Luke Shaw's stalled development. What does it say about our academy?

[Colinjb]

Seeing Luke Shaw's struggles and Mourinho's comments about 'doing his thinking for him,' I'm wondering about his time here after coming through from the academy.

 

He was clearly a massive step up from Danny Fox, even at 17. As such a raw kid though he did make mistakes. Away at Wigan his poor positioning let them in for a very late equaliser. At Stoke in that insane 3-3 game, he was found wanting a few times in his decision making but his energy levels/fitness helped him recover.

 

Physically he reminded me of a young Wayne Rooney. Stocky, strong and ahead of his years. His technical ability is superb and he looked to really be something exceptional in the environment here. An environment that moulded him from a young age, where he knew what he needed to do.

 

Without wishing to be too condescending or judgemental. Could it be that he cannot flourish without the kind of constant guidance and nurture he previously had? An article on the BBC shows Gary Neville hinting as nerves being an issue... but could it be something more fundamental, maybe in Luke himself?

 

If it isn't then it's a damning indictment of Manchester United's coaching structure and environment. Which, I am frankly more inclined to believe.

 

So, to conclude why can one of the 'biggest clubs' in the world' not match our standards?

 

Or is our Luke just a bit thick?

Edited 6 April, 2017 by Colinjb

[saintwbu]

I think it's always been pretty clear he isn't the brightest, but then plenty of footballers aren't. He seems very much like an 'arm round the shoulder' type of player and he certainly isn't playing for a manager who is likely to do that, so in my opinion it is definitely in his best interests to get out of there as soon as possible like De Bruyne and Lukaku both did at Chelsea. Get out to a 'smaller' club, get back to the top of his game and a big club will come calling further down the line when he has matured a bit. Funnily enough, that wing back role at Chelsea would be ideal but I can't see them buying him as Alonso has been brilliant all season.

[Shance]

He was doing really well for them before his injury. He was their best player. That injury though can effect people mentally. He may not have recovered.

[pluto]

Im pretty sure his nickhame was 'dippy' here

 

Criticism from Mourinho was way over the top and should be done behind closed doors anyway.

[DuncanRG]

Don't think it says much at all about us. Between the injuries, treatment by coaches and pressure of the move he's well removed from his circumstances with us. Shame to see.

[Micky]

He's a kid, with the full glare of the media upon him, set there by the man who really should be protecting him. Situation not helped by some pundits (with united connections) happy to add to the criticism he has already received. Most people would find that hard to deal with.

 

Personally I feel for the lad - let's face it, he is a very good footballer, suffered an horrific injury and now struggling to regain his form. I think he's a bit of an 'easy target' and is currently being used as a bit of a 'deflector shield', perhaps to mask others shortcomings. I wonder where the agent is now, you know, the one who was advising him that a United move would be a good idea.

[S-Clarke]

He personally moved way, way, way too soon. I'm sure even he can see that now.

 

But 100k p/w and £32m our way, there wasn't really a doubt.

[VectisSaint]

It doesn't say much about us, but illustrates that when you are at clubs like Man U or Chelsea, there is not the support there to help your improvement. If you are bought by clubs of this ilk you are expected to already be the complete player, managers like Mourinho are not particularly talented at coaching young, inexperienced players, they don't need to be, they get them ready-made. Shaw made the move too early, as did a few of the others who jumped ship, they get the money at the big clubs but not the development that they still need.

[Dusic]

He personally moved way, way, way too soon. I'm sure even he can see that now.

 

But 100k p/w and £32m our way, there wasn't really a doubt.

He moved too soon in that he was and maybe still is an immature person mentally who happened to physically mature at an early stage and be a very talented footballer.

 

He was not someone who would easily adapt to joining a massive club. His relationship with Pochettino was excellent and going from that to a cold style from Van Gaal and then Mourinho was not ideal for him.

 

As a player he was worth the money at the time, his performances were excellent for us, hence the attention he received.

 

For a player of that age his footballing maturity was very evident early on in terms of how he used his body defensively to lean into attackers and his decision making on the ball was sound. This recent episode IMO is Mourinho justifying why he has cold shouldered him despite relatively poor results. Mourinho tried to sign him for Chelsea so clearly his appauling knowledge of the game wasnt an issue then, nor was it when he bossed the left side for us, got called up to the WC squad etc.

 

Shaw will come again, hopefully gets a good move this summer.

