Watford 3-4 Saints - Reaction

[Restark19]

Also worth noting that if City beat Stoke on Wednesday night we'll be 2 points behind with 2 games in hand over them

[woodsaint]

Just can't believe some of the comments here. I was at the match and our defence was always going to have a torrid time against their big, aggressive, bullying players.

 

In fact it was a great effort, given that Watford kept bombarding us and looking for scraps. The first and third goals certainly came in that way. Maya had a superb game, and I simply do the accept that Stephens was poor. No, he's not VVD, but was a very capable, mature deputy and will keep on improving. Both Ward-Prowse and Davis worked their socks off to break up play and win second balls. Perhaps Cedric was a little below par, but what some posters don't seem to get is, this was a tough physical game. In attack we were sharp and always dangerous.

 

Brilliant effort for three points.

 

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Totally agree. For a young centre back thrown in to replace VVD and Fonte, i think Stephens has done well. His positioning could have been better for one or two of the goals we have conceded with him playing but hes young and hes going to learn playing against the likes of Zlatan, Carroll, Defoe, Deeney etc. We are not going down and probably not making Europe, so why not give him the experience. Hes become a bit of a fall guy because we have signed an ex Barca and Juve defender, but he hasnt played in over a year. Yes if Stephens has an absolute stinker then Caceres will get his chance but Jack has been doing well and im happy with Puel persisting with him and giving him premier league game time.

[mrfahaji]

No commets at all as yet on Stephens' magnificent piece of defending at 2-2, when left 2 on 1, showing the striker on to his left, blocking off the pass before making a great challenge? That was mature defending at its best.

 

True! In fact he was so accomplished it almost didn't register how important it was (if that makes sense, it wasn't like a last ditch slide).

 

We did get pretty sloppy in the last 25 mins (that was the only part of the match I saw), but sometimes that will inevitably happen when we try and play our way out of trouble.

[mrfahaji]

Totally agree. For a young centre back thrown in to replace VVD and Fonte, i think Stephens has done well. His positioning could have been better for one or two of the goals we have conceded with him playing but hes young and hes going to learn playing against the likes of Zlatan, Carroll, Defoe, Deeney etc. We are not going down and probably not making Europe, so why not give him the experience. Hes become a bit of a fall guy because we have signed an ex Barca and Juve defender, but he hasnt played in over a year. Yes if Stephens has an absolute stinker then Caceres will get his chance but Jack has been doing well and im happy with Puel persisting with him and giving him premier league game time.

 

Not going to dispute Shroppie's point, nor the reasons you have raised here. However, the counter argument is that we have just conceded three goals against Watford and have been leaking goals left right and centre recently. If we use the excuse that we've been up against good quality strikers then we may have to accept we're going to concede a few goals every game...

 

I'm more inclined to say that van Dijk is so good it masked some of our defensive frailties as a team, and now it is being exposed with Stephens' inexperience. He doesn't make howlers, isn't consistently out of position etc, but give the other team enough chances and eventually he will get caught out. It then compounds the situation that our keeper is rarely on hand to bail him out.

[pluto]

63/64 season Division 2

 

April 1964

 

18th April at CardiffCity 4-2 win

 

21st April at Bury 5-1 win

[Dark Munster]

No commets at all as yet on Stephens' magnificent piece of defending at 2-2, when left 2 on 1, showing the striker on to his left, blocking off the pass before making a great challenge? That was mature defending at its best.

Wasn't that Yoshi?

[Shroppie]

Not going to dispute Shroppie's point, nor the reasons you have raised here. However, the counter argument is that we have just conceded three goals against Watford and have been leaking goals left right and centre recently. If we use the excuse that we've been up against good quality strikers then we may have to accept we're going to concede a few goals every game...

 

I'm more inclined to say that van Dijk is so good it masked some of our defensive frailties as a team, and now it is being exposed with Stephens' inexperience. He doesn't make howlers, isn't consistently out of position etc, but give the other team enough chances and eventually he will get caught out. It then compounds the situation that our keeper is rarely on hand to bail him out.

