North Korea

[Lighthouse]

How's this one going to play out then...

[Maggie May]

This: https://i.redd.it/3y2u2wn2htqy.jpg

[buctootim]

This: https://i.redd.it/3y2u2wn2htqy.jpg

 

Someone should take Donalds phone away

[Shroppie]

Someone should take Donalds phone away

Someone should take Donald away. Or out.

 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Manuel]

The people of DRNK are conditioned, even brainwashed, for sure. Who knows about Kim Jong Un though. Is he sound of mind?

 

It's Otto Warmbier I feel sorry for in all of this. I wonder what he's up to this morning.

[eurosaint]

The removal of the Kim dynasty would be a blessing to the North Korean people, however the cost in lives could be massive if there is nuclear fallout of any description (intentional or otherwise) !

I've read every known book on this despicable and unpredictable regime and have been to the south many times so although I desperately want things to change for them, I just can't see an easy way out !

The one thing that I do agree with Trump though is that the sooner something is done the better !

If the Chinese were to put humanity before economics then they could sort it reasonably peaceably but sadly that does not seem to be on the cards !

[Manuel]

The removal of the Kim dynasty would be a blessing to the North Korean people, however the cost in lives could be massive if there is nuclear fallout of any description (intentional or otherwise) !

I've read every known book on this despicable and unpredictable regime and have been to the south many times so although I desperately want things to change for them, I just can't see an easy way out !

The one thing that I do agree with Trump though is that the sooner something is done the better !

If the Chinese were to put humanity before economics then they could sort it reasonably peaceably but sadly that does not seem to be on the cards !

What's your guess on the fate of Warmbier. Initially I thought he'd be kept somewhere half decent, used as a bargaining tool and later released. Now I'm not sure Jong Un seems to have any interest in dialogue with the US. I fear Otto's in the gulag.

[Batman]

Someone should take Donald away. Or out.

 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

the people controlling NK are utterly barbaric.

only a matter of time before they are removed by the USA or even China

[shurlock]

the people controlling NK are utterly barbaric.

only a matter of time before they are removed by the USA or even China

 

Are they rational or irrational, though?

[hypochondriac]

Are they rational or irrational, though?

They know exactly what hey are doing. Kim is just the figurehead, it's the people behind him that hold the real power.

[aintforever]

I'm sure the people in charge are not very nice, I've read a few horror stories but it's impossible to now what is propaganda and what is fact.

 

Going to war would be lunacy and I'm not exactly sure what it would achieve - hundreds of thousands dead, and a country without a leader who hates American even more than it does now? I would just leave them alone, they are no threat to us.

[Batman]

I'm sure the people in charge are not very nice, I've read a few horror stories but it's impossible to now what is propaganda and what is fact.

 

Going to war would be lunacy and I'm not exactly sure what it would achieve - hundreds of thousands dead, and a country without a leader who hates American even more than it does now? I would just leave them alone, they are no threat to us.

 

would it be us going to war with the?

we can barely rub a few ships together as it is thanks to years of cutbacks

[hypochondriac]

I'm sure the people in charge are not very nice, I've read a few horror stories but it's impossible to now what is propaganda and what is fact.

 

Going to war would be lunacy and I'm not exactly sure what it would achieve - hundreds of thousands dead, and a country without a leader who hates American even more than it does now? I would just leave them alone, they are no threat to us.

I find this a strange attitude when they have death camps the size of california. Would you have only confronted Hitler when he became a threat to us? The world needs to use every methods available to them short of all out war to reduce the harm north Korea is doing. It's barbaric and wrong and on a much larger scale than the likes of IS

[OldNick]

A country bordering China on one side and an allie on the other is impossible to throw a nuke at. China for some reason have been shielding them for decades, where they get the means and technology to make their nukes is a concern

[eurosaint]

What's your guess on the fate of Warmbier. Initially I thought he'd be kept somewhere half decent, used as a bargaining tool and later released. Now I'm not sure Jong Un seems to have any interest in dialogue with the US. I fear Otto's in the gulag.

