Lord Duckhunter Posted 8 May, 2017 Share Posted 8 May, 2017 Agree, an interesting story. A better comparison might be the NHS with the bits of the US health system that are public '. No a better comparison would be France, Spain or Germany. Why is it always USA. There are far better health systems than American & far better systems than a 1950's throwback model Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 8 May, 2017 Share Posted 8 May, 2017 No a better comparison would be France, Spain or Germany. Why is it always USA. There are far better health systems than American & far better systems than a 1950's throwback model Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10583606.The_problem_with_our_NHS/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 8 May, 2017 Share Posted 8 May, 2017 (edited) No a better comparison would be France, Spain or Germany. Why is it always USA. There are far better health systems than American & far better systems than a 1950's throwback model The US is held up as an example because it is the epitome of a private system - expensive and not very good. The US has health outcomes equivalent to middle income countries like Costa Rica and Chile. Its the kind of service we would actually get with privatised healthcare, not what the Mail tells you we would. France and Germany are excellent services, probably among the best. They are also universal socialised systems. In fact all the best healthcare services are. What makes them better than the NHS is mainly that they put more cash in. I dont really mind what the Gov does. Either stump up the extra cash and get a better service, or have some kind of informed debate about healthcare rationing. What I despise is this dishonest and immature argument we only seem to have in this country which is that the NHS is crap and badly run and if we sorted out the workshy incompetents everyone could get the best healthcare in the world for the price Mexico pays. Flavour of the month moan is that its the systems fault - it dates from the 1950s and not fit for purpose. Really? what have the endless reforms for the past three decades been about then? How come France's system which dates from 1945 is the best in the world? https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/bulletins/ukhealthaccounts/2015#international-comparisons-of-healthcare-expenditure https://www.jobs4medical.co.uk/jobs/5825548/sho-general-surgery-isle-of-wight-locum-3-months.asp?utm_source=Indeed&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=Indeed Edited 10 May, 2017 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 8 May, 2017 Share Posted 8 May, 2017 Agree, an interesting story. A better comparison might be the NHS with the bits of the US health system that are public. I spent a couple of days in the ER in LA County Hospital a few years ago. Some of the people I saw in the waiting room on day one were still there on day two. The quality of care itself was top class - the senior trauma surgeon there is an acknowledged world leading researcher in treating multiple and extreme injuries. But the sheer sense of despair among uninsured people seeking help was overwhelming. And all in a hospital waiting room which included a feature you won't find in your typical A&E - a set of cells for treating a steady stream prisoners injured in the local jail. A&E in NHS by comparison is quick, efficient, and friendly, even when it's dealing with the Saturday night intake. But all this raises a problem politically. Every election, the arguments about the NHS are wound up to fever pitch. It is supposedly crumbling, duplicitous (when pursuing closures) and increasingly privatised (Labour), or it is in need of endless amounts of reform, making doctors more 'responsive' to their customers (Tories). All of which corrodes morale in a service that depends more than anything on the idea that medical care is a public good and that treating patients is a calling. Both sides are wrong. Labour is wrong, because the NHS has always, from its birth, been a compromise, allowing private care to operate within hospitals (without it, the NHS would never have got off the ground, because of a long stand-off between the '45 Labour government and the BMA). And the Tories are wrong, because endless managerialist reforms have already damaged the very thing the NHS exists to do. So the irony is that the NHS is both a sacred cow and a political football. And the consequence is that we can't have a reasoned, informed, reflective national discussion about what we want the NHS to be. We're trapped between the false nostalgia of the Labour party and the managerialist obsessions of the Tories Yet that discussion urgently needs to take place - without the tribal rancour of the main political parties vying to the ones with whom the NHS is supposedly - and really not - 'safe'. Top post. Absolutely spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 8 May, 2017 Share Posted 8 May, 2017 France and Germany are excellent services, probably among the best. They are also universal socialised systems. In fact all the best healthcare services are. What makes them better than the NHS is mainly that they put more cash in, not the system. It's the system in France, not just the money. You pay to see a Doctor, imagine the fit you lefties would have if that was purposed here. There are profit making organisations involved , again you leftie dinosaurs don't want that, people can top up their cover by buying from private insurers, god forbid that being allowed in "our NHS". Unless it's changed markably since I used it, it's nothing like the "envy of the world" 1950's service we have. