General election? June 8th?

[Nolan]

How long will a feasibility study for a port in Birmingham last?

 

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[buctootim]

How long will a feasibility study for a port in Birmingham last?

 

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It's a pity you didn't do a module on Clear communication

[Nolan]

Corporation tax income over the last few years as the rates had come down.

 

If we are to reverse the rates... Where does Corbyns extra money come from?

[buctootim]

This is what I said, so I don't really see how that can be twisted into a call for French levels of tax, I haven't even called for a French health system, merely pointed out that it's better than the "envy of the world " one we have. I realise that you dinosaurs are wedded to the 1950's so won't open your eyes to the absolute disaster area ours is

 

Are you saying the NHS hasnt changed and that successive Governments have been lying to us for decades about introducing the purchaser-provider split, internal market, self governing hospitals, GP commissioning, PFI hospitals etc etc? How odd.

 

All this expert opinion from someone who didn't even know that 200 for profit hospitals even existed in the UK or that there were was a severe nursing shortage nationwide. tbh if you don't even know the absolute basics its best not to pontificate on the harder stuff.

[Verbal]

Are you saying the NHS hasnt changed and that successive Governments have been lying to us for decades about introducing the purchaser-provider split, internal market, self governing hospitals, GP commissioning, PFI hospitals etc etc? How odd.

 

All this expert opinion from someone who didn't even know that 200 for profit hospitals even existed in the UK or that there were was a severe nursing shortage nationwide. tbh if you don't even know the absolute basics its best not to pontificate on the harder stuff.

 

To be fair to Lord Pony - and he really doesn't warrant it - I think he's referring to the Left's rosy view of a forever-lost NHS that was once entirely in public ownership and didn't suffer from shortages (of beds, medicines, doctors, nurses, ambulances...). In fact, that NHS has never existed. The rest of his post is pony, but there you go.

 

The leaked Labour manifesto - on the details so far - appears to make no policy commitments on the NHS at all. And all in a draft manifesto that's trying to play the populist card. The only proposal I've heard so far involves banning car parking charges on hospital grounds - hardly ground-breaking, Blue Skies stuff.

 

What must almightily puzzle Corbyn and his Momentum chums is that they know that individual policies seem to be popular (nationalising railways for example - although they have absolutely no idea how to do this). Their problem is they're playing a silly game of arithmetic. Add in enough popular/populist ideas and - hey presto - the electorate swings in your direction.

 

One problem they either don't see or gloss over is that there's no coherent vision and narrative of a better society that underlies these measures, other than a peevish sense of grievance and a desire to punish the one percenters. A bigger one is that they have a leader completely lacking in the intellectual capabilities, the organisational skills and the charismatic authority to weave these ideas into a convincing political narrative.

 

What Corbyn does bring to the table is, oddly, the one big character flaw he shares with Tony Blair. Both believe in the politically narcissistic idea that if one has good intentions the outcomes will also be good. Blair was informed by a suppurating religiosity, which made him believe that his good-guy actions and outcomes in Kosovo and Sierra Leone could be writ large in Iraq. Corbyn is informed by a staggering political naiveté that amounts to: 'why can't we just all get along?' And if only his way of thinking were the guiding principle in political crises, the world would be a better place.

 

What both Blair and Corbyn fail - for all their ill-judged self-belief - to grasp is that there is something called the Law of Unintended Consequences. Or put another way, reality bites back. More able politicians - like Merkel - understand that how to negotiate reality without reducing everything to realpolitik. In the past, Labour has understood this well too (and has consequently produced much social change for the good). With Corbyn there is no hope. Nor will there be in the near future.

 

Roll on a British En Marche!

[benjii]

A manifesto pledge to use "extreme caution" when deciding whether to fire a nuke.

 

Thank goodness for that. I'm getting sick of our gung-ho attitude to firing nukes off all over the place.

[buctootim]

A manifesto pledge to use "extreme caution" when deciding whether to fire a nuke.

 

Thank goodness for that. I'm getting sick of our gung-ho attitude to firing nukes off all over the place.

 

You know, this is more than just like, missiles. This is death that’s involved because people could be killed. This is risk that’s involved, because if the missile goes off and goes in a city or goes in a civilian area — you know, the boats were hundreds of miles away — and if this missile goes off and lands in the middle of a town or a hamlet .... every decision is much harder than you’d normally make. This is involving death and life and so many things.

[benjii]

You know, this is more than just like, missiles. This is death that’s involved because people could be killed. This is risk that’s involved, because if the missile goes off and goes in a city or goes in a civilian area — you know, the boats were hundreds of miles away — and if this missile goes off and lands in the middle of a town or a hamlet .... every decision is much harder than you’d normally make. This is involving death and life and so many things.

 

If you're suggesting Corbyn should bugger off and join the Democrats then I would not disagree.