 

I reckon that firstly they will try to brainwash him (they are extremely good at this BTW) and if this doesn't work then he'll just rot in one of the gulags (probably no.7) with the other few hundred thousand poor souls !

I doubt that they'll let him go as he would be able to spill the beans on some of the atrocious behaviour of the state and that's the last thing that they want !

[eurosaint]

What's your guess on the fate of Warmbier. Initially I thought he'd be kept somewhere half decent, used as a bargaining tool and later released. Now I'm not sure Jong Un seems to have any interest in dialogue with the US. I fear Otto's in the gulag.

 

Herewith the end of his particular journey :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40335169

Very sad but inevitable, given the brutality of the Kim regime !

[Manuel]

Yes, one can only imagine what they did to him. I wonder if the results of the post mortem will be made public.

[hutch]

I find this a strange attitude when they have death camps the size of california. Would you have only confronted Hitler when he became a threat to us? The world needs to use every methods available to them short of all out war to reduce the harm north Korea is doing. It's barbaric and wrong and on a much larger scale than the likes of IS

...

Edited 20 June, 2017 by hutch
I didn't see it was an old thread

[buctootim]

I find this a strange attitude when they have death camps the size of california.....the harm north Korea is doing. It's barbaric and wrong and on a much larger scale than the likes of IS

What have you been reading?? California is nearly four times the size of the entire country.

[shurlock]

What have you been reading?? California is nearly four times the size of the entire country.

 

The David Davis Atlas of the World.

[hypochondriac]

What have you been reading?? California is nearly four times the size of the entire country.

It's a long time since I read the book to be fair but you get the point I was making. It's a vast area.

[Lighthouse]

Maybe I'm being massively naive here but supposing this did lead to war, which you would assume the US wins eventually. Where would that leave the country post war?

 

Could it be unified?

Would the Chinese tollerate it on the condition that all US troops eventually left the peninsula (including the South).

Would the population welcome a united Korea and see the US a liberators, or remain hostile?

How much of the population has been completely brainwashed and how many are just living silently in terror?

[shurlock]

Maybe I'm being massively naive here but supposing this did lead to war, which you would assume the US wins eventually. Where would that leave the country post war?

 

Could it be unified?

Would the Chinese tollerate it on the condition that all US troops eventually left the peninsula (including the South).

Would the population welcome a united Korea and see the US a liberators, or remain hostile?

How much of the population has been completely brainwashed and how many are just living silently in terror?

 

Depends how much of S.Korea hasn't been razed to rubble.

[eurosaint]

Maybe I'm being massively naive here but supposing this did lead to war, which you would assume the US wins eventually. Where would that leave the country post war?

 

Could it be unified?

Would the Chinese tollerate it on the condition that all US troops eventually left the peninsula (including the South).

Would the population welcome a united Korea and see the US a liberators, or remain hostile?

How much of the population has been completely brainwashed and how many are just living silently in terror?

 

Yes, it could be unified and the vast majority of the poor souls who have had to endure a pitiful existence under the Kims would welcome it, but inevitably there will be a high price to pay.

Many of the perpetrators of state sponsored torture and brainwashing would get their comeuppance and it will no doubt be as bloody as the demise of both Gaddaffi and Saddam Hussain !

Believe me, the adulation of their leaders which you see in public is a shocking facade and will crumble in days !

I just hope and pray that S. Korea and the Yanks are able to fend off any nuclear attack in it's infancy !

[Lighthouse]

Depends how much of S.Korea hasn't been razed to rubble.

 

That is an interesting question too. If the US can launch an effective first strike against their comms and ballistic missile sites, they can probably limit the damage to South Korean civilians. I can't imagine any of their ancient Soviet jets getting close to an F22, even if they did make it off the ground.

 

Perhaps I'm underestimating the enemy here but even with their manic obsession with the military, I can't imagine it being any more of a problem than Desert Storm was. Surely better now that waiting for them to build a functioning nuclear warhead.

