Choice: Saints finish 2017 season 8th but Boring, or 13th and Exciting

[eddie]

I read a lot that peoples frustration with Puel is negative football. Others claim that 'I would have taken 8th and cup final at the start of the season'.

To see how much value people place on this, I wonder:

 

Would you rather we lost more games 4-3, with lots of goals and excitement, instead of getting a 0-0 point, but end up finishing 13 th ?

 

I pick 13th because if we had not ground out maybe 4 points with boring draws, we'd be at 13th in the table.

 

I am assuming that our other wins/losses were the same result, with a few goals more either side.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

P.S. I would like to put a poll but don't know how!

[Greenridge]

Why can't you have 8th and more entertainment? They're not mutually exclusive.

[Saint Garrett]

How about 8/9th but playing some football which is good to sit and watch and actually makes you want to go to games?!

[Bad Wolf]

Of course there's no reason we can't have both but I

f it was a direct choice between the two, 8th and boring every time.

 

Couldn't care less how "entertaining" we are as long as we win.

[Lighthouse]

All I want is for us not to look like we're playing for a 0-0 draw every game. Especially at home to Be'er f**king Sheva.

 

If we'd attacked teams like HBS, Bompey and Hull at St Mary's we'd have absolutely d*cked them, not lost 4-3.

[Heisenberg]

Of course there's no reason we can't have both but I

f it was a direct choice between the two, 8th and boring every time.

 

Couldn't care less how "entertaining" we are as long as we win.

 

easily said when you don't go to games or watch games on TV (or streams weekly) - just the occasional look in the paper and "oh great we are 8th"

 

2014: Mopo finished 8th. Zero complaints about the league finish, some (incl me) annoyed about the FA cup team and performance.

2015: Koeman finished 7th. No complaints

2016: Koeman finish 6th. No complaints

2017: Puel finished 8th - lots of complaints as football was dreadful

 

7th was the highest anyone expected (see https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?57444-Winning-quot-OUR-quot-league ) so no grumbles about finishing 8th. Its all about his horrendous style and that players don't like him

[ALWAYS_SFC]

easily said when you don't go to games or watch games on TV (or streams weekly) - just the occasional look in the paper and "oh great we are 8th"

 

2014: Mopo finished 8th. Zero complaints about the league finish, some (incl me) annoyed about the FA cup team and performance.

2015: Koeman finished 7th. No complaints

2016: Koeman finish 6th. No complaints

2017: Puel finished 8th - lots of complaints as football was dreadful

 

7th was the highest anyone expected (see https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?57444-Winning-quot-OUR-quot-league ) so no grumbles about finishing 8th. Its all about his horrendous style and that players don't like him

 

Lies !! there were complaints during the awful run we had under Koeman..

[Bad Wolf]

easily said when you don't go to games or watch games on TV (or streams weekly) - just the occasional look in the paper and "oh great we are 8th"

 

2014: Mopo finished 8th. Zero complaints about the league finish, some (incl me) annoyed about the FA cup team and performance.

2015: Koeman finished 7th. No complaints

2016: Koeman finish 6th. No complaints

2017: Puel finished 8th - lots of complaints as football was dreadful

 

7th was the highest anyone expected (see https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?57444-Winning-quot-OUR-quot-league ) so no grumbles about finishing 8th. Its all about his horrendous style and that players don't like him

 

I go to games when I can (don't live in Southampton) and watch most games via an online stream. Have to work, I'd say 1 in every 4 or 5 games on average but I'm sure there are people that have to work and miss more games than that. The football is poor, there's no denying that but I wasn't talking exclusively about THIS season. I was answering the question from a general point of view. So I'm not really thinking about the "But we only finished 8th because the PL was poor this season" argument.

 

Wins themselves are enough entertainment for me. Fancy football is nice but you don't get points for it. It's a results based business.

[Heisenberg]

Lies !! there were complaints during the awful run we had under Koeman..

 

There was a few grumbles - but from maybe half a dozen people. In general most were fully behind Koeman when he finished 6th and 7th

[eurosaint]

If we ever finish 13th (or thereabouts) there would be outrage (mainly by the 'usual suspects') about how it is a 'results game' and lower than we have been used to !

I can live with either but as already been said, they are not mutually exclusive !

