Puel vs Koeman

[Maggie May]

Guys, genuine question.

 

Where do you think we'd be if Ronald Koeman stuck around for another season?

 

Everton have just broken into the top 5 - do you think we would have replicated that with the players at our disposal/new arrivals?

 

Puel's done well (still not a huge fan) to get us ninth and to a cup final but it has arguably been a season of consolidation and disappointment in the Europa League.

 

Do you think we will improve under our Claude next season with a reduced fixture list?

 

Thoughts?

 

PS: Happy chocolate day

[SKD]

Guys, genuine question.

 

Where do you think we'd be if Ronald Koeman stuck around for another season?

 

Everton have just broken into the top 5 - do you think we would have replicated that with the players at our disposal/new arrivals?

 

Puel's done well (still not a huge fan) to get us ninth and to a cup final but it has arguably been a season of consolidation and disappointment in the Europa League.

 

Do you think we will improve under our Claude next season with a reduced fixture list?

 

Thoughts?

 

PS: Happy chocolate day

 

If Everton had Puel and we still had Koeman I suspect we'd have been in top 6/7 and they'd be 9t, certainly wouldn't be above us. I don't think we'd have progressed much further in Europe however (perhaps 1 more round).

 

I think next season we will finish roughly the same as this year, so no, no improvement.

[Wimborne_saint]

I don't think we would have finished above 7th this season even if Koeman was still here. Although were were brilliant at times last year, the big teams around us all had poor seasons which is partly why we did so well.

 

I'm a big fan of Puel - he's certainly not had it easy with a stacked fixture list and a number of injuries to key players. I think we will improve next season, as long as the transfer window goes to plan and we avoid another exodus..

[trousers]

Given he had no desire to extend his contract, this would have been Koeman's last season with us. We'll never know whether he would have gone out with a bang or with a whimper, ergo I've no idea where we would have finished in comparison to Puel.

[Batman]

Koeman is clearly the better manager

 

Pochettino is better than both of them

 

Puel is on par with Adkins at best IMO as far as English football is concerned

[danjosaint]

Given he had no desire to extend his contract, this would have been Koeman's last season with us. We'll never know whether he would have gone out with a bang or with a whimper, ergo I've no idea where we would have finished in comparison to Puel.

 

He would of gone all out due to forthcoming application for Barca job, no way he would have ambled through season to jeopardize that. I preferred koeman, but laugh at the double standards of 'Barclay must sign new deal or be sold with 1yr remaining exactly the same what his situation was.

[S-Clarke]

Impossible to say really, but most of our goals were sold in the summer (Pelle/Mane), so it's no surprise what so ever to see us struggling to score goals. Not sure anyone else would have done amazingly better.

[Saint-Fred]

He would of gone all out due to forthcoming application for Barca job, no way he would have ambled through season to jeopardize that. I preferred koeman, but laugh at the double standards of 'Barclay must sign new deal or be sold with 1yr remaining exactly the same what his situation was.

 

The two situations aren't exactly the same. RK has previously seen out contracts (if he wasn't sacked first) then moved on. Compensation for managers is small beer in the overall scheme.

In the same way we don't let players go into their last year Everton are just protecting a possibly 30 million investment.

 

For me with RK we may not have got to a cup final but we would be as a minimum be the best of the rest, including Everton so top 6/7.

 

I think under Claude it will always be more of the same..play the same way, get beat by the big boys, do OK against the others and finish around 8th to 14th.

About right for a club our size I suppose.

[Roger]

What I don't like is the way we sat so deep from the off yesterday. Romeo and vvd out so we weren't going to keep a clean sheet. In cup final and against pool in cup at home we had a goand really competed. Think puel shows big teams far too much respect. City defence have been dodgy and we never got at them. If we were sitting deep then surely clasie should have played over hoojberg. Koeman and poch with better players just had a go at top teams and we beat all of them last season.

[Forester]

I don't think we would have finished above 7th this season even if Koeman was still here. Although were were brilliant at times last year, the big teams around us all had poor seasons which is partly why we did so well.

 

I'm a big fan of Puel - he's certainly not had it easy with a stacked fixture list and a number of injuries to key players. I think we will improve next season, as long as the transfer window goes to plan and we avoid another exodus..

Spot on. The three teams who finished below us last season that have improved are Chelsea, Liverpool and Everton. None of them have contended with the additional fixtures in Europe, and one of them have cited their best player this year as someone who got goals for us last season. The only team we should feel fed up about finishing below would be West Brom, and I haven't given up hope of us finishing alive them. And where was the cup final delivered by either Koeman or Poch?

