General election? June 8th?

[Window Cleaner]

1922 Committee: yes, you can continue as Prime Minister and lead us into the most complex and important negotiations this country has ever known, but only if you are utterly emaciated by the removal of your two most trusted advisors and the people that give you unwavering support, advice and confidence.

 

Nothing can possibly go wrong.

 

 

Apparently it was pretty crappy advice anyway.

[CB Fry]

Apparently it was pretty crappy advice anyway.

This is also true. The point is May is the lamest lame duck since Huey, Dewey and Louis got hit by a giant anvil that time.

[Wade Garrett]

Rumours that the great forum hope Davidson is planning a Scottish Tory breakaway over differences with May on Brexit. Either way she has already pledged to use her Commons votes to prioritise the single market over curbing immigration.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/09/ruth-davidson-planning-scottish-tory-breakaway-challenges-theresa/

 

Yet another politician who doesn't believe in democracy and the will of the people.

 

Just another Jimmy Krankie. She`s no political genius, she just rammed the possibility of indyref2 down the jocks throat.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Please explain what exactly what a hard brexit is?? I have heard about soft and hard brexits but nobody has quite come out and told us

 

It's just a phrase made up by remoaners to try & get us to stay in the single market. Did you ever hear it used during the referendum campaign. All I heard was Osborne & Cameron , along with Clegg, Gove & Boris stating that a vote to leave will be a vote to leave SM. lately I've noticed that some remoaners have started saying a hard Brexit is WTO terms, whereas previously they said it was sm

 

The only real difference between Labour & Tory positions is the Tories claim they will walk away under WTO terms if no deal is possible, whereas labour will sit down and accept any deal. To negotiate you have to make the other side think you will walk away, when in reality they probably wouldn't.

 

The reality of the situation, whether our political class like it or not, is that any party that accepts a deal which includes freedom of movement,or any party that blocks a deal that limits free movement, is going to commit electoral suicide. So if the EU insist that membership must include freedom of movement, we're leaving the SM. They'll probably be some sort of transitional arrangement, spread over a number of years.

 

 

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[shurlock]

It's just a phrase made up by remoaners to try & get us to stay in the single market. Did you ever hear it used during the referendum campaign. All I heard was Osborne & Cameron , along with Clegg, Gove & Boris stating that a vote to leave will be a vote to leave SM. lately I've noticed that some remoaners have started saying a hard Brexit is WTO terms, whereas previously they said it was sm

 

The only real difference between Labour & Tory positions is the Tories claim they will walk away under WTO terms if no deal is possible, whereas labour will sit down and accept any deal. To negotiate you have to make the other side think you will walk away, when in reality they probably wouldn't.

 

The reality of the situation, whether our political class like it or not, is that any party that accepts a deal which includes freedom of movement,or any party that blocks a deal that limits free movement, is going to commit electoral suicide. So if the EU insist that membership must include freedom of movement, we're leaving the SM. They'll probably be some sort of transitional arrangement, spread over a number of years.

 

 

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Remind us what the wording of the referendum question was again? That's all that matters.

[ecuk268]

At least we haven't ended up with a government propped by with terrorist sympathizers.

 

Oh, hang on a minute.......

[Lord Duckhunter]

At least we haven't ended up with a government propped by with terrorist sympathizers.

 

Oh, hang on a minute.......

 

Of course Labour wouldn't buy the DUP's votes to get crucial legislation through would they? Far too principled for that.

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7449268.stm

 

 

 

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[whelk]

Papers going with Johnson bid for leadership. Everyone can see May has no authority but FFS is there a more untrustworthy phoney in politics than Boris fcking Johnson?

Londoners might have loved him but bet the electorate won't.

Such a mess and looks we are going to get another PM no one voted for.

[shurlock]

Fiona Hill sounds like my kind of woman - a jock with a taste for expensive shoes who allegedly spat at Philip Hammond and used to cover Scottish division 2 football as a journo

[View From The Top]

to be fair he is not a champagne socialist, but the majority are

 

Brilliant bit of bribary getting the kids onside by offering free uni fees and £10 an hour. Not bright enough to realise that that will just price them out of work

 

This just shows how totally out of touch you are.

[shurlock]

Papers going with Johnson bid for leadership. Everyone can see May has no authority but FFS is there a more untrustworthy phoney in politics than Boris fcking Johnson?

Londoners might have loved him but bet the electorate won't.

