North Korea

[Lighthouse]

Of course it's not nonsensical, if the US are trying to provoke a reaction from NK to legitimise regime change then they are going about it the right way - crippling sanctions (which won't harm the leaders, only the people - like Iraq) and military provocation.

 

Kim Jong-un is a nasty piece of work but I can't see what he has to gain by starting a war - like most dictators he is only interested in keeping hold of power and feathering his own nest. He has too much to lose by starting a war because he knows he will be finished and NK will end up as rubble. The danger comes when he has nothing to lose.

 

If the US's only concern is peace I fail to see the logic of military exercises on NK's doorstep at a time when tensions are so high - that's where I agree totally with China and Russia's stance.

 

That's your problem, you're looking at this from the 'it must be our fault somehow' viewpoint people talk about whenever there is a terrorist attack. This isn't America looking for a regime change, they have no interest in their economy, natural resources or anything else; It's a sparsely populated mountainous wasteland. This is about a nutter trying to build a nuclear ICBM so he can aim it at Seattle or San Francisco.

[Colinjb]

That's your problem, you're looking at this from the 'it must be our fault somehow' viewpoint people talk about whenever there is a terrorist attack. This isn't America looking for a regime change, they have no interest in their economy, natural resources or anything else; It's a sparsely populated mountainous wasteland. This is about a nutter trying to build a nuclear ICBM so he can aim it at Seattle or San Francisco.

 

I see it another way, they are looking for a regime change to avoid the risk of an ICBM hitting their population.

[Verbal]

How would you handle it aintforever if you were America?

 

Indeed. However, the first rule of Saintsweb Fight Club - you don't agree with ANYONE.

 

Of course it's not nonsensical, if the US are trying to provoke a reaction from NK to legitimise regime change then they are going about it the right way - crippling sanctions (which won't harm the leaders, only the people - like Iraq) and military provocation.

 

Kim Jong-un is a nasty piece of work but I can't see what he has to gain by starting a war - like most dictators he is only interested in keeping hold of power and feathering his own nest. He has too much to lose by starting a war because he knows he will be finished and NK will end up as rubble. The danger comes when he has nothing to lose.

 

If the US's only concern is peace I fail to see the logic of military exercises on NK's doorstep at a time when tensions are so high - that's where I agree totally with China and Russia's stance.

 

There you go again, slip-sliding your argument. We weren't talking about US and SK battle manoeuvres (largely reactive, it seems to me, to war games being played by one of the two weird-haired lunatics in this saga). We were talking about sanctions and what you call 'force' (It's a stretch to say manoeuvres are force - force is when you actually invade something or land a missile on it).

 

But worse than that, your post is saddled with that dreary, unthinking anti-Americanism so characteristic of Momentum-ish and stop-the-war cultists, which is actually a form of patronising racism. The assumption is that the actual supposed objects of American sanctions are merely victims, lacking all agency in the face of the almighty power of the West.

 

Which means Saddam wasn't in any way responsible for the fate of hie people under international sanctions, just as Kim isn't now. Absolute twaddle.

 

In the mid-90s I travelled the length of the border between Jordan and Iraq, right in the midst of sanctions - especially with embargoes on oil and medicines. All along that border, trucks were backing up and transferring goods and fuel onto Iraqi trucks. The cross-border trade was phenomenal, in a large area where the only sign of a border was the odd sign here and there saying you were in Iraq or Jordan.

 

The sanctions were completely ineffective. The huge smuggling operations benefitted the Iraqi elites, both as financiers of the trade and beneficiaries. Saddam, however, wanted the sanctions to look effective, to keep this trade running smoothly. So he deliberately withheld supplies, creating devastating shortages, in public hospitals and in food markets in particular.

 

In N Korea, the terrible food shortages which are presently turning into yet another catastrophic famine, are not the result of international sanctions but of widespread crop failures brought on partly by climate change, but more especially by a totalitarian oddball determined to drive his own people brutally into the dirt to embellish his power base.