Van Dijk is good enough to mask any team's defensive weaknesses. With him injured there was no way (particularly with Fonte gone too) we wouldn't be weakened. It's a question of degree.

 

Yes, we've conceded goals that we might not have, but we've also kept clean sheets. This isn't a crisis.

 

 

 

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Edited 4 March, 2017 by Shroppie

[SaintBobby]

Good win.

 

We seem to have moved from having a solid defence and toothless attack a few months ago, to having an awesome attack and a porous defence.

[Graffito]

Thought we played really well. Loved the second goal. To say the scoreline flattered Watford would be an understatement. They are a limited team of lumoxes who play very basic football imo. Chalk and cheese with Saints.

 

By the way, they're first goal shouldn't have stood. The bloke taking the throw in, might have been the skate, had almost his whole foot over the line.

[Wilf]

63/64 season Division 2

 

April 1964

 

18th April at CardiffCity 4-2 win

 

21st April at Bury 5-1 win

 

 

So today really quite historic!

[FriendlySaint]

On Stephens. He's a very good day tackler one on one. But in this league it's extremely difficult to play with a centre back that's very weak in the air and has no physicality.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

I thought Stephens was decent with the ball in front of him but when the ball was out wide he needs to find the balance between getting into a sound position and being aware of where the danger is. He often falls back into what would be a default position but it leaves the striker free if he holds back a bit. That will come with experience.

 

On the other hand I thought his distribution was excellent and I was also impressed with the way he would lay the ball off to a teammate if he knew he was being unchallenged from one of Watford's numerous hopeless balls lumped forward.

 

Considering his relative lack of experience I thought he was quite accomplished and I see no reason to drop him yet. Lets see how fit Caceres is for the U23's.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I can't believe that Stephens isn't a top quality centre half yet. What's up with the bloke, after a handful of premier league games he should be up to speed by now ffs . Puels ****ing clueless, what sort of a manager stands by his youngsters and lets them learn from their mistakes. Unless a nipper is as good as a senior pro he needs to be dropped. Stephens hasn't played like VvD, he's clearly out of his depth. Why on earth would the club look to the future and give him a chance? **** me, we only got 6!points today and at Sunderland, without him we'd have got 8

 

 

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Edited 4 March, 2017 by Lord Duckhunter

[Graffito]

I can't believe that Stephens isn't a top quality centre half yet. What's up with the bloke, after a handful of premier league games he should be up to speed by now ffs . Puels ****ing clueless, what sort of a manager stands by his youngsters and lets them learn from their mistakes. Unless a nipper is as good as a senior pro he needs to be dropped. Stephens hasn't played like VvD, he's clearly out of his depth. Why on earth would the club look to the future and give him a chance?

 

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Puel is supporting Stephens as Guardiola supports Stones. Stephens is comfortable on the ball which is a big plus for the way we play. The raw material is there. The rest will come with coaching and experience.

[ItchenRob]

Just can't believe some of the comments here. I was at the match and our defence was always going to have a torrid time against their big, aggressive, bullying players.

 

In fact it was a great effort, given that Watford kept bombarding us and looking for scraps. The first and third goals certainly came in that way. Maya had a superb game, and I simply do the accept that Stephens was poor. No, he's not VVD, but was a very capable, mature deputy and will keep on improving. Both Ward-Prowse and Davis worked their socks off to break up play and win second balls. Perhaps Cedric was a little below par, but what some posters don't seem to get is, this was a tough physical game. In attack we were sharp and always dangerous.

 

Brilliant effort for three points.

 

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Hi Shroppie, good to meet you in the Estcourt after the game today. Hope you had a good trip back. Agree with your comments. UTS !

[doddisalegend]

Watching MOTD not sure our defending is any worse than Arsenal's comical attempts.