Such a mess and looks we are going to get another PM no one voted for.

 

Agree, though am surprised how many second chances he gets. Not convinced all the electorate has seen through the act. No doubt, some dim Tory strategist will think his cheap, cheery optimism can counter Corbyn's enthusiasm and politics of hope.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Such a mess and looks we are going to get another PM no one voted for.

 

**** sake, you lefties are all over the place. "May must go", if she does , "we've got a pm nobody voted for ". Why don't you just say you don't accept the result & want a re-run. Why break with tradition, it's what you do after every vote you don't win .

 

 

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[whelk]

**** sake, you lefties are all over the place. "May must go", if she does , "we've got a pm nobody voted for ". Why don't you just say you don't accept the result & want a re-run. Why break with tradition, it's what you do after every vote you don't win .

 

 

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Don't claim to know me sunshine. And btw the way it's fcking easy to circumvent the swear filter.

I said you'd be in a foul mood petal and guess what?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Don't claim to know me sunshine. And btw the way it's fcking easy to circumvent the swear filter.

I said you'd be in a foul mood petal and guess what?

 

 

Do you want another election, or not?

 

 

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[whelk]

Do you want another election, or not?

 

 

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I want another referendum

[Jonnyboy]

...

[scotty]

Papers going with Johnson bid for leadership. Everyone can see May has no authority but FFS is there a more untrustworthy phoney in politics than Boris fcking Johnson?

Londoners might have loved him but bet the electorate won't.

Such a mess and looks we are going to get another PM no one voted for.

 

This. Why is johnson apparently being regarded as a possible prime minister? What the f*ck am I missing here? How is he even in the cabinet? Christ almighty, if that's the best our fair country has to offer we might as well give up now.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I want another referendum

 

Do you want another General Election

 

 

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[whelk]

Not particularly although can't see a hung parliament not reaching insurmountable problems very quickly. Still only Brexit to get through. All caused by stupid Tory vanity and ego and is annoying what a joke it all is turning into. Still one good thing is that Tories have hopefully got message they aren't infallible and need to listen more. And I actually had hopes for May initially.

[doddisalegend]

Papers going with Johnson bid for leadership. Everyone can see May has no authority but FFS is there a more untrustworthy phoney in politics than Boris fcking Johnson?

Londoners might have loved him but bet the electorate won't.

Such a mess and looks we are going to get another PM no one voted for.

 

I can't stand that buffoon I'm embarrassed that he represents my country in any way.

[benjii]

We need to massively hike MP salaries.

 

Something like £200k p.a. and a generous package for MPs who lose their seat would be reasonable.

 

Need to make it an aspirational job for normal but talented people. We still have too many privileged establishment types and rampant weirdos involved.

[Verbal]

Do you want another election, or not?

 

Absolutely not. Watching the Tories twist in the wind is way too funny.

 

Watching them attempt to achieve the most difficult legislative and negotiating challenge since rearmament - all as a minority government - is going to be even funnier.

 

May's fantasy 'no deal' Brexit, outside the single market and the customs union, is now off the table - brilliant!

 

The people have spoken. Deal with it.

[moonraker]

The electorate rejected the tories, most seats but a minority's in the house, small popular vote majority but well below 50% of the vote, all starting from a 20 point lead is a dsaster there is no way to read in any other way. The Tory arrogance personified by May and the pony spouted on here by her acolytes has been seen for what it is. I still think Corbyn is flawed and not PM material but his campaigning and appeal to the young and the disenfranchised is genuine and no amount of petty snipping and re writing of history changed or can change that. A little humble pie from the Tories would do them far more good than their current strategy of claiming a legitimacy they plainly do not have. Party first, country second, that's the Tories.

[shurlock]

Anna Soubry looking upbeat on the BBC earlier, maybe she's heard that Nige is returning, so she can resume wiping the floor with him

Edited 11 June, 2017 by shurlock

[Wade Garrett]

Liked what I heard from Corbyn this morning on Andrew Marr. He wants tariff free trade with Europe, but is committed to Brexit and leaving the single market.

 

Have to say, after voting Tory for the first and only time in my life, their campaign was an absolute shambles.

