North Korea

[eurosaint]

Possibly in Pyongyang but as I'm sure you know that certainly is not a place which typifies north Korean life. Most defectors outside of Pyongyang (sadly a dwindling number nowadays) have spoken about openly defying officials without too much fear (see that leaked clip of a woman having a go at an official when she was criticised for her hair a few years ago for instance.) Have you read nothing to envy and the impossible state? They are eye opening reads and nothing to envy in particular talks about the burgeoning black market which is now essential to everyday life and as such the regime would never dream of shutting it down. Oh and if we are name dropping, Tom Matlock- the former head of the British embassy in Seoul - is an old friend.

 

Bold a) Read them both and many others !

Bold b) No, can't match a head of the British Embassy but my mate is a native Korean speaker and doesn't miss much !

 

Anyway I can tell that you have a good knowledge of the place and I'm sure that we would both like to see some positive changes sometime soon !

[shurlock]

What's a head of an embassy when it's at home? Never heard of the term. Heard of a head of mission which is an ambassador; but not head of embassy.

Edited 22 June, 2017 by shurlock

[buctootim]

Head of Trade section. Still a valuable, presumably informed opinion. I dont know anything about Korea.

Edited 22 June, 2017 by buctootim

[hypochondriac]

Bold a) Read them both and many others !

Bold b) No, can't match a head of the British Embassy but my mate is a native Korean speaker and doesn't miss much !

 

Anyway I can tell that you have a good knowledge of the place and I'm sure that we would both like to see some positive changes sometime soon !

Can certainly agree there. Thanks to whoever put up the financial times link, it was a good read and a neat summary of how much the country has changed since the 90s.

[shurlock]

Head of Trade section. Still a valuable, presumably informed opinion. I dont know anything about Korea.

 

Could well be. Most South Koreans I've met have a massive chip on their shoulder. But I guess that's not a surprise given the politics and history of the region.

Edited 22 June, 2017 by shurlock

[eurosaint]

Could well be. Most South Koreans I've met have a massive chip on their shoulder. But I guess that's not a surprise given the politics and history of the region.

 

I visited S.Korea about 3 times a year for more than 30 years (on business) and my view is the polar opposite of yours !

Polite, friendly, welcoming and loyal would sum up my feelings towards them !

The incredible contrast from where they were in 1974 (my first trip) until now, is nothing short of miraculous and is mainly due to their work ethic and desire to change their lives for the better !

[shurlock]

I visited S.Korea about 3 times a year for more than 30 years (on business) and my view is the polar opposite of yours !

Polite, friendly, welcoming and loyal would sum up my feelings towards them !

The incredible contrast from where they were in 1974 (my first trip) until now, is nothing short of miraculous and is mainly due to their work ethic and desire to change their lives for the better !

 

Guess I meant with respect to how they feel they're living in the shadow of Japan and China - that no matter how far they've come economically, they're not given their due which grates existentially. I've also had a tough time working with some South Koreans. Worked on a project for the World Bank (2011), funded by the KDI. It was very difficult to convince them that despite their funding, the project was not a branding exercise for the country as poster child for the rest of the developing world. Worse this was not just opportunism: they genuinely seemed to believe their own hype.

Edited 23 June, 2017 by shurlock

[doddisalegend]

Interesting little fluff piece

 

North Koreans' answer to this simple question offers a terrifying insight into how the government influences their daily lives

 

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/north-koreans-answer-to-this-simple-question-offers-a-terrifying-insight-into-how-the-government-influences-their-daily-lives/ss-BBD8YyS?ocid=spartandhp

[eurosaint]

Interesting little fluff piece

 

North Koreans' answer to this simple question offers a terrifying insight into how the government influences their daily lives

 

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/north-koreans-answer-to-this-simple-question-offers-a-terrifying-insight-into-how-the-government-influences-their-daily-lives/ss-BBD8YyS?ocid=spartandhp

 

The level of indoctrination is totally unprecedented, chilling and appalling !

