It's the culmination of issues that is the problem - not just an individual one

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Whenever I post too soon after a loss it's usually a bit whiney as I am annoyed at losing. So I've waited a few hours to post these thoughts - as much to see if anyone else feels the same way as it is it to vent a little.

 

Over the course of the last few months I've seen people try and pinpoint a single reason why we've been struggling as though by doing so the solution to our problems is then identified and thus it can then solved. I don't think it is as black and white as that and what we're experiencing is the culmination of a number of issues which is causing us a big problem - and that fixing one of them may help a little but it doesn't make everything good again.

 

I had half expected an up and down season - my thoughts pre season were that our recruitment was lacking in quality but we had beefed up the squad for many more games and that was understandable to a degree if we continued to get more out of players than expected and the new signings would be better than they looked on paper. I would be happy with a mid-table 'nothing' season if we gave the cups a good go and we kept (or re-established) the pathway for youth open.

 

What has unraveled is more concerning than things you would expect in a typical an up and down season and has shown that issues exist at all levels which are impacting us:

 

1. The Board

No doubt it is very hard to rebuild every summer. Getting deals done is an elongated process. Do I think the board have made the most of the means they had at their disposal? No - and I think this summer we saw other teams of our size make a more committed financial investment to their team and that bridges any gap we had established for ourselves in previous seasons. Have those teams done it at risk? I don't know - but enough of them did it to make me think they can't all be taking risks. Does spending money guarantee success? No. Will you have success if you don't invest? No. We finally invested in the striker we needed 6 months too late and at a time when we needed to invest in a defender. I don't think trying is good enough - you need to get deals done as the product on the pitch is what matters most. I absolutely understand that you can't replace a great player with a great player. But you need to make the most of the means you have at your disposal. I don't think we have. Is there a wider agenda at play here impacting investment? Is Les Reed working under restricted circumstances?

 

2. The Management

I have some sympathy with Puel. I think the players he has been given off the back of last season are inadequate and are not suitable for his way of playing. In addition the games have come thick and fast so the opportunity to address certain things is limited (but does exist). I don't mind his tactics too much - they have some logic to them on paper. But they do not appear to be suitable for the players or our league. They rely on a specific set of circumstances in the game and when those circumstances don't exist we seem lost as a team. That's really bad. We're awful at chasing games and too cautious when we have the lead. It's a bit naive. Where is the game management? What I haven't seen is any attempt to adapt and we're now 38 games deep into this season. Isn't that more than enough time to be clever enough to work things out? Or is it just going to be the same old story every game?

 

3. The Players

I've not witnessed such poor body language between the players since we went down to League 1. They play like strangers, they are at pains to point out mistakes to each other and overall spirit seems lacking. We're a momentum team and it seems heads go down too easily, most notably when we concede. Where is the backbone and resiliency? This then manifests itself into how we play and players passing sideways as no-one wants to do something wrong. There is an issue here. I think there is some talent in the squad but we do not play to strengths and we increasingly allow opponents to exploit weaknesses. It's a recipe for disaster. We must be coached and managed better. What we see on the pitch is less than the total parts on it - even if recruitment has been iffy recently.

 

4. The Takeover

Who knows what is happening here but it is clearly unsettling. You have all sorts of rumours coming out about it and it is definitely impacting the club - and I would suggest the team either directly or indirectly.

 

So, poor recruitment, inflexible management and little team spirit all with a takeover hanging over the club. Not a great set of circumstances.

 

You may argue that if you 'solve' one of these things then the others are also solved. I don't think it is as clear cut as that. I don't think we'll go down. As a supporter I know we don't have a divine right to success and I know we've had it good in recent times. The 'we used to be in League 1' rhetoric is a complete cop-out - you have to judge the season on its own merits. This season I think too many mistakes have been made and it's absolutely fine to point it out and say it's unacceptable if you think they could have been avoided. I think some key ones could have been avoided. For example, bad luck is losing VVD to injury. An avoidable mistake is failing to get cover for him in the same month we sold Fonte. It gives the fans the impression the club are not ambitious or just plain incompetent. It's annoying. Fans don't like being lied to and having expectations mismanaged. You want to get rid of Fonte for whatever reason but assure us he'll be replaced - fine, we'll trust your judgement no matter what our emotional investment in the player. You want to then fail to replace him and watch our season adversely impacted - that will get fans backs up and we have every right to be ****ed off.

 

Things can get better this season without drastic change (somehow we can win a cup!) but hopefully this summer the club has the nous to assess and address purposefully or at the very least will start treating the fans with more respect when it comes to its transparency promise.

