General election? June 8th?

[whelk]

Has 'strong and stable' been exhausted and retired?

Fcked people's bingo card tonight #willofthepeople #moneyfckingtree

[whelk]

On the contrary, if you are going up against an enemy who will not fire then you hold all the aces. Remove the threat, remove the deterrent.

 

That will be all the spur Kim Jong-Un needs. Reckon within a month one will be flying over. Don't be foole that they have t got close to a fraction of the distance. He'll spot Corbyn's weakness. #imminent #bakedbeans

[shurlock]

Corbyn should have sorted out the "would you press it" question...the answer can only be "yes" otherwise why are Labour planning to fund it?

 

Overall May wasn't the disaster I was expecting and Corbyn didn't smash it as much as I'd hoped.

 

Wrong. Because a country could launch a devastating nuclear second strike even after absorbing a massive first strike, nuclear weapons are, in Colin Powell's words, "useless".

 

More important, in the context of a security threat, is the ability to escalate upto the point of using nuclear weapons. That depends on having more conventional weapons which can practically and credibly be used. Note that the threat of punishment is most credible when it is seen as proportionate to the seriousness of the offence which means having carrots and sticks appropriate for different levels of escalation. Thomas Schelling made this point years ago, though doubt he was in mind of the liver-shot halfwits in the QT audience.

 

As CB Fry says no PM in their lifetime is going to press the red button. A damning verdict of our democracy and public debate if this becomes some kind of gotcha moment. No doubt it will be for the swivel-eyeds who, baying for an answer to a mindboggling hypothetical, only end up trivialising the issue. There are much better things to grill and take Corbyn to task over.

 

Thought the audience was out of its depth tonight -with the exception of Neil, the experts (Paxman etc) haven't fared much better.

Edited 3 June, 2017 by shurlock

[aintforever]

Avoiding the melodramatic tone, you miss the point made by Batman and Manuel.

 

No point having a deterrent if the person in charge finds it vulgar. It's a contradiction for Corbyn to fund it when he will not use it.

 

It may as well not exist on that basis. As such, he is at best wasting billions, at worst leaving us vulnerable to annihilation.

 

If it is there it is still a deterant regardless of who is PM.

 

****ing huge waste of money anyway. The days of major civilised nations going to war are long gone.

[Manuel]

Wrong. Because a country could launch a devastating nuclear second strike even after absorbing a massive first strike, nuclear weapons aren't particularly credible.

 

More important is the ability to escalate and make threats upto the point of using nuclear weapons. That depends on having an integrated set of military sticks (and carrots) so that policymakers can move freely up and down the escalation ladder so that threats are actually credible. Note also that threats are most credible when they are seen as proportionate to the act being challenged.

 

As CB Fry says no PM in their lifetime is going to press the red button. A damning verdict of the quality of our democracy if this becomes some kind of gotcha moment. No doubt it will be for the swivel-eyeds and halfwits. There are much better things to grill and take Corbyn apart over.

 

Thought the audience was out of its depth tonight -with the exception of Neil, the experts (Paxman etc) haven't been much better.

Then he should stand by nuclear disarmament 100% and not fund Trident if that's his policy. There's no point funding something you're not prepared to use, no matter how much diplomacy you have to offer. I understand the unlikelihood but he needed to say he'd use if if necessary. Not doing so might lose votes.

[CB Fry]

Then he should stand by nuclear disarmament 100% and not fund Trident if that's his policy. There's no point funding something you're not prepared to use, no matter how much diplomacy you have to offer. I understand the unlikelihood but he needed to say he'd use if if necessary. Not doing so might lose votes.

The point is it is Labour party policy to renew Trident, not "his policy". As not a fan of Corbyn at all, at least he has stuck to that party position against his own personal opinion.

 

So, he's backed down in the fairly tame environment of Labour party executive committees, let's take that up several hundred notches into the theatre of war and facing the actual MOD, the actual armed forces chiefs and actual real life decisions.