[Heisenberg]

I go to games when I can (don't live in Southampton) and watch most games via an online stream. Have to work, I'd say 1 in every 4 or 5 games on average but I'm sure there are people that have to work and miss more games than that. The football is poor, there's no denying that but I wasn't talking exclusively about THIS season. I was answering the question from a general point of view. So I'm not really thinking about the "But we only finished 8th because the PL was poor this season" argument.

 

Wins themselves are enough entertainment for me. Fancy football is nice but you don't get points for it. It's a results based business.

 

I understand - however we've won a few games this season and I've not enjoyed the performance so much that its taken away from the victory.

[mrfahaji]

There was a few grumbles - but from maybe half a dozen people. In general most were fully behind Koeman when he finished 6th and 7th

 

Not sure that's true. We were playing horrendously and it didn't look like changing. The second half of the season surge was certainly a surprise to me, as for many others I suspect.

[mrfahaji]

I understand - however we've won a few games this season and I've not enjoyed the performance so much that its taken away from the victory.

 

Have there also been games that we've lost but you've enjoyed, or as enjoying a loss is unrealistic, at least seen the positives? Middlesbrough at home was an extremely dull win, but West Ham at home was a bit of a freak loss mainly down to goalkeeping errors.

[Pamplemousse]

If we were winning more often, nobody would be talking about how we played

 

At times, the way we played under Koeman was dreadful

[HKsaint]

If you want excitement, find one always in relegation battle, e.g. Watford, Burnley. saints don't suit you

[John B]

I would be very surprised if a team in 13th place played exciting football most teams in the bottom half play to stay in the PL

[View From The Top]

Lies !! there were complaints during the awful run we had under Koeman..

 

Yep, plenty suggesting he was close to the sack as we were so bad.

 

Norwich (A) remains one of the very worst performances I've ever seen from a Saints team.

[Tom & Gerry]

We did play some awful football this season but not as often as some people suggest. Most of the games we won we played well. Away from home we generally played well " easy on the eye" as Martin Tyler described it. A lot of time at home we played nice football but had no luck or lacked a finisher. The number of awful games was perhaps only a little above our average.

[Saint-Fred]

Of course there's no reason we can't have both but I

f it was a direct choice between the two, 8th and boring every time.

 

Couldn't care less how "entertaining" we are as long as we win.

 

Why? What does 8th give you that 13th doesn't? Being a long distance supporter it might give you bragging rights I suppose but as someone who has to watch it every week..playing good football and finishing 13th would be something to be proud of...however if you play good football you undoubtedly would finish higher than 13th this year. the bottom half were as bad as I ever remember. How many times did commentators say how rubbish games have been and didn't that scouser say live on air something like..this is why sky are losing viewers?

The standard of the bottom lot have been poor and it cost Arsenal fourth as they got more points than last year yet finish fifth. However the top 6 (who weren't any better than last year..(with the exception of Chelsea and maybe Liverpool) found it extremely easy against the teams from 8th down.

Edited 24 May, 2017 by Saint-Fred

[Saint-Fred]

We did play some awful football this season but not as often as some people suggest. Most of the games we won we played well. Away from home we generally played well " easy on the eye" as Martin Tyler described it. A lot of time at home we played nice football but had no luck or lacked a finisher. The number of awful games was perhaps only a little above our average.

 

Everton at home was poor even though we won..I would agree we played some "easy on the eye" football at times. However that's easy when you are playing at backwards often and having lots of possession in areas which won't hurt the opposition.

Our best performances against Liverpool were not footballing master pieces or pleasing on the eye.

I will say Puel gets the team playing consistent. I still think ( last few games excepted) that we played pretty much the same week in and week out.

It worked away against the lower teams as being at home teams had to be more open but at home the slow build up let teams (who were defensive anyway) to get 8 or more players back in the box. This meant the crossing game was a waste of time with our players (if they got in the middle) being severely out numbered.

How many times did we you see a game when you thought we stepped up a gear? We carried on playing the same game for 90 minutes, the pace rarely changed.

Our play was alright never great and rarely really poor. "Average "I would say.

If we have Puel next year, I suspect it will be more of the same..not saying that's good or bad...just "average".

[nta786]

If we were winning more often, nobody would be talking about how we played

 

At times, the way we played under Koeman was dreadful

 

I agree here. At the end of the day, goals are entertainment...

