Saints u23 v Derby u23

[VectisSaint]

Not good result for the u23s tonight. Need to get something against Man City on the last day to avoid relegation. Better team, no cutting edge. Gardos and Martina showing why they need to be moved on in the Summer. New lad Tella looked very good when he came on 2nd half, but otherwise not much positive to report.

[SuperSAINT]

Not good result for the u23s tonight. Need to get something against Man City on the last day to avoid relegation. Better team, no cutting edge. Gardos and Martina showing why they need to be moved on in the Summer. New lad Tella looked very good when he came on 2nd half, but otherwise not much positive to report.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/04/21/ronald-koeman-not-afraid-play-youngsters-no-matter-southampton/

 

Even Ronald having a pop.

[eurosaint]

I think that Ron is becoming a bit like Redknapp, selective memory and believing his own hype !!

[Matthew Le God]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/04/21/ronald-koeman-not-afraid-play-youngsters-no-matter-southampton/

 

Even Ronald having a pop.

 

This is nonsense from Koeman and no journalist picked him up on it...

 

 

 

Stephens and Ward-Prowse both played for our academy teams and are both currently starters in the 1st team. Stephens being used ahead of 2 internationals - Caceres & Gardos.

 

Plus Sims, McQueen, Targett & Reed are all getting a good amount of exposure around the first team training and some bench and game time.

[Daft Kerplunk]

This is nonsense from Koeman and no journalist picked him up on it...

 

 

 

Stephens and Ward-Prowse both played for our academy teams and are both currently starters in the 1st team. Stephens being used ahead of 2 internationals - Caceres & Gardos.

 

Plus Sims, McQueen, Targett & Reed are all getting a good amount of exposure around the first team training and some bench and game time.

 

Is it really nonsense though if we want to be at the top end of the table? MLG, you pride yourself on having decent football knowledge so realistically, do you see any of that next crop (Prowse isn't included as came through under Nigel Adkins) playing to the level needed for the top 8?

 

This is not me having a moan about the academy, far from it, but it is very difficult to continue producing really top players year on year and some periods will produce good, but not outstanding players. I'd say Ronald's view was perfectly reasonable from what I've seen and I've seen a fair number of u23 games live this season.

[Batman]

This is nonsense from Koeman and no journalist picked him up on it...

 

 

 

Stephens and Ward-Prowse both played for our academy teams and are both currently starters in the 1st team. Stephens being used ahead of 2 internationals - Caceres & Gardos.

 

Plus Sims, McQueen, Targett & Reed are all getting a good amount of exposure around the first team training and some bench and game time.

 

and here we are, miles off from where we were last season.

I think Ronald means not good enough to challenge the top 6 (which I guess is where he wants to be as does SFC if you believe what the club say)....He is probably right (at the moment)

Edited 22 April, 2017 by Batman

[Dusic]

I think there is also an element of truth in what Koeman said.

 

JWP has been in the first team for 5 PL seasons (incl under Koeman's management). Stephens is 23. Koeman isnt referring to them.

 

Reed has been used very sparingly for the past 3 seasons and must have major question marks as to if he will ever make it at this level.

 

Sims showed promise, but is very inconsistent and also is 20 so next season probably key for him.

 

Are there any 17-20 year olds (Sims aside) who are anywhere near the first team? Is it connected that the U23s are likely to get relegated (we have been slowly adding more and more first team squad players into the lineup to try and prevent this) and the U18s have had about 3 poor seasons in a row now?

 

Whilst Lookman was bought rather than produced, we definitely have no teenagers as good as him and Tom Davies so he has a point IMO.

 

Interesting also that we have very few if any Academy players selected in the England U16s to 20s this time around. Not always a great indicator but for example the likes of Shaw, Chambers, JWP, Targett, Stephens were all selected through many of those age group sides. As a well known Academy that has produced very good players you would imagine they would be having a look to see what we have and ultimately have decided there are better players elsewhere at all of those age levels.

[VectisSaint]

Is it really nonsense though if we want to be at the top end of the table? MLG, you pride yourself on having decent football knowledge so realistically, do you see any of that next crop (Prowse isn't included as came through under Nigel Adkins) playing to the level needed for the top 8?

 

This is not me having a moan about the academy, far from it, but it is very difficult to continue producing really top players year on year and some periods will produce good, but not outstanding players. I'd say Ronald's view was perfectly reasonable from what I've seen and I've seen a fair number of u23 games live this season.

