Movement off the ball

[Dusic]

We are so poor without the ball, both in a defensive and attacking sense, something ultimately Puel is responsible for.

 

Defensively, we are woeful at winning back the ball. How many times do our front 3 regain possession? How many times do we attack after winning the ball back high up the pitch? Very rarely, we have totally lost that facet of our game. In fact many of our attackers first reaction when losing the ball is to turn and moan at someone rather than try to get it back, by which time the opponent is running at our back four. We are so often too deep, as if Puel is scared we can't handle opening up a bit.

 

We are also very, very suceptible to the counter attack, largely because of a lack of mobility in the middle of the pitch. This also goes for our own corners which quite often end up in attacks for the opponent. Davis and JWP don't help in this sense as neither have any kind of physical presence and allied with Romeu who has been superb but is limited pace wise, its a big flaw. Need to sign a central midfielder who can cover more ground in the summer, a Schneiderlin replacement if you will. We have gone from a really solid Schneiderlin-Wanyama-Davis trio which pretty much covered all bases, to a midfield that doesn't really operate effectively.

 

In attack, our off the ball running is often pathetic, except for the full backs who are largely decent in this respect. Nobody runs in behind, too many of the attacking players (Tadic, Boufal, Redmond) end up coming way too deep and just remove themselves as any sort of threat. Tonight in stoppage time Tadic and Boufal both came towards the halfway line when we needed them to provide a passing option. Gabbiadini has good movement but just gets isolated. If playing with 3 central midfielders one has to get forward more. As it is the central midfielders barely ever make forward runs so we become so easy to mark as you just need to cover the strikers runs and then we are not going to hurt anyone.

 

From a team that used to be considered dynamic, capable of pressing high when needed and generally played at a high tempo (especially at home) its a shame to see how far we have fallen in these aspects - our movement in both attacking and defensive elements is often too slow to give a decent side many problems. Thats my biggest gripe about Puel.

 

If/when he goes I hope this will be made a must have for any new Manager.

[Bridge]

A very good write up of the problems we have had this season...All too clear to see, but you have managed to explain most of the core issues.

[bazza]

Yep, the movement off the ball has been abysmal this season.

[beatlesaint]

Excellent summing up of the problems we have. Glad you mentioned it because I'm sick to the back teeth of Redmond in particular screwing up then turning round and moaning at someone else !

[Mr Saints]

Good post. Also, Gabbiadini has become ineffective as there is no one within 20 yards of him. He clearly needs support in order to make the clever darting runs. No excuse for this, especially at home.

[Heisenberg]

The deterioration of Gabbiadini highlights the main issues.

 

We had a guy scoring for fun and have kicked the beans out of him quick smart.

 

He must be thinking WTF

[Adkins' Bus]

Excellent summary of our main issues.

 

I particularly noticed the stopping to moan last night rather than trying to win the ball back straight away. J Rod, Tadic, Redmond and Boufal were all guilty of this. J Rod in particular turned his back on the play and when Utd passed it out from the back the ball must have almost clipped his heel. Poor attitude seemed to be confined to one or two players in recent seasons which is manageable but it now seems to be growing amongst the squad which is a big worry. This is certainly something that is the managers job to keep a cap on.

[corky morris]

Agree with most of the OP & BeatleSaint.

Its pedestrian nonsense half the time. Not really entertaining either.

We are so slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow................................................................................

[sydenhamssocks]

Totally agree, your thoughts are spot on.

We've mysteriously stopped playing to suit Gabbiadini's strengths and he now cuts a forlorn figure up front and being subbed regularly. An attacking midfielder would support him for sure,as would finding the width again and getting those crosses whipped in.

In fact....who's strengths do we play to ?

[Kingsland Red]

Jack Stephen's Hansen-esque forays into the clear space in front of him, like a quarter back, is something all the players should be doing. It moves the game forward and gets the team nearer to Gabba.

Unfortunately we have become a team of nervous crabs lacking an incisive cutting edge.

 

We are back to Poch's 8th place, with the bonus of the cup final, so it isn't all bad and can be rectified over the summer.

[S-Clarke]

Yep, you've called it spot on. I personally think it's a tactical ploy for the 'wide attackers' to come inside and create space for the full backs, but that means that our game relies so much on the wing backs and the performance in these positions.

 

But then what happens is that they'll deliver, but everyone else is then behind them.....

