General election? June 8th?

[Sour Mash]

It's naive to think that only committed Tories see the Fail. Right-thinking intelligent people can see through their blatent lies, manipulation and gibberish but unfortunately there's a great swathe of undecided population who simply accept what they see printed without questioning it.

 

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How many people do you think read the Mail, but are undecided about voting Tory?

[benjii]

I think the main problem with education is not the structural organisation of schools but the abandonment of proper teaching methods in favour of hipster ideas about "self-discovery" and "creativity" etc. in previous decades. There has been a corresponding loss of intellectual rigour and love of knowledge/true learning in the classroom. This creates a self-perpetuating decline as the next generation of teachers have been educated in this way; diminishing educational standards, coupled with relatively poor pay deterring high-achievers from entering teaching, makes it very difficult to reverse the decline. I think the Tories are probably the only party likely to make a stand on academic standards (that doesn't mean I think they will necessarily sort it out but there has been a clear raising of expectations at primary level, for example, with much harder SATS at year 6).

 

I'm not a big fan of a fork-in-the-road at age 11 and I don't think many people are. When people speak in favour of grammar schools, nowadays, I think what they really want is a re-emergence of some of the more traditional teaching methods and an assurance that the school values academic rigour and discipline over "self-discovery".

 

That doesn't mean schools should be austere and militaristic or that creativity and expression should be curtailed but I think the balance shifted too far from actual "teaching", in favour of "learning".

[shurlock]

It's naive to think that only committed Tories see the Fail. Right-thinking intelligent people can see through their blatent lies, manipulation and gibberish but unfortunately there's a great swathe of undecided population who simply accept what they see printed without questioning it.

 

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This is different from my original point, before our intrepid, overexcited Sour Mash went off piste.

 

As to your point, do I think the Mail manipulates Tories to vote Tory? Of course not. Do I think the Mail manipulates undecideds? I have no idea and if anything I'm sceptical it does have such influence.

 

Do I think the the Mail makes political debate more polarised and shrill, much harder for different sides to reach agreement on some issues? Yes.

[Verbal]

Laughable of May to offer as an excuse for a snap election that she was being sabotaged in Parliament. The idea that Corbyn is harrying her every move is quite a fantasy, as is the notion that the LibDem troops behind Farron make a damned bit of difference.

 

The reality is May calculates (1) that Corbyn is the worst leader of the Opposition since records began and there's a small danger of his resigning, thus strengthening Labour's position in the country and in Parliament; (2) that she has to outflank the likely CPS prosecutions for electoral fraud in enough Tory seats to wipe out her overall majority; and (3) her real enemy are the hard-Brexiting Tory right, and she needs a majority comfortable enough to deliver a much softer Brexit than they would allow.

[Nolan]

I've got one too...

 

(4) to counter the Arguement that she has no electoral mandate.

 

 

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[Shroppie]

Laughable of May to offer as an excuse for a snap election that she was being sabotaged in Parliament. The idea that Corbyn is harrying her every move is quite a fantasy, as is the notion that the LibDem troops behind Farron make a damned bit of difference.

 

The reality is May calculates (1) that Corbyn is the worst leader of the Opposition since records began and there's a small danger of his resigning, thus strengthening Labour's position in the country and in Parliament; (2) that she has to outflank the likely CPS prosecutions for electoral fraud in enough Tory seats to wipe out her overall majority; and (3) her real enemy are the hard-Brexiting Tory right, and she needs a majority comfortable enough to deliver a much softer Brexit than they would allow.

I'd agree with all of that.

 

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[shurlock]

Laughable of May to offer as an excuse for a snap election that she was being sabotaged in Parliament. The idea that Corbyn is harrying her every move is quite a fantasy, as is the notion that the LibDem troops behind Farron make a damned bit of difference.

 

The reality is May calculates (1) that Corbyn is the worst leader of the Opposition since records began and there's a small danger of his resigning, thus strengthening Labour's position in the country and in Parliament; (2) that she has to outflank the likely CPS prosecutions for electoral fraud in enough Tory seats to wipe out her overall majority; and (3) her real enemy are the hard-Brexiting Tory right, and she needs a majority comfortable enough to deliver a much softer Brexit than they would allow.

 

Agree with most of this analysis but (3) is still anyone's guess and the big wildcard. She's heading for a massive showdown in the future if it is the case since the press and rabid backbenchers are drawing virtually the opposite conclusion.

Edited 19 April, 2017 by shurlock

[Batman]

Nicola Sturgeon April 16th 2017:

 

The Prime Minister isn't even elected, at least I have a mandate from the people, she should hold an election!