[doddisalegend]

That is an interesting question too. If the US can launch an effective first strike against their comms and ballistic missile sites, they can probably limit the damage to South Korean civilians. I can't imagine any of their ancient Soviet jets getting close to an F22, even if they did make it off the ground.

 

Perhaps I'm underestimating the enemy here but even with their manic obsession with the military, I can't imagine it being any more of a problem than Desert Storm was. Surely better now that waiting for them to build a functioning nuclear warhead.

 

North Korea has was of the largest conventional tubed artillery forces in the world most of it dug into hardened bunkers and arranged along the border with the south a hell of a lot of it is also in range of Seoul. They'll lose any war (assuming the Chinese don't join in like they did last time around) but they can do a lot of damage to the south before they go down.

 

http://www.valuewalk.com/2017/06/north-korea-artillery-war/

 

North Korea's army is pretty antiquated though and most of their troops are barely feed (I think I read 500 calories a day in one report) so if the war goes on to long they will probably drop from sheer exhaustion and malnutrition

 

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/korea/lightens-01142015154111.html

[Lighthouse]

North Korea has was of the largest conventional tubed artillery forces in the world most of it dug into hardened bunkers and arranged along the border with the south a hell of a lot of it is also in range of Seoul. They'll lose any war (assuming the Chinese don't join in like they did last time around) but they can do a lot of damage to the south before they go down.

 

http://www.valuewalk.com/2017/06/north-korea-artillery-war/

 

North Korea's army is pretty antiquated though and most of their troops are barely feed (I think I read 500 calories a day in one report) so if the war goes on to long they will probably drop from sheer exhaustion and malnutrition

 

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/korea/lightens-01142015154111.html

 

Sounds like the Maginot line to me.

 

I also wonder how effective NK troops would be in combat. Despite their pathological obsession with conformity and obedience, have any of their armed forced seen actual combat? They've not actually fought anyone for over 60 years, how effective will an inexperienced, half starved army of borderline slaves actually be when a Tommahawk take out 90% of their comms and radar stations.

[hypochondriac]

Maybe I'm being massively naive here but supposing this did lead to war, which you would assume the US wins eventually. Where would that leave the country post war?

 

Could it be unified?

Would the Chinese tollerate it on the condition that all US troops eventually left the peninsula (including the South).

Would the population welcome a united Korea and see the US a liberators, or remain hostile?

How much of the population has been completely brainwashed and how many are just living silently in terror?

In the event of war then North Korea would be utterly destroyed but sadly so would Seoul. There is a lot of speculation about what would happen but the most likely scenario is the Chinese rush in from one side and the US and South Korea from the other, lines are drawn and we have a west and east Germany scenario. Not a chance will China just allow a nation who are best mates with America on their border without a fight.

[hypochondriac]

Yes, it could be unified and the vast majority of the poor souls who have had to endure a pitiful existence under the Kims would welcome it, but inevitably there will be a high price to pay.

Many of the perpetrators of state sponsored torture and brainwashing would get their comeuppance and it will no doubt be as bloody as the demise of both Gaddaffi and Saddam Hussain !

Believe me, the adulation of their leaders which you see in public is a shocking facade and will crumble in days !

I just hope and pray that S. Korea and the Yanks are able to fend off any nuclear attack in it's infancy !

It's definitely not something the south Koreans are much looking forward to. The general public view it as something inevitable but also somethibg to view with trepidation given the cultural differences and how much of a strain a flood of new "citizens" will put on the state. That's if there is much of South Korea left of course.

[hypochondriac]

Sounds like the Maginot line to me.

 

I also wonder how effective NK troops would be in combat. Despite their pathological obsession with conformity and obedience, have any of their armed forced seen actual combat? They've not actually fought anyone for over 60 years, how effective will an inexperienced, half starved army of borderline slaves actually be when a Tommahawk take out 90% of their comms and radar stations.