 

The movement at times yesterday in the 2nd half was better, but it's still not tactically right for me. We don't get the best out of Tadic or Redmond playing that way, and then if the fall backs lose possession, you're pretty much open to the attack - as we saw particularly in the 2nd half against Arsenal.

[Dusic]

Spurs showing the way to work off the ball in the first half then Leicester since the start of the second half. Can barely think of a game we have played well at a high tempo and with aggessive closing down this season.

[Dusic]

Spurs score - 4 players in the 6 yard box when Kane heads in.

[Batman]

Spurs score - 4 players in the 6 yard box when Kane heads in.

 

do they not know they can save energy if they just log the ball in to one player in the opposition box?

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Spurs score - 4 players in the 6 yard box when Kane heads in.

 

[Saint Billy]

Totally agree, your thoughts are spot on.

We've mysteriously stopped playing to suit Gabbiadini's strengths and he now cuts a forlorn figure up front and being subbed regularly. An attacking midfielder would support him for sure,as would finding the width again and getting those crosses whipped in.

In fact....who's strengths do we play to ?

 

Plus it doesn't help when your main provider Tadic is having his worst season ever.

 

Thinking about it, we have the talented Tadic, Boufal and Redmond who have all the skills to get past players but then brainstorm and try it again and invariably lose the opportunity to deliver the final ball to Gabbi, very frustrating!.

[mrfahaji]

Jack Stephen's Hansen-esque forays into the clear space in front of him, like a quarter back, is something all the players should be doing. It moves the game forward and gets the team nearer to Gabba.

Unfortunately we have become a team of nervous crabs lacking an incisive cutting edge.

 

We are back to Poch's 8th place, with the bonus of the cup final, so it isn't all bad and can be rectified over the summer.

 

Sorry to be pedantic, but a Quarterback tends to drop back before passing the ball. In fact, if a QB runs forward into space he can't then pass. So I'm not sure your analogy works.

 

I've never been a big fan of that term anyway, especially now it seems to be in vogue.

[Graffito]

Good OP. Lack of pace in recovery is the single most likely reason for players hanging back when they should be supporting the lone striker. Gabbiadini really is a forlorn figure and no target man. By contrast we tend to advance as a unit, which is predictable, slow, and easy to defend. This is overly cautious from Puel in recent home games and not sustainable because it renders the striker virtually redundant for long periods. It was a minority view on this forum during the window that we needed a Schneiderlin type player, but it was a correct one.

[mrfahaji]

I went to a talk by Michael Cox (of Zonal Marking fame), and one of the questions he was asked was about any managers on the continent that impressed him with their style/tactics. He said that Maurizio Sarri of Napoli was doing a great job, and they play some fantastic football. I found this website, and watched the video half way down the page, Palermo vs Napoli.

 

http://breakingthelines.com/tactical-preview/the-sarri-effect/

 

You can actually see the similarities between the way they set up and play and they way we do. The difference is the tempo, and the movement off the ball.

 

Would be interesting to know what people make of this - does the description of Napoli tactics sound familiar? What are we missing to make it work for us? The players or is the manager lacking, if not ideas then the execution? Ironic that Gabbiadini came from this team because, apparently, the manager didn't fancy him for this system, yet I thought he suited it well. No doubt he is at least used to playing this way!

[Alanh]

Good OP. Lack of pace in recovery is the single most likely reason for players hanging back when they should be supporting the lone striker. Gabbiadini really is a forlorn figure and no target man. By contrast we tend to advance as a unit, which is predictable, slow, and easy to defend. This is overly cautious from Puel in recent home games and not sustainable because it renders the striker virtually redundant for long periods. It was a minority view on this forum during the window that we needed a Schneiderlin type player, but it was a correct one.

 

I agree that we don't get forward quickly enough, but set that against the fact that recent home games have included Man City, Arsenal and Man U. Man City pretty much dominated us all over the pitch, we matched Arsenal in many respects, but their quick passing was much better than ours on the day, and we took the game to Utd while always being wary of their pace on the break through Martial and Rashford (when he came on) and the quality of Mata and Mkitaryan.

[Graffito]

I agree that we don't get forward quickly enough, but set that against the fact that recent home games have included Man City, Arsenal and Man U. Man City pretty much dominated us all over the pitch, we matched Arsenal in many respects, but their quick passing was much better than ours on the day, and we took the game to Utd while always being wary of their pace on the break through Martial and Rashford (when he came on) and the quality of Mata and Mkitaryan.