 

So drop the knee-jerk, flaccid anti-Americanisms, and, as I said before, be prepared to think. The world is just a tad more complex than you seem able to cope with.

[aintforever]

How would you handle it aintforever if you were America?

 

I can't see any other option but dialogue. Sanctions are not working, it's just a matter of time before NK have nukes wether the US like it or not.

[Lighthouse]

I can't see any other option but dialogue. Sanctions are not working, it's just a matter of time before NK have nukes wether the US like it or not.

 

Perhaps Trumps should fly to North Korea and meet with Kim Jong Un, then he can come home, step off Air Force 1 holding a piece of paper and declare, "Peace in our time".

[aintforever]

Perhaps Trumps should fly to North Korea and meet with Kim Jong Un, then he can come home, step off Air Force 1 holding a piece of paper and declare, "Peace in our time".

 

Na, he would be better off making threats and playing war games of their coast - that's gonna cool things down.

[aintforever]

Indeed. However, the first rule of Saintsweb Fight Club - you don't agree with ANYONE.

 

 

 

There you go again, slip-sliding your argument. We weren't talking about US and SK battle manoeuvres (largely reactive, it seems to me, to war games being played by one of the two weird-haired lunatics in this saga). We were talking about sanctions and what you call 'force' (It's a stretch to say manoeuvres are force - force is when you actually invade something or land a missile on it).

 

But worse than that, your post is saddled with that dreary, unthinking anti-Americanism so characteristic of Momentum-ish and stop-the-war cultists, which is actually a form of patronising racism. The assumption is that the actual supposed objects of American sanctions are merely victims, lacking all agency in the face of the almighty power of the West.

 

Which means Saddam wasn't in any way responsible for the fate of hie people under international sanctions, just as Kim isn't now. Absolute twaddle.

 

In the mid-90s I travelled the length of the border between Jordan and Iraq, right in the midst of sanctions - especially with embargoes on oil and medicines. All along that border, trucks were backing up and transferring goods and fuel onto Iraqi trucks. The cross-border trade was phenomenal, in a large area where the only sign of a border was the odd sign here and there saying you were in Iraq or Jordan.

 

The sanctions were completely ineffective. The huge smuggling operations benefitted the Iraqi elites, both as financiers of the trade and beneficiaries. Saddam, however, wanted the sanctions to look effective, to keep this trade running smoothly. So he deliberately withheld supplies, creating devastating shortages, in public hospitals and in food markets in particular.

 

In N Korea, the terrible food shortages which are presently turning into yet another catastrophic famine, are not the result of international sanctions but of widespread crop failures brought on partly by climate change, but more especially by a totalitarian oddball determined to drive his own people brutally into the dirt to embellish his power base.

 

So drop the knee-jerk, flaccid anti-Americanisms, and, as I said before, be prepared to think. The world is just a tad more complex than you seem able to cope with.

 

I don't disagree with your analysis of the sanctions in Iraq, I have read enough first hand accounts of the Iraq war to known how Saddam benefitted from the black market whilst the population suffered - and I don't absolve his blame for that. But fact is sanctions led to much suffering and deaths of innocent Iraqis, as in NK it is always the people who suffer, never those at the top.

[hypochondriac]

I can't see any other option but dialogue. Sanctions are not working, it's just a matter of time before NK have nukes wether the US like it or not.

And if north Korea refuse to talk?

[Batman]

And if north Korea refuse to talk?

 

the US did the dialogue bit when Clinton was around. Gave the nuclear reactors for energy for the people (or the ability to build their own)

instead, they used this advancement to aid their weapons development and the US cut ties in 2005

[hypochondriac]

the US did the dialogue bit when Clinton was around. Gave the nuclear reactors for energy for the people (or the ability to build their own)

instead, they used this advancement to aid their weapons development and the US cut ties in 2005

It's a tactic from the north to pretend to engage in order to extract concessions before going right back to their previous behaviour. Promoting more dialogue isn't going to change that.