It's rumoured they have some secret tunnels and underground bunkers with weapons. They can probably do an extensive amount of damage to the south before they are stopped but I doubt they could reach America at the moment. To be honest it's probably better it comes to a head soon rather than in a few years when they may have perfected their nuclear technology abd the consequences of war are far more dire.

[Jonnyboy]

F*ckin bunch of hawks on here. Haven't you learned anything from Syria, Yemen, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Laos, most of Central America, Africa, Asia, Korea...? Seeing a pattern yet?

[hypochondriac]

F*ckin bunch of hawks on here. Haven't you learned anything from Syria, Yemen, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Laos, most of Central America, Africa, Asia, Korea...? Seeing a pattern yet?

Absolutely nobody wants war but how do you suggest we solve the north Korean problem? Particularly when you consider they are fast developing their nuclear capabilities and will most likely have a fully operational icbm if we wait a few more years. It's abundantly clear to anyone with even a passing knowledge of the DPRK that they only play at diplomacy to try to extract as much as they can with absolutely no intention of denuclearisation. Given that fact and also that China- the only power capable of ending the war tomorrow would never do so because they'd rather have them on their doorstep than the US- what would you do?

[Lighthouse]

F*ckin bunch of hawks on here. Haven't you learned anything from Syria, Yemen, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Laos, most of Central America, Africa, Asia, Korea...? Seeing a pattern yet?

 

Neville Chamberlain?

[Jonnyboy]

Absolutely nobody wants war but how do you suggest we solve the north Korean problem? Particularly when you consider they are fast developing their nuclear capabilities and will most likely have a fully operational icbm if we wait a few more years. It's abundantly clear to anyone with even a passing knowledge of the DPRK that they only play at diplomacy to try to extract as much as they can with absolutely no intention of denuclearisation. Given that fact and also that China- the only power capable of ending the war tomorrow would never do so because they'd rather have them on their doorstep than the US- what would you do?

 

Same as people have been fear mongering about Iran for decades. Obama's administration plus global diplomacy seems to have de-escalated that situation. You negotiate successfully with some sort of gentle ultimatimum that nuclear weapons would be a red line. Even Kim isn't so mental that he wants his whole country vaporised.

[doddisalegend]

F*ckin bunch of hawks on here. Haven't you learned anything from Syria, Yemen, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Laos, most of Central America, Africa, Asia, Korea...? Seeing a pattern yet?

 

they are all places run by despots who like murdering their own citizens?

[eurosaint]

Same as people have been fear mongering about Iran for decades. Obama's administration plus global diplomacy seems to have de-escalated that situation. You negotiate successfully with some sort of gentle ultimatimum that nuclear weapons would be a red line. Even Kim isn't so mental that he wants his whole country vaporised.

 

Kim Jong Un is totally mental, he believes his own publicity as did his predecessors and yes, he would rather see his country vapourised than relinquish power !

Different situation to the ones you mention and (with a heavy heart) it needs sorting!

I mentioned before about my association with the South and desperately want to avoid a bloodbath but the longer it goes on, the more that the people suffer !

We ignore at our peril !

[Saint in Paradise]

The only country that can solve the NK/SK problem is China. Snag is that the only country in that region who doesn't appear

to want to find a peaceful settlement is China.They seem to like the little fat one annoying the U.S. with nothing happening against

NK. One day soon however they might realise what a big mistake this is as the U.S. will finally lose their present self control.

 

Someone mentioned Obama and Iran.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/11740268/Iran-nuclear-deal-The-special-relationship-between-John-Kerry-and-Mohammad-Javad-Zarif.html

 

So IF all sides want to solve problems it is possible without War but alas it must be All sides and I don't think that is the case with NK at the moment.

[eurosaint]

The only country that can solve the NK/SK problem is China. Snag is that the only country in that region who doesn't appear

to want to find a peaceful settlement is China.They seem to like the little fat one annoying the U.S. with nothing happening against

NK. One day soon however they might realise what a big mistake this is as the U.S. will finally lose their present self control.