Nobody behaves like this unless they are scared ****less and I'm afraid that when you read of the endless atrocities committed by the successive Kims it is totally understandable !

Incredibly sad !!

[Window Cleaner]

More provocation again this afternoon I see, missiles seem to get a bit closer to Japan each time. Crazy idiot will keep on until

he actually hits them perhaps just to see what will happen...

[aintforever]

Surely a sovereign nation is allowed to test their own weapons?

[Lighthouse]

One North Korea described his country as having a 'bright' future.

 

 

Well that's one way of putting it.

[capitalsaint]

Guess I meant with respect to how they feel they're living in the shadow of Japan and China - that no matter how far they've come economically, they're not given their due which grates existentially. I've also had a tough time working with some South Koreans. Worked on a project for the World Bank (2011), funded by the KDI. It was very difficult to convince them that despite their funding, the project was not a branding exercise for the country as poster child for the rest of the developing world. Worse this was not just opportunism: they genuinely seemed to believe their own hype.

 

Bit late to the party here, but I'd disagree with the shadow comment. Korea has a stellar reputation in Asia despite still being relatively unknown in the West. Koreans are proud of the country's rapid economic development (something even China has tried to learn from), while K-pop etc has permeated other Asian countries in the same way that American pop music has the rest of the world.

 

I've not ever come across a sense that Koreans feel they're living in the shadow of China or Japan, quite the opposite in fact. There could be an argument that some feel in the shadow of the U.S., but that's a different debate altogether.

[Whitey Grandad]

Surely a sovereign nation is allowed to test their own weapons?

 

Maybe, but they shouldn't test them on other nations.

[Jonnyboy]

Maybe, but they shouldn't test them on other nations.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/02/bikini-atoll-nuclear-test-60-years

[aintforever]

Maybe, but they shouldn't test them on other nations.

 

Just shot them in the sea I think.

[Saint86]

F*ckin bunch of hawks on here. Haven't you learned anything from Syria, Yemen, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Laos, most of Central America, Africa, Asia, Korea...? Seeing a pattern yet?

 

The better question is, have you?

 

This isn't about oil or resources. This is about a lunatic with nukes.

 

I'll put it another way. Does anyone think there is a viable scenario for the USA, which includes North Korean having nuclear missiles capable of hitting their main land?

 

*****

 

But more to the point, Russia has been massing troops along its north korean border, and across the eastern european border.

[aintforever]

The better question is, have you?

 

This isn't about oil or resources. This is about a lunatic with nukes.

 

I'll put it another way. Does anyone think there is a viable scenario for the USA, which includes North Korean having nuclear missiles capable of hitting their main land?

 

*****

 

But more to the point, Russia has been massing troops along its north korean border, and across the eastern european border.

 

North Korea has as much right as any other country to defend itself.

[Lighthouse]

North Korea has as much right as any other country to defend itself.

 

If you count an entire country living in poverty under the brutal oppression of a regime, which is hell-bent on building a nuclear warhead capable of hitting the USA; then yes.

 

Are you just being facetious here or do you genuinely believe that a dictatorship fanatically obsessed with nuclear weapons is doing no wrong?

[Whitey Grandad]

Just shot them in the sea I think.

 

So far they have. How long before one goes astray and hits Japan?

[aintforever]

If you count an entire country living in poverty under the brutal oppression of a regime, which is hell-bent on building a nuclear warhead capable of hitting the USA; then yes.

 

Are you just being facetious here or do you genuinely believe that a dictatorship fanatically obsessed with nuclear weapons is doing no wrong?

 

I don't agree with dictatorships but they are doing no wrong slimply by arming themselves.

[aintforever]

So far they have. How long before one goes astray and hits Japan?

 

The US and South Korea hold military exercises in that area all the time.

[hypochondriac]

North Korea has as much right as any other country to defend itself.

In what way is it defending itself?