 

There are a few positives this season and we shouldn't forget them, but the overall feeling is that we're going backwards because of lots of issues and some of it we've brought on ourselves and that is very frustrating given the position we were in last summer.

[Wade Garrett]

Whenever I post too soon after a loss it's usually a bit whiney as I am annoyed at losing. So I've waited a few hours to post these thoughts - as much to see if anyone else feels the same way as it is it to vent a little.

 

Over the course of the last few months I've seen people try and pinpoint a single reason why we've been struggling as though by doing so the solution to our problems is then identified and thus it can then solved. I don't think it is as black and white as that and what we're experiencing is the culmination of a number of issues which is causing us a big problem - and that fixing one of them may help a little but it doesn't make everything good again.

 

I had half expected an up and down season - my thoughts pre season were that our recruitment was lacking in quality but we had beefed up the squad for many more games and that was understandable to a degree if we continued to get more out of players than expected and the new signings would be better than they looked on paper. I would be happy with a mid-table 'nothing' season if we gave the cups a good go and we kept (or re-established) the pathway for youth open.

 

What has unraveled is more concerning than things you would expect in a typical an up and down season and has shown that issues exist at all levels which are impacting us:

 

1. The Board

No doubt it is very hard to rebuild every summer. Getting deals done is an elongated process. Do I think the board have made the most of the means they had at their disposal? No - and I think this summer we saw other teams of our size make a more committed financial investment to their team and that bridges any gap we had established for ourselves in previous seasons. Have those teams done it at risk? I don't know - but enough of them did it to make me think they can't all be taking risks. Does spending money guarantee success? No. Will you have success if you don't invest? No. We finally invested in the striker we needed 6 months too late and at a time when we needed to invest in a defender. I don't think trying is good enough - you need to get deals done as the product on the pitch is what matters most. I absolutely understand that you can't replace a great player with a great player. But you need to make the most of the means you have at your disposal. I don't think we have. Is there a wider agenda at play here impacting investment? Is Les Reed working under restricted circumstances?

 

2. The Management

I have some sympathy with Puel. I think the players he has been given off the back of last season are inadequate and are not suitable for his way of playing. In addition the games have come thick and fast so the opportunity to address certain things is limited (but does exist). I don't mind his tactics too much - they have some logic to them on paper. But they do not appear to be suitable for the players or our league. They rely on a specific set of circumstances in the game and when those circumstances don't exist we seem lost as a team. That's really bad. We're awful at chasing games and too cautious when we have the lead. It's a bit naive. Where is the game management? What I haven't seen is any attempt to adapt and we're now 38 games deep into this season. Isn't that more than enough time to be clever enough to work things out? Or is it just going to be the same old story every game?

 

3. The Players

I've not witnessed such poor body language between the players since we went down to League 1. They play like strangers, they are at pains to point out mistakes to each other and overall spirit seems lacking. We're a momentum team and it seems heads go down too easily, most notably when we concede. Where is the backbone and resiliency? This then manifests itself into how we play and players passing sideways as no-one wants to do something wrong. There is an issue here. I think there is some talent in the squad but we do not play to strengths and we increasingly allow opponents to exploit weaknesses. It's a recipe for disaster. We must be coached and managed better. What we see on the pitch is less than the total parts on it - even if recruitment has been iffy recently.

 

4. The Takeover

Who knows what is happening here but it is clearly unsettling. You have all sorts of rumours coming out about it and it is definitely impacting the club - and I would suggest the team either directly or indirectly.

 

So, poor recruitment, inflexible management and little team spirit all with a takeover hanging over the club. Not a great set of circumstances.

 

You may argue that if you 'solve' one of these things then the others are also solved. I don't think it is as clear cut as that. I don't think we'll go down. As a supporter I know we don't have a divine right to success and I know we've had it good in recent times. The 'we used to be in League 1' rhetoric is a complete cop-out - you have to judge the season on its own merits. This season I think too many mistakes have been made and it's absolutely fine to point it out and say it's unacceptable if you think they could have been avoided. I think some key ones could have been avoided. For example, bad luck is losing VVD to injury. An avoidable mistake is failing to get cover for him in the same month we sold Fonte. It gives the fans the impression the club are not ambitious or just plain incompetent. It's annoying. Fans don't like being lied to and having expectations mismanaged. You want to get rid of Fonte for whatever reason but assure us he'll be replaced - fine, we'll trust your judgement no matter what our emotional investment in the player. You want to then fail to replace him and watch our season adversely impacted - that will get fans backs up and we have every right to be ****ed off.