[CB Fry]

The electorate rejected the tories, most seats but a minority's in the house, small popular vote majority but well below 50% of the vote, all starting from a 20 point lead is a dsaster there is no way to read in any other way. The Tory arrogance personified by May and the pony spouted on here by her acolytes has been seen for what it is. I still think Corbyn is flawed and not PM material but his campaigning and appeal to the young and the disenfranchised is genuine and no amount of petty snipping and re writing of history changed or can change that. A little humble pie from the Tories would do them far more good than their current strategy of claiming a legitimacy they plainly do not have. Party first, country second, that's the Tories.

 

I don't think any British ruling party has ever claimed more than 50% of the vote or anything close so that's a very odd benchmark.

 

Whether people like it or not, the Tories are the only legitimate party with a claim to rule. Far more legitimate than Corbyn blathering about his alternative Queen's speech.

[Window Cleaner]

I don't think any British ruling party has ever claimed more than 50% of the vote or anything close so that's a very odd benchmark.

 

Whether people like it or not, the Tories are the only legitimate party with a claim to rule. Far more legitimate than Corbyn blathering about his alternative Queen's speech.

 

Sounds about right. I'd be quite interested to know exactly how Corbyn thinks he could muster a majority n the Commons.

He's got 56 less than the Conservatives, Sinn Fein don't sit, can't see either DUP or the lone NI independant having anything to do with either labour or a man reputed to have had Irish Republican sympathies at one time. Pehaps he's counting on the Scottish conservatives to have a bit of a U turn and back him in exchange for some sort of independance vote, can't see that either. So basically you'd just have to assume that he's just another dreamer.

[Wade Garrett]

I don't think any British ruling party has ever claimed more than 50% of the vote or anything close so that's a very odd benchmark.

 

Whether people like it or not, the Tories are the only legitimate party with a claim to rule. Far more legitimate than Corbyn blathering about his alternative Queen's speech.

 

Very true. However, even with a deal with the DUP, the Tories would have to be unbelievably disciplined to be able to govern. Especially with the Scottish Tories set to have their own agenda on Europe (Ruth Davison is riding the wave at the moment, but that won't last).

 

Personally, I think there will be another election by October. The Tories won't let May fight another election for them. Her campaign was terrible. Negative campaigning doesn't work. They should have learned that one after the referendum.

[Window Cleaner]

Very true. However, even with a deal with the DUP, the Tories would have to be unbelievably disciplined to be able to govern. Especially with the Scottish Tories set to have their own agenda on Europe (Ruth Davison is riding the wave at the moment, but that won't last).

 

Personally, I think there will be another election by October. The Tories won't let May fight another election for them. Her campaign was terrible. Negative campaigning doesn't work. They should have learned that one after the referendum.

 

 

Don't know, with the DUP and presumably the ex Ulster Unionist Independant May has 329 votes, given that the true effective of the Commons is 643 without counting the usual absences for illness etc she has some sort of margin. I seem to remember someone governing for a fair time with a theoretic majority of about 2

[Wade Garrett]

Don't know, with the DUP and presumably the ex Ulster Unionist Independant May has 329 votes, given that the true effective of the Commons is 643 without counting the usual absences for illness etc she has some sort of margin. I seem to remember someone governing for a fair time with a theoretic majority of about 2

 

Trouble is, there are plenty of Tories who don't respect democracy and refuse to accept Brexit. Can't see them being disciplined enough to govern with such a small 'majority'.

[scotty]

Don't know, with the DUP and presumably the ex Ulster Unionist Independant May has 329 votes, given that the true effective of the Commons is 643 without counting the usual absences for illness etc she has some sort of margin. I seem to remember someone governing for a fair time with a theoretic majority of about 2

 

Plus of course, although the majority is very small which obviously massively weakens her position, it also depends on every MP outside the coalition voting against legislation as well. That said, I can't see her lasting long; one of her reasons (though it may have been lip-service to counter the self-interest accusations) was that she felt a majority of only 17 wasn't enough margin to negotiate brexit with. If that was really the case, how the hell is she going to manage it after this colossal cockup?

[CB Fry]

Trouble is, there are plenty of Tories who don't respect democracy and refuse to accept Brexit. Can't see them being disciplined enough to govern with such a small 'majority'.

They'll be disciplined now because there is much more of a threat from Labour which, until Thursday, wasn't there before.

 

Both parties need discipline: Corbyn needs to heal the party and bring the moderates back in to form something that actually resembles a government in waiting rather than a sexy little protest vote. The Tories need to hold their sh it together to avoid a leadership contest or election that could see them tumble out of power.

 

Both might succeed, both might fail.

