North Korea

[Jonnyboy]

I just watched the documentary on BBC2 about the assassination of Kim Jong Nam, simply because Kim Jong Un was paranoid about the idea that, as the eldest (though illegitimate) son of Kim Jong Il, he could pose a threat to the solidity of his leadership. Fascinating insight into a truly horrific ruling regime.

 

Also, I decided today to do a little reading into the history of Korea, and more specifically the Korean war in the early 50s that split the country into the two states, as I realise I know very little about it other than it being mainly a front for the wider conflict between the US and the Soviet Union. It's actually little wonder that NK hates America so much to this day, given that the USAF pretty much flattened the entire country with its bombing campaign.

 

Killed about 30% off the entire population I believe?

[Batman]

Im surprised we are still not in a state of war with Germany to be fair. Given the death on both sides

[farawaysaint]

It doesn't matter how many "secret tunnels" they have because you can bet the South Koreans, Chinese, US and everyone else know where they all are.

Their technology is sheite and they wouldn't last a week if the US did a full scale invasion.

To me, this all goes back to Bush's Axis of Evil speech. They've took out the leadership of Iraq and Libya. That leaves Iran and North Korea. I'm not sure they've made the world any safer although they have spilled a f*ck tonne of blood.

Apparently America and the west killed three million North Koreans in the 1950s in their paranoid vendetta against communism so what's a few million more between enemies.

 

Actually, they don't. IIRC there is a bounty for discovering these tunnel entrances.

[shurlock]

Fat boy's fired another missile - pressing his luck.

[whelk]

Fat boy's fired another missile - pressing his luck.

 

The other fat boy is too busy pardoning racists, dictating who should be in the military he was so desperately scared of joining and standing up to the might of Harvey.

 

Hard to keep up.

[Batman]

The other fat boy is too busy pardoning racists, dictating who should be in the military he was so desperately scared of joining and standing up to the might of Harvey.

 

Hard to keep up.

 

dictating who should be in the military is hardly a stick to beat him with

every country does it.

[whelk]

dictating who should be in the military is hardly a stick to beat him with

every country does it.

 

Do you agree with what he is doing with the ban?

[Batman]

Do you agree with what he is doing with the ban?

 

have no idea what ban they do over there. Always changes.

Same over here. We restrict against the 7 protected characteristics (which is illegal in most cases outside of the military) and no one is really bothered. They restrict against others.

Other nations who we hold up as beacons of light will no doubt restrict against other characteristics that we do not.

Edited 26 August, 2017 by Batman

[shurlock]

Missiles now flying over Japan. Provocative stuff.

Edited 29 August, 2017 by shurlock

[Lighthouse]

I know Pyongyang like their rhetoric and sabre rattling but they're really pushing their luck.

[Batman]

Missiles now flying over Japan. Provocative stuff.

 

 

but...

Surely a sovereign nation is allowed to test their own weapons?

[hypochondriac]

I know Pyongyang like their rhetoric and sabre rattling but they're really pushing their luck.

What have they actually done? Fired a few crappy missiles and hit no one so far. It's all bluster which will die down after the war games.

[skintsaint]

What have they actually done? Fired a few crappy missiles and hit no one so far. It's all bluster which will die down after the war games.

 

I wonder if you would think the same if, for example Russia started testing missiles over the UK ...

 

Must have freaked some Japanese residents out when the alarms rang etc.

[aintforever]

I know Pyongyang like their rhetoric and sabre rattling but they're really pushing their luck.

 

No mention of the joint US Japan military exercises that are going on?

 

When the US hold military exercises miles away from their country on the doorstep of a Nation they have previously been at war at its not called sabre rattling, North Korea test a few misiles from their own soil and it is?

[hypochondriac]

I wonder if you would think the same if, for example Russia started testing missiles over the UK ...

 

Must have freaked some Japanese residents out when the alarms rang etc.

