Watford 3-4 Saints - Reaction

[saintwbu]

Watching the highlights again, for almost every shot we have Gabbiadini is right in front of the goalkeeper incase he spills it, his anticipation is brilliant. A complete 'right place, right time' guy. Also, for anyone who only watches MOTD, I recommend the full highlights from the club, to see Gabbiadini skin their defender and almost score/setup a great goal, and also a piece of magic from Boufal that embarrasses Kaboul before he shoots into the side netting. On another note, has anyone noticed a link between Boufal shooting and falling over? From memory he fell over after both shots he's scored from this season, and he also did it with his shot that lead to Gabbi's goal this weekend. Not sure what my point is, but just can't help but notice it.

[derry]

I think it actually would have made it 2-2. I originally thought the same, but wasn't sure so checked the match thread.

 

However, surely if the ball is looped in from afar and crosses through the six yard box, it's fair to wonder if the keeper could have claimed it.

 

It was at 2-2, IIRC Romeu back heeled, messed it up and gave the ball away, the Watford player was through one on one with Forster and he blocked the shot with his right foot, immediately the ball went to Davis who hit a nice pass to Redmond who ran on, checked, passed square to Boufal who shot from about 25 yards, the ball bounced up and came back off Gomez and was tapped in for our third goal by Gabbiadini.

[The9]

Well, we're not boring any more.

 

Anyone would think we didn't have to play a match every 3/4 days now and the players weren't trying to conserve energy in those matches.

[Saint-Fred]

Anyone would think we didn't have to play a match every 3/4 days now and the players weren't trying to conserve energy in those matches.

 

General point, let's keep it away from Saints as people get touchy, surely if faced with that scenario you are better playing your first team on the two Saturday's and playing a really weakened team on the mid week game? That would mean a chance of 6 points rather than having a less than full strength side playing within themselves to conserve energy over all three?

[Lets B Avenue]

It was at 2-2, IIRC Romeu back heeled, messed it up and gave the ball away, the Watford player was through one on one with Forster and he blocked the shot with his right foot, immediately the ball went to Davis who hit a nice pass to Redmond who ran on, checked, passed square to Boufal who shot from about 25 yards, the ball bounced up and came back off Gomez and was tapped in for our third goal by Gabbiadini.

 

No it wasn't. Check the highlights and you will see that our 3rd goal was scored after Stephens broke up a Watford attack.

[verlaine1979]

No it wasn't. Check the highlights and you will see that our 3rd goal was scored after Stephens broke up a Watford attack.

 

Yup, it was Davis turning into danger to try and make a backpass (again) and losing it to put Watford two on two with the CBs, before Stephens made a good challenge. To be fair to Davis, he did then supply the ball out wide to Redmond (who was in acres of space, so lets not get carried away), who then passed it in to Boufal.

[mrfahaji]

No it wasn't. Check the highlights and you will see that our 3rd goal was scored after Stephens broke up a Watford attack.

 

.

[mrfahaji]

General point, let's keep it away from Saints as people get touchy, surely if faced with that scenario you are better playing your first team on the two Saturday's and playing a really weakened team on the mid week game? That would mean a chance of 6 points rather than having a less than full strength side playing within themselves to conserve energy over all three?

 

That's a fair argument, but the counter argument is why write off 3 points entirely? If you then end up dropping points in the other two matches it looks a bit foolish, and we've seen plenty of managers both vindicated and vilified for playing weakened teams ahead of a key fixture.

 

Earlier in the season there were questions - I may even have been one of those asking them - as to why, even allowing for rotation, we had to field a partly-weakened team every game. But then, and I remember this was a key period when the debate was being had, we ended up taking 7pts from 9 against Boro, Stoke & Bournemouth, so better than if we'd 'sacrificed' one of those matches.

[The9]

General point, let's keep it away from Saints as people get touchy, surely if faced with that scenario you are better playing your first team on the two Saturday's and playing a really weakened team on the mid week game? That would mean a chance of 6 points rather than having a less than full strength side playing within themselves to conserve energy over all three?

 

So basically you're saying sacrifice the Europa League? Because few of our midweek games were Premier League fixtures.

 

Regarding the League games that were part of that run of fixtures - it depends who you're playing against. Personally I think the rotation policy was spot on, the tactics to preserve players were inspired, and we played to come a goal better than third place in the Europa League and do just enough to get through and missed that by the width of a post in injury time of the last game. Same with the League Cup - weakened teams until we had to go for it and dominated the final without winning. Basically two post widths away from winning a Cup and getting to the knockout stages of the Europa League which was my benchmark for an excellent season.

 

Frankly anything other than a complex solution based on balancing a match-by-match approach against overall recovery needs is oversimplifying it, and we very nearly got it spot on. As I said back in December, you'll see what this team can do when they're not playing every 3/4 days.