 

In this pointlessly hypothetical situation that the Question Time droolers were blathering about, any dithering by Corbyn would be overruled by his defense sec, the MOD and the rest of Cobra/War Cabinet/whoever and BOOM BOOM FU CKING BOOOOOOM THERE GO THE GOOOOOKS YES YES YES YES

[Jonnyboy]

It's the ultimate question as a leader. To what lengths will you go to defend this country?

 

That he avoided the question tells me that he unfit to lead. He cannot be pragmatic, he cannot compromise his own principles for the survival of our country. Our entire nations' defense would be undermined by having that spineless individual in charge.

 

...

[Lord Duckhunter]

Then he should stand by nuclear disarmament 100% and not fund Trident if that's his policy. There's no point funding something you're not prepared to use, no matter how much diplomacy you have to offer. I understand the unlikelihood but he needed to say he'd use if if necessary. Not doing so might lose votes.

 

Correct.

 

Corbyn is clearly against Trident but won't say outright because it'll cost him votes. He had to toe the party line because failure to do so would have really caused issues with the PLP. He's abandoned his principles for votes & the party, just like every other politician. So much for being a different type of politician

 

 

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[Jonnyboy]

Correct.

 

Corbyn is clearly against Trident but won't say outright because it'll cost him votes. He had to toe the party line because failure to do so would have really caused issues with the PLP. He's abandoned his principles for votes & the party, just like every other politician. So much for being a different type of politician

 

 

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Incorrect, haven't you read post #1406?

 

Its not about being a different type of politician. Every politician in history has had to play the party and vote game to some degree. The media had made him out to be some sort of communist dictator but actually he's happy to act out the will of the party. A refreshing consensus politics.

[Lord Duckhunter]

A refreshing consensus politics.

 

"Consensus politics" LOL. Really? That is the last thing you can label him & his supporters. If he stays after his defeat, he'll purge the party of moderates, de select opponents & change the trident policy. He's not toeing the party line for a consensus, but because it would have cost him votes or even the leadership.

 

Lets see his version of refreshing consensus politics when the inquest after his defeat is held. My bet is they'll blame the moderates,I can hear it now,"if only they'd backed Jezza from the start, he'd have won". The bile aimed at "Red Tories"will be far from consensual.

 

 

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[moonraker]

In 1964 Wilson before the election Wilson was in a similar place to Corbyn, we were building the first CASD capability and Harold would not commit, indeed opposed it. Once elected and fully briefed on why we needed it he changed and the

Polaris ptogramme was delivered in quick time. Of course the electorate then was dominated by people who really understood the horrors of military jingoism and major conflict and could empathise with a politician who was willing to question the need for such a orrifically destructive capability. None of us on here have any idea what global conflict means. For the record I support CASD, but welcome continual scrutiny and reappraisal as to its relevance.

[Batman]

The point is it is Labour party policy to renew Trident, not "his policy". As not a fan of Corbyn at all, at least he has stuck to that party position against his own personal opinion.

 

So, he's backed down in the fairly tame environment of Labour party executive committees, let's take that up several hundred notches into the theatre of war and facing the actual MOD, the actual armed forces chiefs and actual real life decisions.

 

In this pointlessly hypothetical situation that the Question Time droolers were blathering about, any dithering by Corbyn would be overruled by his defense sec, the MOD and the rest of Cobra/War Cabinet/whoever and BOOM BOOM FU CKING BOOOOOOM THERE GO THE GOOOOOKS YES YES YES YES

 

again, renewing Trident is very different to the terms on which it is deployed.

Not deploying CASD would be a huge waste of money and a step down.

throw in a leader of the country telling everyone we would not use it...may as well cancel the new subs

 

 

the Journo Paul Mason is tiresome. now suggesting if you have a pop at Dianne Abbot, you could be a racist!