 

 

 

 

Nicola Sturgeon April 18th 2017:

 

This is an absolute outrage, what a disgrace to call an election

[shurlock]

Nicola Sturgeon April 16th 2017:

 

The Prime Minister isn't even elected, at least I have a mandate from the people, she should hold an election!

 

 

 

 

Nicola Sturgeon April 18th 2017:

 

This is an absolute outrage, what a disgrace to call an election

 

Are those direct quotes?

[ashnats]

Are those direct quotes?

 

Doubt it. Previously, she has been criticising May's lack of a mandate regarding removal of Scotland from the EU, and asking for a referendum, not a GE.

 

now, she is criticising TM's choice to call a GE and calling it a miscalculation. which is fair enough.

 

She has been consistent in her message before and after the 18th, from what I have seen and heard.

[Batman]

Are those direct quotes?

 

god knows, but the SNP have been all over the place on this on the various interviews seen today.

[Wes Tender]

I've got one too...

 

(4) to counter the Argument that she has no electoral mandate.

 

 

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What a surprise that Verbal and Shurlock didn't think of a reason as blindingly obvious as that one! As undoubtedly avid Guardian readers, surely they read this article explaining that a substantial election victory would considerably improve May's negotiating position with the EU.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/18/mays-real-reason-for-calling-election-to-show-eu-that-brexit-really-means-brexit

 

Unfortunately it hasn't been a good couple of years for them, what with the Conservative election victory in 2015, the referendum decision to leave the EU, the election of Corbyn as Labour Party leader and now the likelihood of a massive increase in the Conservative Parliamentary majority enabling her to thwart the attempts to derail Brexit by the Labour Party at the conclusion of the EU negotiations and the Liberals in the House of Lords.

[ashnats]

What a surprise that Verbal and Shurlock didn't think of a reason as blindingly obvious as that one! As undoubtedly avid Guardian readers, surely they read this article explaining that a substantial election victory would considerably improve May's negotiating position with the EU.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/18/mays-real-reason-for-calling-election-to-show-eu-that-brexit-really-means-brexit

 

Unfortunately it hasn't been a good couple of years for them, what with the Conservative election victory in 2015, the referendum decision to leave the EU, the election of Corbyn as Labour Party leader and now the likelihood of a massive increase in the Conservative Parliamentary majority enabling her to thwart the attempts to derail Brexit by the Labour Party at the conclusion of the EU negotiations and the Liberals in the House of Lords.

 

still not clear whether May intends to use any increase in majority to soften or harden brexit. don't forget - she did campaign for remain...

[aintforever]

They can probably foresee what a cluster-**** the Brexit negotiations are going to be and didn't want to face the electorate in 2020.

[shurlock]

What a surprise that Verbal and Shurlock didn't think of a reason as blindingly obvious as that one! As undoubtedly avid Guardian readers, surely they read this article explaining that a substantial election victory would considerably improve May's negotiating position with the EU.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/18/mays-real-reason-for-calling-election-to-show-eu-that-brexit-really-means-brexit

 

Unfortunately it hasn't been a good couple of years for them, what with the Conservative election victory in 2015, the referendum decision to leave the EU, the election of Corbyn as Labour Party leader and now the likelihood of a massive increase in the Conservative Parliamentary majority enabling her to thwart the attempts to derail Brexit by the Labour Party at the conclusion of the EU negotiations and the Liberals in the House of Lords.

 

Welcome back Les. Hope you're feeling more steady and calm than before. Are you going to vote Tory this time?

Edited 19 April, 2017 by shurlock

[buctootim]

No-one ever stated £300m was to be spent on nhs.

.

 

 

 

Edited 19 April, 2017 by buctootim

[Wes Tender]

still not clear whether May intends to use any increase in majority to soften or harden brexit. don't forget - she did campaign for remain...

 

Just for the sake of argument, if one was a Remoaner in the media and a Labour supporter to boot, how would one go about attempting to destabilise the Conservative vote potential? Ah, yes; suggest that May isn't going to be true to her stance that no deal on Brexit is better than a bad deal, that as she was in the Remain camp during the referendum, she really wants a soft Brexit.

 

Should she achieve a substantial majority in Parliament, her negotiating position with the EU is considerably strengthened, so the possibility of access to the single market without the four so-called freedoms is increased. Once that majority is attained, then she needs to set out her red lines with clarity and state that if they are not agreed, then we will be prepared to have access to the single market under WTO trading terms.

The EU has detailed its red lines and they should be in no doubt as to what ours are before negotiations begin in earnest.

[Wes Tender]

Welcome back Les. Hope you're feeling more steady and calm than before. Are you going to vote Tory this time?