[FriendlySaint]

Watching MOTD not sure our defending is any worse than Arsenal's comical attempts.

 

I think Watford were really good today personally. Brilliant going forward and direct. We played really good. A lot of teams in the league wouldn't have been able to live with Watford today. Really good performance to win in my opinion. Don't think anyone had a bad game defensively either. Stephens is just limited as mentioned (lack of physicality and aerial ability), he did brilliantly well at that vital moment at 2-2.

 

As for Arsenal..Liverpool were brilliant today. Goals doesn't always equal **** or comical defending. Liverpool's third goal today was a thing of beauty and Mane is impossible to defend against when he's in form. He looked like a man possessed at times today against Arsenal.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Puel is supporting Stephens as Guardiola supports Stones. Stephens is comfortable on the ball which is a big plus for the way we play. The raw material is there. The rest will come with coaching and experience.

 

That's the main reason we got Puel in, he believes in nippers and he plays them . On that score he's done everything we've wanted. Simms, McQueen , JWP and Stephens have made great strides under him .

 

 

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[FriendlySaint]

I can't believe that Stephens isn't a top quality centre half yet. What's up with the bloke, after a handful of premier league games he should be up to speed by now ffs . Puels ****ing clueless, what sort of a manager stands by his youngsters and lets them learn from their mistakes. Unless a nipper is as good as a senior pro he needs to be dropped. Stephens hasn't played like VvD, he's clearly out of his depth. Why on earth would the club look to the future and give him a chance? **** me, we only got 6!points today and at Sunderland, without him we'd have got 8

 

 

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He has potential to be good at this level. But we desperately need to bulk him up and get him stronger. Get more of a leap on him too and more aggression into him. That's what's holding him back right now.

[Saints foreva]

I actually think Stephens can be a decent CDM.

[doddisalegend]

I think Watford were really good today personally. Brilliant going forward and direct. We played really good. A lot of teams in the league wouldn't have been able to live with Watford today. Really good performance to win in my opinion. Don't think anyone had a bad game defensively either. Stephens is just limited as mentioned (lack of physicality and aerial ability), he did brilliantly well at that vital moment at 2-2.

 

As for Arsenal..Liverpool were brilliant today. Goals doesn't always equal **** or comical defending. Liverpool's third goal today was a thing of beauty and Mane is impossible to defend against when he's in form. He looked like a man possessed at times today against Arsenal.

 

 

Hardly pools first goal came from a ball that went right across Arsenals area 4 Arsenal players failed to put a foot on it or clear it. Second goal Mane was left out wide un-marked in acres of space again poor defending. Liverpool's third goal was good but helped by Arsenal chasing the game late on.

[Whitey Grandad]

Thought we played really well. Loved the second goal. To say the scoreline flattered Watford would be an understatement. They are a limited team of lumoxes who play very basic football imo. Chalk and cheese with Saints.

 

By the way, they're first goal shouldn't have stood. The bloke taking the throw in, might have been the skate, had almost his whole foot over the line.

 

'Almost his whole foot'?

 

That means it was a legal throw. As long as part of each foot is on the line (or behind) it's a fair throw.

[Forester]

We look a real threat going forward, I never thought i would see eight goals in two away games scored by us. I think Caceres will be brought in after today, Watford just lumped it up front and fought for scraps and it was crudely effective but contrasted with our beautiful attacking fluid passing football.

 

Two other things, I thought our fans were superb and still in Wembley mode even singing straight after we went 1-0 down. Also good to see Claude come a long way over to thank the fans at the end. He usually likes to take a back seat and let the players bask in the glory but I think it's good to see him feel increasingly appreciated

[Lord Duckhunter]

I actually think Stephens can be a decent CDM.