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

As I've said before, if all those boring 0-0 games had ended 3-3 or 4-4 we'd have ended up in exactly the same league position and I don't think anybody would be calling for Puel to be axed.

[John Boy Saint]

As I've said before, if all those boring 0-0 games had ended 3-3 or 4-4 we'd have ended up in exactly the same league position and I don't think anybody would be calling for Puel to be axed.

Spot on...... if you walked out of SMS after results like that, you might get a bit piddled off at the result, but you would feel thoroughly entertained so that would smokescreen the issues in the team. The fact that we don't even look like being capable of scoring is what is getting most people's goat.

[simo]

As I've said before, if all those boring 0-0 games had ended 3-3 or 4-4 we'd have ended up in exactly the same league position and I don't think anybody would be calling for Puel to be axed.

 

No they wouldn't people pay their money to experience that joy and adrenaline rush you get when your team scores a goal and that has been in short supply this season!

[Tom & Gerry]

Everton at home was poor even though we won..I would agree we played some "easy on the eye" football at times. However that's easy when you are playing at backwards often and having lots of possession in areas which won't hurt the opposition.

Our best performances against Liverpool were not footballing master pieces or pleasing on the eye.

I will say Puel gets the team playing consistent. I still think ( last few games excepted) that we played pretty much the same week in and week out.

It worked away against the lower teams as being at home teams had to be more open but at home the slow build up let teams (who were defensive anyway) to get 8 or more players back in the box. This meant the crossing game was a waste of time with our players (if they got in the middle) being severely out numbered.

How many times did we you see a game when you thought we stepped up a gear? We carried on playing the same game for 90 minutes, the pace rarely changed.

Our play was alright never great and rarely really poor. "Average "I would say.

If we have Puel next year, I suspect it will be more of the same..not saying that's good or bad...just "average".

 

I thought Everton was descent but it's all subjective of course and yes you can complain about the tactics but in my book awful football is either Branfoot/ Pullis style football, when the players don't put in the effort or show skill or when we are getting hammered.

[doddisalegend]

Why? What does 8th give you that 13th doesn't? Being a long distance supporter it might give you bragging rights I suppose but as someone who has to watch it every week..playing good football and finishing 13th would be something to be proud of...however if you play good football you undoubtedly would finish higher than 13th this year. the bottom half were as bad as I ever remember. How many times did commentators say how rubbish games have been and didn't that scouser say live on air something like..this is why sky are losing viewers?

The standard of the bottom lot have been poor and it cost Arsenal fourth as they got more points than last year yet finish fifth. However the top 6 (who weren't any better than last year..(with the exception of Chelsea and maybe Liverpool) found it extremely easy against the teams from 8th down.

 

That is patently untrue all of them have more points than last season as even you pointed Arsenal picked up less points last season and finished 2nd. It was pretty obvious after last season the big boys got a wake up call and set about bringing in mangers and players to improve themselves which has clearly paid off as they have gone back to dominating the league again this season.

[fanimal]

I think you have to separate out the home and away form and results, home was so poor its not surprising most fans are disillusioned with Puel. Then you have to say why not 1-0 and 0-1 v Liverpool not two awful goalless draws and crowing about them! (besides an extra point). I am still really upset after Sunday, actually depressed.

[eelpie]

I read a lot that peoples frustration with Puel is negative football. Others claim that 'I would have taken 8th and cup final at the start of the season'.

To see how much value people place on this, I wonder:

 

Would you rather we lost more games 4-3, with lots of goals and excitement, instead of getting a 0-0 point, but end up finishing 13 th ?

 

I pick 13th because if we had not ground out maybe 4 points with boring draws, we'd be at 13th in the table.

 

I am assuming that our other wins/losses were the same result, with a few goals more either side.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

P.S. I would like to put a poll but don't know how!

 

 

In my opinion it's irrelevant whatever position we ended the season at, though thank goodness we weren't relegated.

 

What is important is how we build on what has or has not been achieved. We could have ended up an exciting 13th, yet once again find optimism dissipate when key players are flogged (for cheap bucks again) to the rich clubs during the summer.

 

Or after a boring 8th place when goals have been scarce, it might be clearer to Les and co at last just what they realistically have to do in the transfer market to repair and improve both team and management styles, because we have too often performed well below our capabilities.

 

I wish I could be hopeful.

