Les Reed

[danjosaint]

Another baffling decision from Les, keep em coming

[Heisenberg]

Another baffling decision from Les, keep em coming

 

Completely incompetent. Amazed I still get surprised by his crap

[Ultimatt]

A relegation scare will hopefully be the wake up call that their strategy the last few years won't work. The board have started believing their hype so much they've lost the plot.

 

"The Southampton Way" is to unearth smaller profile managers that are unemployed/cheap.

"The Southampton Way" is to find out of favour players with potential for cheap.

"The Southampton Way" is promoting staff/coaches internally for cheap.

"The Southampton Way" is using academy kids because they're cheap.

 

In other words "The Southampton Way" is PR bs for being cheapskates everywhere possible.

 

The boards gone too corporate, running the club like a multinational trying to cost-cut and maximise profits in all areas. It's a super dangerous game when all other clubs are investing more on field that we are. The premier league is a case study of the Red Queen Hypothesis; teams need to constantly improve in order to stand still. When the new Sky deal started all the teams around us spent, some spent really big, yet we actually made transfer profit ??? This season we've made profit again with the VVD sale doubling the Hoedt/Lemina fees. They're seriously daft if they think they can be cheap and finish top half, it's just not possible.

[Matthew Le God]

A relegation scare will hopefully be the wake up call that their strategy the last few years won't work. The board have started believing their hype so much they've lost the plot.

 

"The Southampton Way" is to unearth smaller profile managers that are unemployed/cheap.

"The Southampton Way" is to find out of favour players with potential for cheap.

"The Southampton Way" is promoting staff/coaches internally for cheap.

"The Southampton Way" is using academy kids because they're cheap.

 

In other words "The Southampton Way" is PR bs for being cheapskates everywhere possible.

 

The boards gone too corporate, running the club like a multinational trying to cost-cut and maximise profits in all areas. It's a super dangerous game when all other clubs are investing more on field that we are. The premier league is a case study of the Red Queen Hypothesis; teams need to constantly improve in order to stand still. When the new Sky deal started all the teams around us spent, some spent really big, yet we actually made transfer profit ??? This season we've made profit again with the VVD sale doubling the Hoedt/Lemina fees. They're seriously daft if they think they can be cheap and finish top half, it's just not possible.

 

 

You appear unaware Saints have among the most expensively assembled squads in world football and among the largest wage bills in world football. That isn't "cheap"!

[CB Fry]

A relegation scare will hopefully be the wake up call that their strategy the last few years won't work. The board have started believing their hype so much they've lost the plot.

 

"The Southampton Way" is to unearth smaller profile managers that are unemployed/cheap.

"The Southampton Way" is to find out of favour players with potential for cheap.

"The Southampton Way" is promoting staff/coaches internally for cheap.

"The Southampton Way" is using academy kids because they're cheap.

 

In other words "The Southampton Way" is PR bs for being cheapskates everywhere possible.

 

The boards gone too corporate, running the club like a multinational trying to cost-cut and maximise profits in all areas. It's a super dangerous game when all other clubs are investing more on field that we are. The premier league is a case study of the Red Queen Hypothesis; teams need to constantly improve in order to stand still. When the new Sky deal started all the teams around us spent, some spent really big, yet we actually made transfer profit ??? This season we've made profit again with the VVD sale doubling the Hoedt/Lemina fees. They're seriously daft if they think they can be cheap and finish top half, it's just not possible.

Jesus wept.

[Ultimatt]

 

You appear unaware Saints have among the most expensively assembled squads in world football and among the largest wage bills in world football. That isn't "cheap"!

 

Uhh... only because we've had to replace almost our entire starting XI in the last few years when prices have skyrocketed (and we sold them for more than we bought the replacements for).. You appear unaware our club record transfer fee is still below £20m. Name one player/manager we've splashed out big for.