I would do if Russia has a long long history of bluster and this sort of thing. It's a show of defiance from north Korea, if they wanted to actually provoke something then it wouldn't be hard to do but thata the last thing they want because they aren't stupid.

[Batman]

Missiles now flying over Japan. Provocative stuff.

 

No mention of the joint US Japan military exercises that are going on?

 

When the US hold military exercises miles away from their country on the doorstep of a Nation they have previously been at war at its not called sabre rattling, North Korea test a few misiles from their own soil and it is?

 

which they do every year in international waters

like we do in the northern atlantic...twice a year and usually f-ing huge

[Window Cleaner]

which they do every year in international waters

like we do in the northern atlantic...twice a year and usually f-ing huge

 

Aha, Baltops, big **** swinging parade of about 60 units 20 miles off the Russian coast. Don't usually read about it in the papers though. Whereas a couple of Russian ships wandering through the Channel, well what a scandal.

[Batman]

Aha, Baltops, big **** swinging parade of about 60 units 20 miles off the Russian coast. Don't usually read about it in the papers though. Whereas a couple of Russian ships wandering through the Channel, well what a scandal.

 

not baltops, that is not in the northern atlantic.

but yeah, add that too. Along with countless other exercises. Russia still doesnt launch nuclear missiles over NATO nations

[Window Cleaner]

not baltops, that is not in the northern atlantic.

but yeah, add that too. Along with countless other exercises. Russia still doesnt launch nuclear missiles over NATO nations

 

So you're thinking Joint Warrior then ? Not so provocative as Baltops though. My lad said they could see the Russian people on shore with just ordinary binoculars.

[Batman]

So you're thinking Joint Warrior then ? Not so provocative as Baltops though. My lad said they could see the Russian people on shore with just ordinary binoculars.

 

Baltops usually includes excellent port visits

[Window Cleaner]

Baltops usually includes excellent port visits

 

Yep, Estonia is a top place apparently. Even got a post card once.

[Lighthouse]

No mention of the joint US Japan military exercises that are going on?

 

When the US hold military exercises miles away from their country on the doorstep of a Nation they have previously been at war at its not called sabre rattling, North Korea test a few misiles from their own soil and it is?

 

As far as I am aware, the US aren't firing missiles into North Korean aispace. Had there been some sort of fault and a missile had come down on the Japanese mainland, even away from built up areas, it really would have escalated the situation.

[aintforever]

As far as I am aware, the US aren't firing missiles into North Korean aispace. Had there been some sort of fault and a missile had come down on the Japanese mainland, even away from built up areas, it really would have escalated the situation.

 

Just like the US playing War games off the North Korean coast could escalate the situation.

 

Face it, if a fleet of North Korean War ships were playing war games off the coast of the US you lot would be ****ing your pants.

[Lighthouse]

Just like the US playing War games off the North Korean coast could escalate the situation.

 

Face it, if a fleet of North Korean War ships were playing war games off the coast of the US you lot would be ****ing your pants.

 

There's a difference though, a line in the sand which they've now crossed. You can do whatever you want inside your own territory, Russia is forever maneuvering troops around on the Latvian border and into Kaliningrad etc. but actively firing a weapon into another countries airspace is another step up entirely. More to the point the US really aren't after a fight, they're only responding to the aggression against them and South Korea/Japan.

 

Your viewpoint seems akin to your older brother walking into your bedroom and hitting you, you hit him back and your mum says "stop it, you're both as bad as each other." You aren't really, are you, there's a clear difference in intentions.

[mack rill]

Now might be a good time for China to have a little word in Florence's ear hole,

[aintforever]

There's a difference though, a line in the sand which they've now crossed. You can do whatever you want inside your own territory, Russia is forever maneuvering troops around on the Latvian border and into Kaliningrad etc. but actively firing a weapon into another countries airspace is another step up entirely. More to the point the US really aren't after a fight, they're only responding to the aggression against them and South Korea/Japan.