Edited 3 June, 2017 by Batman

[OldNick]

All those non labour supporters who thought it funny to register to vote for Corbyn as party leader thinking it would destroy them must be regretting it now. At the time I thought it was a stupid thing to do, but now!!!!!!!

[OldNick]

Has anybody asked Corbyn yet ,what would he do if a large group of Argie soldiers rocked up in the Falklands and started to make abase, or any other British territory. As a pacifist I assume he would just go and wave a white flag. Hs obvious weakness may well turn into us having more of a chance of conflict as people will take advantage of no conflict at any cost

[Nolan]

He doesn't respect the Falklands right to self determination.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/24/jeremy-corbyn-power-sharing-deal-falkland-islands-argentina

 

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[shurlock]

again, renewing Trident is very different to the terms on which it is deployed.

Not deploying CASD would be a huge waste of money and a step down.

throw in a leader of the country telling everyone we would not use it...may as well cancel the new subs

 

 

the Journo Paul Mason is tiresome. now suggesting if you have a pop at Dianne Abbot, you could be a racist!

 

Iain Dale looked like he was going to cry.

[Shroppie]

He doesn't respect the Falklands right to self determination.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/24/jeremy-corbyn-power-sharing-deal-falkland-islands-argentina

 

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You really are getting desperate now, aren't you? And with good reason. A Tory landslide is now as likely as snow in July. Fortunately.

 

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[Verbal]

You really are getting desperate now, aren't you? And with good reason. A Tory landslide is now as likely as snow in July. Fortunately.

 

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On that subject, we should get a few predictions in, now that we're in the last weekend before the election.

 

I'll go for a May majority of 30+. Corbyn is on something of a surge, but the polls are doing what they always do - over-estimating the scale of a Labour vote that depends disproportionately on younger voters and those who are less likely to vote.

 

Of course, the consequences of this will be the worst, economically, in living memory, with the 'a terrible deal is better than a bad deal' slogan driving May over the Brexit cliff, with the free trade jihadists in her party ready to push her if she even this of faltering.

[OldNick]

On that subject, we should get a few predictions in, now that we're in the last weekend before the election.

 

I'll go for a May majority of 30+. Corbyn is on something of a surge, but the polls are doing what they always do - over-estimating the scale of a Labour vote that depends disproportionately on younger voters and those who are less likely to vote.

 

Of course, the consequences of this will be the worst, economically, in living memory, with the 'a terrible deal is better than a bad deal' slogan driving May over the Brexit cliff, with the free trade jihadists in her party ready to push her if she even this of faltering.

The best would be a large Tory majority whoever you vote towards IMO as if she can have a big enough majority that the very rabid Brexiteers cant say no if she comes back with a softer deal. At present she will rely on the extreme Brexit MPs to vote a deeal in. If their vote is unimportant she can still push a more watered down deal through. I suspect you may scoff at that but it is the way I see it, as she is the most lef-centre PM the tories have had in living memory.

Labour have fought a very clever campaign and Corbyn has come across as an unthreatening geography teacher (I couldnt put maths teacher lol)

It terrifies me if he did get in, as from my standpoint the country cant afford it at this momentous period in our lifetime. Some of his policies I would be happy with, but others are just aimed to feed the Envy Party.

I would be delighted if there was a better set to vote for but there is nothing that hits what I really want for society

[Verbal]

The best would be a large Tory majority whoever you vote towards IMO as if she can have a big enough majority that the very rabid Brexiteers cant say no if she comes back with a softer deal. At present she will rely on the extreme Brexit MPs to vote a deeal in. If their vote is unimportant she can still push a more watered down deal through. I suspect you may scoff at that but it is the way I see it, as she is the most lef-centre PM the tories have had in living memory.

Labour have fought a very clever campaign and Corbyn has come across as an unthreatening geography teacher (I couldnt put maths teacher lol)

It terrifies me if he did get in, as from my standpoint the country cant afford it at this momentous period in our lifetime. Some of his policies I would be happy with, but others are just aimed to feed the Envy Party.