 

To the OP: it shows why our club is good for young players in that it supports them in the first team setup rather than berate them. It also shows why Pochettino is the best Manager around IMO. The worst thing for Shaw is the subsequent Managers he has played for.

[Maggie May]

The injury hasn't helped. Feel sorry for the lad, tbh.

[adrian lord]

An article on the BBC shows Gary Neville hinting as nerves being an issue... but could it be something more fundamental, maybe in Luke himself?

 

? ::

 

"Nerves" are, I would have thought, "in Luke himself" and a fundamental aspect of one's disposition.

 

If he is disposed to anxiety and crises of confidence, then the likes of Mourinho and van Gaal and the Man U milieu in general will have been experienced as non-nurturing, almost frankly hostile.

 

Poor bugger made a "good" but wrong choice of club.

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Latheal]

Still remember his dad's tweet when Cortese left - "Southampton, what have you done?". Said it all to me at the time, the players had bought into Cortese, not the club. And to be honest, I understood at the time where he was coming from, there was a lot of us that felt the same way.

 

He should be England's first choice left back by now. Would he have benefitted from staying at Saints? Quite probably, but then we wouldn't have been able to have invest in the team as much as we have. How many of us, knowing what we know now, would sell Shaw for £30mil and buy Bertrand for £10mil? And not have to pay him £100K a week either.

 

I'm hoping (probably stupidly) that those who have sat on the bench at the "bigger" clubs or been loaned out, now see the benefit of week in, week out football. Its why I think both Bertrand and Romeu would probably choose to stay here than move this summer, given the chance.

 

Having said that, he left in the right way (to me) and I wish him no ill. He should be England's first choice left back by now. The vilification from Jose is bordering on scandalous; strange how he's attacked a young English left back who has hardly played this season and is coming back from a horrific injury, yet his record signing at a similar age gets a nice hug and a nice arm around the shoulder, despite having been one the biggest waste of £90mil since the Batman and Robin film. Hasn't he got that round the wrong way? And Jose, didn't you also try and buy him for £30mil when you were at Chelsea?

[doddisalegend]

He needs a coach who gets the best out of young players and nurtures them not a ****, with an ego the size of a small country, trying to cover up his own short comings buy hanging Luke out to dry. Poch or Puel would be ideal for him wonder if he'd come back to saints if Bertrand dumps us for man city..

[Patrick Bateman]

Mourinho is just a massive c*ck. Look at Rashford as well and his record of getting rid of Chelsea's youth (which we and other clubs have benefited from). I can't stand the man, he's an utter bellend, a hideous bore with a dreadful record of developing youth players and I'm fed up with the media sucking him off.

[Horley CTFC Saint]

Mourinho is just a massive c*ck. Look at Rashford as well and his record of getting rid of Chelsea's youth (which we and other clubs have benefited from). I can't stand the man, he's an utter bellend, a hideous bore with a dreadful record of developing youth players and I'm fed up with the media sucking him off.

 

And he also seems to be permanently on the brink of cracking up!

[Toomer]

Mourinho is the Portuguese saggy chops only interested in buying success not bringing on youngsters.

[Winnersaint]

Or is our Luke just a bit thick?

 

Heard this, but just think that injury has set him back. Mourinho is a self centred p-r-i-c-k which does Shaw no favours. Injury was about as bad as it can get. not quite on the Dave Buust level but think Lawrence Taylor on Joe Theismann and you begin to get the picture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mznBvAGScdg

Edited 6 April, 2017 by Winnersaint

[Disco Stu]

Perhaps Mourinho is giving Shaw an ultimatum to snap him out of his mental block? "Stop being so tentative or play somewhere else".

 

Either that or he's a c***

[Gemmel]

Hmmmm One of the worlds most successful EVER managers at multiple clubs is a bell end, because he has heaped some pressure and criticisms of one of our former players.

 

Luke Shaw is a smashing player, but is not meeting the standards required of his boss. It's nothing more than that.

[UpweySaint]

Hmmmm One of the worlds most successful EVER managers at multiple clubs is a bell end, because he has heaped some pressure and criticisms of one of our former players.

 

Luke Shaw is a smashing player, but is not meeting the standards required of his boss. It's nothing more than that.

 

Not meeting standards maybe, plenty in a Utd shirt aren't. He is a young man being used publicly as a punching bag, rather pathetic from Jose (no matter how much success he has had).

[Gemmel]

Not meeting standards maybe, plenty in a Utd shirt aren't. He is a young man being used publicly as a punching bag, rather pathetic from Jose (no matter how much success he has had).