[Saint-Fred]

That is patently untrue all of them have more points than last season as even you pointed Arsenal picked up less points last season and finished 2nd. It was pretty obvious after last season the big boys got a wake up call and set about bringing in mangers and players to improve themselves which has clearly paid off as they have gone back to dominating the league again this season.

 

Have you watched those teams? take Spurs for example...they are about the same as last year yet have got more points and more goals..that's due to regression from the bottom half rather than the top 6 improving...look where the top teams got to in Europe?

[Kingsbridge Saint]

The league should start deducting a point from each team when it finishes 0-0. That would sort it out. One up front at home - no thanks.

[doddisalegend]

Have you watched those teams? take Spurs for example...they are about the same as last year yet have got more points and more goals..that's due to regression from the bottom half rather than the top 6 improving...look where the top teams got to in Europe?

 

So last year when we got more points it wasn't progression it was just the teams below us were dross...

[kwsaint]

We finished above Bournemouth on goal difference. Which of the two would you rather have to watch each week? Be honest!

 

I know that the expectation is much lower at Bournemouth and they are just happy to be there, but it does look as if everyone is enjoying themselves more. Football at Dean Court is much more entertaining.

 

Which is why I am firmly on the Puel out side.

[Saint86]

I read a lot that peoples frustration with Puel is negative football. Others claim that 'I would have taken 8th and cup final at the start of the season'.

To see how much value people place on this, I wonder:

 

Would you rather we lost more games 4-3, with lots of goals and excitement, instead of getting a 0-0 point, but end up finishing 13 th ?

 

I pick 13th because if we had not ground out maybe 4 points with boring draws, we'd be at 13th in the table.

 

I am assuming that our other wins/losses were the same result, with a few goals more either side.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

P.S. I would like to put a poll but don't know how!

 

Pants analogy IMO. If saints had been more attacking we'd have been a lot closer to Everton. The number of games we've drawn or lost this game becuase puel didn't know how to win them is a joke.

 

The last 3 at home (Stoke, Hull, United) are prime examples.

 

If we'd attacked more and been more "exciting" we'd have had a shed load more points. At the end of the day, if we'd done much worse than 46 we'd be calling it a relegation scrap.

 

As fans, I think we need to stop trying to justify what a cack season we've had. The only saving grace is that we got to (and lost) a cup final that we should really have won anyway.

 

We couldn't even beat HBS and Prague when it mattered.

 

Seriously, there is no justification for how crap we've been this year. Go through the fixture list and just add up all the games that were there for the taking and we lost/drew.

[Faz]

In the words of Queen - I want it all, and I want it now. End of.

 

Or, although I can't specifically recall them, I know I've walked away from pretty entertaining 0-0 draws, and pretty drab 2-0 victories.

 

So far as this season goes, our poor finishing has left a sour taste. The odd goal here or there would have transformed the season and peoples view of the way we have played. Apart from showing the top teams too much respect, I think we've played good passing football. There's been good movement, and plenty of chances created.

[angelman]

Actually thought our 0-0 draw at home to Liverpool, while a bit too negative on our behalf (prob due to LFC being in prime goal scoring form) was quite entertaining.

[Baird of the land]

To me its the points ratio matters a lot. So i'll accept duller football if it results in wins. If it results in us only getting 46 points regardless of fluking a high league position because of everyone else's equal ineptidude then i won't be happy. Equally losing most games 4-3 won't likely leave me happy even if it is entertaining.

[Lighthouse]

I think a better question could be:

 

Would you rather finish 8th with 46 points or 13th with 56?

 

Granted that is unusually high for 13th but then 46 is unusually low for 8th. I'd take 13th with more points as I really don't care what number we are in the table. More points means we've seen more wins, more goals, fewer conceded etc.

[once_bitterne]

When most fans talk of entertaining football what they in fact mean is seeing the team win games (esp at home) and score goals. This is what Puel didn't do.

[benjii]

If we were winning more often, nobody would be talking about how we played

 

At times, the way we played under Koeman was dreadful

 

This is correct.

 

I like the idea that we should implement "exciting football", as if this is a common phenomenon in the Premier League and some sort of glorious Saints tradition. The fact is that very few Premier League teams play more exciting football than us. Most of the teams below us play proper ****e football. What people really wish is that we'd scored a few more goals. Which is quite reasonable but something entirely different.