 

Things can get better this season without drastic change (somehow we can win a cup!) but hopefully this summer the club has the nous to assess and address purposefully or at the very least will start treating the fans with more respect when it comes to its transparency promise.

 

There are a few positives this season and we shouldn't forget them, but the overall feeling is that we're going backwards because of lots of issues and some of it we've brought on ourselves and that is very frustrating given the position we were in last summer.

 

Very reasoned post. At this moment in time though, ask yourself if another manager could improve us with the same players Puel has at his disposal. For me, it is an emphatic yes.

[beatlesaint]

Excellent post

[pluto]

More or less nail on the head

[SOTONS EAST SIDE]

Whenever I post too soon after a loss it's usually a bit whiney as I am annoyed at losing. So I've waited a few hours to post these thoughts - as much to see if anyone else feels the same way as it is it to vent a little.

 

Over the course of the last few months I've seen people try and pinpoint a single reason why we've been struggling as though by doing so the solution to our problems is then identified and thus it can then solved. I don't think it is as black and white as that and what we're experiencing is the culmination of a number of issues which is causing us a big problem - and that fixing one of them may help a little but it doesn't make everything good again.

 

I had half expected an up and down season - my thoughts pre season were that our recruitment was lacking in quality but we had beefed up the squad for many more games and that was understandable to a degree if we continued to get more out of players than expected and the new signings would be better than they looked on paper. I would be happy with a mid-table 'nothing' season if we gave the cups a good go and we kept (or re-established) the pathway for youth open.

 

What has unraveled is more concerning than things you would expect in a typical an up and down season and has shown that issues exist at all levels which are impacting us:

 

1. The Board

No doubt it is very hard to rebuild every summer. Getting deals done is an elongated process. Do I think the board have made the most of the means they had at their disposal? No - and I think this summer we saw other teams of our size make a more committed financial investment to their team and that bridges any gap we had established for ourselves in previous seasons. Have those teams done it at risk? I don't know - but enough of them did it to make me think they can't all be taking risks. Does spending money guarantee success? No. Will you have success if you don't invest? No. We finally invested in the striker we needed 6 months too late and at a time when we needed to invest in a defender. I don't think trying is good enough - you need to get deals done as the product on the pitch is what matters most. I absolutely understand that you can't replace a great player with a great player. But you need to make the most of the means you have at your disposal. I don't think we have. Is there a wider agenda at play here impacting investment? Is Les Reed working under restricted circumstances?

 

2. The Management

I have some sympathy with Puel. I think the players he has been given off the back of last season are inadequate and are not suitable for his way of playing. In addition the games have come thick and fast so the opportunity to address certain things is limited (but does exist). I don't mind his tactics too much - they have some logic to them on paper. But they do not appear to be suitable for the players or our league. They rely on a specific set of circumstances in the game and when those circumstances don't exist we seem lost as a team. That's really bad. We're awful at chasing games and too cautious when we have the lead. It's a bit naive. Where is the game management? What I haven't seen is any attempt to adapt and we're now 38 games deep into this season. Isn't that more than enough time to be clever enough to work things out? Or is it just going to be the same old story every game?

 

3. The Players

I've not witnessed such poor body language between the players since we went down to League 1. They play like strangers, they are at pains to point out mistakes to each other and overall spirit seems lacking. We're a momentum team and it seems heads go down too easily, most notably when we concede. Where is the backbone and resiliency? This then manifests itself into how we play and players passing sideways as no-one wants to do something wrong. There is an issue here. I think there is some talent in the squad but we do not play to strengths and we increasingly allow opponents to exploit weaknesses. It's a recipe for disaster. We must be coached and managed better. What we see on the pitch is less than the total parts on it - even if recruitment has been iffy recently.

 

4. The Takeover

Who knows what is happening here but it is clearly unsettling. You have all sorts of rumours coming out about it and it is definitely impacting the club - and I would suggest the team either directly or indirectly.

 

So, poor recruitment, inflexible management and little team spirit all with a takeover hanging over the club. Not a great set of circumstances.

 

You may argue that if you 'solve' one of these things then the others are also solved. I don't think it is as clear cut as that. I don't think we'll go down. As a supporter I know we don't have a divine right to success and I know we've had it good in recent times. The 'we used to be in League 1' rhetoric is a complete cop-out - you have to judge the season on its own merits. This season I think too many mistakes have been made and it's absolutely fine to point it out and say it's unacceptable if you think they could have been avoided. I think some key ones could have been avoided. For example, bad luck is losing VVD to injury. An avoidable mistake is failing to get cover for him in the same month we sold Fonte. It gives the fans the impression the club are not ambitious or just plain incompetent. It's annoying. Fans don't like being lied to and having expectations mismanaged. You want to get rid of Fonte for whatever reason but assure us he'll be replaced - fine, we'll trust your judgement no matter what our emotional investment in the player. You want to then fail to replace him and watch our season adversely impacted - that will get fans backs up and we have every right to be ****ed off.