 

Sorry mate - Couldn't disagree more. He went for a "Big boys transfer fee" and on "Big Boys wages". Now he is being treated like a "Big Boy".

 

The message from Jose is quite simple; Shape up or ship out.

 

He's at a level and club that take no prisoners, regardless of age. That's what he signed up for. That's what comes with £100k a week wages.

 

He won't last there, he will move on and ironically will make some more money out of it and the whole sequence could start over again.

[LeBizzier69]

Mourinho is just a massive c*ck. Look at Rashford as well and his record of getting rid of Chelsea's youth (which we and other clubs have benefited from). I can't stand the man, he's an utter bellend, a hideous bore with a dreadful record of developing youth players and I'm fed up with the media sucking him off.

 

Couldn't agree more. No idea why the British media fawn all over him, especially when he's pretty much detested overseas. Utter weapon.

[cellone]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/luke-shaw-jose-mourinho-manchester-united-latest-news-a7669436.html

 

Luke's piped up.

[UpweySaint]

Sorry mate - Couldn't disagree more. He went for a "Big boys transfer fee" and on "Big Boys wages". Now he is being treated like a "Big Boy".

 

The message from Jose is quite simple; Shape up or ship out.

 

He's at a level and club that take no prisoners, regardless of age. That's what he signed up for. That's what comes with £100k a week wages.

 

He won't last there, he will move on and ironically will make some more money out of it and the whole sequence could start over again.

 

Okay fair point but he is still 21 and has already came back from an injury that can easily end a career.

 

I would suggest Jose is not treating him in much the same way as others. Has Pogba been up to much this season? No. Jose praises him to the hilt. Has Rooney? God no! Still gets treated with respect. Rashford has not scored since September and is still golden boy...

 

If he really thinks Shaw is lazy, inept etc and would benefit from being called out then show some class and do so behind closed doors. A bit of decency is not too much to hope for. No matter what Shaw is earning, which club he is at or how good Jose may or may not be there is no need to be a complete c*ckwomble.

[the saint in winchester]

I'm surprised the PFA haven't got involved. Mourinho's treatment of Shaw is bullying and harrassment legally. Surely there is a process they can invoke to either protect the player or restrain the manager? It's like Mourinho is allowed to beat him up every couple of days; we all shake our heads in disbelief yet it continues unabated. I know Jose is under stress with the magnitude of his job and being estranged from his family but publicly verbally assaulting a young employee is out of order and should be censured.

[John Boy Saint]

Sorry mate - Couldn't disagree more. He went for a "uBig boys transfer fee" and on "Big Boys wages". Now he is being treated like a "Big Boy".

 

The message from Jose is quite simple; Shape up or ship out.

 

He's at a level and club that take no prisoners, regardless of age. That's what he signed up for. That's what comes with £100k a week wages.

 

He won't last there, he will move on and ironically will make some more money out of it and the whole sequence could start over again.

Spot on, as I said elsewhere when Man U spend big they expect the player to be complete and self maintaining, his Mum and Dad got their knickers in a twist because they felt poor little Luke was getting no support and being left all on his own to fend for himself. £27m + and talk about being on c £400k per week, in any other business on that kind of outlay they own your backside and expect a return.

That said Mrs Martial did not like it here because there was no support from the club, he has fizzled out too.

 

It has nowt to do with our academy, him, and Morgan for that matter, have gone from being bigish fish in a small pond, to just smaller fish in a big lake......... if anything they have been let down by their Agents and advisors for not looking after their investment.

[igsey]

He was playing really really well for United before that double-leg break, one of their best players and fans were pleased to finally have a reliable LB. Then the injury happened, and we all know he didn't have a great diet in the first place but he was suddenly unable to burn thousands of calories a day in training. He put on weight, lost fitness, and then the Portuguese nob came in who isn't exactly known for his positive man-management and has left him out in the cold, as he so often does. Luke needs to get out of there to a more nurturing club.

 

If United have any sense they'd send him on loan to West Brom or Bournemouth or Leicester. I can see Spurs coming in with a low bid in summer (though Rose is in the way). Poch got the most out of him and I'm sure Luke would be keen to be under him again.

[Super_Uwe]

I think if United were properly in the hunt for the title, you wouldn't be hearing this story in the media and it would be kept in-house.