 

It's funny because I've seen loads of centre halves you think could do that,even way back Gareth Southgate , Jamie Caraghar , Chambers was another. I agree about Stephens, yet many don't seem to be able to switch, Diers probably the only one I can think of recently . It's strange really, because you would think they're pretty similar roles and more could do it. However it tends to be normal midfielders who turn themselves into defensive midfielders rather than centre halves doing so

 

 

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[shurlock]

I actually think Stephens can be a decent CDM.

 

No evidence that this is the case. Playing balls out of the back when teams are standing off you is one thing; keeping possession and making passes in the hurly burly of midfield when opponents are coming at you from all angles is quite another.

 

The difference is night and day - remember Toby, who you'd think would take to DCM like a duck to water, struggling there when he filled in towards the end of the 2014/15 season.

[FriendlySaint]

No evidence that this is the case. Playing balls out of the back when teams are standing off you is one thing; keeping possession and making passes in the hurly burly of midfield when opponents are coming at you from all angles is quite another.

 

The difference is night and day - remember Toby, who you'd think would take to DCM like a duck to water, struggling there when he filled in towards the end of the 2014/15 season.

 

I agree.

[OttawaSaint]

While we were playing twice a week, I've defended Puel over squad rotation and his substitutions but I'm beginning to lose faith in him. Thought today's substitutions were wrong in who he took of and in the timing, just as they were at Wembley. For the defence to let in 3 goals against a mid-table side isn't good enough and just because the forwards scored 4 doesn't mean the failings should be overlooked. Stephens has had his chance with a run of games and doesn't look up to this standard. Since Puel claimed that Caceres was looking good in training, how is it he hasn't been given at least half a game to see how he gets on?

Unfortunately, I can't see any club coming in to poach this manager so we are probably stuck with him unless things get really bad. Doesn't mean I'm not grateful for the three points but only improving the GD by 1 feels like a lost opportunity.

 

This post got off to a shaky start, the end is terrible and the less said about the middle bit, the better. But apart from that, spot on.

 

Give yourself a coconut!

[Pamplemousse]

Puel is supporting Stephens as Guardiola supports Stones. Stephens is comfortable on the ball which is a big plus for the way we play. The raw material is there. The rest will come with coaching and experience.

 

The major difference is we haven't spent £40 odd million on Stephens. And Stephens is only in the team because of injuries.

[5string]

Just watched MotD.

 

4 goals. 3 points. Seems good to me.

 

Apart from switching off our defensive mode for their 3rd, I'd say we were never in danger of losing. I'm not being arrogant, just the way we played (based on those highlights) it looked that way.

 

Redmond's getting better, isn't he?

[scotty]

Wasn't that Yoshi?

 

No, it was Stephens. Top notch defending, that.

[John Boy Saint]

No, it was Stephens. Top notch defending, that.

Awww don't stop a good witch hunt

[Graffito]

'Almost his whole foot'?

 

That means it was a legal throw. As long as part of each foot is on the line (or behind) it's a fair throw.

 

Since you were a referee Whitey, I was inclined to defer to your greater knowledge of the laws. Is this the relevant law?

 

Law 15: "have part of each foot on the touchline or on the ground outside the touchline"

[scotty]

Awww don't stop a good witch hunt

 

I take it back. That one wasn't a bad tackle I suppose, but it was just papering over the cracks.

[mrfahaji]

'Almost his whole foot'?

 

That means it was a legal throw. As long as part of each foot is on the line (or behind) it's a fair throw.

 

Blimey, you learn something every day! Have always believed your foot couldn't go past the line. Seems strange to me though...

[verlaine1979]

Just watched MotD.

 

4 goals. 3 points. Seems good to me.

 

Apart from switching off our defensive mode for their 3rd, I'd say we were never in danger of losing. I'm not being arrogant, just the way we played (based on those highlights) it looked that way.

 

Redmond's getting better, isn't he?

 

Well, aside from when Davis did his usual trick of trying to turn back and offload to the CBs, only to lose it and leave the defence 2 on 2, needing a last ditch challenge from Stephens to prevent Watford going 3-2 up - nope, never in any danger.