[buctootim]

If you're suggesting Corbyn should bugger off and join the Democrats then I would not disagree.

 

I was thinking more of a Donald and Jeremy dream team

[buctootim]

To be fair to Lord Pony - and he really doesn't warrant it - I think he's referring to the Left's rosy view of a forever-lost NHS that was once entirely in public ownership and didn't suffer from shortages (of beds, medicines, doctors, nurses, ambulances...). In fact, that NHS has never existed.

 

Maybe, but maybe not. He keeps coming back to this NHS stuck in the 1950s point (such as it is). I think he really believes it, or at least it gives him mental space to trot out the "slash and burn to improve the service" trope.

[Nolan]

I was thinking more of a Donald and Jeremy dream team

You look at the constant blaming of the media of everything, their over use of alt left sites, the incessant cries of "fake news" and the adulation of Russia, they do have a lot in common.

 

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[Jonnyboy]

Corporation tax income over the last few years as the rates had come down.

 

If we are to reverse the rates... Where does Corbyns extra money come from?

 

Chances are brexit will mess up those figures anyway.

[Saint_clark]

How long will a feasibility study for a port in Birmingham last?

 

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Where is that from? Just did a word search of the Labour manifesto and the only time Birmingham is mentioned is in relation to HS2?

[Nolan]

Where is that from? Just did a word search of the Labour manifesto and the only time Birmingham is mentioned is in relation to HS2?

This is the one leaked to Guido fawkes available on scribd.

 

 

 

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[Lord Duckhunter]

So Corbyn has announced today he's not a pacifist. This principled man who says what he believes is not a pacifist.

 

My opinion is that it's ok for a pacifist to run for PM, but a pacifist pretending not to be one, just to run for PM is pretty unprincipled

 

 

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[Nolan]

I think you're being unfair. He said he would have supported 2 of 45 UK troop deployments since 1945 /s

 

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[trousers]

[Lord Duckhunter]

A labour spokesman was asked about a 2014 film of Corbyn calling for NATO to disband on the BBC today . What had changed ,opinion or the facts he was asked. He answered what had changed was Corbyn "wasn't party leader in 2014". Pretty much sums this principled man up.

 

 

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[Nolan]

In his speech today it was all based around The UN, rather than Nato... Probably because the UN never dies anything due to Russian or Chinese Vetoes.

 

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[OldNick]

I still cnt get the vision out of my head of Corbyn and Abbott and their fling in the 70's..... Of course they were on a motorbike tour of Communist East Germany at the time. Just what they would love our country to be

[Saint86]

So without reading through pages of peoples different politcal idealogies... What is the consensus on here?

 

Question A - what do you think will happen?

A1. Corbyn Win?

A2. Similar to now?

A3. Tory Win?

 

Question B - Who do you want to win?

B1. Corbyn

B2. Tories

B3. Total Apathy

[Jonnyboy]

I still cnt get the vision out of my head of Corbyn and Abbott and their fling in the 70's..... Of course they were on a motorbike tour of Communist East Germany at the time. Just what they would love our country to be

 

Whatever turns you on.

[Batman]

So without reading through pages of peoples different politcal idealogies... What is the consensus on here?

 

Question A - what do you think will happen?

A1. Corbyn Win?

A2. Similar to now?

A3. Tory Win?

 

Question B - Who do you want to win?

B1. Corbyn

B2. Tories

B3. Total Apathy

 

A3

B2

 

by the biggest margin possible

[Saint86]

So without reading through pages of peoples different politcal idealogies... What is the consensus on here?

 

Question A - what do you think will happen?

A1. Corbyn Win?

A2. Similar to now?

A3. Tory Win?

 

Question B - Who do you want to win?

B1. Corbyn

B2. Tories

B3. Total Apathy

 

I'm A3 B2

[Winnersaint]

Hate to say it but A3 B3, but that's only because of the way the question has been posed effectively turning it into an election of personalities not parties. Had question B included B1 Labour not Corbyn my response would have been different.

[Saint86]

Hate to say it but A3 B3, but that's only because of the way the question has been posed effectively turning it into an election of personalities not parties. Had question B included B1 Labour not Corbyn my response would have been different.

 

I hear what you're saying, but technically Corbyn is Labour at the moment.

[shurlock]

I hear what you're saying, but technically Corbyn is Labour at the moment.

 

So why don't you reframe your lazy question then.

[solentstars]

a2 b3 plus will not vote for the first time ever no need for the election they had a mandate for the next 2 years. have switched over to avoid the usual predicble recycling of slogans from the past elections.

[aintforever]

A3 - it's obviously going to be a Tory landslide.

B1 - just for the humour value.

[Shroppie]

So without reading through pages of peoples different politcal idealogies... What is the consensus on here?

 

Question A - what do you think will happen?

A1. Corbyn Win?

A2. Similar to now?

A3. Tory Win?