It is nonsense, in as much as it is plainly wrong. Forget JWP he has been an established first-teamer for a few years now and I don't think Ronald was referring to him. But Jack Stephens has been a regular now for best part of half a season. Sam McQueen has played quite often including recently when Bertrand was injured. Matt Targett was a regular until his injury. Josh Sims has been in the team quite often. So his statement is nonsense.

 

BUT, he is also right that our Academy is not producing good enough players. On the evidence of last night and a few other games there is not much coming through and the teams are not performing well. Slattery looks a good prospect, as does Valery (though he was injured last night), and Alfie Jones will be good enough in a few years. The new kid Tella looked very promising, but otherwise difficult to see any new prospects (and I include Reed here who really is not showing evidence of progressing, might be controversial view on here). It is time that Saints looked hard at the Academy and stopped resting on our laurels, we are not finding and developing the players like we used to under Prost, and it is probably time to move on from the current u23 and u18 management teams, specifically Hunter and Fleming. There was evidence last season that they were not good enough and this season we seem to have regressed further. Its hard to imagine that our famed Academy (u23 side) could be relegated to the 2nd division next season, we should have players and a team capable of mixing it with the elite group.

[simo]

While watching McQueen playing for England u21s the commentators noted "The England set up owe a lot to the Southampton Academy over the last few years" , We may not currently have a Bale, Walcott or Aoc coming thru atm but we can't expect that every year but we are producing English players capable of playing in the premier league and that's not to be sniffed at !

[SuperSAINT]

It's ridiculous to think that we haven't loaned Reed out.

 

Too good for the U23's. Not good enough for the 1st team yet.

[doddisalegend]

It is nonsense, in as much as it is plainly wrong. Forget JWP he has been an established first-teamer for a few years now and I don't think Ronald was referring to him. But Jack Stephens has been a regular now for best part of half a season. Sam McQueen has played quite often including recently when Bertrand was injured. Matt Targett was a regular until his injury. Josh Sims has been in the team quite often. So his statement is nonsense.

 

BUT, he is also right that our Academy is not producing good enough players. On the evidence of last night and a few other games there is not much coming through and the teams are not performing well. Slattery looks a good prospect, as does Valery (though he was injured last night), and Alfie Jones will be good enough in a few years. The new kid Tella looked very promising, but otherwise difficult to see any new prospects (and I include Reed here who really is not showing evidence of progressing, might be controversial view on here). It is time that Saints looked hard at the Academy and stopped resting on our laurels, we are not finding and developing the players like we used to under Prost, and it is probably time to move on from the current u23 and u18 management teams, specifically Hunter and Fleming. There was evidence last season that they were not good enough and this season we seem to have regressed further. Its hard to imagine that our famed Academy (u23 side) could be relegated to the 2nd division next season, we should have players and a team capable of mixing it with the elite group.

 

 

U23s sides are hard to gage though. Firstly teams can add overage players which can skew results. Secondly if your best u23s players are being called up to the first team or sent out on loan the gaps are normally plugged by under 18s resulting in a drop in the quality of the side. Plus the whole point of under 23s is development or match fitness rather than winning at all costs.

[Charlie Wayman]

Past time for a re-shuffle of the coaching set up. Hunter & Jaidi are not setting up the team properly or getting the best from the obviously talented players under their control. Time and again we are firing blanks and given away sloppy goals. Having said all season that 'they would take the positives out of the loss'' and "we must learn form our mistakes" it is fairly evident that they are serving up the same old dross in the same old way with the same old inevitable results and have learned absolutely bugger-all all season. Get rid and start again. How does getting relegated support our vision FFS!

[VectisSaint]

U23s sides are hard to gage though. Firstly teams can add overage players which can skew results. Secondly if your best u23s players are being called up to the first team or sent out on loan the gaps are normally plugged by under 18s resulting in a drop in the quality of the side. Plus the whole point of under 23s is development or match fitness rather than winning at all costs.

 

For individual games agreed, but over the course of the season, 22 games this shouldn't be a factor. We played overage players last night in defence, but if anything Martina and Gardos just made things worse. Dropping to Div 2 will have serious impact on our development, because our lads will be competing against poorer sides. It's not all about winning here but it is about ensuring we maximise the development opportunities. Our play had been poor in terms of incisive news which is the aim of the game and with poorer quality competition next season that will of get worse. Hunter and Fleming need to be replaced, maybe Jahdi as well. The Academy structure needs to be examined and action taken.

[Batman]

Can't be a good thing if the final stepping stone to the first team is getting relegated ffs

[Matthew Le God]

Can't be a good thing if the final stepping stone to the first team is getting relegated ffs

 

Jumping to conclusions yet again Batman?

 

Bottom 2 go down, Saints are not in the bottom 2. Saints are 9th.