 

Our sales in the last few years:

VVD 71m

Mane 37m

Shaw 34m

Schneiderlin 30.5m

Lallana 28m

Lovren 23m

Chambers 18m

Clyne 16m

Pelle 14m

Wanyama 13m

JRod 12m

Fonte 8m

Lambert 5m

Juanmi 4.5m

 

Total out = £314m

 

Transfers in:

Boufal 17m

Gabbi 15m

Lemina 15m

Hoedt 15m

VVD 14m

Ramirez 14m

Osvaldo 14m

Clasie 13.5m

Hojbjerg 13.5m

Long 13m

Wanyama 13m

Tadic 13m

Mane 12m

Redmond 12m

Bertrand 12m

Forster 11m

Pelle 10m

Lovren 9m

JRod 8m

Cedric 6m

Juanmi 6m

Romeu 6m

Gardos 6m

Bednarek 5m

 

Total in = £273m

 

We have more "depth" now but have we ever paid overs to really get our man?

Edited 29 December, 2017 by Ultimatt

[CB Fry]

Uhh... only because we've had to replace almost our entire starting XI in the last few years when prices have skyrocketed (and we sold them for more than we bought the replacements for).. You appear unaware our club record transfer fee is still below £20m. Name one player/manager we've splashed out big for.

 

Our sales in the last few years:

VVD 71m

Mane 37m

Shaw 34m

Schneiderlin 30.5m

Lallana 28m

Lovren 23m

Chambers 18m

Clyne 16m

Pelle 14m

Wanyama 13m

JRod 12m

Fonte 8m

Lambert 5m

Juanmi 4.5m

 

Total out = £314m

 

Transfers in:

Boufal 17m

Gabbi 15m

Lemina 15m

Hoedt 15m

VVD 14m

Ramirez 14m

Osvaldo 14m

Clasie 13.5m

Hojbjerg 13.5m

Long 13m

Wanyama 13m

Tadic 13m

Mane 12m

Redmond 12m

Bertrand 12m

Forster 11m

Pelle 10m

Lovren 9m

JRod 8m

Cedric 6m

Juanmi 6m

Romeu 6m

Gardos 6m

Bednarek 5m

 

Total in = £273m

 

We have more "depth" now but have we ever paid overs to really get our man?

 

Fu ck me when are these people going actually let it go with dinlow lists with Adam Lallana and Luke Shaw on it? Jesus Christ.

 

Some of us have actually got on with our lives since that happened. I've moved house and everything.

 

We have an expensively assembled and salaried squad- the most recent figures have us in the top ten for both.

 

Fair enough to say we are underachieving because we are, but we're underachieving in the context of the fact we have spent plenty on fees and wages. We've spent it unwisely in places but mainly on management rather than playing staff.

 

We've got expensive players all over the pitch and on the bench and high wages and long contracts all over the fu cking shop.

 

You seem to be having an argument from the Rupert Lowe era.

 

And the idea that what you actually WANT us to do is to pay "over the odds" - knowingly paying more than a player is actually worth - just so you can wa nk yourself off in front of Sky Sports News - just shows how demented some football fans are.

 

Fingers crossed we spunk £40m on Jack Wilshire just to make you happy.

 

Meanwhile, Burnley are 7th.

Edited 29 December, 2017 by CB Fry

[Saint86]

Fu ck me when are these people going actually let it go with dinlow lists with Adam Lallana and Luke Shaw on it? Jesus Christ.

 

Some of us have actually got on with our lives since that happened. I've moved house and everything.

 

We have an expensively assembled and salaried squad- the most recent figures have us in the top ten for both.

 

Fair enough to say we are underachieving because we are, but we're underachieving in the context of the fact we have spent plenty on fees and wages. We've spent it unwisely in places but mainly on management rather than playing staff.

 

We've got expensive players all over the pitch and on the bench and high wages and long contracts all over the fu cking shop.

 

You seem to be having an argument from the Rupert Lowe era.

 

And the idea that what you actually WANT us to do is to pay "over the odds" - knowingly paying more than a player is actually worth - just so you can wa nk yourself off in front of Sky Sports News - just shows how demented some football fans are.

 

Fingers crossed we spunk £40m on Jack Wilshire just to make you happy.

 

Meanwhile, Burnley are 7th.

 

Are you incapable of handling any opinion but your own without scorn and disrespect?