I would be delighted if there was a better set to vote for but there is nothing that hits what I really want for society

 

I hear that a lot - that somehow a big majority will mean she is free of the free trade jihadists on her backbenches. I don't buy it. Far too many of what's likely to be the intake are hard, no-deal Brexit enthusiasts.

 

The only way of negotiating a decent Brexit - and I never thought I'd say this - is with a Corbyn win. That won't happen. But his Brexit team of Starmer and Gardiner are far superior to BoJo, Fox, et al. The former want a deal that is somewhat close to a Swiss or Norwegian arrangement - something, in other words, that will work without crashing the economy. The latter are too economically and legally illiterate to buy a packet of biscuits.

 

As for Corbyn and the 'geography teacher' label - none of this works any more. Creeping back into British electoral politics is a desire for authenticity, no matter where it's found. The appallingly robotic May is a perfectly constructed ideal of a politician who's push-button-select-answer inauthentic. That's why she's running the worst Tory campaign since the execrable IDS (clue: he was knifed before he was ever allowed to run one).

[moonraker]

While I am no Corbyn supporter I find it odd that he fails to answer one question as is lambasted by our resident right wing loons, May hasn't answered any questions and is lauded by the salf same loons as future great hope.

[Batman]

While I am no Corbyn supporter I find it odd that he fails to answer one question as is lambasted by our resident right wing loons, May hasn't answered any questions and is lauded by the salf same loons as future great hope.

 

i think it is because Jezza promised a new, honest, fair kind of politics.

not happened at all. where is it?

 

it is just a game on who side-steps the questions the best.

a vast majority of people do not even bother to watch these tedious televised debates with the leaders squabbling over each other and/or clapping seals planted in the audience for each side.

I mean, a party manifesto is a load of shyte really. Who actually reads and believes them??

 

Corbyn and this brand of Labour will lose in a few days. We all know it. They even know it

Edited 3 June, 2017 by Batman

[Nolan]

While I am no Corbyn supporter I find it odd that he fails to answer one question as is lambasted by our resident right wing loons, May hasn't answered any questions and is lauded by the salf same loons as future great hope.

When when the question is "are the IRA bad? " or "would you protect the nation?" those are pretty important.

 

I'm surprised one of Labours pledges isn't to change our national anthem to kum by yah.

 

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[Lord Duckhunter]

All those non labour supporters who thought it funny to register to vote for Corbyn as party leader thinking it would destroy them must be regretting it now. At the time I thought it was a stupid thing to do, but now!!!!!!!

 

If Corbyn hoovers up greens & Lib dem votes and racks up votes where they're already safe, he could quite easily reach 36% of the vote & we still end up with a Tory majority of 70. With 6% more of the vote share than Brown & 5% more than Milliband it'll be hard to shift him. Kinnock got 30% of the vote and stayed on even though Thatcher got over 100 majority. Clearly it was different as he actually cut the majority she had, but the people who surround Corbyn are not going to give in to the moderates and go easily.

 

If the Tories are facing Corbyn or another hard left candidate in 5 years time they'll be absolutely delighted.

 

 

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Edited 3 June, 2017 by Lord Duckhunter

[Batman]

If Corbyn hoovers up greens & Lib dem votes and racks up votes where they're already safe, he could quite reach 36% of the vote & we will end up with a Tory majority of 70. With 6% more of the vote share than Brown & 5% more than Milliband it'll be hard to shift him. Kinnock got 30% of the vote and stayed on even though Thatcher got over 100 majority. Clearly it was different as he actually cut the majority she had, but the people who surround Corbyn are not going to give in to the moderates and go easily.

 

If the Tories are facing Corbyn or another hard left candidate in 5 years time they'll be absolutely delighted.

 

 

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Stand by for big demonstrations and things being smashed (again) as many will not be able to accept the result.