[Badger]

Liked what I heard from Corbyn this morning on Andrew Marr. He wants tariff free trade with Europe, but is committed to Brexit and leaving the single market.

 

Have to say, after voting Tory for the first and only time in my life, their campaign was an absolute shambles.

 

Are these two really compatible ?

[Whitey Grandad]

Are these two really compatible ?

 

A middle position is achievable. It involves EFTA/EEA in stages and I can recommend having a look at this.

 

http://www.eureferendum.com/themarketsolution.pdf

[sadoldgit]

Also those silly people who denigrate voters by claiming they only ever listen to the sun and can't think for themselves.

 

In the past the media, especially the tabloids, have played a big part in elections. Is it good to see that changing now and the influence of The Sun and The Mail is hopefully on the way out. The trouble is one lot of brainwashing gets replaced by another and Twitter and Facebook campaigns are on the rise. As for people not thinking for themselves, there will always be a large number of voters who are spoon feed garbage that they are only too willing to believe just because it suits their agenda. You only have to look at the people who believed that the NHS was going to get £350m a week after Brexit. Advertising works. That is why it is a multi million pound industry. You will no doubt come back and challenge this, so I'll just add a couple of quotes concerning specifically tabloid newspapers in America by H.L Mencken. "No one in the world, as far as I know, and I have searched records for years, and employed agents to help me, has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of plain people." And "Because plain people are able to speak and understand and even, in many cases, to read and write, it is assumed that they have ideas in their heads and an appetite for more. This assumption is a folly." Could explain why UKIP did so well up until Brexit!

[shurlock]

Are these two really compatible ?

 

Per Charles Grant (a remainer)

 

"A softer Brexit is unlikely to mean staying in the single market, since the EU would insist on free movement of labour – a price many Conservative and Labour MPs would not want to pay.

 

But a softer Brexit could mean introducing only modest curbs on free movement, staying in EU regulatory agencies and avoiding a dogmatic rejection of any role for the European court of justice (ECJ). It could even mean maintaining the customs union. There would then be no need for controls and perhaps queues on the EU-UK border – or for customs posts between the north and south of Ireland. But the UK would have to adopt EU tariffs and could not negotiate its own free trade agreements with countries outside the EU. Staying in the customs union would madden the Tory right as much as it would please businesses".

 

It would also madden the kipper mentalists on here; but it would be perfectly compatible with the statements made by McDonnell. Whatever transpires, the Brexit that the mentalists were looking forward to a few days ago is now gone forever.

[John B]

Who would take over from Corbyn going forward? He's getting on a bit and won't be PM. Labour would need to find a far left MP who can present well enough to the public. Not sure how many of those are about.

 

The Labour Manifesto was not far left it was just an anti austerity one there are plenty of labour politicans who are against austerity

[aintforever]

Whatever transpires, the Brexit that the mentalists were looking forward to a few days ago is now gone forever.

 

That's wrong. If there is no deal by early 2019 we go to WTO rules regardless of what our parliament decide.

 

Less Tories and more Labour mean a softer deal is more likely to get through but I can't see the EU giving us a deal good enough, they will go out of their way to make sure we suffer.

[John B]

Liked what I heard from Corbyn this morning on Andrew Marr. He wants tariff free trade with Europe, but is committed to Brexit and leaving the single market.

 

Have to say, after voting Tory for the first and only time in my life, their campaign was an absolute shambles.

 

What have you heard from Corbyn that you have not liked?

 

So why did you vote Tory ?

[John B]

That's wrong. If there is no deal by early 2019 we go to WTO rules regardless of what our parliament decide.

 

Less Tories and more Labour mean a softer deal is more likely to get through but I can't see the EU giving us a deal good enough, they will go out of their way to make sure we suffer.

 

Have you heard or read about anybody from the EU saying they will go out of their way to make sure we suffer I havent but if you have let me know

 

In fact I just heard the Irish Foreign minister say the EU will not go out of their way to make sure we suffer

 

It is something dreamed up by the Right Wing Press

[shurlock]

That's wrong. If there is no deal by early 2019 we go to WTO rules regardless of what our parliament decide.

 

Less Tories and more Labour mean a softer deal is more likely to get through but I can't see the EU giving us a deal good enough, they will go out of their way to make sure we suffer.