[Saint-Fred]

Spot on. The three teams who finished below us last season that have improved are Chelsea, Liverpool and Everton. None of them have contended with the additional fixtures in Europe, and one of them have cited their best player this year as someone who got goals for us last season. The only team we should feel fed up about finishing below would be West Brom, and I haven't given up hope of us finishing alive them. And where was the cup final delivered by either Koeman or Poch?

 

so because we got to a cup final- Puel is better than RK or Poch?

 

How many league points are we in front or behind of Everton, chelsea, west Brom, Man U, Liverpool , Spurs or even Bournemouth..compared to last season? That will tell you the progress we have made.

[Lighthouse]

Puel hasn't had a goal scorer for the large majority of the season, whereas Koeman has the league's top striker. A bit harsh to try and compare really but I don't think Koeman would have done a lot better with this squad.

[Saint-Fred]

Puel hasn't had a goal scorer for the large majority of the season, whereas Koeman has the league's top striker. A bit harsh to try and compare really but I don't think Koeman would have done a lot better with this squad.

 

The person in charge of Everton last year had the same striker but didn't finish as high up!

Could be with Puel in charge of Everton Lukaku would have only scored a few goals like Long has...(who was only 5 goals behind Lukaku last season! )

[Lord Duckhunter]

If Everton had Long up front the majority of the season & us lukaku we'd be above them.

 

 

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[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

Koeman is clearly the better manager

 

Pochettino is better than both of them

 

Puel is on par with Adkins at best IMO as far as English football is concerned

 

This!

[Saint-Fred]

If Everton had Long up front the majority of the season & us lukaku we'd be above them.

 

 

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Or Long would have scored 15 goals and Lukaku would have been sold in January.

[Micky]

Clearly Puel is the better manager, he has managed to get us to a cup final, comfortable in mid table, despite losing our best player, having no strike force for the majority of the season, having his established captain sold from under his feet, and having to rely on some of the kids for the majority of the season. All of that whilst having to negotiate lots more games as well. All in all a remarkable achievement from Claude Puel.

 

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[Lord Duckhunter]

Clearly Puel is the better manager, he has managed to get us to a cup final, comfortable in mid table, despite losing our best player, having no strike force for the majority of the season, having his established captain sold from under his feet, and having to rely on some of the kids for the majority of the season. All of that whilst having to negotiate lots more games as well. All in all a remarkable achievement from Claude Puel.

 

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He's been handed a hospital pass from the board. A top ten finish & a cup final without VvD for half a season, Mane, Pelle, Fonte & big vic is every bit as good as 6th & humiliation in the very same cup was with them. Of course we've got ****ing idiot supporters who think it's like Football Manager, typified by the morons who booed protecting the striker from further injury, and seem to think we've a god given right to get better & better each season. From the cards he's been dealt he's played a pretty decent hand

 

 

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[Saint-Fred]

He's been handed a hospital pass from the board. A top ten finish & a cup final without VvD for half a season, Mane, Pelle, Fonte & big vic is every bit as good as 6th & humiliation in the very same cup was with them. Of course we've got ****ing idiot supporters who think it's like Football Manager, typified by the morons who booed protecting the striker from further injury, and seem to think we've a god given right to get better & better each season. From the cards he's been dealt he's played a pretty decent hand

 

 

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We have supporters who also have a go at players like Forster too....I bet they support the manager and feel it's ok to have a pop at our own players...

I think Puel is alright..that's it..run of the mill, do an ok job, not make a fuss when we sell players, I can't see him building a team where players want to stay as we are heading on an upward journey (in fact a few appear like they may want to leave) and nothing I have seen so far indicates that he is the world class manager the happy clappers on here suggest he is?

[Heisenberg]

Koeman has engineered a 33 point swing from last season... Given the respective squads that's outrageous.

 

Koeman is the far better manager - absolutely no contest.

[Saint-Fred]

Koeman has engineered a 33 point swing from last season... Given the respective squads that's outrageous.

 

Koeman is the far better manager - absolutely no contest.

 

It's funny how people can't see that...Keoman has had three years in the league and not finished outside the top 7. All by accident apparently!

[Heisenberg]

It's funny how people can't see that...Keoman has had three years in the league and not finished outside the top 7. All by accident apparently!

 

We should have done way more to keep him. I like lucky managers

[OldNick]

Koeman has engineered a 33 point swing from last season... Given the respective squads that's outrageous.