 

The most exciting things about Koeman's teams were Mane and Pelle. Occasionally we had matches where everything clicked and we battered teams but goals breed goals and the problem this year has been not converting when on top and then conceding with the opposition's first attack. Plus missing penalties!

 

The most unexciting football I have seen from Saints in a long time was the turgid long-ball crap served up by Koeman at times. There was nothing exciting about our 3-2 comeback win against Liverpool until Mane single-handedly undid them. We were terrible and lucky they weren't well out of sight at half time. There was nothing exciting about our 6-1 league cup defeat. There was nothing exciting about the two tactically inept performances against Midjetyland. There was nothing exciting about the embarrassing display away to Bournemouth. There was nothing exciting about the FA Cup beating by Palace or the narrow scraping through over two monotonous and poor performances against Ipswich in the previous round. I wasn't very excited when Sheff Utd knocked as out of the League Cup the year before.

 

The fact is, the league was always going to be unexciting this season once it became evident we had nothing to play for - which was some time ago. The EFL cup run was very exciting.

 

Goals are the problem. So, the real question is: do you want to finish 8th or 13th and score more goals. Well, ceteris paribus, that would mean conceding more as well. Either way neither 8th, nor 13th, is likely to be very exciting.

 

Relegation battles are exciting. Winning things is exciting. Qualifying for Europe is exciting.

[Chez]

When most fans talk of entertaining football what they in fact mean is seeing the team win games (esp at home) and score goals. This is what Puel didn't do.

 

This. Plenty of good attractive passing football on display, but critically not as many guilt edge chances as we have come accustomed to in recent years (I put that down to our lack of really high quality players in the final third). Without those genuine clear cut chances you don't score goals and win enough games. If we had no one would be talking about entertainment. Better attacking players supported by a reasonable methodology. Not sure we will have either next season.

[benjii]

The league should start deducting a point from each team when it finishes 0-0. That would sort it out. One up front at home - no thanks.

 

Like Pochettino and Koeman did 90% of the time...?

[Whitey Grandad]

This. Plenty of good attractive passing football on display, but critically not as many guilt edge chances as we have come accustomed to in recent years (I put that down to our lack of really high quality players in the final third). Without those genuine clear cut chances you don't score goals and win enough games. If we had no one would be talking about entertainment. Better attacking players supported by a reasonable methodology. Not sure we will have either next season.

 

Too slow to get in amongst the opposition so there are plenty of defenders back to block the shots.

[Saint-Fred]

So last year when we got more points it wasn't progression it was just the teams below us were dross...

 

I am not saying that am I?

Do you know how many times Spurs scored more than 4 goals in the league this season? that in itself shows how poor the opposition was this season.

Chelsea got the record number of wins..a great side but the best ever or just fortunate that the bottom half were shockingly bad?

The number of points required for 8th just shows how mediocre the bottom 12 were this year.

[doddisalegend]

I am not saying that am I?

Do you know how many times Spurs scored more than 4 goals in the league this season? that in itself shows how poor the opposition was this season.

Chelsea got the record number of wins..a great side but the best ever or just fortunate that the bottom half were shockingly bad?

The number of points required for 8th just shows how mediocre the bottom 12 were this year.

 

No it doesn't it shows how good spurs have been this season they didn't lose at home all season. The big boys are back on top because they've improved making everyone else look worse.

[Saint-Fred]

No it doesn't it shows how good spurs have been this season they didn't lose at home all season. The big boys are back on top because they've improved making everyone else look worse.

 

Ok if that's what you think, however my opinion is that Spurs were rubbish in Europe and they didn't even play anyone good. The same goes for Man City. Despite being poor in Europe they still dominated our league. That again illustrates how poor the league is this year. How did arsenal do against Bayern?

 

The big boys got to the cup semi finals without having to play full strength teams in the other rounds.. Man Utd have played a weakened team the league for the last two months and still don't get beat often..it's not because they are brilliant, as we saw, it's because they can put in half effort against the lower half and still get a nil nil draw etc...United were really pretty poor yet still comfortably finished top 6.

Despite all their limitations in defence Liverpool finished top 4 and had the best record against the top 6.

Yes the top 6 got their act together but by no means we're they really that good this year. The rest of the league was just cannon fodder shown by the drab games between them.

I guess it's another agree to disagree moment!