 

I decided to take a small break from your infantile sneering on the EU thread, but May having called this General Election and the prospect being of a considerably enlarged Conservative majority, I'm encouraged to come on this thread and enjoy your discomfort as it all unfolds. For your information, I was never unsteady or uncalm and as you have been told numerous times, as a party member I have always voted Conservative in General Elections.

 

I presume that you now accept your oversight as to the most valid reason for May to call the General Election, that the mandate it will give her strengthens her position in her negotiations with the EU and her ability to control her Brexit agenda in Parliament.

 

Are you going to continue to embarrass yourself further by calling anybody who isn't a leftie a "little kipper", when UKIP's whole raison d'etre has now passed and they will be in terminal decline now that their agenda in British politics has largely been achieved?

[sandwichsaint]

Just for the sake of argument, if one was a Remoaner in the media and a Labour supporter to boot, how would one go about attempting to destabilise the Conservative vote potential? Ah, yes; suggest that May isn't going to be true to her stance that no deal on Brexit is better than a bad deal, that as she was in the Remain camp during the referendum, she really wants a soft Brexit.

 

Should she achieve a substantial majority in Parliament, her negotiating position with the EU is considerably strengthened, so the possibility of access to the single market without the four so-called freedoms is increased. Once that majority is attained, then she needs to set out her red lines with clarity and state that if they are not agreed, then we will be prepared to have access to the single market under WTO trading terms.

The EU has detailed its red lines and they should be in no doubt as to what ours are before negotiations begin in earnest.

 

Any chance we could see the red lines before we vote?

[buctootim]

as you have been told numerous times, as a party member I have always voted Conservative in General Elections

 

Lets hope you're not a Tory reneging on a categoric assurance - like £350m for the NHS or no election before 2020.

Edited 19 April, 2017 by buctootim

[Batman]

i think it is safe to say, both sides lie out of their arses

Just like Both the Mail and the Guardian are ultra biased in their views.

[Saint86]

And the Daily Fail launching into this story will sadly set the tone for the campaign. A repeat of the lies and misinformation of the referendum campaign .

 

Our right-wing press are now so uncontrolled they can peddle any slurs, lies and rubbish to be lapped up by the unthinking masses, without fear of challenge.

 

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Sadly this is an all too systemic viewpoint of the left. The press must be censored (at least the part which disagrees with them).

 

It has nothing to do with the fact that is what he said or that that was leaked on national news before it hit the papers... Just blame the far right press.

 

Just like all Brexiteers are voters.

 

When will these far left wing people understand that they are the ones at odds with the population, and that when you accuse people of being far right etc you are actually insulting the bulk of the population?

[Sour Mash]

 

 

Please tell me that's not all you could come up with after several hours.

 

Which lies are being told?

[Verbal]

Agree with most of this analysis but (3) is still anyone's guess and the big wildcard. She's heading for a massive showdown in the future if it is the case since the press and rabid backbenchers are drawing virtually the opposite conclusion.

 

Indeed they are. The Mail in particular is rabidly, almost violently for hard Brexit, with its repeated banner headlines about saboteurs and gay (therefore suspect) supreme court justices, etc. However, May has to head off a number of huge political and economic problems, including a constitutional crisis that could lead to the break-up of the UK, a growing wave of UK companies and banks setting up EU safe houses, and falling foreign investment (including remerging panic attacks from companies like Nissan).

 

She also learned last week that not one of the remaining 27 in the EU would agree to substantive negotiations on a trade deal without the terms of divorce being known. This is the clearest indication yet that she's up against an increasingly united EU, at least on the issue of Brexit. (Her rather idiotic provocations haven't helped win friends.)

 

So she's going to need political wiggle room to do a deal that's not 'no deal', just to stop several threads all unravelling at once. (The idea that she actually thinks no deal is workable in any way is another Brexiter wet dream that won't see the light of day).

 

Welcome back Les. Hope you're feeling more steady and calm than before. Are you going to vote Tory this time?

 

His return is a bit of a challenge for me, quite frankly. My multilingual skills are quite tested by having to translate his Irvingisms into Yiddish while having to rabbit with Lord Pony, truly the Di ck Van Dyke of Cockney rhymers. A right pair of kippers in any language.

[OldNick]

#notsureifserious

 

You 'do' realise that in a Grammar school system around 75% of kids go to a Secondary Modern school?

