No tears from me

[Saint in Paradise]

Sinn Féin's Martin McGuinness dies aged 66.

[CB Fry]

He was the people's princess.

[John B]

Yes tears from me

 

I grew to like him a lot as I followed him on Twitter. Of course I am aware of what he did, and what the IRA were responsible for but from that background it makes it even more impressive he became the political figure that he did.

 

There was so much poverty and discrimination in NI in the 1960s which unfortunately led to the troubles and violence

 

Shame he was a Man U supporter but like me enjoyed following Rugby and Cricket

 

I can understand how he is reviled in some quarters but intolerance is never the way forward.

[LGTL]

He was Sinn Feins chief negotiator in the peace process. Nobody can forget the troubles, obviously, but the relative peace we have in NI now might not have been possible without him.

[John B]

Sinn Féin's Martin McGuinness dies aged 66.

 

Without supporting any of the dreadful acts of violence McGuinness or the IRA were involved in I think people need to inform themselves why these people were driven to such extremeties in the first instance. Catholics were treated like dirt in NI and if an army of an occupying state murdered innocent civil rights marchers in your home town ask yourself how you would have responded?

[trousers]

"It is not how you start your life that's important, it's how you finish your life" - Ian Paisley Jnr on the death of Martin McGuinness

 

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prime-ministers-statement-on-the-death-of-martin-mcguinness

 

Prime Minister Theresa May said:

 

First and foremost, my thoughts are with the family of Martin McGuinness at this sad time.

 

While I can never condone the path he took in the earlier part of his life, Martin McGuinness ultimately played a defining role in leading the Republican movement away from violence. In doing so, he made an essential and historic contribution to the extraordinary journey of Northern Ireland from conflict to peace.

 

While we certainly didn’t always see eye-to-eye even in later years, as deputy First Minister for nearly a decade he was one of the pioneers of implementing cross community power sharing in Northern Ireland. He understood both its fragility and its precious significance and played a vital part in helping to find a way through many difficult moments.

 

At the heart of it all was his profound optimism for the future of Northern Ireland – and I believe we should all hold fast to that optimism today.

[Sour Mash]

Yes tears from me

 

I grew to like him a lot as I followed him on Twitter. Of course I am aware of what he did, and what the IRA were responsible for but from that background it makes it even more impressive he became the political figure that he did.

 

There was so much poverty and discrimination in NI in the 1960s which unfortunately led to the troubles and violence

 

Shame he was a Man U supporter but like me enjoyed following Rugby and Cricket

 

I can understand how he is reviled in some quarters but intolerance is never the way forward.

 

You find a murderer likeable because you enjoy his twitter account?

[Sour Mash]

He was Sinn Feins chief negotiator in the peace process. Nobody can forget the troubles, obviously, but the relative peace we have in NI now might not have been possible without him.

 

Wouldn't have needed such a peace process if it wasn't for people like him.

[Hatch]

Fxck Him.

[sadoldgit]

"People like him?" I would imagine that many posters on here see you as someone like him. Blinkered and nationalistic to a fault. Didn't Nelson Mandela start out as the leader of a terrorist organisation? He ended up working for peace, and that is the main point.

[Colinjb]

"People like him?" I would imagine that many posters on here see you as someone like him. Blinkered and nationalistic to a fault. Didn't Nelson Mandela start out as the leader of a terrorist organisation? He ended up working for peace, and that is the main point.

 

What's that old expression? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?

[trousers]

http://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/15170233.UPDATED__When_Martin_McGuinness_came_to_Warrington/

 

Speaking to the BBC shortly after the news broke, Tim's dad Colin Parry said: "Forgiveness never comes into it.

 

"I don't forgive Martin. I don't forgive the IRA - nor does my wife, nor do my children.

 

"But setting aside forgiveness the simple fact is I found Martin McGuinness [to be] an easy and pleasant man to talk to - a man who I believe was sincere in his desire for peace and maintaining the peace process at all costs.

 

"I think he deserves great credit for his most recent life rather than his earlier life.

 

"I don't think anything in his most recent life can atone - that said he was still a brave man who put himself in some risk in some elements of his own community in Northern Ireland."

[hutch]

i don't agree with what he did in his early years, and he was certainly not a hero.

 

But he has my respect, and the people of Northern Ireland are poorer without him.

[Shance]

A few years of good doesn't excuse a lifetime of wickedness.

