Yes, let's get rid of the manager and the person that appoints the manager. Genius.

 

Totally agree, Les is an employee, if Kat tells him the club has to live within its means, what's he supposed to do. I'm sure he'd love it if Kat told him 'funds are limitless, do what it takes to win the league'. At the end of the day the one person who has seen us through the turmoil is Les Reed, like him or hate him he seems to know what he's doing. At the end of the day he can only do what he can with the resources he has and to me he makes a pretty good fist of it.

 

Puel on the other hand I think has to go, firstly if he's lost the senior players there is normally no way back, it's easy for us to say get rid and replace the players but we aint Man U who have top players queuing up to join them.

 

Secondly the games at home have been awfaul, what is it 17 goals at home all season? our strikers look isolated up front every game with no one providing support, we're good till the final third then run out of ideas. We may have got away with that last season but I'm not confident Puel can turn that around, it just seems against his philosophy to get on to the front foot. This season the teams around and below us were pretty ****e, it only takes a few of them to get their acts together and 17 goals at home will see us in trouble.

[baggytrousers]

In the last 100 years how many sides have finished 8th with 46 points & been as boring as us?

 

And fans like you are treating this 8th place and a cup final as a complete disaster and signs of a poorly run club which is bewildering to the likes of Sunderland fans as stated in the article.

 

To Sunderland fans (and those of many other clubs) our club's level of ambition is far above that of theirs for the last few seasons and they are looking in our direction with envy in their eyes but also as the outstanding example of how a club of our size and resources should be run.

 

Whether Puel should stay or go is another question. Personally I'm sitting at 51% out, 49% in. 8th and a cup final with such a young side is an OK season and clearly many players (Cedric, Puel, KWP, Stephens, Sims, Yoshida, McQueen) have improved a lot under his charge but I'm not convinced by his tactics (variable) and his ability to instill self-belief and motivation in the side.

[positivepete]

Fortunately, the board (like the Sunderland fan)have more perspective than a number of posters on here. The only time in the last 20 years I thought about giving up my season ticket was under Strachan, who ironically, also reached a couple final and had a decent league season, but the football was attritional. I was not calling for his head, I value stability, but I was prepared to vote with my cash. The performances have not been great at home this season, but there are some games where we have shown great promise, and away (except Prague) we played a lot better because we are generally set up as a counter attacking side.

 

We have a young squad, and a manager who was in his first season outside his native country, so the prospects for next season should be better, I am sure Claude has learned a lot this season. If however, he or his wife, have not settled, and / or it is true that there is unrest with key players (fringe players will always moan) then no doubt we will start next season with another manager who has not managed here before. But we seem to cope with that, but as I said at the top, some perspective is required, the football has not been as we would like it, but we achieved the financial milestones of 8th and a cup final. That gives a platform for next season if we are still owned by the current regime.

[eurosaint]

How many times does it need to be said?

 

It's not about the final league position, it's about how we got there. Saints could and should have played far better this season than what we saw at times.

 

1) Europa - was a failure. We were at least second best in that group, if not best. The manner of our exit was not acceptable, especially from a manager with Europa experience.

2) several games we should have won such as Stoke, Middlesbrough, West Brom and Hull

3) the apparent Inability of the team to string an attack together all season

4) the utterly pointless rotation system which, I believe, was directly responsible for poor results on the back of good results

5) daft substitutions when not required

 

I'm not saying we should have been challenging top four this season, but we definitely shouldn't be looking at a 16 point gap between us and Everton in 7th. Our final position is a combination of luck and the teams below us having a shocker. Granted, it's not as bad as it could have been, however it's definitely not as good as it should have been either.

 

Be ready to be quoted on that statement next time we play well and lose ! It's a bit like saying about many teams in the past "they were too good to go down" but they did !

I'm afraid that results over quality is the mantra of the day and bosses like Mourinho play it to perfection (his Man U side is one of the most boring for years yet they have won 2 trophies and qualified for the CL).

Clearly the ideal situation is to play well and achieve a high league position but if you had to choose between one and the other surely you'd go for the placing ??

[hypochondriac]

Be ready to be quoted on that statement next time we play well and lose ! It's a bit like saying about many teams in the past "they were too good to go down" but they did !

I'm afraid that results over quality is the mantra of the day and bosses like Mourinho play it to perfection (his Man U side is one of the most boring for years yet they have won 2 trophies and qualified for the CL).

Clearly the ideal situation is to play well and achieve a high league position but if you had to choose between one and the other surely you'd go for the placing ??

The point is we don't have to choose one over the other. The fact we got one and not the other is part of the problem.

[Kingsland Codger]

How many times does it need to be said?

 

It's not about the final league position, it's about how we got there. Saints could and should have played far better this season than what we saw at times.

 

1) Europa - was a failure. We were at least second best in that group, if not best. The manner of our exit was not acceptable, especially from a manager with Europa experience.

2) several games we should have won such as Stoke, Middlesbrough, West Brom and Hull

3) the apparent Inability of the team to string an attack together all season

4) the utterly pointless rotation system which, I believe, was directly responsible for poor results on the back of good results

5) daft substitutions when not required

 

I'm not saying we should have been challenging top four this season, but we definitely shouldn't be looking at a 16 point gap between us and Everton in 7th. Our final position is a combination of luck and the teams below us having a shocker. Granted, it's not as bad as it could have been, however it's definitely not as good as it should have been either.

 

We beat Middlesbrough both at home and away - what more is the team supposed to do?

[cellone]

Whilst Les is repellent to me on a personal level. He has done his job, sometimes very well. I do feel that he chanced his arm this season and we only just got away with it. We missed a great chance in Europe with the other teams being so poor in our group, it just doesn't seem like we go for it (previous years also) in this competition.

 

It is hard to be satisfied with this season when we could have easily done better, not massively I'll grant you but better. Are we in some sort of crisis? I don't think so. Just ballsed it up a little. It really could have been a lot worse and to my mind it's only luck that it isn't.

 

Like I said Reed is mostly good at his job and should continue but I'd be happy if the slimy git kept his pumpkin face out of the camera for a season.

[Mr Biscuits]

We beat Middlesbrough both at home and away - what more is the team supposed to do?

 

Ok, not sure why that got in there.

But you just concentrate on the one error in my post and ignore the rest if you want.... oh wait.....