[Saint_clark]

Agree with this. What was stopping us saying to Liverpool: "ok, he's yours for £75m, but on the condition that nothing is disclosed / announced until we've got our signings done and dusted"? Surely, given how desperate they were to sign him, we were in the driving seat?

What a ridiculous thing to criticise the club about. Liverpool will want him to play from January as soon as possible, so they're not going to hold off on announcing it and being able to play him.

 

Sent from my SM-J330FN using Tapatalk

[trousers]

What a ridiculous thing to criticise the club about. Liverpool will want him to play from January as soon as possible, so they're not going to hold off on announcing it and being able to play him.

 

Sent from my SM-J330FN using Tapatalk

I didn't mean it as a criticism per se. Was just wondering (out loud on an internet football forum) what would have happened if we'd said to Liverpool: "Ok, go on then, you can have him but the deal happens in the 2nd week of January (for example) to give us time to negotiate deals on a couple of players we're looking at bringing in without alerting their current clubs to us having £75m to play with".

 

I was just speculating that, giving how desperate Liverpool appear to sign him, would they really have turned around and said: "no, bugger off, it's 1st Jan or nothing"? I would venture that would hardly have been the response of a club desperate to sign him.

 

That said, perhaps I'm just being naive (as well as "ridiculous"...). First time for everything

Edited 30 December, 2017 by trousers

[shirleysfc]

Are you incapable of handling any opinion but your own without scorn and disrespect?

 

He is right though...

[danjosaint]

I didn't mean it as a criticism per se. Was just wondering (out loud on an internet football forum) what would have happened if we'd said to Liverpool: "Ok, go on then, you can have him but the deal happens in the 2nd week of January (for example) to give us time to negotiate deals on a couple of players we're looking at bringing in without alerting their current clubs to us having £75m to play with".

 

I was just speculating that, giving how desperate Liverpool appear to sign him, would they really have turned around and said: "no, bugger off, it's 1st Jan or nothing"? I would venture that would hardly have been the response of a club desperate to sign him.

 

That said, perhaps I'm just being naive (as well as "ridiculous"...). First time for everything

 

Same as mane, let him go to early in window

[Heisenberg]

Are you incapable of handling any opinion but your own without scorn and disrespect?

 

If SWF was a movie CBF would be Shia LaBeouf, kinda sweary, intoxicated, nonsensical.

 

He is not cut out for forums but probably got punched alot down the pub.

 

He wants you (everyone) to forget about Les Reeds immediate contributions - losing Pochettino, losing Mitchell, selling Shaw, Lovren, Lambert, Lallana, Chambers, Cork. He wants you to forget (or very least don't mention) the F-up with Alderweireld the cheap selling of Mane and Wanyama, the purchases of Clasie, Hojberg, Juanmi ect ect forget all this..... Forget about it, don't mention it as CBF has moved on

 

Just like Shia LaBeouf CBF needs a reboot.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Completely incompetent. Amazed I still get surprised by his crap

 

Really hope he stays forever just to irritate you just like you irritate us

with your trolling

Good work Les;)

[Pamplemousse]

Glasgow is triggered

[kermitsaint]

 

You appear unaware Saints have among the most expensively assembled squads in world football and among the largest wage bills in world football. That isn't "cheap"!

Yet our squad gets worse with each sale and each manager .

 

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

[Chewy]

If SWF was a movie CBF would be Shia LaBeouf, kinda sweary, intoxicated, nonsensical.

 

He is not cut out for forums but probably got punched alot down the pub.

 

He wants you (everyone) to forget about Les Reeds immediate contributions - losing Pochettino, losing Mitchell, selling Shaw, Lovren, Lambert, Lallana, Chambers, Cork. He wants you to forget (or very least don't mention) the F-up with Alderweireld the cheap selling of Mane and Wanyama, the purchases of Clasie, Hojberg, Juanmi ect ect forget all this..... Forget about it, don't mention it as CBF has moved on

 

Just like Shia LaBeouf CBF needs a reboot.