 

Question B - Who do you want to win?

B1. Corbyn

B2. Tories

B3. Total Apathy

A3, and sort of B2, in that ideally for me the Tories would be the biggest party but with a reduced or no majority, stopping the more extreme of their policies.

 

Won't happen, though.

 

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[John B]

Just beats me why anybody would vote Conservative

 

Plenty of evidence they are incompetent not much if any to show they are competent

 

Perhaps someone could let me know why they think that they are competent with NHS Education Housing and Social Care in crisis 1 to 2 million on zero Hours contracts income not rising and poverty increasing.

 

I do admit if I was earning shed loads of money I would think there were great

[Nolan]

Just beats me why anybody would vote Conservative

 

Plenty of evidence they are incompetent not much if any to show they are competent

 

Perhaps someone could let me know why they think that they are competent with NHS Education Housing and Social Care in crisis 1 to 2 million on zero Hours contracts income not rising and poverty increasing.

 

I do admit if I was earning shed loads of money I would think there were great

Because their policies are more coherent and economically literate than Labour.

 

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[Batman]

Just beats me why anybody would vote Conservative

 

Plenty of evidence they are incompetent not much if any to show they are competent

 

Perhaps someone could let me know why they think that they are competent with NHS Education Housing and Social Care in crisis 1 to 2 million on zero Hours contracts income not rising and poverty increasing.

 

I do admit if I was earning shed loads of money I would think there were great

 

so many will vote Tory because the alternative's are utterly weird

[Verbal]

Just beats me why anybody would vote Conservative.

 

A clue, as ever, is in what lie is being told on the campaign buses. On the Tory bus, there's only mention of May, not of the party she leads. On the Labour bus, there's only mention of Labour, not of the party leader.

 

The Tories know their party brand is toxic to many former Labour voters, so the appeal is to vote for her rather than the Nasty Party. Labour know their leader is toxic, so the appeal is to traditional loyalties rather than to the wholly inadequate party leader.

 

The Tories know they'll win if they keep to this message because May's appeal transcends the party base. Labour know they won't win so are appealing to their traditional party base not to desert them.

 

For the Tories, the aim is to win an election. For the Corbynists, the aim is to be close to Miliband's share of the vote so that Corbyn can make the awe-inspiring claim he's not terminally toxic.

 

However you look at this - whether you're a supporter of May or are horrified by her - she's going to win big, and win with effectively one-party control over British politics: A) because she's popular, and B) because Corbyn would rather be the Tory party's historic enabler than relinquish power.

[Batman]

Emily Thornberry's attack on Fallon on meeting Asad years ago has kind of back fired already

 

shambles outfit

[Nolan]

Emily Thornberry's attack on Fallon on meeting Asad years ago has kind of back fired already

 

shambles outfit

Because of this?

 

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[shurlock]

Emily Thornberry's attack on Fallon on meeting Asad years ago has kind of back fired already

 

shambles outfit

 

Fallon was humiliated on air according to some.

[Nolan]

Fallon was humiliated on air according to some.

Oh. She did indeed. But she also made an opening for more in depth scrutiny on Corbyns nefarious links.

 

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[Jonnyboy]

Hate to say it but A3 B3, but that's only because of the way the question has been posed effectively turning it into an election of personalities not parties. Had question B included B1 Labour not Corbyn my response would have been different.

 

Another one of these morons who calls themselves a Labour voter but prefers a Tory government to a Corbyn one #makejunetheendofMay

[Nolan]

Another one of these morons who calls themselves a Labour voter but prefers a Tory government to a Corbyn one #makejunetheendofMay

Of course the way to win back former Labour voters is to insult them...

 

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[aintforever]

Oh. She did indeed. But she also made an opening for more in depth scrutiny on Corbyns nefarious links.

 

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Yeah, because Corbyn's nefarious links would never have been scrutinised before today.

[Jonnyboy]

Of course the way to win back former Labour voters is to insult them...

 

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He doesn't call himself a former labour voter, he calls himself someone who wants a labour government but has fallen for voting by personalties.

[Jonnyboy]

A collection of quotes from a staunch Tory, Peter Oborne...

 

"As a Tory, I don't share many of Corbyn's political beliefs, but I am certain that most of what is written about the Labour leader is false...

 

...Unlike Tony Blair, Corbyn has to do it the hard way. He has achieved his triumph in the face of hostility from a deeply unfair and partisan British media, much of which is openly determined to destroy him and distort his actions."

 

"Mr Corbyn is dragging Labour back in touch with its rank-and-file voters for the first time in almost a quarter of a century. As a party leader who reaches decisions not through calculation but through principle, he puts to shame the lies and spin of the New Labour era"

 

"There was an unspoken agreement between Tories and Labour that they would only work within very constrained parameters. The Cameron Conservative Party and the Blairite Labour Party both advocated near identical spending and taxation targets. They both supported the marketisation of the public sector. They both agreed the same neoliberal economic model."