[Kingsbridge Saint]

Puel seems to be taking the second chance he won by that Wembley performance. The result AND an attacking performance. Finally we are getting somewhere. Would rather win 4-3 than 1-0 any day of the week. Defence needs some work, but Fraser Forster looks shot to pieces. 4 shots to save, missed 3. Would have had 3 shots to save conceding 2 but for the fact he doesn't boss his 6 yard area either.

[Saint in Paradise]

Sorry mate but that is complete horse doings, he hasn't played for a year, I trust Claude's judgement on the decision to play young Jack over someone who

hasn't played in ages and is very likely to be very ring rusty, Premier League isn't the best place to experiment no matter what is on your CV,

.

 

Sorry to sound a bit negative but I hesitate to agree with the bit I have highlighted. A long time ago many fans were saying that the formation that CP was using was foreign to what Saints had

been used to and it was failing time after time. I read that finally even the players suggested to CP that he change back and when he did we all know what happened then. These days there just

can't be any sentiment with teams as there is now far far too much at stake. You just have to play a seasoned international over a young relatively inexperienced newcomer in this dog eat dog world.

 

As for F.F. I am very disappointed that given his size he appears so reluctant to even try and command his six yard box let alone the rest of the penalty area. I can't think of many players who wouldn't

flinch even a little if they saw that massive bloke bearing down on them knowing that GK's, rightly or wrongly, get a lot more protection and benefit of the doubt from referees than outfield players do.

[warsash saint]

FF Rubbish

Davis sloppy

Stephens not up to it

 

FFS we have scored 4 goals away from home for the 2nd game running & still people *******moan??!!

[FriendlySaint]

Well, aside from when Davis did his usual trick of trying to turn back and offload to the CBs, only to lose it and leave the defence 2 on 2, needing a last ditch challenge from Stephens to prevent Watford going 3-2 up - nope, never in any danger.

 

Davis still had a good game whether you like it or not.

[Red]

do you (or anyone) seriously think VvD will be a Saint next season?

 

 

Yes. Want to bet on it if you are so sure - £100?

[OttawaSaint]

Yes. Want to bet on it if you are so sure - £100?

 

I think your 100 is safe. ****man has a history of being wrong...EVERY SINGLE TIME...

[qwertyell]

Since Stephens came into the side we have conceded 17 goals in 7 matches. Thats over 2 per game (and including the EFL cup semi final clean sheet v Liverpool and a clean sheet against a hopeless Sunderland) . It's obvious that he isn't ready for the Premier League yet and surely a half fit Caceres has to be a better option at present?

 

And I think we conceded 13 in Van Dijk's last 8 completed games - so let's not buy into the fiction that Stephens has joined a watertight defence and been solely responsible for the floodgates opening.

 

He hasn't had the benefit of playing alongside our best defender, Van Dijk, either. Yoshida has conceded 11 in 5 league games without Virgil at his side. Maybe he's "out of his depth" too?

 

I could understand people getting on Stephens' back if he'd been calamitous, but he's done okay for what he is: an inexperienced fifth choice CB dropped into the deep end due to injuries and Fonte's escape act. A fully fit Caceras - should that status ever come around - wouldn't have solved our struggle against the high ball yesterday. Aerial strength is not his selling point.

 

I think there are far greater reasons for our defensive frailties this season, from a keeper who is beaten by about 80% of the shots he faces, to an unbalanced midfield where only one player in the entire squad can tackle and perform anything like a screening brief.

 

But we're playing some good football, attacking with verve and skill, scoring goals and creating chances. And winning on the road. We've become exciting under the most dour manager we've had in years! Enjoy the ride, I say.

[Faz]

I fail to see what FF could have done on any of those goals yesterday.

[Norm]

And I think we conceded 13 in Van Dijk's last 8 completed games - so let's not buy into the fiction that Stephens has joined a watertight defence and been solely responsible for the floodgates opening.