Probably be wise to stay away from London next weekend

[OldNick]

While I am no Corbyn supporter I find it odd that he fails to answer one question as is lambasted by our resident right wing loons, May hasn't answered any questions and is lauded by the salf same loons as future great hope.

Right wing or Left wing loons, surely our national sovereinty is ultra important.

Corbyns standpoint is pacifism, so will that empower other nations who have a longterm grievance over Falklands Gibralter, theres bound to be others?

Personally if I was the Argentinian regime I would be looking at plans to put a few boats of soldiers to parts of the Falklands to test Corbyns nerve. I would expect he would not empower outr forces to make any aggresive move but be on the phone to the UN and ask them to ask the aggresive power to sit and talk. That would end with us losing part if not all of our claim to those islands.

I dont want people killed but without a doubt in my mind there are people out there who would take a chance as they would see him as weak. He admitted he wouldnt take out any ISIS leaders if he got the oppportunity.

It is also hypocritical of this new man of politics of authenticity who goes on about less Policement but has been anti them all along.

[shurlock]

More Tory shambles and mixed messages over policy - this time, over income tax.

 

Shame that Hammond is seemingly being sidelined. Was the only adult in the room in what is a pîss-poor Cabinet.

Edited 3 June, 2017 by shurlock

[Jonnyboy]

Has anybody asked Corbyn yet ,what would he do if a large group of Argie soldiers rocked up in the Falklands and started to make abase, or any other British territory. As a pacifist I assume he would just go and wave a white flag. Hs obvious weakness may well turn into us having more of a chance of conflict as people will take advantage of no conflict at any cost

 

He's not a pacifist.

[Nolan]

I don't see the mixed messages. You lose money if you put the 45% rate up to 50%. So how is saying that you won't put it up a mixed message?

 

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[Jonnyboy]

Stand by for big demonstrations and things being smashed (again) as many will not be able to accept the result.

Probably be wise to stay away from London next weekend

 

Are the Countryside Alliance back in town?

[Winnersaint]

Stand by for big demonstrations and things being smashed (again) as many will not be able to accept the result.

Probably be wise to stay away from London next weekend

 

WTF are you on about?

[shurlock]

I don't see the mixed messages. You lose money if you put the 45% rate up to 50%. So how is saying that you won't put it up a mixed message?

 

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Not revisiting old ground and getting into the economics with a 5-year old.

 

Today's desperate and opportunistic statement from Fallon is all over the place and at odds with the Tory Manifesto - so much so that a party spokesman had to 'clarify' things.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/b595f038-4846-11e7-a3f4-c742b9791d43

 

So yes, mixed messages aplenty but not surprised you missed it as it seems a daily occurrence for the Tories.

[Nolan]

When the 50% rate went down to 45% tax receipts went up.

 

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[Batman]

Not revisiting old ground and getting into the economics with a 5-year old.

 

Today's desperate and opportunistic statement from Fallon is all over the place and at odds with the Tory Manifesto - so much so that a party spokesman had to 'clarify' things.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/b595f038-4846-11e7-a3f4-c742b9791d43

 

So yes, mixed messages aplenty but not surprised you missed it as it seems a daily occurrence for the Tories.

all academic. Labour have lost this. We all know it

[shurlock]

When the 50% rate went down to 45% tax receipts went up.

 

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Glad you agree that party is sending out mixed messages as you seem to eager to change the subject.

 

You get the politicians you deserve. Couldnt be truer with you, little fella

[Nolan]

Glad you agree that party is sending out mixed messages as you seem to eager to change the subject.

 

You get the politicians you deserve. Couldnt be truer with you, little fella [emoji38]

You're right i do think we deserve a politician who isn't a terrorist sympathiser.

 

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Edited 3 June, 2017 by Nolan

[Batman]

Labour are a shambles, send out mixed messages, fluff their lines and do not answer questions

Tory's do it too. why takes sides on that?