 

I didn't realise Shia labeouf was an actual movie? Now if you were a movie character, you'd be wormtongue from lord of the rings. An annoying, tedious minor baddy, busy trying to poison minds, no chance with a woman, and easily forgotten. And there's no way you'd ever go to a pub, you'd get your arise kicked in 5 minutes.

 

As for the list of people he lost, you're conveniently forgetting that he found most of them in the first place, sold them all for a handsome profit while continuing to oversee our rise from league one to Europe. Last year was the first backward step in almost a decade and we slipped to 8th in the premier league.

 

You're also conveniently forgetting that he didn't exactly "lose" them. I seem to remember most of them wanted to leave, many of them acting like d1ck heads in order to push it through. But of course you need to forget that because it doesn't suit your anti saints agenda.

 

Go and reboot yourself on the golf course. For about 10 years.

[eelpie]

 

You appear unaware Saints have among the most expensively assembled squads in world football and among the largest wage bills in world football. That isn't "cheap"!

 

He was referring to the long lamented Southampton Way which since Cortese left was replaced with Read's ' My Way' which is to make poor decisions. We may be an expensively assembled squad, but the components do not work together as well as they should.

[Ultimatt]

Fu ck me when are these people going actually let it go with dinlow lists with Adam Lallana and Luke Shaw on it? Jesus Christ.

 

Some of us have actually got on with our lives since that happened. I've moved house and everything.

 

We have an expensively assembled and salaried squad- the most recent figures have us in the top ten for both.

 

Fair enough to say we are underachieving because we are, but we're underachieving in the context of the fact we have spent plenty on fees and wages. We've spent it unwisely in places but mainly on management rather than playing staff.

 

We've got expensive players all over the pitch and on the bench and high wages and long contracts all over the fu cking shop.

 

You seem to be having an argument from the Rupert Lowe era.

 

And the idea that what you actually WANT us to do is to pay "over the odds" - knowingly paying more than a player is actually worth - just so you can wa nk yourself off in front of Sky Sports News - just shows how demented some football fans are.

 

Fingers crossed we spunk £40m on Jack Wilshire just to make you happy.

 

Meanwhile, Burnley are 7th.

Such a long post. Sadly for you its based on a completely wrong assumption on what i actually want. Where did i say i want us to pay overs?

 

Also, how can you just ignore Lallana/Shaw when they were both sold under Reed. Why can't they be mentioned when we're rating Reed. Should we just judge him on the last 12 months? Last 3 months? Please let us all know what the acceptable period is before we continue this thread. We'll all be in your debt.

 

Here's what i want. For us to stop with this "depth" nonsense because we don't need a squad built for Europe. We need first XI quality. Why are we buying all these out of form/out of favor players that then spend half the time on the bench? Why did we give our entire squad big payrises and 5 year contracts regardless of whether they're actually a player in demand by a big club or a perennial bench player?

 

Our 2 best signings of recent years were Mane and VVD. 2 players that were guaranteed starters that dominated their leagues. Pelle was a somewhat limited player yet came to us on the back of incredible form and consistently scored here. Austin is the same with a history of consistent goalscoring. Yet the club seems to prefer players like Redmond/Gabbi/Hoedt who have never at any point in their careers been dominant and all struggled for game time at their last club. They weren't getting picked for a reason... if a players not good enough for other mid/lower table teams on what planet do our board think they'll be good for us? This is the cheap nonsense i have a problem with.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[themasoon]

For all the stick Les Reed is getting (and yes I dont like the Pellegrino appointment) most of our signings are a success, especially the last couple of windows, and I can't think of any other club in the premier league where in the last few years 2 of our managers have been poached by bigger clubs.

 

Also, the Puel appointment made a lot of sense and ticked all the boxes initially it just didn't work out but I do believe that's Pellegrino is a bad choice and I'm sure the board will only be waiting as they may believe they can get a much better manager in the summer than mid way through the season.

 

Les Reed has done a lot for us and yes he has made mistakes but he has been far more successful than most directors of football given the circumstances and we still continually find and sign top players. We just need the next manager to be good to get the best out of a very good squad.

 

Les Reed is not the problem, Pellegrino is.

[CB Fry]

Such a long post. Sadly for you its based on a completely wrong assumption on what i actually want. Where did i say i want us to pay overs?