I meant the opportunity to go to Grammer school. I went to a secondary school and so thats why I dont explain it so well

[Lord Duckhunter]

Going to be great to see the assorted snowflakes & lefties routed AGAIN. They're so out of touch with 21st century England

 

 

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[shurlock]

I decided to take a small break from your infantile sneering on the EU thread, but May having called this General Election and the prospect being of a considerably enlarged Conservative majority, I'm encouraged to come on this thread and enjoy your discomfort as it all unfolds. For your information, I was never unsteady or uncalm and as you have been told numerous times, as a party member I have always voted Conservative in General Elections.

 

I presume that you now accept your oversight as to the most valid reason for May to call the General Election, that the mandate it will give her strengthens her position in her negotiations with the EU and her ability to control her Brexit agenda in Parliament.

 

Are you going to continue to embarrass yourself further by calling anybody who isn't a leftie a "little kipper", when UKIP's whole raison d'etre has now passed and they will be in terminal decline now that their agenda in British politics has largely been achieved?

 

Where did you go? Margate - I hear that's very popular among your kind Les. It was also Passover, though I doubt that explains it

 

You seemed very unsteady and overexcited on the other thread, as others pointed out. Hopefully the break has done you some good and there won't be anymore episodes.

 

No, I don't think the election fundamentally strengthens May's hand with the EU to the extent that you claim: the idea that the UK would change its mind during negotiations is utterly fanciful, the chances of it happening so remote that I doubt it would have been the EU's baseline position or seen as providing much leverage.

 

Either way, the EU's position is going to be exactly the same. Hopefully May will also be more forthcoming about trade-offs this election -she's hinted at a transitional or implementation period during which the UK would comply with Freedom of Movement among other things. Perhaps she'll be explicit about this and provide other details. Or maybe she'll maintain the nice little fiction than the UK can cherrypick its preferred deal that you and other kippers have so innocently lapped up.

Edited 19 April, 2017 by shurlock

[Wes Tender]

His return is a bit of a challenge for me, quite frankly. My multilingual skills are quite tested by having to translate his Irvingisms into Yiddish while having to rabbit with Lord Pony, truly the Di ck Van Dyke of Cockney rhymers. A right pair of kippers in any language.

 

I'm really enjoying the discomfort that you two must be feeling at the turn of events recently. Both of you think that you are so clever, but fail to realise that your petty insults and puerile name-calling diminish your credibility. You two just carry on with it and we your targets will just take it as a sign that you're really hurting and enjoy the schadenfreude.

[shurlock]

I'm really enjoying the discomfort that you two must be feeling at the turn of events recently. Both of you think that you are so clever, but fail to realise that your petty insults and puerile name-calling diminish your credibility. You two just carry on with it and we your targets will just take it as a sign that you're really hurting and enjoy the schadenfreude.

 

You do demonstrate a stunning lack of self-awareness, Les. In same breath, bemoaning the little kipper moniker, then referring to others as lefties.

[Verbal]

I'm really enjoying the discomfort that you two must be feeling at the turn of events recently. Both of you think that you are so clever, but fail to realise that your petty insults and puerile name-calling diminish your credibility. You two just carry on with it and we your targets will just take it as a sign that you're really hurting and enjoy the schadenfreude.

 

We were all having a perfectly sensible discussion until you trolled along.

 

What a putz.

 

...and back to the thread.

[John Boy Saint]

Its all a ruse to winkle out Boris.

[OldNick]

 

I cant stand Farage and his UKIP agenda, but why would people believe he had the power to give any money of our EU contribution to anything???

[Wes Tender]

You do demonstrate a stunning lack of self-awareness, Les. In same breath, bemoaning the little kipper moniker, then referring to others as lefties.

 

Quite happy to dish it out, but not so pleased to get it back, eh?

[Saint_clark]

 

 

 

Nigel Farage said "I'd like to spend this money on schools, hospitals and GPs", the big bus slogan read "we send £350million a week to the EU - let's fund our NHS instead".

 

So nobody promised or made a pledge, and indeed it's ridiculous to try and hold them responsible - the Leave campaign were asked over and over again in a cynical, sarcastic fashion what we should do if we left the EU and these sorts of suggestions are what were made. Now they're being treated as promises even though people like Farage are in no position to enact them. You think we SHOULD spend that money on the NHS now we're leaving? Great, lobby your local MP.

[Nolan]

No MP will have the ability to spend the 350 mil gross (200mil net) if the EU will have their way with the divorce settlement the y are wanting.

 

Better strengthen Mrs May's hand of toy wasn't to strengthen the position of the united kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

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[shurlock]

Quite happy to dish it out, but not so pleased to get it back, eh?

 

Not at all. It seems that you're the only who gets his knickers in a twist over the namecalling yet are as guilty as anyone of doing it.