 

Your viewpoint seems akin to your older brother walking into your bedroom and hitting you, you hit him back and your mum says "stop it, you're both as bad as each other." You aren't really, are you, there's a clear difference in intentions.

 

North Korea's actions were stupid but if they wanted to start a war they would have aimed the missile at Japan not into the sea. Maybe to them the years of crippling sanctions are an act of aggression.

[Batman]

North Korea's actions were stupid but if they wanted to start a war they would have aimed the missile at Japan not into the sea. Maybe to them the years of crippling sanctions are an act of aggression.

 

the next time Russia exercise in our areas, would we be within our right to throw a Trident over the Kola peninsula (over their northern fleet bases) to land in international waters..?

 

fair enough

[Lighthouse]

North Korea's actions were stupid but if they wanted to start a war they would have aimed the missile at Japan not into the sea. Maybe to them the years of crippling sanctions are an act of aggression.

 

No maybe about it. In their eyes they are the glorious and righteous nation and America is the evil, western aggressor. That is of course entirely incorrect to the rest of the sane world.

 

This incident may not start a war in itself but it certainly escalates things. The assassination of Franz Ferdinand proved what can happen when a small spark is added to the correct fuel mixture.

[hypochondriac]

No maybe about it. In their eyes they are the glorious and righteous nation and America is the evil, western aggressor. That is of course entirely incorrect to the rest of the sane world.

 

This incident may not start a war in itself but it certainly escalates things. The assassination of Franz Ferdinand proved what can happen when a small spark is added to the correct fuel mixture.

The people at the very top in Korea don't believe that lie, their primary motivation is to keep the regime in power whilst continuing to appear strong and self sufficient. This display of strength helps achieve that and as someone else said, if they actually wanted to provoke a war then they would have done. Interesting that they chose to fire a missile over Japan rather than anywhere near Guam like they threatened. Everything they do is very calculated even if it looks like they are aggressive and off the cuff.

[shurlock]

No maybe about it. In their eyes they are the glorious and righteous nation and America is the evil, western aggressor. That is of course entirely incorrect to the rest of the sane world.

 

This incident may not start a war in itself but it certainly escalates things. The assassination of Franz Ferdinand proved what can happen when a small spark is added to the correct fuel mixture.

 

Agree: the North Koreans probably think as long as they stay away from Guam, they can keep taking liberties and pushing their luck. The problem is that the scope for miscalculation and misperception increases with every act of hostility, however calculated, that, at some point, things may slide out of control.

[hypochondriac]

Agree: the North Koreans probably think as long as they stay away from Guam, they can keep taking liberties and pushing their luck. The problem is that the scope for miscalculation and misperception increases with every act of hostility, however calculated, that, at some point, things may slide out of control.

Agree with that, the main fear is that an accident occurs or someone on either side misinterprets somethong and it triggers a war. Neither side wants a war. Edited 29 August, 2017 by hypochondriac

[aintforever]

Agree with that, the main fear is that an accident occurs or someone on either side misinterprets somethong and it triggers a war.

 

That's why it's important to recognise events like this for what they are - an insecure dictator trying to prove how great he is to his people. Not really a good enough reason to start WW3.

[Lighthouse]

That's why it's important to recognise events like this for what they are - an insecure dictator trying to prove how great he is to his people. Not really a good enough reason to start WW3.

 

I think WW3 is a slightly pessimistic take on things, it should really be isolated to the Western Pacific. NK doesn't really have any allies other than China and they won't want to risk nuclear war with The US over some tin-pot next door neighbour who are, quite frankly, an embarrassment to them.

[OldNick]

I think WW3 is a slightly pessimistic take on things, it should really be isolated to the Western Pacific. NK doesn't really have any allies other than China and they won't want to risk nuclear war with The US over some tin-pot next door neighbour who are, quite frankly, an embarrassment to them.