 

Things can get better this season without drastic change (somehow we can win a cup!) but hopefully this summer the club has the nous to assess and address purposefully or at the very least will start treating the fans with more respect when it comes to its transparency promise.

 

There are a few positives this season and we shouldn't forget them, but the overall feeling is that we're going backwards because of lots of issues and some of it we've brought on ourselves and that is very frustrating given the position we were in last summer.

Good post BUT! A good manager would be able to motivate, adapt and move forward with these players after 38 games as you say. I feel for Puel but I dont think he is that manager. REED must take equal amounts of Blame, for this situation. Not just PUEL!!

As for the board, are they just making the books look good, for any potential takeover. IE: Poor transfer windows!!

Edited 4 February, 2017 by SOTONS EAST SIDE

[DuncanRG]

Really good post, thanks for making it. You've struck upon something about the team spirit, which is clearly not what it used to be. We can all speculate on the precise causes but you have look at the manager. There are clearly some players who are frustrated by being moved in and out of the team, but there might be other things going on as well.

 

The 'we used to be in League 1' rhetoric is a complete cop-out - you have to judge the season on its own merits.

 

Pointing out how far we've come has its uses when those who made it happen come under attack. It's important to set failures like January against the huge amount of credit they've earnt over the years.

 

It's always worth casting your mind back to the fans' expectations for the season, as you allude to. There were plenty who were happy to languish in midtable in exchange for a cup run. It doesn't feel so rosy when you have to live through the poor results, especially with the football on offer, but there you go. Win the cup and it's one of our greatest years ever.

[pluto]

I would also add to the list that due to so many players leaving in a short time it's made other players consider their futures. Let's not be naive there could well be more departures in the summer. Van djik being the main one but I would add Rodrigues, Cedric and Bertrand.

[manji]

Bloody good post with a refreshing amount lack of bed wetting. I have always considered my self a loyalist even during the Lowe years . I think the Sheeva game was the first time I questioned our direction. There are a lot of teams under performing at the moment but I have for a long time expected a slow but measured improvement but today I witnessed a clueless performance, We have got a wealth of quality players here ( I admit injury isnt helping) but there was a lack of unity and direction. The transfer window was handled appallingly.

I think Reed has to take a lot of blame you cannot build a team each season then gut it for profit each summer we have got away with it for a while but it is clearly failing. Some of you will be going "noo Schitt" but when I start doubting our progress well. I have been proud of our progress (as I say even under Lowe) but it was heartbreaking for me to realise we are going nowhere fast. Even if we are lucky enough to win the EFL I will have considered this season a complete waste.

[dellboysaint]

Really good post, thanks for making it. You've struck upon something about the team spirit, which is clearly not what it used to be. We can all speculate on the precise causes but you have look at the manager. There are clearly some players who are frustrated by being moved in and out of the team, but there might be other things going on as well.

 

 

 

Pointing out how far we've come has its uses when those who made it happen come under attack. It's important to set failures like January against the huge amount of credit they've earnt over the years.

 

It's always worth casting your mind back to the fans' expectations for the season, as you allude to. There were plenty who were happy to languish in midtable in exchange for a cup run. It doesn't feel so rosy when you have to live through the poor results, especially with the football on offer, but there you go. Win the cup and it's one of our greatest years ever.

 

I would add complacency to the list of issues. Fonte was certain to leave but no replacement was found. Puel was a 'safe' choice but is out of his depth. The board have to be more aggressive and ambitious otherwise it is the championship. Pardew was a good choice in League 1 and he signed Fonte and Lambert - thanks to Cortese who HAD AMBITION.

[Dalek2003]

Excellent post by the OP. However, there has been complacency setting in for about three years now, despite our good form in previous seasons. Koeman could see this and I am sure that is why he left.

[S-Clarke]

This is a good post, makes a lot of sense. I think the club as a whole have taken their eye off the ball somewhat this year, whatever is going on in the background with regards to investment/takeover is certainly unsettling and it's causing a little less direction from the top as we're probably in a bit of limbo.

 

I think we're probably the most arrogant club in the league, we seem to believe we're automatically better at doing things than anyone else. But we're not. We're as vulnerable as anyone else and I think people at the club have believed their own strap-lines too much this season and have actually taken their eye off what is an incredibly competitive league.