 

On last game of season Saints have difficult game vs Man City... but Derby (who are below Saints) play Chelsea.

[Red]

It's ridiculous to think that we haven't loaned Reed out.

 

Too good for the U23's. Not good enough for the 1st team yet.

 

Maybe no one wanted him?

 

Problem is we are top 7 to 10 level in the EPL on average, which is not a bad standard considering the EPL is arguably the best league right now, so to blood a new young player is much much harder than before. Also you will find a top player once every 2 to 3 years - which other club has done better? Think some of the players already mentioned will come good but it takes time. I do feel that we are slow to move on players who are not developing, but there again there are ample examples of clubs getting rid too early (some even paying a fortune to re-sign), and one of our attractions for young players is that we look after them even if they do not have a future at Saints.

 

Not an easy solution, but one that is not a burning one for me whilst we maintain our top current EPL status or better.

[doddisalegend]

Looks like we are scouting potential abroad

 

http://www.bing.com/news/apiclick.aspx?ref=BDIGeneric&aid=C98EA5B0842DBB9405BBF071E1DA7651530FFE51&tid=4DE6C1F87C3742908990784CF934E5CF&url=https%3a%2f%2fwww.standardmedia.co.ke%2fsports%2farticle%2f2001237346%2fsouthampton-to-train-kenyan-youths-in-nairobi&c=15241648350166804783&mkt=en-gb

[VectisSaint]

Jumping to conclusions yet again Batman?

 

Bottom 2 go down, Saints are not in the bottom 2. Saints are 9th.

 

On last game of season Saints have difficult game vs Man City... but Derby (who are below Saints) play Chelsea.

He's not jumping to conclusions, just considering a real possibility, one that the Club themselves clearly consider to be a possibility, maybe even a probability, given the importance they put on the Derby game. Derby's remaining game is against Chelsea who are very mid table in this League, whereas we have Man City (who Derby recently beat but who are far and away one of the best two teams). Then you have Leicester and Reading below us each with a game in hand, the first of which they play each other. If Leicester win they will go above us and still have a game to play (if Reading win they will be level with us on points with a game to play), a draw would be handy for us. If both Saints and Derby lose the last game it will be down to goal difference, currently ours is better by 2, but with us playing City who knows what will happen. Relegation is still a very distinct possibility, but we can of course avoid it. But should we be scrabbling around on the last game of the season to try to avoid the drop, no of course we shouldn't.

[Charlie Wayman]

Jumping to conclusions yet again Batman?

 

Bottom 2 go down, Saints are not in the bottom 2. Saints are 9th.

 

On last game of season Saints have difficult game vs Man City... but Derby (who are below Saints) play Chelsea.

 

Complacency par excellence! So it's good enough to just scrape by?

 

The whole point of the U23's is to find, develop and feed next gen players into our first team but if the development coaching is useless we will be back to where we started before all the investment in the Academy began. Buying in players at exhorbitant prices who at best might be journeymen discarded by the scouting systems of the top clubs in this country and abroad. We'll not unearth many 23+ year old nuggets that way so a successful Academy is one of the few ways we might compete better in future. Right now you'd have to argue that it is not fulfilling its expected potential. Surely not all the kids in there are failures which relegation might suggest. Much more likely is that our kids like Sims, Seagar others are nor being taught properly.

 

We should be winning this league not propping it up!

[Dusic]

Everton crowned U23 Champions tonight. Hopefully Saints can stay up so our young players play against better players otherwise might need to ship a few more out on loan.

[Matthew Le God]

Complacency par excellence! So it's good enough to just scrape by?

 

The whole point of the U23's is to find, develop and feed next gen players into our first team but if the development coaching is useless we will be back to where we started before all the investment in the Academy began. Buying in players at exhorbitant prices who at best might be journeymen discarded by the scouting systems of the top clubs in this country and abroad. We'll not unearth many 23+ year old nuggets that way so a successful Academy is one of the few ways we might compete better in future. Right now you'd have to argue that it is not fulfilling its expected potential. Surely not all the kids in there are failures which relegation might suggest. Much more likely is that our kids like Sims, Seagar others are nor being taught properly.

 

We should be winning this league not propping it up!

 

I imagine you consider Man Utd & Spurs to have good youth track records. They are only 1 point ahead of Saints and could also both be relegated...

 

 

If you were a fan of those clubs would you be making the same comments?

 

High league placing in under 23s is nice and a reasonably good sign, but is not the most important thing. What is important is player development.

 

Saints have a lot of players that could have been used in the under 23s in every game this season, but instead have been kept close to the first team, either actual involvement in games, matchday 18s or just training with them.