 

He hasn't had the benefit of playing alongside our best defender, Van Dijk, either. Yoshida has conceded 11 in 5 league games without Virgil at his side. Maybe he's "out of his depth" too?

 

I could understand people getting on Stephens' back if he'd been calamitous, but he's done okay for what he is: an inexperienced fifth choice CB dropped into the deep end due to injuries and Fonte's escape act. A fully fit Caceras - should that status ever come around - wouldn't have solved our struggle against the high ball yesterday. Aerial strength is not his selling point.

 

I think there are far greater reasons for our defensive frailties this season, from a keeper who is beaten by about 80% of the shots he faces, to an unbalanced midfield where only one player in the entire squad can tackle and perform anything like a screening brief.

 

But we're playing some good football, attacking with verve and skill, scoring goals and creating chances. And winning on the road. We've become exciting under the most dour manager we've had in years! Enjoy the ride, I say.

 

 

Excellent post, imo. I have been impressed with the young lad, considering his lack of game time before being thrown in at the deep end. FF has been my biggest disappointment this season.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

wtf are you on about

 

perfectly reasonable question to ask- at end of the day 7th place is only way we can make europe now (plus a top 5 team winning fa cup), unfortunately i don't think we will, defence not good enough, all dependent on whether vvd recovers quickly.

 

We have very little chance of catching Everton and he knows it, he is just trying to be clever

 

The top 6 are gone I think he's suggesting. So the aim is to catch Everton

 

Do really believe we can then?

[Saint Troy]

There were a couple of sloppy periods yesterday in front of the defence which really exposed the two cbs. Even Romeu was guilty of giving it away and so out cbs had a fair bit to do. It was the sort of game where Morgan & wanyama snuff everything out and it's only 30yrdshots, a fair few times we really let them at us. Our midfield play that open against the likes of arsenal/Liverpool we'll concede more than 3! Stevens coped well in these situations I thought and recovered then a couple of times. I think it's hard with two smaller cbs playing as no one just dominates against the high ball and so as a pair I don't think these two will make it, individually alongside the likes of vvd they're up to the job. Is it naive champ man talk that thinks cause of his height Stevens may be best pushing in to dm? I've never seen him there and managers don't seem to want to

[saintant]

Just wanted to pay credit to Gabbi for his goal which was as simple as it was brilliant. Simple because for him it was a routine tap in. Brilliant because if he's not on the pitch Gomes almost certainly gets away with spilling the ball. A striker who is smart enough and willing enough to gamble on goalkeeping errors is worth his weight in gold and I hope the likes of Redmond and Tadic etc will learn from Gabbi. It's a long time since we've had a striker with such touch, vision and movement and these attributes along with the fact that this guy is a ruthless predator mean we've got some player on our hands as 6 goals (should be 7) in his first four games testifies. He's still getting used to his team mates and vice versa so that is a phenomenal return for a player who, in reality, should still be bedding himself in.

Edited 5 March, 2017 by saintant

[SaintBitterne]

Gabbiadini's alround play yesterday was superb combined with a great work ethic .I think Rodriguez may be gone in the summer now being fourth choice striker(and maybe further with Sam Gallagher returning) excellent going forward today, switched off for the goals conceded but can't complain when you score 4 away from home again.Excellent atmosphere as well today , great to see oh when the saints not sung 500 times .Bring on Spurs

[saintedwill]

I actually think Stephens can be a decent CDM.

 

That's where Swindon played him a fair few times when he was on loan there.

 

I wonder if it would make it sense to play him with Caceres (when he's fit) and drop Yoshida so he can learn on the pitch from a top level CB.

[Gingeletiss]

That's where Swindon played him a fair few times when he was on loan there.

 

I wonder if it would make it sense to play him with Caceres (when he's fit) and drop Yoshida so he can learn on the pitch from a top level CB.

 

Insanity!!!