 

Also, how can you just ignore Lallana/Shaw when they were both sold under Reed. Why can't they be mentioned when we're rating Reed. Should we just judge him on the last 12 months? Last 3 months? Please let us all know what the acceptable period is before we continue this thread. We'll all be in your debt.

 

Here's what i want. For us to stop with this "depth" nonsense because we don't need a squad built for Europe. We need first XI quality. Why are we buying all these out of form/out of favor players that then spend half the time on the bench? Why did we give our entire squad big payrises and 5 year contracts regardless of whether they're actually a player in demand by a big club or a perennial bench player?

 

Our 2 best signings of recent years were Mane and VVD. 2 players that were guaranteed starters that dominated their leagues. Pelle was a somewhat limited player yet came to us on the back of incredible form and consistently scored here. Austin is the same with a history of consistent goalscoring. Yet the club seems to prefer players like Redmond/Gabbi/Hoedt who have never at any point in their careers been dominant and all struggled for game time at their last club. They weren't getting picked for a reason... if a players not good enough for other mid/lower table teams on what planet do our board think they'll be good for us? This is the cheap nonsense i have a problem with.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

Let's just work through this. So, when did you say you wanted us to pay "overs"? Well, there is the post I replied to in the first place- remember, this one:

 

You appear unaware our club record transfer fee is still below £20m. Name one player/manager we've splashed out big for.

 

We have more "depth" now but have we ever paid overs to really get our man?

 

So apologies I obviously misread this, I thought you were complaining but obviously now I see you were praising the club because you don't want us to pay "overs" and you've never said you wanted us to. Great, we agree, Les pays good prices for the players we get in.

 

The rest of the post is drivel.

 

Why are you describing Gabbiadini and Hoedt as "not good enough for other mid/lower table teams" when we signed them from the 4th and 5th placed teams in Serie A? We also signed Lemina from the Champions of Italy, is that high enough above mid table for you? Hojberg came from middle ranking minnows Bayern Munich but fair enough he had been at Shalke in the depths of mid table middleness in 5th place.

 

In the world rankings of teams I reckon Lazio and Napoli easily outrank Celtic and Red Bull Saltzberg but what you're saying is you want us to only sign players from sh it leagues. Fair enough, it's an opinion.

 

And you are describing Gabbiadini, Hoedt and Lemina as "cheap nonsense" when two of them represent our record signing at the time and they all represent our record for their positions: you really ain't so bright.

 

Also, they all cost much more than Austin, Pelle, Mane and VVD, the four players you have singled out as our best signings. All signed in the Reed era as well.

 

Frankly you're all over the shop. Keep blubbering about Adam Lallana though.

Edited 31 December, 2017 by CB Fry

[Heisenberg]

Shia LaBeouf getting triggered

[baggytrousers]

Shia LaBeouf getting triggered

 

Wormtongue has crawled out of his lair

[Donatello]

You appear unaware our club record transfer fee is still below £20m. Name one player/manager we've splashed out big for.

We have more "depth" now but have we ever paid overs to really get our man?

 

So apologies I obviously misread this, I thought you were complaining but obviously now I see you were praising the club because you don't want us to pay "overs" and you've never said you wanted us to. Great, we agree, Les pays good prices for the players we get in.

 

Ha, rekt. In fact, that entire post is a mauling.

[Toadhall Saint]

Wormtongue has crawled out of his lair

 

[emoji23]

[shurlock]

Shia LaBeouf getting triggered

 

Got a favourite Shia Labeouf film, pal?

[Dusic]

Amazed Reed gets the amount of stick he does.

 

Has done a lot of great things at Saints. There is of course frustrstion at some decisions etc but only because our standards and expectations are now higher.

 

Be careful what you wish for. At least we have a plan most of the time and a clear enough identity. Many other clubs have neither.

[trousers]

Amazed Reed gets the amount of stick he does.

 

Has done a lot of great things at Saints. There is of course frustrstion at some decisions etc but only because our standards and expectations are now higher.

 

Be careful what you wish for. At least we have a plan most of the time and a clear enough identity. Many other clubs have neither.