 

That's a fair point which I acknowledge. I referred to the lack of pace as the single most likely reason for players hanging back. It's true that there are so many variable factors, not least the quality of the opposition. I'm also highly concious of the fact that football fans tend to focus on our team only. My knowledge of other teams tactics is a bit patchy for instance so if an opposition manager makes a tactical switch during a game I wouldn't necessarily pick it up, though it could be a game changer. The upshot is that we tend to blame poor old Claude for everything. Having said that, I've come to,the conclusion that we are overly cautious largely because of lack of pace in midfield and it is CP's decision to play that way. A good example is Tottenham at home, when we dominated for twenty minutes, then inexplicably to me at the time, sat back for the rest of the match. With the right personnel, I would expect to see CP play more progressive football next season.

[Bridge]

I went to a talk by Michael Cox (of Zonal Marking fame), and one of the questions he was asked was about any managers on the continent that impressed him with their style/tactics. He said that Maurizio Sarri of Napoli was doing a great job, and they play some fantastic football. I found this website, and watched the video half way down the page, Palermo vs Napoli.

 

http://breakingthelines.com/tactical-preview/the-sarri-effect/

 

You can actually see the similarities between the way they set up and play and they way we do. The difference is the tempo, and the movement off the ball.

 

Would be interesting to know what people make of this - does the description of Napoli tactics sound familiar? What are we missing to make it work for us? The players or is the manager lacking, if not ideas then the execution? Ironic that Gabbiadini came from this team because, apparently, the manager didn't fancy him for this system, yet I thought he suited it well. No doubt he is at least used to playing this way!

 

Good post...watched the video...It's not too dissimilar to the way we build up play. The big difference is the speed and movement of the ball... quick passing kills teams as opposition players have no chance to intercept the ball.

[S-Clarke]

I went to a talk by Michael Cox (of Zonal Marking fame), and one of the questions he was asked was about any managers on the continent that impressed him with their style/tactics. He said that Maurizio Sarri of Napoli was doing a great job, and they play some fantastic football. I found this website, and watched the video half way down the page, Palermo vs Napoli.

 

http://breakingthelines.com/tactical-preview/the-sarri-effect/

 

You can actually see the similarities between the way they set up and play and they way we do. The difference is the tempo, and the movement off the ball.

 

Would be interesting to know what people make of this - does the description of Napoli tactics sound familiar? What are we missing to make it work for us? The players or is the manager lacking, if not ideas then the execution? Ironic that Gabbiadini came from this team because, apparently, the manager didn't fancy him for this system, yet I thought he suited it well. No doubt he is at least used to playing this way!

 

Good find, this sort of stuff is interesting (well, to me anyway). This is a good example of why I don't think we have the players to play that way. To be fair, Hamsik, Callejon, Insinge would walk into our team unchallenged, but if you look at Hamsik in isolation and the role he operates....he is the player that makes them tick, ensuring that the attacking 3 aren't too separated from the rest of the side. We don't have anyone like that in our team (maybe Davis is trying to be that type), so whilst on paper it looks similar, we are probably light years away from that. Worth noting that Merteens is also not a pure number 9 striker, he can play all over the front 3 - similar in a sense to Gabbiadini. I would imagine Milik would have been first choice for them had he not been injured.

 

Generally, I see a structure to how we're trying to play, but it's frustrating to me because I don't think we have the players to do it. We're definitely not as gung-ho as Napoli though, very much a case of keep what you have before trying to get anymore (and that would be in the personality of the manager). So I think it's a mixture of both - we're lacking the players to make it work, and the manager is also lacking the confidence to execute a quicker game - probably because he knows we don't have the players, which begs the question....why is he persevering with it? He doesn't seem to be a manager who assesses what he has and builds the system around that, he seems to want to shoehorn his way whether we're fit for it or not. That's where I think he's going to come unstuck.

[mrfahaji]

Good find, this sort of stuff is interesting (well, to me anyway). This is a good example of why I don't think we have the players to play that way. To be fair, Hamsik, Callejon, Insinge would walk into our team unchallenged, but if you look at Hamsik in isolation and the role he operates....he is the player that makes them tick, ensuring that the attacking 3 aren't too separated from the rest of the side. We don't have anyone like that in our team (maybe Davis is trying to be that type), so whilst on paper it looks similar, we are probably light years away from that. Worth noting that Merteens is also not a pure number 9 striker, he can play all over the front 3 - similar in a sense to Gabbiadini. I would imagine Milik would have been first choice for them had he not been injured.