[whelk]

You'd think the queen had died the way BBC news were banging on this morning. And constantly repeating 'if you have just joined us the breaking news is.....' when half the screen also had it.

[whelk]

Without supporting any of the dreadful acts of violence McGuinness or the IRA were involved in I think people need to inform themselves why these people were driven to such extremeties in the first instance. Catholics were treated like dirt in NI and if an army of an occupying state murdered innocent civil rights marchers in your home town ask yourself how you would have responded?

 

'without supporting...' while pretty much condoning. Don't forget the poor misunderstood jihadists - how would you feel if someone drew a cartoon of your top prophet?

[Hatch]

You'd think the queen had died the way BBC news were banging on this morning. And constantly repeating 'if you have just joined us the breaking news is.....' when half the screen also had it.

 

Why have the BBC gone so 'big' with this? I found it very strange.

[Wade Garrett]

Don't understand all the coverage and platitudes. He was a horrible c*nt who killed innocent children.

[Ohio Saint]

I doubt that anyone on this site can have an objective view on a person like this and their place in history. I doubt that any of us can stand far enough back from the Irish situation to be completely unbiased....I know I can't

 

I just take delight in telling my new fellow countrymen about how their Pilgrim fathers were actually seeking freedom from other religions rather than seeking religious freedom....And then cap it off with telling them how the pilgrim fathers comrades started the troubles in Ireland in the first place.....Yeah, I can be a real ass when given the opportunity.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Why have the BBC gone so 'big' with this? I found it very strange.

 

Their coverage is ****ing sickening, particularly 5live. I thought maybe it was all outlets but the 5pm sky news led with the lap top ban. I guess it's just our national broadcaster's priorities.

 

As for the actual death. Although believing their should be a united Ireland, I'm with Norman Tebbitt on this one. I hope there's a special place for him in hell. Hopefully Adams will be next , at least Mcguiness admitted his IRA past & didn't cover up child abuse, unlike Adams. As for this "peace" we've got. It's more like a protection racket than a peace. What do people think the IRA solider just went back to normal work? They're ****ing gangsters and the fact the head gangster was education secretary tells you all you need to know about the type of peace they've got

 

 

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[Batman]

The man was a coward. It was clear his way of violence was never going to win anything. He just changed the approach

 

Because he became gentle, he was still a murderous **** and the world is a better place without him

[aintforever]

I certainly am not going to shed a tear for the death of a murderer but I'm also not going to dance on his grave because the British governments over the years have been guilty of causing much of the troubles in Northern Ireland. The Catholics in NI did have fair cause for grievance.

 

I would never claim to know enough about what went on, unless you were there and saw what happened first hand I don't think you can really judge either way. From what I have read though the IRA were just a bunch of murdering gangsters, despised by much of the peaceful Catholic population as well as Protestant. Kids getting knee-capped, people living in fear etc. I think Tebbit is probably spot on about the reasons for him turning 'peaceful'.

[View From The Top]

Is NI a better place now than it was and was that it a large part due to the likes of MM and IP? The answer is of course, yes.

 

I'd never condone what he did as a paramilitary, as I've friends with limbs missing thanks to the PIRA, but I'm grateful for the efforts he and others made to bring it all to an end.

[bazza]

A murdering scumbag who, if there's any justice, will rot in hell. I'll save my tears for the very many victims who didn't live to 66 due to him and his ilk.

[Lord Duckhunter]

A murdering scumbag who, if there's any justice, will rot in hell. I'll save my tears for the very many victims who didn't live to 66 due to him and his ilk.

 

****ing great post.

 

 

 

 

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[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I can only speak from an outside perspective and fortunately not as a victim of any IRA atrocity. I can understand the animosity. I do not think that there is anyway that peace would have come about if it were not driven by such a figurehead in the organisation. He had to have the respect of the IRA army council for them to follow him down the road to peace and he can only have won that on the frontline. I admired him for embracing reconciliation to such an extent that he shook hands with the Queen and developed a friendship with the Rev Paisley. Building such a close relationship with Paisley took courage and was powerfully symbolic to his supporters, to those on the other side of the wall and the outside world. As I say I might think differently if I had been personally affected and they are better placed to judge.

[Verbal]

If Martin McGuinness the murderous IRA commander had not existed, it would not have altered the IRA's bombing campaigns, executions, knee-cappings or intimidation (nor the Protestant murderers either).

 

If Martin McGuinness the peace negotiator had not existed, it's unlikely anyone else in the IRA would have had the authority to deliver the Republican side of that peace.