 

"For two decades both main parties have shared the same verities about British foreign policy. They have regarded Britain as automatically subservient to the United States. This in turn has meant that we have interpreted the partnership with the Gulf dictatorships - such as Saudi Arabia and UAE - as central to Britain’s Middle East focus, while taking the side of the Israeli state against the Palestinians.

 

No matter which party was technically in power, British foreign policy has remained unchanged. David Cameron is indistinguishable in foreign policy terms to Tony Blair. (Indeed, the former prime minister has become one of Mr Cameron’s most valued foreign policy advisors.)

 

Jeremy Corbyn would smash this consensus...

 

...Let’s now examine Jeremy Corbyn’s own record. He opposed the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. He argued for talks with the IRA long before this became official policy. He has been ridiculed for talking to Hamas and Hezbollah. By one of the deeper ironies of modern history Tony Blair is now (as Middle East Eye recently revealed) in discussion with Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal, in which enterprise he has the backing of David Cameron.

 

Most people would agree that on the most intractable foreign policy issues of our time Corbyn has tended to be right and the British establishment has tended to be wrong. What Corbyn does or thinks today is likely to be vindicated a few years later. Hard though it is for the British establishment to stomach, Corbyn’s foreign policy ideas have generally been more balanced and far-sighted than those of his opponents...

 

...Corbyn is our only current hope of any serious challenge to a failed orthodoxy. Blair and Cameron have both adopted a foreign policy based on subservience rather than partnership with the United States [a position now taken by May], which has done grave damage to British interests."

 

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/according-british-media-class-last-week-has-been-unmitigated-disaster-labour-lead-1488108898

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4213862/amp/PETER-OBORNE-Corbyn-hero-democracy.html

 

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/corbyn-troublemaker-1532484034

............................................................................

[Verbal]

So what's your prediction, fanboy? Corbyn going to sweep into No10 with all those shy socialist votes?

[Nolan]

A collection of quotes from a staunch Tory, Peter Oborne...

............................................................................

 

Given Oborne's well publicised views on Iran, Israel, Palestine and Russia there is no surprise he is on the same page as Corbyn.

 

Its actually a good example of how alt left and alt right views coincide

 

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[Jonnyboy]

So what's your prediction, fanboy? Corbyn going to sweep into No10 with all those shy socialist votes?

 

Still waiting to hear what party will be getting your vote?

[Batman]

Another one of these morons who calls themselves a Labour voter but prefers a Tory government to a Corbyn one #makejunetheendofMay

 

I didnt realise Political parties were like football teams - being stuck with one for life. Weird!

[John B]

A clue, as ever, is in what lie is being told on the campaign buses. On the Tory bus, there's only mention of May, not of the party she leads. On the Labour bus, there's only mention of Labour, not of the party leader.

 

The Tories know their party brand is toxic to many former Labour voters, so the appeal is to vote for her rather than the Nasty Party. Labour know their leader is toxic, so the appeal is to traditional loyalties rather than to the wholly inadequate party leader.

 

The Tories know they'll win if they keep to this message because May's appeal transcends the party base. Labour know they won't win so are appealing to their traditional party base not to desert them.

 

For the Tories, the aim is to win an election. For the Corbynists, the aim is to be close to Miliband's share of the vote so that Corbyn can make the awe-inspiring claim he's not terminally toxic.

 

However you look at this - whether you're a supporter of May or are horrified by her - she's going to win big, and win with effectively one-party control over British politics: A) because she's popular, and B) because Corbyn would rather be the Tory party's historic enabler than relinquish power.

 

Very true but the Tories are really useless as the 2010s is on course to be worse decade for pay growth in over 200 years but most of the electorate are uninformed of

 

Of course having Corbyn as a leader does not help Labour despite being a more rounded an honest person than May .

 

Neo Liberalism has not helped our country really but it has increased in equality significantly with the top 2 or 3 percent sitting very prettily

[Jonnyboy]

I didnt realise Political parties were like football teams - being stuck with one for life. Weird!

 

No but in that analogy it's like still being a Saints supporter but buying a season ticket for Pompey because Puel is in charge. At least go and watch Eastleigh instead or something.

[Nolan]

Very true but the Tories are really useless as the 2010s is on course to be worse decade for pay growth in over 200 years but most of the electorate are uninformed of

 

Of course having Corbyn as a leader does not help Labour despite being a more rounded an honest person than May .

 

Neo Liberalism has not helped our country really but it has increased in equality significantly with the top 2 or 3 percent sitting very prettily

Really doesn't matter that it's the worst decade for pay growth, as inflation has been so low.

 

Let's pluck a decade out if the air.... The 1970s when inflation hit 25%+... Rather have today's inflation and wages growth than that.

 

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