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 8 May, 2017 Share Posted 8 May, 2017 (edited) It's the system in France, not just the money. You pay to see a Doctor, imagine the fit you lefties would have if that was purposed here. There are profit making organisations involved , again you leftie dinosaurs don't want that, people can top up their cover by buying from private insurers, god forbid that being allowed in "our NHS". Unless it's changed markably since I used it, it's nothing like the "envy of the world" 1950's service we have. 1. Yes the French pay (a modest fee) to visit a GP or outpatients appointment, but they are reimbursed by the government 2. There are for-profit hospital groups in the UK already. Never heard of BMI, Spire or Circle? 3. French top up insurance is mainly for things the government dont reimburse - just as the UK. You can pay top up insurance here for dental plans, or jumping waiting lists. Edited 8 May, 2017 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 9 May, 2017 Share Posted 9 May, 2017 To try and claim the French system is similar to the NHS is nonsense. It's clearly nearer than it is to the American system I'll grant you that. But major elements of it are unacceptable to the idiots on the left in this country. If the Tories proposed the exact same service & guaranteed the exact same funding, leftie mugs would go nuts. They'd go the full monty, marches, protests the lot. God knows what luvvies like Church, Linekar & Lilly Allen would do, emigrate probably (hopefully), perhaps to that caring ,compassionate Tory free country France . Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 9 May, 2017 Share Posted 9 May, 2017 It's the system in France, not just the money. You pay to see a Doctor, imagine the fit you lefties would have if that was purposed here. There are profit making organisations involved , again you leftie dinosaurs don't want that, people can top up their cover by buying from private insurers, god forbid that being allowed in "our NHS". Unless it's changed markably since I used it, it's nothing like the "envy of the world" 1950's service we have. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk This is correct and the same in Belgium (where I lived for years). The biggest problem is that no political leader is prepared to ditch the "free at the point of use' soundbite and IMO this is actually holding us back from increased (and fair) funding ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 9 May, 2017 Share Posted 9 May, 2017 (edited) This is correct and the same in Belgium (where I lived for years). The biggest problem is that no political leader is prepared to ditch the "free at the point of use' soundbite and IMO this is actually holding us back from increased (and fair) funding ! Free at the point of delivery makes more sense than it sounds. Billing people is an expensive and time consuming business. For small amounts it is often more trouble and expense than its worth. The reason people treat the NHS as sacrosanct is because previous reforms have been so doctrinaire, ideology driven rather than efficiency. Sure the NHS can learn tweaks from elsewhere but let's not pretend it's fundamentally broken just so we can impose another ill informed review on it. It's just underfunded or overstretched, depending on your view. Edited 10 May, 2017 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 May, 2017 Author Share Posted 9 May, 2017 One problem with providing a "free" service is that human nature kicks in and it gets abused. (e.g. people not turning up for appointments). A while back, I seem to recall reading about a trial that was run in a country (can't remember where... Australia maybe? Not sure) whereby they issued a 'dummy' invoice to everyone that used any national healthcare service and the result was that there was a significant decline in the amount of people misusing/abusing the service when they knew how much each consultation or procedure cost. I still maintain its not just about the absolute level of funding, it's more about how smart you are with the funds in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 9 May, 2017 Share Posted 9 May, 2017 It's true people tend not to value free things as much. The trick is how to make sure people turn up for appointments without introducing a new level of admin which wipes out any savings. The NHS is, of course not perfect. However the health outcomes of Britain measured by indicators such as neo-natal mortality, life expectancy etc are good. When compared with the amount we spend the pound for benefit ratio is extremely good. That's not to say it can't be further improved but the idea that we can get a much better service just by changing the system and without putting in more money is an illusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 May, 2017 Author Share Posted 9 May, 2017 It's true people tend not to value free things as much. The trick is how to make sure people turn up for appointments without introducing a new level of admin which wipes out any savings. The NHS is, of course not perfect. However the health outcomes of Britain measured by indicators such as neo-natal mortality, life expectancy etc