[Saint in Paradise]

IMHO this situation has all been a long term plan by the Chinese that has now blown up in their face. They do not want

U.S. forces right on their border, a bit like the Russians don't like NATO troops near theirs. Why either major country is

worried by the West I have no clear idea as History has shown that invading Russia is one of the most stupid idiotic ideas

ever thought of. Invading China would be just as gormless, they aren't a small country who couldn't fight back like Iraq couldn't.

It appears that China wants a buffer zone between themselves and South Korea hence why they 100% support North Korea.

I am sure that in the past they could indeed have quietly controlled NK but these days they are not so able to do so. So much so

that I think that now they are even a bit scared of NK and don't know what to do seeing as NK is a threat to China. The Chinese

thought that they were being so clever but Oops they have backed themselves into a corner and are not sure how to get out of it

without losing "Face". They cannot be shown to openly support the U.S. by threatening force against NK. So they have waited too

long now and whether they like it or not the U.S. might just say stuff you China, your arrogant stupidity has left us no choice.

 

On a side note I wonder how many so called world leaders would pass the U.K. test to become a licenced firearm holder? I can't really

think of one and yet they are allowed to have control of world ending weapons.

[OldNick]

At no time during the Cold War as I was growing up,did I ever feel the threat of a nuclear bomb going off (To be fair I was too young to know what was going on during the Cuban crisis)

I would not put money on this not happening in the near future.

The treats of this will not only be from NK, but many terrorist organisations spread throughout the world. If they sent one off, where could you retaliate.

I read about 5 years ago that the Russians couldn't account for a 2 or 3 suitcase bombs that had terrible capabilities for destruction, that were lost in the breakup of the Soviet Union. The fear was that they were out there to be sold.

It is sad but I expect to wake up one day and see that a city has been nuked.

We are powerless to Oppenheimers pandoras box

[benjii]

Fatty done a nuke:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41139445

 

OldNick, are you #itk?

[shurlock]

Fatty done a nuke:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41139445

 

OldNick, are you #itk?

 

Old Nick's bosses mate has suits made at the same tailor on Savile Row that makes fatty's Zhongshan or Mao suits.

 

#ITK

[OldNick]

Old Nick's bosses mate has suits made at the same tailor on Savile Row that makes fatty's Zhongshan or Mao suits.

 

#ITK

???? I don't have a boss, except 'her indoors' of course

[van Hanegem]

I hope this is a stalemate in which NK realises it will be blown to pieces when they would actually attack another country and the West will leave NK to it's own as there's nothing to gain from messing around with them. It must be horrific to live in NK when you don't agree with your government but I reckon that most of their citizens are brainwashed and would be devastated when "liberated" from Kim c.s. Imagine millions of deluded North Koreans looking for revenge while we can't even control 50.000 or so radical muslims...

[Lighthouse]

I hope this is a stalemate in which NK realises it will be blown to pieces when they would actually attack another country and the West will leave NK to it's own as there's nothing to gain from messing around with them. It must be horrific to live in NK when you don't agree with your government but I reckon that most of their citizens are brainwashed and would be devastated when "liberated" from Kim c.s. Imagine millions of deluded North Koreans looking for revenge while we can't even control 50.000 or so radical muslims...

 

A few probably but not most. No amount of brainwashing is going to convince a person of how glorious it is to watch your family and friends be arrested, tortured and murdered, whilst you're starving and eating rats.

[farawaysaint]

If Kim was to get ousted a general would take over which might even be worse.

[van Hanegem]

A few probably but not most. No amount of brainwashing is going to convince a person of how glorious it is to watch your family and friends be arrested, tortured and murdered, whilst you're starving and eating rats.

 

Luckily I have no experience with brainwashing but I can imagine what will happen to a child's brain when it's treated the way it is in North Korea. Remember the Hitler-Youth or the kids in China who betrayed their parents back in the days of "the great leap forward", they were living in horrific circumstances but still they believed in their so called leaders and their teachings. Of course there are a lot of North Korean people who're still sane and keep trying to escape (even when they know it will harm their family members who stay behind) but over 50 years of indoctrination will have srewed up more than a few...