 

at the end of the day, the country is not going to vote in Corbyn to be PM along with McDonnell with his hands on the nations wallet and no way will the nation vote to bring Dianne Abbott as home secretary.........just no chance

[shurlock]

all academic. Labour have lost this. We all know it

 

It's anything but academic: the statement is potentially another straitjacket at a time of uncertainty when HM Treasury needs as much flexibility to manage the economy as possible. Hammond was sensible and adult enough to acknowledge this reality.

 

The Tories will win on Thursday. But politically it only adds to the appearance of incompetence, indiscipline and confusion in the Tory party, damaging its credibility to govern -whether in terms of implementing its domestic agenda or dealing with third parties i.e. the EU. It will have electoral consequences down the line.

Edited 3 June, 2017 by shurlock

[shurlock]

Labour are a shambles, send out mixed messages, fluff their lines and do not answer questions

Tory's do it too. why takes sides on that?

 

at the end of the day, the country is not going to vote in Corbyn to be PM along with McDonnell with his hands on the nations wallet and no way will the nation vote to bring Dianne Abbott as home secretary.........just no chance

 

Because the Tories pride themselves on their discipline, competence and realism. That Labour is perceived a shambles is nothing new and already baked into the price. If anything, people are partly revising that assessment as Corbyn is outperforming what were very low expectations.

[Batman]

Because the Tories pride themselves on their discipline, competence and realism. That Labour is perceived a shambles is nothing new and already baked into the price. If anything, people are partly revising that assessment as Corbyn is outperforming what were very low expectations.

 

and jezza takes pride on his honest, new and open kind of politics

not really visible is it

 

both are pretty crap. Jezza and more so his top team are far more unelectable to the masses

[Lord Duckhunter]

WTF are you on about?

 

What's he's on about is lefties refusing to accept democratic results. Personally I enjoy their marches & protests and the whine fest on tv. Makes their defeats even funnier

 

 

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[shurlock]

What's he's on about is lefties refusing to accept democratic results. Personally I enjoy their marches & protests and the whine fest on tv. Makes their defeats even funnier

 

 

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Wasnt it KGB spy, Farage who anticipating a remain win was alleging conspiracies and electoral shenanigans? Your image as a dim kipper is reinforced, pal, if you don't think the leave campaign would have been whining had it lost the referendum.

 

Btw were you one of the many voters who thought MI5 was conspiring with the government to stop Brexit

Edited 3 June, 2017 by shurlock

[aintforever]

Your right a do think we deserve a politician who isn't a terrorist sympathiser.

 

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And in English?

[shurlock]

And in English?

 

[Jonnyboy]

Lol at the righties on here panicking. Reminds me of the ones running the Tory campaign.

[Batman]

Lol at the righties on here panicking. Reminds me of the ones running the Tory campaign.

 

no one is panicking mate, it is in the bag. always has been.

[aintforever]

The Tories are obviously going to win but the way they are struggling up against a bunch of no hopers like Corbyn and Abbot is ****ing embarrassing. It's like watching Pompey get promoted from div 4.

 

I actually hope they win just to see what a complete mess they make of Brexit.

[Winnersaint]

What's he's on about is lefties refusing to accept democratic results. Personally I enjoy their marches & protests and the whine fest on tv. Makes their defeats even funnier

 

 

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When did that happen after a democratic vote then?

[shurlock]

The Tories are obviously going to win but the way they are struggling up against a bunch of no hopers like Corbyn and Abbot is ****ing embarrassing. It's like watching Pompey get promoted from div 4.

 

I actually hope they win just to see what a complete mess they make of Brexit.

 

Yep look forward to seeing the Tories have to eat their own cooking.

[Batman]

Yep look forward to seeing the Tories have to eat their own cooking.

 

guess it depends on the pollster you trust the most.

Yougov say that the tories could lose seats (but give an 80 seat margin of error)

comres believe that if voting trends remain largely the same as 2015, the tories could win by a 100+ seat majority.