Mods - please can we have less of this pragmatism on the SaintWeb forum? I come on here for the knee jerk reactionary stuff and posts like this are most disconcerting. Thanks

[Lets B Avenue]

Mods - please can we have less of this pragmatism on the SaintWeb forum? I come on here for the knee jerk reactionary stuff and posts like this are most disconcerting. Thanks

 

You need to go on one of those sites where the Trolls roam free. No such liberties allowed on this well-moderated site.

[angelman]

You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.

[Nordic Saint]

The same way that he decided to get rid of Lambert and Fonte because they were too old for him he has to retire because he is too old for us. Let's look to the future. Paul Mitchell in !

[GarrettIvo]

Let's just work through this. So, when did you say you wanted us to pay "overs"? Well, there is the post I replied to in the first place- remember, this one:

 

 

 

So apologies I obviously misread this, I thought you were complaining but obviously now I see you were praising the club because you don't want us to pay "overs" and you've never said you wanted us to. Great, we agree, Les pays good prices for the players we get in.

 

The rest of the post is drivel.

 

Why are you describing Gabbiadini and Hoedt as "not good enough for other mid/lower table teams" when we signed them from the 4th and 5th placed teams in Serie A? We also signed Lemina from the Champions of Italy, is that high enough above mid table for you? Hojberg came from middle ranking minnows Bayern Munich but fair enough he had been at Shalke in the depths of mid table middleness in 5th place.

 

In the world rankings of teams I reckon Lazio and Napoli easily outrank Celtic and Red Bull Saltzberg but what you're saying is you want us to only sign players from sh it leagues. Fair enough, it's an opinion.

 

And you are describing Gabbiadini, Hoedt and Lemina as "cheap nonsense" when two of them represent our record signing at the time and they all represent our record for their positions: you really ain't so bright.

 

Also, they all cost much more than Austin, Pelle, Mane and VVD, the four players you have singled out as our best signings. All signed in the Reed era as well.

 

Frankly you're all over the shop. Keep blubbering about Adam Lallana though.

 

[Ultimatt]

Let's just work through this. So, when did you say you wanted us to pay "overs"? Well, there is the post I replied to in the first place- remember, this one:

 

"We have more "depth" now but have we ever paid overs to really get our man?"

 

So apologies I obviously misread this, I thought you were complaining but obviously now I see you were praising the club because you don't want us to pay "overs" and you've never said you wanted us to. Great, we agree, Les pays good prices for the players we get in.

 

So apologies but when I said "When did I want us to pay overs" I was referring to your ridiculous strawman "LETS SPEND $40M ON WILSHERE!". My mistake. A sensible person that doesn't constantly resort to strawman arguments would read that as paying $2m compensation to get our target manager instead of fishing through only unemployed applicants, or spending the £500k/pa on a quality coach/staff instead of promoting internally on the cheap, or targeting players that have just had solid seasons rather than ones that have sat on the bench for a year and are surplus to their clubs.

 

"Why are you describing Gabbiadini and Hoedt as "not good enough for other mid/lower table teams" when we signed them from the 4th and 5th placed teams in Serie A?"[/Quote]

 

Because 5th place Serie A is mid table EPL right now. The Milan's have been struggling for years. Roma is in and out of CL knockouts. Teams like Fiorentina or Napoli have the odd good season. But really it's only Juve carrying the flag on a European level.

As for them not being good enough, maybe you know a different reason why they both sat on the bench rather than being 1st choice? They weren't good enough for their last teams.

 

We also signed Lemina from the Champions of Italy, is that high enough above mid table for you? Hojberg came from middle ranking minnows Bayern Munich but fair enough he had been at Shalke in the depths of mid table middleness in 5th place.

 

Strawman #2. I specifically said signings from mid/lower table sides and specifically didn't mention Hoj or Lemina. There's no shame at all for a player to not make the grade at Bayern or Juve. It's a different story not making the grade at Norwich/Napoli/Lazio.

 

In the world rankings of teams I reckon Lazio and Napoli easily outrank Celtic and Red Bull Saltzberg but what you're saying is you want us to only sign players from sh it leagues. Fair enough, it's an opinion.