 

Koeman is the far better manager - absolutely no contest.

if you had taken 25 plus goals away from the Everton team like was done to us then they would have struggled. He also didn't have to contend with European football. He has also been able to add to the original squad as well as not selling any prime players.

[Heisenberg]

if you had taken 25 plus goals away from the Everton team like was done to us then they would have struggled. He also didn't have to contend with European football. He has also been able to add to the original squad as well as not selling any prime players.

 

Our squad is still better than Evertons.

 

When Koeman arrived we lost Shaw, Lallana, Lovren, Lambert, Chambers - he didn't make excuses and we didn't need to make them for him.

 

Puel has divided the fan base. He's marmite

[Forester]

so because we got to a cup final- Puel is better than RK or Poch?

 

How many league points are we in front or behind of Everton, chelsea, west Brom, Man U, Liverpool , Spurs or even Bournemouth..compared to last season? That will tell you the progress we have made.

Sorry to trouble you old chap, but would you be kind enough to engage with the rest of the argument as well as the cup final? Specifically the Mane but, Europe matches and Chelsea/Liverpool?

[OldNick]

Our squad is still better than Evertons.

 

When Koeman arrived we lost Shaw, Lallana, Lovren, Lambert, Chambers - he didn't make excuses and we didn't need to make them for him.

 

Puel has divided the fan base. He's marmite

Puel hasn't made excuses either. It is fans like yourself who try and divide the fanbase on this issue.

 

Your point was that Koeman would have done better than Puel as RK has done well at Everton. Like I said and you cant counter, he was not robbed of the main source of goals, unlike Puel. RK rightly knew our owners were not going to build but weaken the squad again, why risk your reputation by staying and doing worse due to the squad being less effective.

 

Oh and your statement that our squad is better than Evertons is laughable, who would get into their first 11 at present?? our best are injured, and Romeau may not get in front of Morgan, Bertrand instead of Baines? Redmond may well do, and Gabby in frot of Lukaku???

Edited 16 April, 2017 by OldNick

[Heisenberg]

Puel hasn't made excuses either. It is fans like yourself who try and divide the fanbase on this issue.

 

Your point was that Koeman would have done better than Puel as RK has done well at Everton. Like I said and you cant counter, he was not robbed of the main source of goals, unlike Puel. RK rightly knew our owners were not going to build but weaken the squad again, why risk your reputation by staying and doing worse due to the squad being less effective.

 

The circumstances were the same, if not worse for Koeman

 

When Koeman arrived he lost Lallana and Lambert (sold) and Jay (long term injury) - they were our main source of goals. Between them 38 goals and 22 assists season before.

 

Puel lost Mane and Pelle (22 league goals)

[Batman]

Puel hasn't made excuses either. It is fans like yourself who try and divide the fanbase on this issue.

 

Your point was that Koeman would have done better than Puel as RK has done well at Everton. Like I said and you cant counter, he was not robbed of the main source of goals, unlike Puel. RK rightly knew our owners were not going to build but weaken the squad again, why risk your reputation by staying and doing worse due to the squad being less effective.

 

Oh and your statement that our squad is better than Evertons is laughable, who would get into their first 11 at present?? our best are injured, and Romeau may not get in front of Morgan, Bertrand instead of Baines? Redmond may well do, and Gabby in frot of Lukaku???

 

at the start of the season, who would have made up a saints/everton 11

 

Forster

 

Coleman

VvD

Fonte

Bertrand

 

Romeu

Idrisa

 

Barkley

Tadic

Redmond

 

Lukaku

 

 

No doubt many would have had boufal in there when he first arrived given the hype and expectation and all that

 

 

 

 

now, do that now....be very different according to you

 

 

I may be harsh on Puel but he is simply not as good a manager as Ron in this country.....I doubt he ever will be either

Edited 16 April, 2017 by Batman

[Pamplemousse]

We'd be in a relegation battle with Koeman, especially with all of these injuries we have. Puel has worked wonders considering.

 

Some of the football he had us playing last season was dire. The away game at Norwich, losing 1-0, was a real low point.

[Lord Duckhunter]

at the start of the season, who would have made up a saints/everton 11

 

Forster

 

Coleman

VvD

Fonte

Bertrand

 

Romeu

Idrisa

 

Barkley

Tadic

Redmond

 

Lukaku

 

 

No doubt many would have had boufal in there when he first arrived given the hype and expectation and all that

 

 

 

 

now, do that now....be very different according to you

 

So before he'd played a game for saints you'd have had Redmond in a combined Everton/Saints 11.

 

 

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[OldNick]

So before he'd played a game for saints you'd have had Redmond in a combined Everton/Saints 11.