 

I think it's a lot easier to chuck someone like Shaw "in front of the bus" rather than look at the club's own failings - am struggling to see exactly how they have improved drastically from Van Gaal's reign. That must be pretty embarrassing for their management team.

 

I am sure if he had his time again he would have stayed put with Saints for a few years. But you can't blame him for making the move.

[simo]

I think it says "you should have stayed for a year or two longer Luke"

[Saint Billy]

It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools.

[captainchris]

Seeing Luke Shaw's struggles and Mourinho's comments about 'doing his thinking for him,' I'm wondering about his time here after coming through from the academy.

 

He was clearly a massive step up from Danny Fox, even at 17. As such a raw kid though he did make mistakes. Away at Wigan his poor positioning let them in for a very late equaliser. At Stoke in that insane 3-3 game, he was found wanting a few times in his decision making but his energy levels/fitness helped him recover.

 

Physically he reminded me of a young Wayne Rooney. Stocky, strong and ahead of his years. His technical ability is superb and he looked to really be something exceptional in the environment here. An environment that moulded him from a young age, where he knew what he needed to do.

 

Without wishing to be too condescending or judgemental. Could it be that he cannot flourish without the kind of constant guidance and nurture he previously had? An article on the BBC shows Gary Neville hinting as nerves being an issue... but could it be something more fundamental, maybe in Luke himself?

 

If it isn't then it's a damning indictment of Manchester United's coaching structure and environment. Which, I am frankly more inclined to believe.

 

So, to conclude why can one of the 'biggest clubs' in the world' not match our standards?

 

Or is our Luke just a bit thick?

 

Unfortunate a 'massive step up from Danny Fox' is not a compliment....

Danny Fox is without a shadow of a doubt the worse left back we have had in the post 60s era.

Shaw was only 17 so he is expected to make a few mistakes, however he was obviously very competent and destined to be a fine player.

Moving to Man U the expectations are enormous and being wanted by them would turn some players heads - did it turn Shaw's ? Maybe it did and now being a mature player he is given no quarter and has to produce form and quality to play which is sometimes the difference between at team like us the top six which brings me back to Danny Fox in a convenient way..... A player who mistakenly thought he was good and was actually very poor but somehow got into our team....

[captainchris]

I'm surprised the PFA haven't got involved. Mourinho's treatment of Shaw is bullying and harrassment legally. Surely there is a process they can invoke to either protect the player or restrain the manager? It's like Mourinho is allowed to beat him up every couple of days; we all shake our heads in disbelief yet it continues unabated. I know Jose is under stress with the magnitude of his job and being estranged from his family but publicly verbally assaulting a young employee is out of order and should be censured.

No..... not true.... I pay you big money you perform or else.....

Fair is fair..... You come the biggest club in the country you better expect to be good enough or accept critism....

[UpweySaint]

No..... not true.... I pay you big money you perform or else.....

Fair is fair..... You come the biggest club in the country you better expect to be good enough or accept critism....

 

There is constructive criticism face to face then there is hanging out to dry in public because you're under performing and looking to pass the buck.

[captainchris]

There is constructive criticism face to face then there is hanging out to dry in public because you're under performing and looking to pass the buck.

 

Yes true, however if 'constructive' has been tried with no response and you would expect it has been then the stick has to be resorted to in the end.

[simo]

Heard today on the radio the meeting with Jose ,Shaw and his family for talks about signing for Chelsea 3 years or so ago went badly ,lasted less than 15 minutes and was cut short !

[doddisalegend]

Heard today on the radio the meeting with Jose ,Shaw and his family for talks about signing for Chelsea 3 years or so ago went badly ,lasted less than 15 minutes and was cut short !

 

 

I seem to remember Jose having a rant about how much Luke Shaw was demanding in wages when Shaw went to utd and jose was still Chelsea boss. It seemed an odd thing for him to be upset about the time but makes more sense in the context of your post. I imagine once you've bruised the special ones ego you are on his s h i t list for life.

[southamptonfc]

Do yourself a favor and don't pay any attention to what Mourinho says. He's borderline crazy. Let the media and everyone else lap it up and get on with something useful.

[richard]

Doesn't say anything about our academy at all. Reflects badly on Mourinho's man management that he picks out a juniorish member of the team for criticism. Teams should win together and lose together.

[Mr Biscuits]

Fergie said he moved too soon, that says it all for me.

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

Fergie said he moved too soon, that says it all for me.

 

This.

 

It says nothing about our academy, it says more about ****house agents and players being greedy and trying to run before they can walk.