 

Strawman #3. I thought I quite clearly said I wanted us to sign players that "dominated their leagues the last season" as opposed to players that spent a year sitting on the pine. On one hand you have players full of confidence showing off their talent week-on-week vs players struggling for game time and stalling their development.

 

And you are describing Gabbiadini, Hoedt and Lemina as "cheap nonsense" when two of them represent our record signing at the time and they all represent our record for their positions: you really ain't so bright. [/Quote]

 

Yet another misinterpretation. When did I mention Lemina? Strawman #4. Who's the one thats not bright? We went after Gabbi & Hoedt because their market value had fallen because they were out of favour at their clubs. That's become our MO the last few years. When we do that from a world class club like Bayern/Juve/Chelsea then there's some risk but likely some high potential in these players. When we start doing it with clubs of a similar size or heaven forbid a relegated Norwich then the alarm bells starting ringing for me.

 

Also, they all cost much more than Austin, Pelle, Mane and VVD, the four players you have singled out as our best signings. All signed in the Reed era as well.

 

Cost isn't the focus, market value is. We paid proper market value for these 4 players because they'd all been playing well in recent times (Austin injured with 6 months left meant QPR had a choice to have him for a handful more games or pocket £4m). Lo and behold all of them continued playing well when they signed here. Contrast that to our bargain bin buying and the results tell a different tale. Gabbi/Hoedt/Long/Redmond/McCarthy were all surplus at similar/smaller sized clubs and none of them have set the world on fire here. The club sees dollar signs when they buy a player in a trough. Low investment/low risk as their value can't fall much further meanwhile huge potential upswing. The glaring reality is that if a player isn't getting picked at a similar/smaller club because they're not good enough then chances are they won't be good enough here.

[Fan The Flames]

So apologies but when I said "When did I want us to pay overs" I was referring to your ridiculous strawman "LETS SPEND $40M ON WILSHERE!". My mistake. A sensible person that doesn't constantly resort to strawman arguments would read that as paying $2m compensation to get our target manager instead of fishing through only unemployed applicants, or spending the £500k/pa on a quality coach/staff instead of promoting internally on the cheap, or targeting players that have just had solid seasons rather than ones that have sat on the bench for a year and are surplus to their clubs.

 

His Whilshire comment was after your 'overs' comment.

 

So after a long list of players your comment was actually about managers and coaches as well, who would have thought it.

 

I don't know what a strawman argument is but I know what a **** argument Is, we have bought established players as well as players where value can be added. So I don't get what your point Is, the whole footballing world outside the top teams are all looking for players that are better than their current form suggests, that's why clubs all have recruitment teams now.

 

Maybe CB Fry is right, maybe if you just admit it you are after a big buy just for the buzz of it, for the fifteen minutes of fame on the SSN rolling banner.

[shurlock]

His Whilshire comment was after your 'overs' comment.

 

So after a long list of players your comment was actually about managers and coaches as well, who would have thought it.

 

I don't know what a strawman argument is but I know what a **** argument Is, we have bought established players as well as players where value can be added. So I don't get what your point Is, the whole footballing world outside the top teams are all looking for players that are better than their current form suggests, that's why clubs all have recruitment teams now.

 

Maybe CB Fry is right, maybe if you just admit it you are after a big buy just for the buzz of it, for the fifteen minutes of fame on the SSN rolling banner.

 

Disagree - we've generally stayed away from established and proven PL players, though, with everything, there are always exceptions. It's why links with a player like Walcott are such a breath of of fresh air.

Edited 1 January, 2018 by shurlock

[Heisenberg]

So apologies but when I said "When did I want us to pay overs" I was referring to your ridiculous strawman "LETS SPEND $40M ON WILSHERE!". My mistake. A sensible person that doesn't constantly resort to strawman arguments would read that as paying $2m compensation to get our target manager instead of fishing through only unemployed applicants, or spending the £500k/pa on a quality coach/staff instead of promoting internally on the cheap, or targeting players that have just had solid seasons rather than ones that have sat on the bench for a year and are surplus to their clubs.