[hypochondriac]

I don't agree with dictatorships but they are doing no wrong slimply by arming themselves.

And the computer attacks, kidnappings, incarcerations, torture, murder of their own people, smuggling, fraud etc etc. It's a whole lot more than simply arming themselves and it's naive in the extreme to imagine that's all they are doing.

[aintforever]

In what way is it defending itself?

 

How is a nuclear deterant not defending yourself?

[Lighthouse]

How is a nuclear deterant not defending yourself?

 

It's not so much of a deterant if you're using it to make megalomaniac threats against half of your neighbours and the US.

[aintforever]

It's not so much of a deterant if you're using it to make megalomaniac threats against half of your neighbours and the US.

 

The US has made threats to them as well - I suppose that is OK?

[Lighthouse]

The US has made threats to them as well - I suppose that is OK?

 

What an odd outlook on the situation. North Korea tortures tens of thousands of its own citizens to death in camps the Nazis would have been proud of, over the tiniest of indiscretions. You've seen what they did to Otto Warmbier for stealing a poster and you're okay with them building ICBM with nuclear warheads.

[hypochondriac]

How is a nuclear deterant not defending yourself?

And the threats of raining down fire on the US and South Korea as well as the racist insults against the likes of Obama?

[hypochondriac]

What an odd outlook on the situation. North Korea tortures tens of thousands of its own citizens to death in camps the Nazis would have been proud of, over the tiniest of indiscretions. You've seen what they did to Otto Warmbier for stealing a poster and you're okay with them building ICBM with nuclear warheads.

It's the bizarrest of bizarre outlooks to hate America and the west to the extent that you try to equate their actions to the monstrous regime in north Korea. America has their problems no doubt about it but it's not on the same planet as North Korea. Here is just one of many examples (read some books and see for yourself.)

 

 

Edit: I was referring to aintforever here.

[aintforever]

It's the bizarrest of bizarre outlooks to hate America and the west to the extent that you try to equate their actions to the monstrous regime in north Korea. America has their problems no doubt about it but it's not on the same planet as North Korea. Here is just one of many examples (read some books and see for yourself.)

 

 

Edit: I was referring to aintforever here.

 

I don't hate the US or the west, just don't see the point in all this military ****-waving. All it does is strengthen the position of the North Korean leader. The more the US threaten them the more they will see nukes as essential to their security.

 

I have read about NK and the leader is obviously a nasty brutal dictator, I don't agree in any way with how he runs the country. Like most dictators though his main concern seems to be keeping in power and feathering his own nest. They are going to get nukes eventually so we might be better off not pushing him into a corner.

 

How exactly do you think those US and South Korean War games are perceived by the North Koreans? Exactly how their missile test are.

[Jonnyboy]

And the threats of raining down fire on the US and South Korea as well as the racist insults against the likes of Obama?

 

If Kim is a racist why is he always having Dennis Rodman over for socials?

[hypochondriac]

If Kim is a racist why is he always having Dennis Rodman over for socials?

I wasn't referring to kim personally. North Korean media called Obama a monkey.

[Jonnyboy]

I wasn't referring to kim personally. North Korean media called Obama a monkey.

 

But Kim controls all aspects of the country.

[hypochondriac]

But Kim controls all aspects of the country.

No he doesn't, not by a long shot. It's those behind him that keep him there who are the real powerbrokers. Look at Kim's dad and how he sidelined his own father whilst he was still alive to see that.

[Lighthouse]

I don't hate the US or the west, just don't see the point in all this military ****-waving. All it does is strengthen the position of the North Korean leader. The more the US threaten them the more they will see nukes as essential to their security.

 

I have read about NK and the leader is obviously a nasty brutal dictator, I don't agree in any way with how he runs the country. Like most dictators though his main concern seems to be keeping in power and feathering his own nest. They are going to get nukes eventually so we might be better off not pushing him into a corner.