 

 

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and Romeu was not rated in the main. RK has been able to really strengthen eg Morgan

[Batman]

So before he'd played a game for saints you'd have had Redmond in a combined Everton/Saints 11.

 

 

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Not me, going on what the general vibe was on here.

at the time, Fonte was the muts nuts given he had just won the Euro's and Boufal was the next Hazard

reckon many would have had cedric in above Coleman...but a saints/everton 11 in the summer would have been dominated by saints players

now, Nick is suggesting 'who would get into their team'........not that long ago, we would have asked that question about their players and our team. Before we regressed with a crap summer

[Lord Duckhunter]

We'd be in a relegation battle with Koeman, especially with all of these injuries we have. Puel has worked wonders considering.

 

Some of the football he had us playing last season was dire. The away game at Norwich, losing 1-0, was a real low point.

 

So was Watford, Palace , Boscombe & West Brom away. Home games against Liverpool in the cup, home to Everton (yes Everton when they were so shiete pre the genius Ron), Home to Stoke & Villa . I've no doubt the same plums calling for Puels head were doing the same to Koeman then.

 

 

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[doddisalegend]

Always good to re-visit old threads in times like this. Really this thread wouldn't look out of place among them just replace Puel with Koeman and Koeman with Poch....

 

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?55001-Koeman-out!&highlight=Koeman

 

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?55635-Has-Koeman-lost-it&highlight=Koeman

 

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?55697-Koeman-this-season&highlight=Koeman

Edited 16 April, 2017 by doddisalegend

[Batman]

Always good to re-visit old threads in times like this really this thread wouldn't look out of place among them just replace Puel with Koeman and Koeman with Poch....

 

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?55001-Koeman-out!&highlight=Koeman

 

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?55635-Has-Koeman-lost-it&highlight=Koeman

 

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?55697-Koeman-this-season&highlight=Koeman

 

and to think, Koeman was at one point, two games from the boot.

 

Koeman came good, will Puel...guess next season we will see

[nta786]

and to think, Koeman was at one point, two games from the boot.

 

Koeman came good, will Puel...guess next season we will see

 

two games from the boot... to 6th place, shows what an end we did have.

[Mowgli]

You can only compare them really after two seasons. Koeman has got an underperforming Everton playing to their true level but that is not great achievement given the quality of players they have. I think he will be found out next season. Puel can only get better with a full pre season under his belt - how much better remains to be seen.

[Pamplemousse]

So was Watford, Palace , Boscombe & West Brom away. Home games against Liverpool in the cup, home to Everton (yes Everton when they were so shiete pre the genius Ron), Home to Stoke & Villa . I've no doubt the same plums calling for Puels head were doing the same to Koeman then.

 

 

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Yup, and I was one of them! Although he did turn it around, I'm glad we have Puel now.

[Cartman]

Poch > Puel > Koeman > Adkins

 

Without Mané we would have finished in the bottom half last season. And we underachieved the season before considering the players Koeman had available to him.

We have had the fixture list and injury list from hell this season and lost the best player we have had since Le Tiss in the summer and yet we are 9th, Koeman wouldn't have done any better without anyone to hoof to and Mané to bail him out.

Next season Koeman won't have Lukaku and will have Europa fixtures unless he parks the bus and still loses to some random team in the qualifiers, expect Everton to drop like a stone.

He is still the manager who took a team with Cañizares, Albiol, Marchena, Albelda, Villa, Baraja, Morientes, Banega, Helguera, Mata, Joaquín and David Silva to the brink of relegation before getting sacked, reminds me of Mourinho sometimes, abrasive character that players eventually get fed up with and force out.

Poch is clearly the best of the lot though. If we ever get taken over by someone with very deep pockets, pushing Levy aside and taking Poch back should at the top of the to do list.

[team-saint]

Koeman came in as we lost Lambert, Lallana, Shaw, Lovren and Chambers. However compared to the previous year, we finished four points and one place higher. Second season he lost Morgan and Clyne. We played four games in the Europa League. We finished a place higher with three more points.

 

So Koeman kept us improving despite losing key players both years and despite having to play some Europa games. Puel by contrast has taken us backwards. Yes, he has lost Mane and Pelle (although has gained Austin, Redmond, Boufal and now Gabbiadini) and has had to play 6 Europa games, but is it really a harder situation than Koeman faced and yet managed to keep us improving?