[Pamplemousse]

Going to be great to see the assorted snowflakes & lefties routed AGAIN. They're so out of touch with 21st century England

 

 

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I can't stand those Momentum idiots. Utter utter morons, all of them.

[Pamplemousse]

Interesting article about the historical accuracy of the polls

 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-u-k-snap-election-is-riskier-than-it-seems/

[Jonnyboy]

the Guardian are on the other foot...but they are a fair and balanced piece of business

 

Where's the Guardian headline calling for the crushing of the Brexit voters?

[Shroppie]

I question the assertion that's immediately being made by Teresa May that a bigger majority will give her a stronger negotiating hand with the EU.

 

I can't see why the other 27 countries would give a t0ss how big her majority is. They still hold all the cards and can make things as difficult as they like.

 

I do accept that a big majority will help her ride roughshod over any dissent in parliament to push through any agreement, no matter how bad.

 

I also accept that this would let her turn round to the electorate and say they showed their trust in her and gave her a mandate to negotiate as she wishes, so she can claim she has a free hand to do whatever she likes.

 

So it gives her a lot of personal benefit but doesn't benefit the country or in any way give us a way of getting a better Brexit deal.

 

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[buctootim]

Evening Standard are quoting the CBI as thinking May has called the election in order to push through softer 'transitional' deals on immigration and free trade which inevitably become permanent. The thinking is that the Tories would have been punished in 2020 but 2022 buys them more time.

[Manuel]

So how do we get rid of the tories?

 

Lib/Lab coalition? Including the SNP - would that even work?

 

Lib Dems launching a Remain in EU policy campaign?

[Nolan]

So how do we get rid of the tories?

 

Lib/Lab coalition? Including the SNP - would that even work?

 

Lib Dems launching a Remain in EU policy campaign?

You get rid of the Tories by moving to an alternate dimension where Corbyn doesn't exist. Alternatively you wait at least 5 years, possibly 10.

 

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[Wade Garrett]

I have always voted Labour.

 

I voted for Brexit and I want the referendum vote to be seen through in the divorce deal with the EU. I'm not anti-immigration, but it's vital we have full control of our borders, and our elected government have full control over laws and policies.

 

I absolutely will not be voting Labour in this election. The leadership is appalling and the party has been hijacked by Momentum. It's not a party that represents working people, just like the Union that I have been in for the last 23 years doesn't represent its members any more.

 

Teresa May needs to offer decent policies on health, education and the economy. I am fed up to the back teeth of draconian cuts in public services.

 

I am a million miles from ever voting Liberal or Green.

 

On balance, I wouldn't be massively unhappy if whoever won the election delivered the Brexit deal I want. But throw in some decent policies elsewhere please.

[buctootim]

So how do we get rid of the tories?

 

Lib/Lab coalition? Including the SNP - would that even work?

 

Lib Dems launching a Remain in EU policy campaign?

 

Master tactitian Corbyn has ruled out working with other opposition parties to ensure the anti Tory vote isnt split in marginal constituencies

http://uk.businessinsider.com/snap-general-election-2017-green-party-calls-for-electoral-pacts-with-labour-2017-4?r=US&IR=T

[Manuel]

Ok, but didn't think I saw any mention of the SNP there, and Crankie seems open to the suggestion.

 

I can't see Corbyn's Labour having a chance on its own. I think there's enough anti-tory feeling in the country right now for there to be a successful coalition agreement if they could only get their acts together.

[Batman]

Ok, but didn't think I saw any mention of the SNP there, and Crankie seems open to the suggestion.

 

I can't see Corbyn's Labour having a chance on its own. I think there's enough anti-tory feeling in the country right now for there to be a successful coalition agreement if they could only get their acts together.

 

exactly the same was said two years ago.

You are going on as if the result in 2015 never happened!

Edited 19 April, 2017 by Batman

[Lighthouse]

So how do we get rid of the tories?

 

Lib/Lab coalition? Including the SNP - would that even work?

 

Lib Dems launching a Remain in EU policy campaign?

 

We don't, Britain is a centre-right country and has been for a long time. We haven't had a proper left wing PM since Pompey Jim and his winter of discount tents.

[buctootim]

We haven't had a proper left wing PM since Pompey Jim and his winter of discount tents.

 

Callaghan wasn't left wing! He was a middle of the road Social Democrat. Granted he has some left wing head bangers in his cabinet, like Tony Benn and Barbara Castle but he mostly kept them on a leash.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I think there's enough anti-tory feeling in the country right now for there to be a successful coalition agreement if they could only get their acts together.

 

You're deluded man if you really believe that pony. The Tories haven't been this popular since good old Mrs T. They're going to get in with an increased majority, no worries .

 

 

 

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