 

How exactly do you think those US and South Korean War games are perceived by the North Koreans? Exactly how their missile test are.

 

It's more than just cock waving. If someone was building nukes to aim at me, I'd be trying to do something about it too. Bear in mind the US has absolutely no motivation for a war on China's doorstep. There isn't even any oil there for the conspiracy theorists to get their knickers moist over.

[shurlock]

It's more than just cock waving. If someone was building nukes to aim at me, I'd be trying to do something about it too. Bear in mind the US has absolutely no motivation for a war on China's doorstep. There isn't even any oil there for the conspiracy theorists to get their knickers moist over.

 

The conspiracy theorists would claim that extending US influence on the Korean Peninsula is a way to contain China and block its rise.

[aintforever]

It's more than just cock waving. If someone was building nukes to aim at me, I'd be trying to do something about it too.

 

British politicians openly talk about Russia when discussing our nukes as apparently they are our main threat - surely the same applies to North Korea and the Yanks?

[eurosaint]

North Korea stands alone as a 'terrorist threat' which is not Islamist, nor directly at war with anyone else (yet) but the complete and utter contempt for the human rights of it's own people should not be ignored IMHO !

To watch a whole nation bow and scrape in such obviously fake public exhibitions is just not natural and confirms the abject, day to day fear under which they live !

Surely the Chinese must soon wake up to the fact that they are the only power which could change this situation before Trump loses his rag and dumps another Hiroshima bomb on the poor b@stards !!

[Verbal]

The conspiracy theorists would claim that extending US influence on the Korean Peninsula is a way to contain China and block its rise.

 

If the US wanted to contain China's rise, and its influence in the region, it (or rather Trump) wouldn't have knocked TTP on the head. So the conspiracy theorists are talking their usual ********.

[benjii]

So, if US or S. Korea strikes first China will apparently get stuck in on I'm so Ronery's side. If Ronery strikes first China will "stay neutral".

 

Principled.

[aintforever]

North Korea stands alone as a 'terrorist threat' which is not Islamist, nor directly at war with anyone else (yet) but the complete and utter contempt for the human rights of it's own people should not be ignored IMHO !

To watch a whole nation bow and scrape in such obviously fake public exhibitions is just not natural and confirms the abject, day to day fear under which they live !

Surely the Chinese must soon wake up to the fact that they are the only power which could change this situation before Trump loses his rag and dumps another Hiroshima bomb on the poor b@stards !!

 

Does having a poor record of Human rights make a country a terrorist threat then?

[hypochondriac]

Does having a poor record of Human rights make a country a terrorist threat then?

No but having thousands of missiles pointed directly at your nearest neighbour whilst sporadically attacking and killing citizens of your nearest neighbour along with nuclear tests and threats to use them in unprovoked attacks does make a country a terrorist threat.

[aintforever]

No but having thousands of missiles pointed directly at your nearest neighbour whilst sporadically attacking and killing citizens of your nearest neighbour along with nuclear tests and threats to use them in unprovoked attacks does make a country a terrorist threat.

 

Years of crippling sanctions could be classed as provocation to be fair. Lots of countries have lots of missiles pointed at each other, and they have tested their missiles as well.

[hypochondriac]

Years of crippling sanctions could be classed as provocation to be fair. Lots of countries have lots of missiles pointed at each other, and they have tested their missiles as well.

North Korea has secret underground tunnels giving them access to the south for an invasion, the largest forced Labour camps in the world, literally thousands of missiles pointed at their nearest neighbours and routinely discuss firing nuclear warheads at other nations. Do plenty of other countries do that? That's before you look at their horrendous human rights abuses, how they allowed a huge percentage of their people to starve to death in the 90s when most of their money went on the military, how they are responsible for numerous cyber attacks and frauds around the world, how they brainwash their citizens and how they refuse to let their people leave the country. I'm sorry but there simply isn't a sensible comparison to make between hugely flawed democracies like America and the horror of north Korea.