 

Finishing sixth again in this year's league was always going to be very difficult and 8th and a cup final would be a decent season IMO. But the main problem I have with Puel is the negative tactics and turgid football we have played so often this year. Under Koeman we beat every team in the league during his two seasons. We won two years in a row at Old Trafford, away at Chelsea, away at Spurs, put four past Man City and Arsenal, 8 past Sunderland and 6 past Villa. I can't remember a single game this season which really gave me the sort of feeling that those sorts of results give you. And a lot of that, in my opinion, is because of Puel's tactics and showing far too much respect to the big boys. Koeman pragmatism sometimes meant playing quite direct but who cares when we're thrashing top four teams!

[Batman]

Poch > Puel > Koeman > Adkins

 

Without Mané we would have finished in the bottom half last season. And we underachieved the season before considering the players Koeman had available to him.

We have had the fixture list and injury list from hell this season and lost the best player we have had since Le Tiss in the summer and yet we are 9th, Koeman wouldn't have done any better without anyone to hoof to and Mané to bail him out.

Next season Koeman won't have Lukaku and will have Europa fixtures unless he parks the bus and still loses to some random team in the qualifiers, expect Everton to drop like a stone.

He is still the manager who took a team with Cañizares, Albiol, Marchena, Albelda, Villa, Baraja, Morientes, Banega, Helguera, Mata, Joaquín and David Silva to the brink of relegation before getting sacked, reminds me of Mourinho sometimes, abrasive character that players eventually get fed up with and force out.

Poch is clearly the best of the lot though. If we ever get taken over by someone with very deep pockets, pushing Levy aside and taking Poch back should at the top of the to do list.

 

[Saint-Fred]

Sorry to trouble you old chap, but would you be kind enough to engage with the rest of the argument as well as the cup final? Specifically the Mane but, Europe matches and Chelsea/Liverpool?

 

We played TWO more games in Europe than the year before..

Chelsea/Liverpool? Not sure what the argument is about them other than we keep strengthening Liverpool.

Mane? Apparently he is the only player who has left a club...FFS he isn't Messi he left the same as all the others but one player leaving isn't the end of the world?

[Saint-Fred]

So was Watford, Palace , Boscombe & West Brom away. Home games against Liverpool in the cup, home to Everton (yes Everton when they were so shiete pre the genius Ron), Home to Stoke & Villa . I've no doubt the same plums calling for Puels head were doing the same to Koeman then.

 

 

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Nope never called for Keomans head or Poch, not really calling for Puels head but I do think he is not a great manager who is more likely to take us down than forward.

unlike those before him, including Adkins, I really wouldn't be bothered if he went.

I think the happy clappers who are trying to make him out as the saviour of the world are probably the same ones who say a any player leaving is/was rubbish....

[Jonnyboy]

You can only compare them really after two seasons. Koeman has got an underperforming Everton playing to their true level but that is not great achievement given the quality of players they have. I think he will be found out next season. Puel can only get better with a full pre season under his belt - how much better remains to be seen.

 

Indeed, I thought the general consensus in here was that Koeman was bound to look good by the end of this season due to the quality of Everton squad. Whereas Puel was handed a bit of a poisoned chalice.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

I think we would have won the EFL cup, still be in Europe and the fa cup and been crowned premier league champions by now

Because Koeman his the best manager in the world

[Saint-Fred]

I think we would have won the EFL cup, still be in Europe and the fa cup and been crowned premier league champions by now

Because Koeman his the best manager in the world

 

Lol no one is saying he is brilliant, there are loads better than Koeman...but we are saying he has got a better record than Puel... Not sure why the happy clappers have to have everyone either the best in the world or the worst with nothing in between...

And also that they are the best whilst with us then ****e when they leave..how does that always happen?

[Roger]

Clearly Puel is the better manager, he has managed to get us to a cup final, comfortable in mid table, despite losing our best player, having no strike force for the majority of the season, having his established captain sold from under his feet, and having to rely on some of the kids for the majority of the season. All of that whilst having to negotiate lots more games as well. All in all a remarkable achievement from Claude Puel.

 

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Jesus what an amazing post.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Jesus what an amazing post.

 

Indeed, amazingly accurate

[Micky]

Jesus what an amazing post.

Thanks, I do try.

 

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[striker]

I think Puel is good, so I'm not a "Puel go" guy like some here. However I think Koeman is the better manager. He has done a very good job everywhere he's gone. I think he's done very well at Everton this season. Puel has been dealt a tough hand. Losing his only goal scorer in December in Austin, and not getting another until Gabbi a few weeks ago. He also lost the center of his defence in Fonte and VVD. Next season with Austin and Gabbi in full force, VVD back, and the youngsters with another year under their belt, we should be improved.