 

Annoyingly the Man U and Arsenal postponements (and likely loss of the Chelsea game too) means we're about to go months barely playing and then cramming in a load of midweek games at the end again, all against sides with bigger and better squads than us, which is bloody ridiculous.

 

Quite looking forward to us having a tilt at the title next season if we can get the right CB combination, not likely to get into Europe from 11 points behind Everton and so no midweek worries next season.

Edited 7 March, 2017 by The9

[Kenilworthy]

>Quite looking forward to us having a tilt at the title next season if we can get the right CB combination, not likely to get into Europe from 11 points behind Everton and so no midweek worries next season.

Possibly 8th might make the Europa league this season if United win it and then go into the Champions League and one of the top 4 also wins the FA Cup - that assumes United aren't top 4 because I think you only get the extra Champions League slot from winning the Europa League if the winners haven't already qualified for the Champions League.

[beatlesaint]

>Quite looking forward to us having a tilt at the title next season if we can get the right CB combination, not likely to get into Europe from 11 points behind Everton and so no midweek worries next season.

Possibly 8th might make the Europa league this season if United win it and then go into the Champions League and one of the top 4 also wins the FA Cup - that assumes United aren't top 4 because I think you only get the extra Champions League slot from winning the Europa League if the winners haven't already qualified for the Champions League.

 

Im not cheering for Man United under any circumstances after last Sunday......it was bad enough last season wanting them to win the FA CuP !

[The9]

>Quite looking forward to us having a tilt at the title next season if we can get the right CB combination, not likely to get into Europe from 11 points behind Everton and so no midweek worries next season.

Possibly 8th might make the Europa league this season if United win it and then go into the Champions League and one of the top 4 also wins the FA Cup - that assumes United aren't top 4 because I think you only get the extra Champions League slot from winning the Europa League if the winners haven't already qualified for the Champions League.

 

I'm aware of all the permutations, can't see all that happening AND us picking up enough points with the games we've got left. Will be difficult to overhaul West Brom even though we're only 7 behind with a game in hand, but they have a similar number of difficult games to us left.

 

We've got to play Spurs, Chelsea and Liverpool away, Man U, Man City and Arsenal at home which will be tough to get points from.

 

West Brom away will probably be the key in all of it though. 8th place six-pointer, which will be happening after we've played the previous Wednesday and they have an extra day's recovery.

 

So that's 1st, 2nd, 4th and 8th away; 3rd, 5th, 6th and 9th at home.

 

I can see us getting 6 or 7 wins from the remaining games (Bournemouth (14th), Palace (17th), Hull (19th), Stoke (9th) home, Boro (18th) away, plus one or two wins from the games against the top 8 sides above).

 

Chuck in a draw or two and that'll give us about 60 points (we're on 33).

 

In the past seasons (counting backwards) 60 points would finish:

8th, 7th (us, on 60pts), 8th (we were 8th on 56), 8th, 7th - so I guess it's not out of the question, but we've got to find 27 points from 12 matches having only got 33 from 26 so far, so it'll be a significant hike in performances.

[FriendlySaint]

We have very little chance of catching Everton and he knows it, he is just trying to be clever

 

 

 

Do really believe we can then?

 

Yes I do. If we play to the level we're capable of until the end of the season.

[View From The Top]

Yes I do. If we play to the level we're capable of until the end of the season.

 

It doesn't depend on how we play, it depends on how Everton play. We would need to win 4 more games than them.

 

Never. Going. To. Happen.

[Dark Munster]

>Quite looking forward to us having a tilt at the title next season if we can get the right CB combination, not likely to get into Europe from 11 points behind Everton and so no midweek worries next season.

Possibly 8th might make the Europa league this season if United win it and then go into the Champions League and one of the top 4 also wins the FA Cup - that assumes United aren't top 4 because I think you only get the extra Champions League slot from winning the Europa League if the winners haven't already qualified for the Champions League.

If Man Utd get the 5th CL spot by winning EL, and finish in an EL spot, then the PL loses a EL spot. i.e. it goes from 4 CL + 3 EL to 5 CL + 2 EL. So 8th won't qualify anyway.

[Heisenberg]

It doesn't depend on how we play, it depends on how Everton play. We would need to win 4 more games than them.

 

Never. Going. To. Happen.

 

Assuming we win our game in hand will be just 8 points behind Everton with 11 games and 33 points to play for.

 

Our last 11 last season we W7 D3 L1 = 24 points

Everton last 11 was W2 D3 L6 = 9 points

 

We have easier fixtures than Everton and a better squad.

 

We also have a team that is fresh given all the early season rotation. Everton are knackered

 

We will catch them AND we will laugh out loud at Koeman

[trousers]

Ready, steady.... bite....