 

Totally agree, no idea why the Chinese have not at least tried to sort them out. They would surely be affected big time if it kicked off in other ways !

Maybe their inaction is purely for economic reasons but (in the whole scheme of things) this could only improve in the longer term !

[hypochondriac]

Same as people have been fear mongering about Iran for decades. Obama's administration plus global diplomacy seems to have de-escalated that situation. You negotiate successfully with some sort of gentle ultimatimum that nuclear weapons would be a red line. Even Kim isn't so mental that he wants his whole country vaporised.

Firstly Kim Jong Un isn't mental at all. The country is actually run by people behind the scenes with him as the figurehead. It's a well oiled machine who likes to push the West as far as they can without actually going over the edge to war. One thing they will definitely not do is be seen to back down. In that respect thru are entirely different from Iran. The sunshine policy and other diplomatic efforts have been tried for years and the situation has only got worse. They pride themselves on their philosophy of "juche" which is about self sufficiency so they won't be influenced by diplomacy in the same way that Iran was. I genuinely think they are a lost cause.

[hypochondriac]

Kim Jong Un is totally mental, he believes his own publicity as did his predecessors and yes, he would rather see his country vapourised than relinquish power !

Different situation to the ones you mention and (with a heavy heart) it needs sorting!

I mentioned before about my association with the South and desperately want to avoid a bloodbath but the longer it goes on, the more that the people suffer !

We ignore at our peril !

He really isn't mental. The people who run north Korea know exactly what they are doing and no doubt privately they know they would not be able to win any war. It's in their interest to stay in a perpetual state of almost war as it acts as a distraction to their citizens and essentially. Gives them something to do. If it came down to it though and they were really desperate then I think they would choose to fight rather than appear weak. It's a terrible state of affairs.

[hypochondriac]

The only country that can solve the NK/SK problem is China. Snag is that the only country in that region who doesn't appear

to want to find a peaceful settlement is China.They seem to like the little fat one annoying the U.S. with nothing happening against

NK. One day soon however they might realise what a big mistake this is as the U.S. will finally lose their present self control.

 

Totally agree, no idea why the Chinese have not at least tried to sort them out. They would surely be affected big time if it kicked off in other ways !

Maybe their inaction is purely for economic reasons but (in the whole scheme of things) this could only improve in the longer term !

It's economic but also as I mentioned strategically it makes a hell of a lot of sense to have a whacky neighbour on their border than a best mate of the United States. It's in their interest to keep the kim dynasty alive for as long as possible because the alternative to Chinese eyes is worse.

[hypochondriac]

Short of a nuclear war, most experts believe the North Korean problem would most likely be solved by some sort of uprising amongst the people. Since the famine of the 90s there has been much looser controls typified by a growing black market that would have been forbidden beforehand but is now tolerated across the country. Technological advances have made it impossible for the party to have total control and the general North Korean public outside of pyeongyang are no longer the innocents blind to the outside world that they used to be- most have seen South Korean soap operas, listened to broadcasts from the south made by defectors or watched western films like titanic that have been smuggled over on usb sticks or flown over the dmz by balloon. An uprising would be the best outcome possible but it could only really happen from inside pyeongyang since the rest of the country wouldn't have the resources or the ability. That's definitely an initiative I would support though, particularly if it avoided all out war.

Edited 21 June, 2017 by hypochondriac

[Convict Colony]

Just finished Dear Reader: The Unauthorized Autobiography of Kim Jong Il which is excellent and is based on the propaganda from books smuggled out of N Korea.

 

Gives a great insight into the mentality of the leadership etc and how it got from WW2 to Kim Jong Il and his sons (briefly mentioning Kim Jong Un/ Nam and the "effeminate" sic. one)

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00I4GJFRQ/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

[eurosaint]

He really isn't mental. The people who run north Korea know exactly what they are doing and no doubt privately they know they would not be able to win any war. It's in their interest to stay in a perpetual state of almost war as it acts as a distraction to their citizens and essentially. Gives them something to do. If it came down to it though and they were really desperate then I think they would choose to fight rather than appear weak. It's a terrible state of affairs.