[norwaysaint]

I was going to write a post reacting to some of the stuff above, but remembered trying to discuss political opinions on the internet is the ultimate lost cause.

 

I'd just remind everyone that if you are British, you will have grown up with a very clear image of the British being the good guys and the IRA being a shady bunch of murderers. That's how it works and it's how I grew up too. Naturally, it really isn't that simple. Teaching aspects of history in English speaking countries to students with no national bias, you start to learn quite a bit and see the other perspective. The British really don't come across as the good guys or the Irish as the bad guys. It's a bit more complicated than that, but I was never really told about that, growing up. I never understood what we had done or were doing to them, or what was being done in the name of my country. I just knew that we were all scared of being bombed by the nasty Irish people.

 

I'm glad that he, like so many others, managed to put the hatred to one side and join the struggle for a very difficult peace process.

 

I know nobody's opinion on here will change from this thread though.

[buctootim]

If Martin McGuinness the murderous IRA commander had not existed, it would not have altered the IRA's bombing campaigns, executions, knee-cappings or intimidation (nor the Protestant murderers either).

 

If Martin McGuinness the peace negotiator had not existed, it's unlikely anyone else in the IRA would have had the authority to deliver the Republican side of that peace.

 

Exactly. It's only because he had the first that he was able to deliver the latter. McGuinness made the difference between the peacemakers being a minority and the majority. Gerry Adams was in grave danger of being assassinated as a traitor by hardliners at one point.

[buctootim]

A murdering scumbag who, if there's any justice, will rot in hell. I'll save my tears for the very many victims who didn't live to 66 due to him and his ilk.

 

Northern Ireland government was sectarian since its inception. Why sectarian? - because voting was restricted to property owners and the large majority were Protestants. If you owned more than one house you got one vote for every one you owned. If you ran a business you got extra votes.

 

Violent 'loyalists' recreated the IRA out of a non violent movement modelled on Martin Luther King - who was also killed by psychos who didn't want minorities to have rights. Got any tears for the six Catholics killed and 1,000 made homeless in the Belfast burnings in 1969? How about the victims of the non violent civil rights marches attacked by B Specials and the loyalist RUC?

 

What do you think would happen in the UK now if people from West Southampton didn't have the vote, were excluded from most well paid jobs, had poorer housing and education, were attacked with tear gas and batons every time they protested about it and areas of the city were burnt out by marauders from East Southampton?

 

Edited 22 March, 2017 by buctootim

[Lord Duckhunter]

Northern Ireland government was sectarian since its inception. Why sectarian? - because voting was restricted to property owners and the large majority were Protestants. If you owned more than one house you got one vote for every one you owned. If you ran a business you got extra votes.

 

Violent 'loyalists' recreated the IRA out of a non violent movement modelled on Martin Luther King - who was also killed by psychos who didn't want minorities to have rights. Got any tears for the six Catholics killed and 1,000 made homeless in the Belfast burnings in 1969? How about the victims of the non violent civil rights marches attacked by B Specials and the loyalist RUC?

 

What do you think would happen in the UK now if people from West Southampton didn't have the vote, were excluded from most well paid jobs, had poorer housing and education, were attacked with tear gas and batons every time they protested about it and areas of the city were burnt out by marauders from East Southampton?

 

 

Typical leftie , excusing the murder of women , children & young British soldiers, because they agree with the cause.

 

As for your pony about West Southampton, do you realise the troops first went in to protect the catholic community? My nipper is 17, doesn't have the vote , should he blow a few kids up?

 

If mcguiness was such a great peace maker & changed man why didn't he let the families of the disappeared bury their loved ones. He damn sure know where they're buried

 

 

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[whelk]

Northern Ireland government was sectarian since its inception. Why sectarian? - because voting was restricted to property owners and the large majority were Protestants. If you owned more than one house you got one vote for every one you owned. If you ran a business you got extra votes.

 

Violent 'loyalists' recreated the IRA out of a non violent movement modelled on Martin Luther King - who was also killed by psychos who didn't want minorities to have rights. Got any tears for the six Catholics killed and 1,000 made homeless in the Belfast burnings in 1969? How about the victims of the non violent civil rights marches attacked by B Specials and the loyalist RUC?

 

What do you think would happen in the UK now if people from West Southampton didn't have the vote, were excluded from most well paid jobs, had poorer housing and education, were attacked with tear gas and batons every time they protested about it and areas of the city were burnt out by marauders from East Southampton?