No doubt fanciful and unikely to happen, but if NK did send a few of US cities to ash, would the US ever recover. In that time they would be overtaken in the pecking order by China,who would become potentially the most powerful nation on earth while the US had to try and recover. Yes China would suffer from some fall out but not the carnage the US would have. It is pretty unpalatable but the Chinese seem to me to have opened the Pandoras box and cant shut it now.

[Lighthouse]

No doubt fanciful and unikely to happen, but if NK did send a few of US cities to ash, would the US ever recover. In that time they would be overtaken in the pecking order by China,who would become potentially the most powerful nation on earth while the US had to try and recover. Yes China would suffer from some fall out but not the carnage the US would have. It is pretty unpalatable but the Chinese seem to me to have opened the Pandoras box and cant shut it now.

 

That's why the US may go beyond the rhetoric in order to stop the regime. They may even come to some agreement, 'you can have a puppet/satellite Chinese/communist/dictatorial government when we're done but we're not putting up with these nutters any more.'

[aintforever]

That's why the US may go beyond the rhetoric in order to stop the regime. They may even come to some agreement, 'you can have a puppet/satellite Chinese/communist/dictatorial government when we're done but we're not putting up with these nutters any more.'

 

And what are they going to do about it?

 

As soon as they attempt one of their regime changes the whole area will descend into war wether NK have nukes or not. Surely the best chance for peace is not to push NK into a corner with sanctions and threats but to talk. I think the Russians got it spot on when they said sanctions and force is a road to nowhere or road to catastrophe.

[Lighthouse]

And what are they going to do about it?

 

As soon as they attempt one of their regime changes the whole area will descend into war wether NK have nukes or not. Surely the best chance for peace is not to push NK into a corner with sanctions and threats but to talk. I think the Russians got it spot on when they said sanctions and force is a road to nowhere or road to catastrophe.

 

There are plenty of regimes out there who the Americans don't like and do just that but NK have gone above and beyond. This is a regime who arrested an American student and tortured him to death for stealing a poster. They are every bit as bad as the Nazis and seem to have little interest in peace.

 

I don't think a country which watches its entire population starve, whilst spending billions on a nuclear war head and firing missiles into Japanese airspace, has much interest in diplomacy.

[Verbal]

I think the Russians got it spot on when they said sanctions and force is a road to nowhere or road to catastrophe.

 

They would say that. Don't fall for the Putinbots. The Chinese - much closer allies to NK - disagree.

[aintforever]

They would say that. Don't fall for the Putinbots. The Chinese - much closer allies to NK - disagree.

 

China along with Russia said US military activity in the region was partly to blame for the increase in tensions, and urged negotiations.

[Batman]

China along with Russia said US military activity in the region was partly to blame for the increase in tensions, and urged negotiations.

 

of course they would say that

would you agree that russian activity in our areas would push us to war with them?

[aintforever]

of course they would say that

would you agree that russian activity in our areas would push us to war with them?

 

No, very different scenario.

[Lighthouse]

No, very different scenario.

 

Yes, because Russia, as unfriendly as they might be politically, at least has a sane government. As much as they like sending their 60 year old bombers and only aircraft carrier into the North Sea to try and appear relevant, they aren't actually interested in a fight other than localised skirmishes in Russian speaking parts of Ukraine.

[Verbal]

China along with Russia said US military activity in the region was partly to blame for the increase in tensions, and urged negotiations.

 

You said you thought the Russians got it "spot on" in claiming that sanctions are a road to nowhere. I'm saying the Chinese think otherwise, and have applied severe sanctions. Not hard to understand.

[aintforever]

You said you thought the Russians got it "spot on" in claiming that sanctions are a road to nowhere. I'm saying the Chinese think otherwise, and have applied severe sanctions. Not hard to understand.

 

Sanctions and force - learn to read.

 

The Chinese don't seem to think the yanks military activity in the region are a great idea. Considering the temperament of the people in charge of NK, and the current delecate position, surely military **** waving by the yanks is the last thing the region needs.

[hypochondriac]

Sanctions and force - learn to read.