 

Generally, I see a structure to how we're trying to play, but it's frustrating to me because I don't think we have the players to do it. We're definitely not as gung-ho as Napoli though, very much a case of keep what you have before trying to get anymore (and that would be in the personality of the manager). So I think it's a mixture of both - we're lacking the players to make it work, and the manager is also lacking the confidence to execute a quicker game - probably because he knows we don't have the players, which begs the question....why is he persevering with it? He doesn't seem to be a manager who assesses what he has and builds the system around that, he seems to want to shoehorn his way whether we're fit for it or not. That's where I think he's going to come unstuck.

 

Agree with all that. The idea of their outside forwards cutting in is quite similar to what we do, but it seems like there is often a cross field ball on for them as well. Our full backs provide that a little, but the midfielders not so much. Perhaps this why we originally set up with 1 DM and two more attacking ones, but we struggled to control the games. Now we've gone for more resilience we're lacking that extra dimension going forward.

 

What I didn't glean from this video/page was how they play defensively (apart from defence being a bit of a weakness in general). We tend to sit off teams until they get about 30-40 yards from our goal before crowding them out. I would like to see more pressing if I'm honest, but not sure if it's conducive to how we play with the ball. Apparently fixture build up was the reason for not playing pressing this year, so could we expect that to change or is it a convenient excuse?

 

I suppose one telling fact for me is that if Puel is replaced, I would want the new manager to modify our style rather than revolutionise it. I really like the small triangles of passing we try to do, it just lacks a bit of purpose at times.

[Whitey Grandad]

Spurs score - 4 players in the 6 yard box when Kane heads in.

 

Have we ever had 4 players in the opposition box this season?

[S-Clarke]

Agree with all that. The idea of their outside forwards cutting in is quite similar to what we do, but it seems like there is often a cross field ball on for them as well. Our full backs provide that a little, but the midfielders not so much. Perhaps this why we originally set up with 1 DM and two more attacking ones, but we struggled to control the games. Now we've gone for more resilience we're lacking that extra dimension going forward.

 

What I didn't glean from this video/page was how they play defensively (apart from defence being a bit of a weakness in general). We tend to sit off teams until they get about 30-40 yards from our goal before crowding them out. I would like to see more pressing if I'm honest, but not sure if it's conducive to how we play with the ball. Apparently fixture build up was the reason for not playing pressing this year, so could we expect that to change or is it a convenient excuse?

 

I suppose one telling fact for me is that if Puel is replaced, I would want the new manager to modify our style rather than revolutionise it. I really like the small triangles of passing we try to do, it just lacks a bit of purpose at times.

 

Our pressing is a bit half arsed at the moment, and more often than not we are happy for the opposition to play in front of us - as long as we keep the shape in front of them. All I've seen Puel and other's say this year is that we have to rotate, we can't play a pressing game etc. But has either benefited us? We've still had tons of injuries and we've dropped tons of points in the league, so it begs the question if we should have just gone with the best team more often than not. I'm sure we'd have seen Hojbjurg develop a lot more if that was the case - I'm a big fan of his.

 

But I've said in other threads, I don't think we're far away. It doesn't need a complete reinvention of the wheel, we're a better bet to 'go again' than any of the sides in and around us. We need a few tweaks to how we play and some better suited players brought into the central midfield and wide area's. We need a lot more pace in my opinion.

[derry]

A successful football manager gets more out of the team than the sum of the parts. Taking the players and playing them in a formation that suits their abilities is the way to go. Picking a system and sticking square pegs in round holes is what we have ended up with. If he can't see that he is in trouble.

[mrfahaji]

A successful football manager gets more out of the team than the sum of the parts. Taking the players and playing them in a formation that suits their abilities is the way to go. Picking a system and sticking square pegs in round holes is what we have ended up with. If he can't see that he is in trouble.

 

What specifically isn't working in the system in your eyes? Which players are square pegs for round holes? If we don't have better alternatives, e.g. I would say CM is a problem, but not sure Hojbjerg or Clasie offer better options (thought I'd like to see Hojbjerg given a run to see), so in that case maybe a different system would work better. But what system?