[aintforever]

North Korea has secret underground tunnels giving them access to the south for an invasion, the largest forced Labour camps in the world, literally thousands of missiles pointed at their nearest neighbours and routinely discuss firing nuclear warheads at other nations. Do plenty of other countries do that? That's before you look at their horrendous human rights abuses, how they allowed a huge percentage of their people to starve to death in the 90s when most of their money went on the military, how they are responsible for numerous cyber attacks and frauds around the world, how they brainwash their citizens and how they refuse to let their people leave the country. I'm sorry but there simply isn't a sensible comparison to make between hugely flawed democracies like America and the horror of north Korea.

 

I'm no supporter of the North Korean regime but from their point of view the US (who has a big history of invading other countries) is seen as a threat so whatever their human rights abuses they will see having nuclear weopons as essential for their defence. Given that the devided Korea is a product of the Cold War, and that US led sanctions has caused massive suffering to their people you can understand their hostility.

 

North Korea are going to end up with nukes sooner or later so maybe the best plan is to not give them a reason to want to use them. I can't see the point in pushing them into a corner, you can only push so far until they have nothing to lose by going to war.

[Jonnyboy]

North Korea has secret underground tunnels giving them access to the south for an invasion, the largest forced Labour camps in the world, literally thousands of missiles pointed at their nearest neighbours and routinely discuss firing nuclear warheads at other nations. Do plenty of other countries do that? That's before you look at their horrendous human rights abuses, how they allowed a huge percentage of their people to starve to death in the 90s when most of their money went on the military, how they are responsible for numerous cyber attacks and frauds around the world, how they brainwash their citizens and how they refuse to let their people leave the country. I'm sorry but there simply isn't a sensible comparison to make between hugely flawed democracies like America and the horror of north Korea.

 

It doesn't matter how many "secret tunnels" they have because you can bet the South Koreans, Chinese, US and everyone else know where they all are.

Their technology is sheite and they wouldn't last a week if the US did a full scale invasion.

To me, this all goes back to Bush's Axis of Evil speech. They've took out the leadership of Iraq and Libya. That leaves Iran and North Korea. I'm not sure they've made the world any safer although they have spilled a f*ck tonne of blood.

Apparently America and the west killed three million North Koreans in the 1950s in their paranoid vendetta against communism so what's a few million more between enemies.

Edited 11 August, 2017 by Jonnyboy

[buctootim]

Lefties needing to stop moaning and accept the will of the people. There was an election. People voted for it. We can make this a good war, a great war. We wont let the UN tell us what to do, be patriotic and nuke North Korea. We'll have a glowing future.

[Saint in Paradise]

The despots who are in control of NK abused their people by using starvation, imprisonment and revenge murders

long before any sanctions were put in place. It has been alleged by excellent sources that in the past food

sent for the poor ended up feeding the NK armed forces elite. Also it is alleged that the elite still manage to

freely obtain whatever food etc that they want with help from other countries who secretly ignore the sanctions

 

They almost started a war when they sank that small SK warship, they got away with it so now they are just

pushing harder to see what happens.

 

I can't make up my mind about China as to whether they are controlling this NK aggression or they are afraid

of NK and its lunatic Govt. NK missiles with a nuclear weapon could cause a lot of damage to China before

China could respond.

[Sheaf Saint]

I just watched the documentary on BBC2 about the assassination of Kim Jong Nam, simply because Kim Jong Un was paranoid about the idea that, as the eldest (though illegitimate) son of Kim Jong Il, he could pose a threat to the solidity of his leadership. Fascinating insight into a truly horrific ruling regime.

 

Also, I decided today to do a little reading into the history of Korea, and more specifically the Korean war in the early 50s that split the country into the two states, as I realise I know very little about it other than it being mainly a front for the wider conflict between the US and the Soviet Union. It's actually little wonder that NK hates America so much to this day, given that the USAF pretty much flattened the entire country with its bombing campaign.