 

The Chinese don't seem to think the yanks military activity in the region are a great idea. Considering the temperament of the people in charge of NK, and the current delecate position, surely military **** waving by the yanks is the last thing the region needs.

Do you think that north Korea are likely to cease their provocative behaviour if America withdrew from the area? Or do you think it more likely that they would continue to build up their nuclear arsenal and continue to build up the narrative of America as the big evil bully and the cause of all their problems because it is in their interest to do so?

[Verbal]

Sanctions and force - learn to read.

 

The Chinese don't seem to think the yanks military activity in the region are a great idea. Considering the temperament of the people in charge of NK, and the current delecate position, surely military **** waving by the yanks is the last thing the region needs.

 

As I've said before, your debating style is the same as hypo's, which is to constantly shift the ground when the bit you were standing on crumbles.

 

I know you said 'and force'. My point was you lumped the two together, which is nonsensical. There are circumstances in which both may be necessary. But sanctions alone are a common instrument, used by the UN, among others, and also Russia.

 

It's also characteristic of the flaccid thinking and gullibility that comes from proximity to Corbynista virtue signallers that you'd quote Putin as a source of wisdom on this. That would be the same 'let's talk' Putin who invaded Ukraine, who supplied the not-so-independent 'rebels' with rockets to down passenger planes, and who engages routinely in targeted assassinations of political opponents.

 

Learn to think.

[hypochondriac]

I was agreeing with you verbal you massive dong.

[Kingsland Codger]

I wonder if you would think the same if, for example Russia started testing missiles over the UK ...

 

Must have freaked some Japanese residents out when the alarms rang etc.

 

My daughter lives in Hokkaido, more-or-less directly under the flight path of said missile. She emails to tell me she was awoken by her mobile phone sounding an alert which she assumed was for an earthquake as Japanese smartphones have an in-build alert for natural disasters. Shortly after this the town alert was broadcast over the tannoy with the population being told to go to the evacuation area or go to a concrete building. My daughter has a garage made of concrete so she went there and about 5 minutes later there was a stand-down/all-clear alert broadcast.

 

She says it was more confusing than scary with most of the neighbours grumbling about being woken up so early - but should it happen again then there may be more panic as the concept of a missile strike is now uppermost in people's thoughts.

 

My own fatherly instincts came out quite swiftly. She may be 32 years old but ... NOBODY UPSETS MY LITTLE GIRL! Mr Kim won't be getting a Christmas card from me. That'll teach him.

[aintforever]

As I've said before, your debating style is the same as hypo's, which is to constantly shift the ground when the bit you were standing on crumbles.

 

I know you said 'and force'. My point was you lumped the two together, which is nonsensical. There are circumstances in which both may be necessary. But sanctions alone are a common instrument, used by the UN, among others, and also Russia.

 

It's also characteristic of the flaccid thinking and gullibility that comes from proximity to Corbynista virtue signallers that you'd quote Putin as a source of wisdom on this. That would be the same 'let's talk' Putin who invaded Ukraine, who supplied the not-so-independent 'rebels' with rockets to down passenger planes, and who engages routinely in targeted assassinations of political opponents.

 

Learn to think.

 

Of course it's not nonsensical, if the US are trying to provoke a reaction from NK to legitimise regime change then they are going about it the right way - crippling sanctions (which won't harm the leaders, only the people - like Iraq) and military provocation.

 

Kim Jong-un is a nasty piece of work but I can't see what he has to gain by starting a war - like most dictators he is only interested in keeping hold of power and feathering his own nest. He has too much to lose by starting a war because he knows he will be finished and NK will end up as rubble. The danger comes when he has nothing to lose.

 

If the US's only concern is peace I fail to see the logic of military exercises on NK's doorstep at a time when tensions are so high - that's where I agree totally with China and Russia's stance.

Edited 31 August, 2017 by aintforever

[hypochondriac]

How would you handle it aintforever if you were America?