 

It's pretty clear that some transitional arrangements will be required. Make the UK suffer? You've been on the kipper glue - if you mean the UK won't be getting something for nothing and a better deal than the it currently enjoys, then clearly. That's commonsense, nowt to do with punishment.

[aintforever]

Have you heard or read about anybody from the EU saying they will go out of their way to make sure we suffer I havent but if you have let me know

 

In fact I just heard the Irish Foreign minister say the EU will not go out of their way to make sure we suffer

 

It is something dreamed up by the Right Wing Press

 

Of course they won't say it but that's what they will do. The moment we triggered article 50 we stopped being with them and became their competitor. That's how capitalism works, there will be countries in the EU who will want our car industry, countries that want our financial service industry - and the EU will do all it can to make sure they get them.

[aintforever]

It's pretty clear that some transitional arrangements will be required. Make the UK suffer? You've been on the kipper glue - if you mean the UK won't be getting something for nothing and a better deal than the it currently enjoys, then clearly. That's commonsense, nowt to do with punishment.

 

Forcing us to have a worse deal, how is that not punishment?

[shurlock]

Forcing us to have a worse deal, how is that not punishment?

 

I don't think you understand how rights and responsibilities work. If the UK isn't willing to accept the responsibilities of being in the EU, it won't enjoy the same rights. Schoolboy stuff.

[moonraker]

I don't think any British ruling party has ever claimed more than 50% of the vote or anything close so that's a very odd benchmark.

 

Whether people like it or not, the Tories are the only legitimate party with a claim to rule. Far more legitimate than Corbyn blathering about his alternative Queen's speech.

Where do I say Corbyn has any legitimacy, therein lies the problem with our antiquated electoral system. When asked the majority of people want politicians to work together for the benefit of the country, no single party is ever likely to command a true majority and the failure of the two main parties to acknowledge this is for me wrong and undemocratic.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Anna Soubry looking upbeat on the BBC earlier, maybe she's heard that Nige is returning, so she can resume wiping the floor with him

 

Wiping the floor, as in losing the referendum?

 

 

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[Lord Duckhunter]

They'll be disciplined now because there is much more of a threat from Labour which, until Thursday, wasn't there before.

 

Both parties need discipline: Corbyn needs to heal the party and bring the moderates back in to form something that actually resembles a government in waiting rather than a sexy little protest vote. The Tories need to hold their sh it together to avoid a leadership contest or election that could see them tumble out of power.

 

Both might succeed, both might fail.

 

Again correct. Their weakness will actually keep them together. Frasier Nelson claimed he was speaking to the "usual suspects" on the back benches and they genuinely think that Corbyn in number 10 will do irreparable damage to the country that will take years to repair. He claimed had Yvette Cooper or Andy Burnham been labour leader they'd move against May & if that leads to a moderate labour government so be it. He claims the strategy is to dig in and hope that the Blairittes do the job of undermining Corbyn for them. Whether it's true or not I don't know, but Nelsons going to be closer to the Tory back benches than any of us on here.

 

A couple of things work in their favour. The DUP pretty much vote with the Tories on most stuff anyway. And the DUP's bargaining position isn't as strong as people make out. They absolutely do not want a Corbyn administration, so when push comes to shove, won't vote down a Tory government, they're basically Orange Tories anyway. And the boundary changes due in 2018. Reducing the numbers of seats to 600 probably won't get through, but equalising constituencies probably will as you can't fight the 2022 election on 12 year old boundaries. These favour the Tories , so sticking around until after their in place is an attraction. 3 years time Corbyn could face having to make 80 gains to win an overall majority.

 

 

 

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Edited 11 June, 2017 by Lord Duckhunter

[doddisalegend]

Forcing us to have a worse deal, how is that not punishment?

 

errr we forced ourselves to take a worse deal the moment we decided to leave. The rest of Europe are hardly going to lets us cherry pick the bits we want and not bother with the rest..

[shurlock]

Wiping the floor, as in losing the referendum?

 

 

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[video=youtube_share;nylBqDwfDrE]

 

And who can forget her description of Nige: "he looks like somebody has put their finger up his bottom and he really rather likes it.”

 

See that Polly T has been tipping Soubry for leader - one of the few who can cross the great divide in the hung parliament

 

Brilliant trolling of the swivel-eyed right though stranger things have happened. Times are a changin'. Deal with it.

[Whitey Grandad]

Forcing us to have a worse deal, how is that not punishment?

 

That was our choice. Nobody forced us into it.