[stockportsaint]

Heard this, but just think that injury has set him back. Mourinho is a self centred p-r-i-c-k which does Shaw no favours. Injury was about as bad as it can get. not quite on the Dave Buust level but think Lawrence Taylor on Joe Theismann and you begin to get the picture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mznBvAGScdg

 

I've never seen that footage before. Truly horrendous. Did Theismann ever play again?

[Wes Tender]

Unfortunate a 'massive step up from Danny Fox' is not a compliment....

Danny Fox is without a shadow of a doubt the worse left back we have had in the post 60s era.

 

You've obviously forgotten about Lee Todd.

[Mosin]

I think it's just Mourinho creating a situation where he either blame the player or praise himself for the progress. Fact is, Shaw was an excellent premier league defender and looked very good at times for them too, then got injured. Whether there's any truth in Mourinho not liking him due to rejecting Chelsea I don't know, but he does seem to fall out with a lot of good players. Treatment of Schweinsteiger was ridiculous. Never picking Schneiderlin bizarre when they needed a defensive midfielder. There they are looking for a Carrick replacement and they sell Schneiderlin to Everton.

 

Add it to Lukaku, De Bruyne, Mata. Did he fall out with and sell people at Inter and Real??

 

Shaw will be fine. He's better off elsewhere if he doesn't play each week though. Funny how stalled development is usually just not playing, rather than playing badly. If Man City sign Rose Spurs will get Shaw. Pochettino will play him too.

 

Looking forward to Utd spending another £200m this summer and still not winning the league. Really pathetic the side they'd produced on all that money but I can't deny I'm enjoying seeing them fail after that cup final.

 

 

 

 

 

U do know Chelsea showed Shaw the door for his silly wage demands that was higher than some of the big stars that was already playing at chelsea?

 

 

“If we pay to a 19-year-old boy what we were being asked for, to sign Luke Shaw, we are dead,” he said. “We would have killed our stability with financial fair play and killed the stability in our dressing room.

 

“Because when you pay that much to a 19-year-old kid – a good player, fantastic player – but when you pay that amount of money, the next day, we would have had players knocking on our door.

 

“They would have been saying, ‘How is it possible I play 200 games for this club, won this and that, yet a 19-year-old comes here and gets more money than I get?’

 

“It would’ve killed immediately our balance and we couldn’t allow that. I don’t criticise another club for paying it. They can pay what they want. I don’t have any comment about it. But for my club we can say it would be very negative for us, especially when we can say Felipe is much less expensive. Sometimes you have to make decisions.”

[Charlie Wayman]

Don't think it says much at all about us. Between the injuries, treatment by coaches and pressure of the move he's well removed from his circumstances with us. Shame to see.

 

This really, he was a advised to stay here a bit longer for his personal development and that's what he should have done but greed seems to have got the better of him. Now he's finding out the hard way that it's a tough nasty world out there when you leave the safe refuge of home and you'd better be ready for that. Obviously he wasn't and that's a shame but tough luck, he made his own bed and so he must lie in it but he probably won't end up at Accrington Stanley.

[Saints foreva]

Unfortunate a 'massive step up from Danny Fox' is not a compliment....

Danny Fox is without a shadow of a doubt the worse left back we have had in the post 60s era.

 

Bit harsh. He was quality in our promotion season, getting plenty of assists from LB. He just wasn't cut out for the Premier League.

[Winnersaint]

I've never seen that footage before. Truly horrendous. Did Theismann ever play again?

 

No career ended there and then, but that hit defined Taylor's career.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/17/AR2005111701635_2.html

[stockportsaint]

You've obviously forgotten about Lee Todd.

 

And Lee Molyneux

[The9]

I seem to remember Jose having a rant about how much Luke Shaw was demanding in wages when Shaw went to utd and jose was still Chelsea boss. It seemed an odd thing for him to be upset about the time but makes more sense in the context of your post. I imagine once you've bruised the special ones ego you are on his s h i t list for life.

 

Juan Mata may disagree.

 

Shaw IS a bit thick - coincidentally so was Micah Richards whose England career and eventually club career died off as successive managers discovered it. Whether that impacts on his football decision-making or not I'm not sure, but it can't help.

[The9]

And Lee Molyneux

 

Bad League One left back, but a reasonably decent League Two striker nowadays though.

[Zed]

In hindsight, even if Shaw had stayed fit, the £32m for him and £10m we spent on Bertrand was a cracking trade overall.