 

You might believe that the people in this clip are all faking because they know they will be sent to some camp when they don't cry loud enough but you could be wrong...

 

[Lighthouse]

You might believe that the people in this clip are all faking because they know they will be sent to some camp when they don't cry loud enough but you could be wrong...

 

 

I do, they are, they will, I'm not

[van Hanegem]

I do, they are, they will, I'm not

 

It must be awesome being you!

[Ohio Saint]

I think you are both right. It's probably a bit of each, depending on the individual. I know, it's hard to imagine that these are real people with different thought processes when they all look the same.

[Lighthouse]

I think you are both right. It's probably a bit of each, depending on the individual. I know, it's hard to imagine that these are real people with different thought processes when they all look the same.

 

North Korea is just one bloke and a sh*t load of mirrors. Should make a military campaign fairly easy TBH.

[Ohio Saint]

North Korea is just one bloke and a sh*t load of mirrors. Should make a military campaign fairly easy TBH.

 

No arguments there. Unfortunately I see a missile launch before that happens. On the bright side, I don't foresee successful missile hit.

[Lighthouse]

It must be awesome being you!

 

In all seriousness though, even Hitler did do great things for Germany which made him immensely popular. He took over a bankrupt country, being crippled and humiliated by French and British sanctions, wiped out unemployment and built some of the greatest architecture and technology in the world. Even in Saddam's Iraq the standard of living was relatively high, with education and healthcare and widespread development in infrastructure.

 

North Korea has none of that. I'd wager 99% of people hate living there.

[van Hanegem]

In all seriousness though, even Hitler did do great things for Germany which made him immensely popular. He took over a bankrupt country, being crippled and humiliated by French and British sanctions, wiped out unemployment and built some of the greatest architecture and technology in the world. Even in Saddam's Iraq the standard of living was relatively high, with education and healthcare and widespread development in infrastructure.

 

North Korea has none of that. I'd wager 99% of people hate living there.

 

True, in the beginning Hitler achieved more for Germany than the Kim family will ever do for North Korea. But in the end Hitler's Germany was completely ruined and still teenagers were willing to give their life for him. I'm not sure wether North Koreans do get much information about living outside NK as the media are controlled by the government (I assume they get some when the government occasionally permits contact with relatives from South Korea and also from doing business with the Chinese) but it wouldn't surprise me when many of them believe it's "fake news" that there's "freedom of speech" etc. outside NK. Imagine that you get to hear your whole life that you're living in paradise and that there are dangerous enemies who are threatening you and there is no way you can find out for yourself wether it's true...

 

Anyway, would you like Trump or someone else to wage war against NK in order to remove the Kim dynasty with the risk of nuclear strikes?

[aintforever]

In all seriousness though, even Hitler did do great things for Germany which made him immensely popular. He took over a bankrupt country, being crippled and humiliated by French and British sanctions, wiped out unemployment and built some of the greatest architecture and technology in the world. Even in Saddam's Iraq the standard of living was relatively high, with education and healthcare and widespread development in infrastructure.

 

North Korea has none of that. I'd wager 99% of people hate living there.

 

I dunno, I think a large proportion would gladly see the back of him but 99% is very optimistic. I think you underestimate the power of state propaganda.

 

I expect most just don't know how poor their standard of living is compared to the rest of the World and those that are suffering will just blame the US and the sanctions. Plus with these sort of dictatorships there is always a percentage that side with the leader, not matter how appalling, because it feathers their nest. Also there is the history of Korea and their suffering from Americas bombs and their leader being their saviour which will shape their thinking.

 

IF the Yanks star a war there it's going to be a right mess, the Chinese are the only people who can intervene IMO.

[van Hanegem]

Not a bad idea at all...

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/north-korea-crisis-us-navy-seal-tweets-solution-kim-jong-un-nuclear-missile-testing-a7942756.html

[farawaysaint]

Not a bad idea at all...