 

I suppose that 'mental' might not be the right word but given the extreme (and false) adoration he receives it is reasonable to assume that he is so far up his own arse that he has disappeared!

The fear factor which affects 3 family generations is all consuming and has been going for so long that I fear that uprising is nigh on impossible !

I still reckon that the Chinese are the key to the solution and God forbid that Trump goes in 'all guns blazing' !

[Jonnyboy]

they are all places run by despots who like murdering their own citizens?

 

Interventions that haven't helped and resulted in massive increases in civilian deaths.

[Lighthouse]

Interventions that haven't helped and resulted in massive increases in civilian deaths.

 

What about Germany, Italy, Japan and the Balkans.

[hypochondriac]

I suppose that 'mental' might not be the right word but given the extreme (and false) adoration he receives it is reasonable to assume that he is so far up his own arse that he has disappeared!

The fear factor which affects 3 family generations is all consuming and has been going for so long that I fear that uprising is nigh on impossible !

I still reckon that the Chinese are the key to the solution and God forbid that Trump goes in 'all guns blazing' !

That isn't the picture that many paint of the general public in North Korea. Of course that form of punishment exists but in general there is a growing indifference to the rules, which started after the famine of the 90s. The average north Korean knows that unless they are in serious trouble they can just bribe themselves out of any serious charges.

[eurosaint]

That isn't the picture that many paint of the general public in North Korea. Of course that form of punishment exists but in general there is a growing indifference to the rules, which started after the famine of the 90s. The average north Korean knows that unless they are in serious trouble they can just bribe themselves out of any serious charges.

 

My South Korean friend who now lives in the States was in Pyongyang 2 years ago and told me categorically that fear is still the overriding factor of daily life there !

While it is true that a certain amount of private enterprise has sprung up (purely out of desperation), it can be taken away on the whim of a local official, particularly as it is still classed as illegal.

I have read virtually every book on life in the North and (sadly), do not detect any sign of an internal uprising !

[hypochondriac]

My South Korean friend who now lives in the States was in Pyongyang 2 years ago and told me categorically that fear is still the overriding factor of daily life there !

While it is true that a certain amount of private enterprise has sprung up (purely out of desperation), it can be taken away on the whim of a local official, particularly as it is still classed as illegal.

I have read virtually every book on life in the North and (sadly), do not detect any sign of an internal uprising !

Possibly in Pyongyang but as I'm sure you know that certainly is not a place which typifies north Korean life. Most defectors outside of Pyongyang (sadly a dwindling number nowadays) have spoken about openly defying officials without too much fear (see that leaked clip of a woman having a go at an official when she was criticised for her hair a few years ago for instance.) Have you read nothing to envy and the impossible state? They are eye opening reads and nothing to envy in particular talks about the burgeoning black market which is now essential to everyday life and as such the regime would never dream of shutting it down. Oh and if we are name dropping, Tom Matlock- the former head of the British embassy in Seoul - is an old friend.

Edited 22 June, 2017 by hypochondriac

[shurlock]

Possibly in Pyongyang but as I'm sure you know that certainly is not a place which typifies north Korean life. Most defectors outside of Pyongyang (sadly a dwindling number nowadays) have spoken about openly defying officials without too much fear (see that leaked clip of a woman having a go at an official when she was criticised for her hair a few years ago for instance.) Have you read nothing to envy and the impossible state? They are eye opening reads and nothing to envy in particular talks about the burgeoning black market which is now essential to everyday life and as such the regime would never dream of shutting it down. Oh and if we are name dropping, Tom Matlock- the former head of the British embassy in Seoul - is an old friend.

 

Agree. Good article in yesterday's FT on this:

 

https://www.ft.com/content/db738fb8-3ed2-11e7-82b6-896b95f30f58

 

#friendsinhighplaces