[The9]

Ready, steady.... bite....

 

All I'm going to say is that we clearly and observably do not have easier fixtures than Everton.

 

Oh and "our game in hand" is against either Man U or Arsenal, depending on when they're rescheduled for.

Edited 7 March, 2017 by The9

[simo]

If Man Utd get the 5th CL spot by winning EL, and finish in an EL spot, then the PL loses a EL spot. i.e. it goes from 4 CL + 3 EL to 5 CL + 2 EL. So 8th won't qualify anyway.

 

So what would happen to that El place ?

[mrfahaji]

Ready, steady.... bite....

 

Ha! I started to write a reply to his opening comment and then realised the entire post is one big sarcasm-laden fish hook...

[derry]

.

 

Yes, the save was after Romeu messed up but our third goal was after Davis messed up and Stephens won the ball then the move was as I described after Davis passed to Redmond. Got that mixed up.

[Dark Munster]

So what would happen to that El place ?

It is converted from EL to CL. In other words the PL doesn't gain an extra European spot. The only exception is if a team qualifies for the CL but wouldn't otherwise qualify for EL or CL, and also the winners of the FA and League cups wouldn't otherwise qualify for EL or CL.

 

For example, if Leicester win the CL and Boro win the FA cup, we'd have 5 CL and 3 EL places if we had won the League cup.

[Pass the Dutchie]

Player of the week: Nathan Redmond. Also a spot for Tadic and a special mention for Yoshida.

 

[simo]

It is converted from EL to CL. In other words the PL doesn't gain an extra European spot. The only exception is if a team qualifies for the CL but wouldn't otherwise qualify for EL or CL, and also the winners of the FA and League cups wouldn't otherwise qualify for EL or CL.

 

For example, if Leicester win the CL and Boro win the FA cup, we'd have 5 CL and 3 EL places if we had won the League cup.

 

But it has to go somewhere otherwise there would be an odd number of teams in the draw ?

[Dark Munster]

But it has to go somewhere otherwise there would be an odd number of teams in the draw ?

Yes some other country gets an extra spot I think, or maybe bumped up in the qualifying round.

[Saint-Fred]

So basically you're saying sacrifice the Europa League? Because few of our midweek games were Premier League fixtures.

 

Regarding the League games that were part of that run of fixtures - it depends who you're playing against. Personally I think the rotation policy was spot on, the tactics to preserve players were inspired, and we played to come a goal better than third place in the Europa League and do just enough to get through and missed that by the width of a post in injury time of the last game. Same with the League Cup - weakened teams until we had to go for it and dominated the final without winning. Basically two post widths away from winning a Cup and getting to the knockout stages of the Europa League which was my benchmark for an excellent season.

 

Frankly anything other than a complex solution based on balancing a match-by-match approach against overall recovery needs is oversimplifying it, and we very nearly got it spot on. As I said back in December, you'll see what this team can do when they're not playing every 3/4 days.

 

Annoyingly the Man U and Arsenal postponements (and likely loss of the Chelsea game too) means we're about to go months barely playing and then cramming in a load of midweek games at the end again, all against sides with bigger and better squads than us, which is bloody ridiculous.

 

Quite looking forward to us having a tilt at the title next season if we can get the right CB combination, not likely to get into Europe from 11 points behind Everton and so no midweek worries next season.

 

Err no I didn't say sacrifice the Europa league I said ignore Saints?

And if you think the plan was to qualify for the Europa league by scoring a goal in the last minute of the last game you are deluded.

 

And we have one midweek game in April so far so with the two postponed games we will have three over two months? (Unless we already have another scheduled I can't be bothered to check) I think you are overdramatising a bit..

[The9]

Err no I didn't say sacrifice the Europa league I said ignore Saints?

And if you think the plan was to qualify for the Europa league by scoring a goal in the last minute of the last game you are deluded.

 

And we have one midweek game in April so far so with the two postponed games we will have three over two months? (Unless we already have another scheduled I can't be bothered to check) I think you are overdramatising a bit..

 

Well, firstly why would you "ignore Saints" when the entire premise is based on the fixtures Saints played?

 

No, the plan was not to concede and hopefully score without wasting too much energy to do so. Basically for all six Europa League games (Sparta at home being the one where we actually did take the sting out of the game, 2-0 up after 27 minutes meant we could take it relatively easy, and we had a useless Swansea side at home the match after that one - and still picked "the first team" for the League game).

 

We will (probably) have four midweek matches, Palace already is, and assuming Chelsea get through in the FA Cup, three matches to be scheduled against teams with bigger squads who can cope with the fixture congestion, and which will also affect our abilities to win the match after (and probably the one before as well if we need to rotate the team). There are only 6 midweek slots even left to the end of the season from now, not considering weeks when Man U could be playing in Europe.