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/north-korea-crisis-us-navy-seal-tweets-solution-kim-jong-un-nuclear-missile-testing-a7942756.html

 

Weeelll I mean it would cost $250bn excluding the satellites so maybe something cheaper

[buctootim]

Weeelll I mean it would cost $250bn excluding the satellites so maybe something cheaper

 

Only about £5bn for the phones if you drop 25 million £200 phones. How much do satellites cost nowadays? Got to be cheaper than military build up.

[farawaysaint]

Only about £5bn for the phones if you drop 25 million £200 phones. How much do satellites cost nowadays? Got to be cheaper than military build up.

 

He suggested iphones ok?

[hypochondriac]

He suggested iphones ok?

Just drop older models. You can probably get them cheaper if you buy in bulk.

[farawaysaint]

All a bit academic really considering the article states that the last time a propaganda war was attempted the Kim regime responded militarily. So basically it would just **** them off enough to start shooting.

[aintforever]

Only about £5bn for the phones if you drop 25 million £200 phones. How much do satellites cost nowadays? Got to be cheaper than military build up.

 

But their batteries are **** so we would have to drop 25 million chargers within a few hours or the whole thing would be pointless.

[Lighthouse]

I like the use of the word 'drop' as if it's that simple. From where exactly, because a formation of B52s flying over NK is pretty much going to start a war regardless of what they're dropping.

 

I think we should just play Genesis Greatest Hits across the border from the South until they either commit suicide or just die of boredom.

[buctootim]

we should just play Genesis Greatest Hits across the border from the South until they either commit suicide or just die of boredom.

 

 

Stay with me Kim

My love I hope you'll always be

Right here by my side if ever I needed you

Oh my love

 

In your arms Kim,

I feel so safe and so secure

Everyday is such a perfect day to spend

Alone with you

 

I will follow you Kim

All the days and nights that we know will be

I will stay with you will you stay with me

Just one single tear in each passing year

Edited 14 September, 2017 by buctootim

[farawaysaint]

I like the use of the word 'drop' as if it's that simple. From where exactly, because a formation of B52s flying over NK is pretty much going to start a war regardless of what they're dropping.

 

I think we should just play Genesis Greatest Hits across the border from the South until they either commit suicide or just die of boredom.

 

Catapults.

[van Hanegem]

Weeelll I mean it would cost $250bn excluding the satellites so maybe something cheaper

 

LOL

 

Surely there must be some EU-official who can fine Apple for 250bn for some reason, payable in obsolete iPhones...

[saint si]

He's proposing Wi-Fi via satellite ?! ... yeah the price of the phones isn't the only flaw in this plan

[benjii]

If it comes to a war of words then Trump's ****ed:

 

https://kcnawatch.co/newstream/1506033115-921520320/statement-of-chairman-of-state-affairs-commission-of-dprk/

[the saint in winchester]

He's a dotard, then - if only we knew what that meant.

While we reach for our extreme dictionaries, we get nuked.

[Ohio Saint]

If only Peter Gabriel had stayed with Genesis. It would have prevented a nuclear war!

[skintsaint]

Rumours are Kim is ****ed after surgery. Could be the end of this regime.

[spyinthesky]

Rumours are Kim is ****ed after surgery. Could be the end of this regime.

 

Cant be true.

 

Trump called CNN out on a report of his good friend Kim's reported death.

 

Fake News he reckons despite the fact some reports out of China reckoning Kim ingested bleach to prevent Covid 19!!

[hypochondriac]

Rumours are Kim is ****ed after surgery. Could be the end of this regime.

Doubt it. Probably his sister will take charge.

[harvey]

Rumours are Kim is ****ed after surgery. Could be the end of this regime.

 

Well all I can say if true...the surgeons are also ****ed.

[Lighthouse]

Here's his surgical team leaving the operating theater after the heart monitor went flat.

 

[Weston Super Saint]

Here's his surgical team leaving the operating theater after the heart monitor went flat.

 

 

Looks like they've got a PPE shortage as well.

[Lighthouse]

There’s a photo going around Twitter alleging to show him in a glass coffin. Heap of salt and all that...