 

 

That analogy is comical. You like to feel you are informed but really seem a simpleton.

[buctootim]

Typical leftie , excusing the murder of women , children & young British soldiers, because they agree with the cause.

 

As for your pony about West Southampton, do you realise the troops first went in to protect the catholic community? My nipper is 17, doesn't have the vote , should he blow a few kids up?

 

If mcguiness was such a great peace maker & changed man why didn't he let the families of the disappeared bury their loved ones. He damn sure know where they're buried

 

 

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Who is excusing the murders? What is left or right about disagreeing with gerrymandering and discrimination? Why didn't you condemn the killing and repression of Catholics which predated and gave birth to the Republican campaign?

 

British troops were warmly welcomed by Catholics at first. You have to ask why that changed. Because the British government put them under control of the hated Stormont government who then used them as an extension of the RUC -engaged in widespread raids and internment.

 

 

Edited 22 March, 2017 by buctootim

[View From The Top]

That analogy is comical. You like to feel you are informed but really seem a simpleton.

 

It was a rather crass analogy however, the thrust of the point is fair enough.

 

Growing up, with family serving in NI, I was an ardent supporter of the loyalist cause and this continued into adulthood when I was in the forces, especially after a lifelong friend of my wife lost his legs and balls to a PIRA bomb. Only after life in a blue suit did I bother to read and educated myself about the history of The Troubles.

 

The more I learnt the more I understood why a section of the Catholic minority, especially in parts of Derry and Belfast, turned to violence and why sections of the Unionist majority believed themselves fighting for their way of life.

 

The paramilitary commanders, from both sides, who moved from violence towards a peaceful future, whilst still guilty of heinous crimes in the past, deserve thanks for making sure the bloodshed stopped and giving the people of NI a peaceful future.

[whelk]

It was a rather crass analogy however, the thrust of the point is fair enough.

 

Growing up, with family serving in NI, I was an ardent supporter of the loyalist cause and this continued into adulthood when I was in the forces, especially after a lifelong friend of my wife lost his legs and balls to a PIRA bomb. Only after life in a blue suit did I bother to read and educated myself about the history of The Troubles.

 

The more I learnt the more I understood why a section of the Catholic minority, especially in parts of Derry and Belfast, turned to violence and why sections of the Unionist majority believed themselves fighting for their way of life.

 

The paramilitary commanders, from both sides, who moved from violence towards a peaceful future, whilst still guilty of heinous crimes in the past, deserve thanks for making sure the bloodshed stopped and giving the people of NI a peaceful future.

 

I have no doubt it is all very complicated. It's the simple way he will explain things says 'like every time they protested they were hit with tear gas'. He seems to want to take the side of the most anti-establishment side in any discussion.

With his reasoning and justification I'm surprised the impoverished n Thornhill aren't working on a few nail bombs, justifiably of course as they live in sh1t houses.

 

And for the record and not taking the p1ss this time I do have Irish family and they are of the opinion both sides of paramilitary are just gangsters.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I hope the undertakers bury his body & don't tell his family where it is. Perhaps then they'll understand how the disappeared families feel

 

 

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[jjsaint]

I hope that his death will bring closure to those who lost loved ones during that horrible period in history.

[Wade Garrett]

I have no doubt it is all very complicated. It's the simple way he will explain things says 'like every time they protested they were hit with tear gas'. He seems to want to take the side of the most anti-establishment side in any discussion.

With his reasoning and justification I'm surprised the impoverished n Thornhill aren't working on a few nail bombs, justifiably of course as they live in sh1t houses.

 

And for the record and not taking the p1ss this time I do have Irish family and they are of the opinion both sides of paramilitary are just gangsters.

 

To be fair, the houses in Thornhill are ok, and a good size. They also have a fair bit of greenery there. Now if you said Millbrook or Merry Oak....

[Wade Garrett]

Some of the arguments regarding McGuinness here, are akin to saying Churchill was a war criminal for the Dresden bombings, and Hitler was fighting a justifiable cause because of the treatment of Germany after the first World War.

 

Murdering gangsters are just that, and is exactly what McGuinness was. Whether there were murdering loyalist gangsters doesn't change what he was.

[Shance]

Celebrating this mans life because of his peace talks is like celebrating Jimmy Savilles life for all his charity work.

 

Yeah I know he touched a few kids but he raised loads for charity!