 

There is a basis of a good team here which is being hindered in a couple of places.

 

A lack of a creative force in the middle of the park to play between the lines, the midfield and attack are too far apart. The suffocation being placed upon large parts of our team. There is a lack of ambition in our play this year which is seemingly following down from the club as a whole.

[LGTL]

This is a good post, makes a lot of sense. I think the club as a whole have taken their eye off the ball somewhat this year, whatever is going on in the background with regards to investment/takeover is certainly unsettling and it's causing a little less direction from the top as we're probably in a bit of limbo.

 

I think we're probably the most arrogant club in the league, we seem to believe we're automatically better at doing things than anyone else. But we're not. We're as vulnerable as anyone else and I think people at the club have believed their own strap-lines too much this season and have actually taken their eye off what is an incredibly competitive league.

 

There is a basis of a good team here which is being hindered in a couple of places.

 

A lack of a creative force in the middle of the park to play between the lines, the midfield and attack are too far apart. The suffocation being placed upon large parts of our team. There is a lack of ambition in our play this year which is seemingly following down from the club as a whole.

 

Spot on. I can see why so many fans in this league despise us.

[adrian lord]

...there has been complacency setting in for about three years now... Koeman could see this and I am sure that is why he left.

 

Yes. Ron saw through Reed's Champions' League guff and all the cringey Mission Statement stuff.

[Dangermouth]

Whenever I post too soon after a loss it's usually a bit whiney as I am annoyed at losing. So I've waited a few hours to post these thoughts - as much to see if anyone else feels the same way as it is it to vent a little.

 

*snip*

 

A few of us have thought this no doubt as it's very unlikely to be just one reason and we're not privy to what does happen behind closed doors. I think there are a few more factors than you mention (the 'new direction' for example?) and some have more weight than others e.g Black and Puel and rotation will affect the players more than a possible takeover. I liked Puel, now I no longer do so let's leave him at that. I was concerned about Black because he has an awful record and without going into reasons it's bad enough to be happy to see the back of him. I think the coaching and way the team is told to play annoys them and there are a number of things that annoy the players hence their arguing with each other and not being a cohesive unit so that's more a symptom than a cause. The same could be true for Fonte and he's always come across well so it would/could require a great change in his character to get him to be as he has been stated to be.

 

Someone made the point about how poor league form is relative to cup form and suggested that the latter was good because the players had the opportunity to win something (when they played against Liverpool) so they wouldn't let that drop but otherwise the league form is poor because they're ****ed off at a number of things. This occurred to me also although we were quite lucky that Liverpool both didn't quite show up and played in front of us as well as missed a number of chances that would have swung things heavily in their favour.

 

So while I agree with you, other than stating the obvious I think that commenting on such things is largely pointless (bit like us in the form table almost) because so much of it still is speculative because the club now keep things under wraps so well. What is interesting in that regard, however, is that there have still been rumours that have escaped and that these are largely negative (Rodriguez wants to leave, etc) which is another departure from how SFC have been over the last few years. Like you many of us expected the season to be 'less successful' than last year although I still think RK underachieved both seasons with us but unlike you I thought we'd be closer to the bottom than the top. I did, and still do however, expect us to win silverware. By the same token I do expect that Boufal will be fit for the final (but not Sunderland ... these niggly 'knocks', eh?) and that ManU will turn up with the intention of doing a thoroughly professional job on us and they will not be as poor/unlucky as Liverpool were.

 

Finally, does anyone remember the game that Stephens played in for Swindon against Sheff U a couple of years ago? The one that ended 5-5 (I think) and where his failings as a defender were somewhat exposed? Has he addressed these or should we look to move him into midfield? If anyone wants to look they're not dissimilar to those levied against McCarthy by the Walsall fans when he joined them and played CB although now as a RB he is considered as possibly being good enough for the league above them.

[UpweySaint]

Very good post. It may sound awful but, EFL cup aside, I am wishing this season away. I have fears but believe there are at least three sides worse than us but expect a bottom half finish (even if we have some kinder fixtures coming up). As others have suggested this season has felt like an unfortunate waste and, while we can't expect continued improvement, the season has promised much but failed to deliver.

 

Not sure if I am alone but already thinking about the summer and how things could look next season. The optimist in me says only VVD leaves, we replace well with two good CBs,find a driving centre mid (think Davis with power and goals) and Puel has more time to develop his ideas with the squad. I don't know if I believe Puel can do better but I really do hope he can. We might also see Stephens, Sims, McQueen, Prowse and more as established, and effective, players in the first team.