are good. When compared with the amount we spend the pound for benefit ratio is extremely good. That's not to say it can't be further improved but the idea that we can get a much better service just by changing the system and without putting in more money is an illusion. Agree, but I would say it's better to pour additional money into a system that's been fixed first. Dodgy analogy alert... If you've got a leaky bucket, it's better to mend the bucket before pouring more water into it. Or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 9 May, 2017 Share Posted 9 May, 2017 (edited) Agree, but I would say it's better to pour money into a system that's been fixed first. Dodgy analogy alert... If you've got a leaky bucket, it's better to mend the bucket before pouring more water into it. Or something... Its a pity you don't let facts interfere with the opinions you want to hold. Why don't you post up some evidence to justify your opinions? Where are the healthcare systems which achieve more with less? The NHS is efficient and effective in terms of the gains it gets for every pound spent. Its extremely good by all international comparators and half the cost of its private UK competitors which dont carry the overheads of such inconveniences like crash teams, ambulances and intensive care to bale them out when their operations go wrong - they rely on the NHS to do that for them. But you don't want to do the reading and aren't going to swayed away from the view its all broken and crap and your precious tax which you uniquely deserve more than scroungers is being wasted. Zero sum game Edited 9 May, 2017 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 May, 2017 Author Share Posted 9 May, 2017 (edited) Its a pity you don't let facts interfere with the opinions you want to hold. Why don't you post up some evidence to justify your opinions? Where are the healthcare systems which achieve more with less? The NHS is efficient and effective in terms of the gains it gets for every pound spent. Its extremely good by all international comparators and half the cost of its private UK competitors which dont carry the overheads of such inconveniences like crash teams, ambulances and intensive care to bale them out when their operations go wrong - they rely on the NHS to do that for them. But you don't want to do the reading and aren't going to swayed away from the view its all broken and crap and your precious tax which you uniquely deserve more than scroungers is being wasted. Zero sum game I'm not sure where you've got the impression from that I think it's "all broken and crap". I think it's a very good service despite the pressures. I'm simply reflecting the view of people who I know that work in the NHS who constantly tell me that it could be even better if the inefficiencies were eliminated. Holding the view that it could be improved through efficiency drives and that more cash could be put into the system aren't mutually exclusive. So, just to clarify my view of the NHS: 1) it is a wonderful service despite the pressures it faces 2) it could do with being more efficient (3) it could do with more investment (and that investment will be better spent if (2) is also addressed) Edited 9 May, 2017 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 9 May, 2017 Share Posted 9 May, 2017 (edited) Here's an inefficiency for you and is an absolute fact. My friends wife is a midwife . They have 2 contracts in Poole an NHS one ( x amount of hours per week) or a bank one, where you tell them how many hours you want to work and when you're available each week. Basically a zero hours one, god forbid. Most on bank are perfectly happy to do so and don't want to bee on set hours( unless Steptoe bans them). When they don't have enough midwives to cover the shifts , they do one of two things, get an agency in or give OT to the NHS midwives. Because agency costs are so high they've started offering OT at double time when they still can't fill the gaps, as it's cheaper. The upshot of this is that none of the midwives now volunteer for OT because they know if they wait that it'll be offered at double time. My mates mrs works 3 shifts a week but the past 2 months has been doing 2 shifts extra at double time. The bank midwives are now not volunteering for as many shifts, causing more gaps, but when the double time comes out, they're suddenly available.Complete & utter mismanagement that is costing the tax payer a fortune. There is no end in sight because they won't take on any more NHS contracts & the staff are fully aware that if they hold out they'll get paid double time. I can't think of one private company I've worked for that would let staff costs get out of hand like this. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited 9 May, 2017 by Lord Duckhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 9 May, 2017 Share Posted 9 May, 2017 Here's an inefficiency for you and is an absolute fact. My friends wife is a midwife . They have 2 contracts in Poole an NHS one ( x amount of hours per week) or a bank one, where you tell them how many hours you want to work and when you're available each week. Basically a zero hours one, god forbid. Most on bank are perfectly happy to do so and don't want to bee on set hours( unless Steptoe bans them). When they don't have enough midwives to cover the shifts , they do one of two things, get an agency in or give OT to the NHS midwives. Because agency costs are so high they've started offering OT at double time when they still can't fill the gaps, as it's cheaper. The upshot of this is that none of the midwives now volunteer for OT because they know if they wait that it'll be offered at double time. My mates mrs works 3 shifts a week but the past 2 months has been doing 2 shifts extra at double time. The bank midwives are now not volunteering for as many shifts, causing more gaps, but when the double time comes out, they're suddenly available.Complete & utter mismanagement that is costing the tax payer a fortune. There is no end in sight because they won't take on any more NHS contracts & the staff are fully aware that if they hold out they'll get paid double time. I can't think of one private company I've worked for that would let staff costs get out of hand like this. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk A fact that has been in the media a lot. The problem is also being addressed and tackled. https://improvement.nhs.uk/news-alerts/agency-caps-one-year-600m-saved-nhs-spending-still-too-high/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 9 May, 2017 Share Posted 9 May, 2017 A fact that has been in the media a lot. The problem is also being addressed and tackled. https://improvement.nhs.uk/news-alerts/agency-caps-one-year-600m-saved-nhs-spending-still-too-high/ part of the reason why Junior Doctors have been *****ing. They new deal to them impacted their opportunities on getting on the Agency gig as much as they did and take incredible hourly rates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 9 May, 2017 Share Posted 9 May, 2017 (edited) Here's an inefficiency for you and is an absolute fact. My friends wife is a midwife . They have 2 contracts in Poole an NHS one ( x amount of hours per week) or a bank one, where you tell them how many hours you want to work and when you're available each week. Basically a zero hours one, god forbid. Most on bank are perfectly happy to do so and don't want to bee on set hours( unless Steptoe bans them). When they don't have enough midwives to cover the shifts , they do one of two things, get an agency in or give OT to the NHS midwives. Because agency costs are so high they've started offering OT at double time when they still can't fill the gaps, as it's cheaper. The upshot of this is that none of the midwives now volunteer for OT because they know if they wait that it'll be offered at double time. My mates mrs works 3 shifts a week but the past 2 months has been doing 2 shifts extra at double time. The bank midwives are now not volunteering for as many shifts, causing more gaps, but when the double time comes out, they're suddenly available.Complete & utter mismanagement that is costing the tax payer a fortune. There is no end in sight because they won't take on any more NHS contracts & the staff are fully aware that if they hold out they'll get paid double time. I can't think of one private company I've worked for that would let staff costs get out of hand like this. I'm sure its true. What should the management be doing differently? They cant recruit permanent staff to reduce the reliance on overtime and agencies because the Tories cut the number of training places, froze wages and Brexit has caused an exodus of EU nursing staff. What is it exactly you think management should be doing differently? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/19/96-per-cent-hospitals-have-nurse-shortages-official-figures/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38640068 Edited 9 May, 2017 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 9 May, 2017 Share Posted 9 May, 2017 I'm sure its true. What should the management be doing differently? They cant recruit permanent staff to reduce the reliance on overtime and agencies because the Tories cut the number of training places, froze wages and Brexit has caused an exodus of EU nursing staff. What is it exactly you think management should be doing differently? also the explosion of NHS staff from places such as the Philippines when Blair was ruling the roost. Looked good on paper on how brilliantly the NHS was staffed...was only a sticking plaster at the time and only ever going to push the problem down the line. But then, that was a labour fault and they are the saviours of the great NHS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 9 May, 2017 Share Posted 9 May, 2017 also the explosion of NHS staff from places such as the Philippines when Blair was ruling the roost. Looked good on paper on how brilliantly the NHS was staffed...was only a sticking plaster at the time and only ever going to push the problem down the line. But then, that was a labour fault and they are the saviours of the great NHS Either way its the result of political interference - not an intrinsic fault of the NHS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 9 May, 2017 Share Posted 9 May, 2017 To try and claim the French system is similar to the NHS is nonsense. It's clearly nearer than it is to the American system I'll grant you that. But major elements of it are unacceptable to the idiots on the left in this country. If the Tories proposed the exact same service & guaranteed the exact same funding, leftie mugs would go nuts. They'd go the full monty, marches, protests the lot. God knows what luvvies like Church, Linekar & Lilly Allen would do, emigrate probably (hopefully), perhaps to that caring ,compassionate Tory free country France . Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Don't the French pay more in tax? Raise taxes here see how the right whingers react to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 Don't the French pay more in tax? Raise taxes here see how the right whingers react to that. UK tax 20% + NI 12% = 32% French tax = 30% Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 UK tax 20% + NI 12% = 32% French tax = 30% Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Do the French get tax allowances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 Do the French get tax allowances? The bits that I looked at, they have similar bandings to us. Albeit they have a 14% rate for those earning under €26,000 but that starts at €9,700. So roughly evens out with our 0 rate up to 11k. Looks like they have tax allowances rather than child benefit. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 UK tax 20% + NI 12% = 32% French tax = 30% Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk I don't think I've ever seen a country's tax profile presented like this. My dog could make a better stab at things. Did you a module at university on this as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 (edited) [emoji38] I don't think I've ever seen a country's tax profile presented like this. My dog could make a better stab at things. Did you a module at university on this as well? Well I do have to work too. So it was the shortest of analysis that turns out to be wrong m To make it easier for you UK tax freedom day was 3rd of June 2016 FRANCE tax freedom was 29th of July 2016 So... In the grand scheme if things. France have no chance of getting any British bankers over there. Edited 10 May, 2017 by Nolan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 (edited) Well I do have to work too. So it was the shortest of analysis that turns out to be wrong m To make it easier for you UK tax freedom day was 3rd of June 2016 FRANCE tax freedom was 29th of July 2016 So... In the grand scheme if things. France have no chance of getting any British bankers over there. Still no better. Trying looking at tax-to-GDP ratio and the structure of tax receipts which is what people usually do to get some basic sense of countries respective tax burdens. Edited 10 May, 2017 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 If you know how many days there are in a year. You can work out a percentage from the dates I've given you. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 If you know how many days there are in a year. You can work out a percentage from the dates I've given you. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Try again. You're still making no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 Do you know what tax freedom day is? Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 Do you know what tax freedom day is? Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk You lost me with your first unintelligible post (your response to Jonny). Simple point is the French pay more in tax, as measured by the country's tax-to-GDP ratio. That's predominantly accounted for by much higher social security contributions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 Which is why their tax freedom day is nearly 50 days after ours. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 Which is why their tax freedom day is nearly 50 days after ours. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Fine, if you're conceding your first post was complete and utter tosh. Think you have some work to do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 Fine, if you're conceding your first post was complete and utter tosh. Think you have some work to do... I said I had work to do in the same sentence I conceded... Lol Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 (edited) I said I had work to do in the same sentence I conceded... Lol Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk You're way off if you think low taxes make people happy. Whats far more important is good quality schools, healthcare, public space, transport etc. That's why, in part, low tax Americans are so miserable and Danes are the happiest people on the planet. Edited 10 May, 2017 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 Here's an inefficiency for you and is an absolute fact. My friends wife is a midwife . They have 2 contracts in Poole an NHS one ( x amount of hours per week) or a bank one, where you tell them how many hours you want to work and when you're available each week. Basically a zero hours one, god forbid. Most on bank are perfectly happy to do so and don't want to bee on set hours( unless Steptoe bans them). When they don't have enough midwives to cover the shifts , they do one of two things, get an agency in or give OT to the NHS midwives. Because agency costs are so high they've started offering OT at double time when they still can't fill the gaps, as it's cheaper. The upshot of this is that none of the midwives now volunteer for OT because they know if they wait that it'll be offered at double time. My mates mrs works 3 shifts a week but the past 2 months has been doing 2 shifts extra at double time. The bank midwives are now not volunteering for as many shifts, causing more gaps, but when the double time comes out, they're suddenly available.Complete & utter mismanagement that is costing the tax payer a fortune. There is no end in sight because they won't take on any more NHS contracts & the staff are fully aware that if they hold out they'll get paid double time. I can't think of one private company I've worked for that would let staff costs get out of hand like this. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Here's another one : I live on the IoW (half an hour from St Mary's hospital) and needed a consultation with a general surgeon re. a hernia ! I got a call from the South Hants hospital in Southampton saying that they had arranged the appointment there and were sending return Redjet tickets and taxi vouchers to and from the Town Quay at the other end ! The taxi driver told me that this happens all the time and was actually quite a good earner for him ! Apart from the fact that it was a pain for me to schlepp all the way over there for a 5 minute appointment it seems pretty ludicrous that the general surgeon could not have arranged to visit IoW on a set day to see all patients in one go or even (God forbid) there was actually one based there ! Ps. I was p*ssed off that I had to pay for my own parking in Cowes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 So basically the IOW has ****ed up the NHS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 (edited) UK tax 20% + NI 12% = 32% French tax = 30% Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk You obviously don't know what you're talking about; The French taxation system is pretty complex. To start with there are a lot of social charges which are imputed to gross pay. Then income tax is calcuated separately on the remainder according to circumstances and a few other things. For instance if you live in say Melun but you work in Paris you can normally deduct all your to and fro work costs plus your lunch from the amount you pay tax on. A lot of people don't pay income tax at all, over 50% of the households apparently. Then you get into the realms of CSG and RDS, these are levied on all income except for some government handouts. Edited 10 May, 2017 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint1977 Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 Agree, an interesting story. A better comparison might be the NHS with the bits of the US health system that are public. I spent a couple of days in the ER in LA County Hospital a few years ago. Some of the people I saw in the waiting room on day one were still there on day two. The quality of care itself was top class - the senior trauma surgeon there is an acknowledged world leading researcher in treating multiple and extreme injuries. But the sheer sense of despair among uninsured people seeking help was overwhelming. And all in a hospital waiting room which included a feature you won't find in your typical A&E - a set of cells for treating a steady stream prisoners injured in the local jail. A&E in NHS by comparison is quick, efficient, and friendly, even when it's dealing with the Saturday night intake. But all this raises a problem politically. Every election, the arguments about the NHS are wound up to fever pitch. It is supposedly crumbling, duplicitous (when pursuing closures) and increasingly privatised (Labour), or it is in need of endless amounts of reform, making doctors more 'responsive' to their customers (Tories). All of which corrodes morale in a service that depends more than anything on the idea that medical care is a public good and that treating patients is a calling. Both sides are wrong. Labour is wrong, because the NHS has always, from its birth, been a compromise, allowing private care to operate within hospitals (without it, the NHS would never have got off the ground, because of a long stand-off between the '45 Labour government and the BMA). And the Tories are wrong, because endless managerialist reforms have already damaged the very thing the NHS exists to do. So the irony is that the NHS is both a sacred cow and a political football. And the consequence is that we can't have a reasoned, informed, reflective national discussion about what we want the NHS to be. We're trapped between the false nostalgia of the Labour party and the managerialist obsessions of the Tories Yet that discussion urgently needs to take place - without the tribal rancour of the main political parties vying to the ones with whom the NHS is supposedly - and really not - 'safe'. Very good post Verbal and the political noise on both left and right make these arguments hard to hear but even more essential. Thank you to Buctootim for his reply as well. I dread to think of the chaos Trump has just wrought - although the Senate will hopefully show more common sense - on the health insurance system in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 (edited) Here's another one : I live on the IoW (half an hour from St Mary's hospital) and needed a consultation with a general surgeon re. a hernia ! I got a call from the South Hants hospital in Southampton saying that they had arranged the appointment there and were sending return Redjet tickets and taxi vouchers to and from the Town Quay at the other end ! The taxi driver told me that this happens all the time and was actually quite a good earner for him ! Apart from the fact that it was a pain for me to schlepp all the way over there for a 5 minute appointment it seems pretty ludicrous that the general surgeon could not have arranged to visit IoW on a set day to see all patients in one go or even (God forbid) there was actually one based there ! Ps. I was p*ssed off that I had to pay for my own parking in Cowes http://iwradio.co.uk/2017/04/06/isle-wight-nhs-trust-staff-pay-tribute-former-colleague/ https://www.jobs4medical.co.uk/jobs/5825548/sho-general-surgery-isle-of-wight-locum-3-months.asp?utm_source=Indeed&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=Indeed Edited 10 May, 2017 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 You obviously don't know what you're talking about; The French taxation system is pretty complex. To start with there are a lot of social charges which are imputed to gross pay. Then income tax is calcuated separately according to circumstances and a few other things. For instance if you live in say Melun but you work in Paris you can normally deduct all your to and fro work costs plus your lunch from the amount you pay tax on. A lot of people don't pay income tax at all, over 50% of the households apparently. Then you get into the realms of CSG and RDS, these are levied on all income except for some government handouts. You obviously didn't read to the end of the thread before commenting. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightysaints Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 Just don't get ill on the IOW. St Marys hospital has a terrible record and that's coming from a senior Nurse I know. My partner is a Pharmacist and the waste she has to deal with is huge when it comes to NHS drugs. The NHS should charge everyone for a prescription then see what happens. She even sees scripts for nit combs and sun cream. Why the hell are we paying for these. The whole system is abused, its gets enough money but is mismanaged and there are no repercussions for senior managers as its all a closed shop. I bet we are paying various rates for basic hospital commodities like rubber gloves. Why cant any government sort this out, its not difficult to have a central framework procurement contract, that way you will get better prices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 (edited) You're way off if you think low taxes make people happy. Whats far more important is good quality schools, healthcare, public space, transport etc. That's why, in part, low tax Americans are so miserable and Danes are the happiest people on the planet. I think the Greece Spain Portugal and Italy one should be defined as declared earnings.lol It is also interesting to see around about 8 of those countires in the lower part of tax rates get massive funds from the EU Edited 10 May, 2017 by OldNick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 The point being if we wanted to spend as much as the French on the NHS we would have to raise taxes. Fine by me but Katie Hopkins and Farage might commit suicide on live TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnersaint Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 The point being if we wanted to spend as much as the French on the NHS we would have to raise taxes. Fine by me but Katie Hopkins and Farage might commit suicide on live TV. Would be a good watch Though. Pay good money to to see those fresh air thieves expire! Especially the frog faced Brexit k-u-n-t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 The point being if we wanted to spend as much as the French on the NHS we would have to raise taxes. Fine by me but Katie Hopkins and Farage might commit suicide on live TV. Or cut the foreign aid budget. Fine by me but Eddie Izzard, Little Owen Jones & Polly Toynbee might commit suicide on live TV. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 (edited) Or cut the foreign aid budget. Fine by me but Eddie Izzard, Little Owen Jones & Polly Toynbee might commit suicide on live TV. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk You mean all 0.7% of GDP which has been increasingly and explicitly tied to the UK's overseas military and economic interests. Pure charity and do-goodery it ain't. (see the government's 2015 Aid Strategy: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/478834/ODA_strategy_final_web_0905.pdf) Edited 10 May, 2017 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 Or cut the foreign aid budget. Fine by me but Eddie Izzard, Little Owen Jones & Polly Toynbee might commit suicide on live TV. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk You were the one saying we should makes ours more the like the French system. So you support raising taxes like the French? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 10 May, 2017 Share Posted 10 May, 2017 No a better comparison would be France, Spain or Germany. Why is it always USA. There are far better health systems than American & far better systems than a 1950's throwback model Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk This is what I said, so I don't really see how that can be twisted into a call for French levels of tax, I haven't even called for a French health system, merely pointed out that it's better than the "envy of the world " one we have. I realise that you dinosaurs are wedded to the 1950's so won't open your eyes to the absolute disaster area ours is. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 11 May, 2017 Share Posted 11 May, 2017 What's the highest caliber of footballer that a country with a 1.20 wage ratio would entice? Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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