 

Aside from us, only the teams still in Europe (i.e. top sides with big expensive squads) will be playing even half of the midweek games we are in the rest of the season - more to the point we've had months of 2 games a week and now have weeks without matches, bloody ridiculous scheduling.

Edited 9 March, 2017 by The9

[Saint-Fred]

I

Well, firstly why would you "ignore Saints" when the entire premise is based on the fixtures Saints played?

 

No, the plan was not to concede and hopefully score without wasting too much energy to do so. Basically for all six Europa League games (Sparta at home being the one where we actually did take the sting out of the game, 2-0 up after 27 minutes meant we could take it relatively easy, and we had a useless Swansea side at home the match after that one - and still picked "the first team" for the League game).

 

We will (probably) have four midweek matches, Palace already is, and assuming Chelsea get through in the FA Cup, three matches to be scheduled against teams with bigger squads who can cope with the fixture congestion, and which will also affect our abilities to win the match after (and probably the one before as well if we need to rotate the team). There are only 6 midweek slots even left to the end of the season from now, not considering weeks when Man U could be playing in Europe.

 

Aside from us, only the teams still in Europe (i.e. top sides with big expensive squads) will be playing even half of the midweek games we are in the rest of the season - more to the point we've had months of 2 games a week and now have weeks without matches, bloody ridiculous scheduling.

 

If you are making up scenarios to back up your argument (eg chelsea go through) Then I can say that means Man U are out so we can play them that Saturday or not as they have Burnley! Lol anyway I wasn't talking about scheduling I was talking about a hypothetical what's the best way to play three games in a week...

It didn't work for us whatever you say as we lost how many in a row in the league AND didn't get past the first round of games in Europe.

Edited 9 March, 2017 by Saint-Fred

[Ohio Saint]

Nearly a week later, and I've been so starved of good news these days that I'm still looking back fondly over a win against Watford!!!

[The9]

If you are making up scenarios to back up your argument (eg chelsea go through) Then I can say that means Man U are out so we can play them that Saturday or not as they have Burnley! Lol anyway I wasn't talking about scheduling I was talking about a hypothetical what's the best way to play three games in a week...

It didn't work for us whatever you say as we lost how many in a row in the league AND didn't get past the first round of games in Europe.

 

That's not "making up scenarios", that is literally the most likely outcome of this week's FA Cup matches. Also, if Man U are out we still have to play them midweek (as you yourself just said), because everyone has Premier League fixtures scheduled for FA Cup semi weekend, so not sure what your point is there. We're guaranteed 3 midweek games (Palace, Arsenal, Man U) plus probably Chelsea as well.

 

As I've already said, the hypothetical "best way to play 3 games in a week" is to consider all the variables, i.e. opposition strengths and weaknesses, home or away, travel time if there's a European game involved and any prioritisation of the matches, and try and put out sides to win every game, except in extreme circumstances (eg derby game, dead rubber in group stages or big lead from first leg).

 

Maybe on rare occasions or when you know the opposition will weaken their side too, you decide it's better to seriously weaken the team for one game and go for it in the other two - we basically did this with our EFL Cup games against Palace and Sunderland and scraped through both. We got wins either side of Palace, but only a draw and a defeat either side of Sunderland. So all that really did was give us an even playing field for the league games and the results we pretty much as expected given the opposition (beat Swansea and West Ham, drew with Man City and lost to Chelsea).

 

That set of results shows that you can't make your best team better than their limits using rotation, but also shows that with strategic rotation you can win games whilst resting players and giving you a better chance of having your best players at their limits.

 

However, it's a case by case basis: when you look the matches either side of our Europa League games the results were pretty much as expected, except for two upset defeats - after beating Inter we lost to Hull (in a game we would have won 90% of the time and were very unlucky) but before drawing at home with Beer Sheva we got humped 3-0 at Palace - picking basically the first team but with Hojbjerg for Davis. Both those midweek Europa games were vital and it seems to have had an impact on a Premier League result, but I don't know if we could have balanced the teams better.

 

All the other games basically went with league position and expected results anyway, but those two results are 6 points which would put us a point behind West Brom with a game in hand for 8th - but you can't expect everything to go your way in every match, rotation or not.

Edited 10 March, 2017 by The9

[The9]

Yes some other country gets an extra spot I think, or maybe bumped up in the qualifying round.

 

Yup, one of the teams at Switzerland kind of coeffecient level gets a team moved into a later round, and the first qualifying round loses one tie with the domino effect ending with the top rated coefficient nation moving a team from the first to the second qualifying round - at that point they're usually kicking teams out here and there for not reaching UEFA criteria and considering if the likes of Kosovo, San Marino or Gibraltar merit an appearance based on ground size and things like that, so it's not as significant as you'd think.