 

 

 

Because 5th place Serie A is mid table EPL right now. The Milan's have been struggling for years. Roma is in and out of CL knockouts. Teams like Fiorentina or Napoli have the odd good season. But really it's only Juve carrying the flag on a European level.

As for them not being good enough, maybe you know a different reason why they both sat on the bench rather than being 1st choice? They weren't good enough for their last teams.

 

 

 

Strawman #2. I specifically said signings from mid/lower table sides and specifically didn't mention Hoj or Lemina. There's no shame at all for a player to not make the grade at Bayern or Juve. It's a different story not making the grade at Norwich/Napoli/Lazio.

 

 

 

Strawman #3. I thought I quite clearly said I wanted us to sign players that "dominated their leagues the last season" as opposed to players that spent a year sitting on the pine. On one hand you have players full of confidence showing off their talent week-on-week vs players struggling for game time and stalling their development.

 

 

 

Yet another misinterpretation. When did I mention Lemina? Strawman #4. Who's the one thats not bright? We went after Gabbi & Hoedt because their market value had fallen because they were out of favour at their clubs. That's become our MO the last few years. When we do that from a world class club like Bayern/Juve/Chelsea then there's some risk but likely some high potential in these players. When we start doing it with clubs of a similar size or heaven forbid a relegated Norwich then the alarm bells starting ringing for me.

 

 

 

Cost isn't the focus, market value is. We paid proper market value for these 4 players because they'd all been playing well in recent times (Austin injured with 6 months left meant QPR had a choice to have him for a handful more games or pocket £4m). Lo and behold all of them continued playing well when they signed here. Contrast that to our bargain bin buying and the results tell a different tale. Gabbi/Hoedt/Long/Redmond/McCarthy were all surplus at similar/smaller sized clubs and none of them have set the world on fire here. The club sees dollar signs when they buy a player in a trough. Low investment/low risk as their value can't fall much further meanwhile huge potential upswing. The glaring reality is that if a player isn't getting picked at a similar/smaller club because they're not good enough then chances are they won't be good enough here.

 

Mods - please can we have less of this honesty on the SaintWeb forum? I come on here for the happy clappy stuff and posts like this are most disconcerting. Thanks

[GarrettIvo]

 

Because 5th place Serie A is mid table EPL right now. The Milan's have been struggling for years. Roma is in and out of CL knockouts. Teams like Fiorentina or Napoli have the odd good season. But really it's only Juve carrying the flag on a European level.

As for them not being good enough, maybe you know a different reason why they both sat on the bench rather than being 1st choice? They weren't good enough for their last teams.

 

It's a different story not making the grade at Norwich/Napoli/Lazio.

 

When we start doing it with clubs of a similar size or heaven forbid a relegated Norwich then the alarm bells starting ringing for me.

 

 

You are not, in all seriousness, suggesting our football club is essentially similar in size to those in Rome and Milan.

[Ultimatt]

You are not, in all seriousness, suggesting our football club is essentially similar in size to those in Rome and Milan.

Obviously not in terms of history/prestige but we're similar financially thanks to Sky. Don't forget who we beat at the San Siro last season. They'll no doubt bounce back but the last few years have been a big lull for Italian football culminating in them missing their first world cup since the 50's

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Shroppie]

Obviously not in terms of history/prestige but we're similar financially thanks to Sky. Don't forget who we beat at the San Siro last season. They'll no doubt bounce back but the last few years have been a big lull for Italian football culminating in them missing their first world cup since the 50's

 

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We didn't beat anyone at the San Siro.

 

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[CB Fry]

So apologies but when I said "When did I want us to pay overs" I was referring to your ridiculous strawman "LETS SPEND $40M ON WILSHERE!". My mistake. A sensible person that doesn't constantly resort to strawman arguments would read that as paying $2m compensation to get our target manager instead of fishing through only unemployed applicants, or spending the £500k/pa on a quality coach/staff instead of promoting internally on the cheap, or targeting players that have just had solid seasons rather than ones that have sat on the bench for a year and are surplus to their clubs.

 

 

 

Because 5th place Serie A is mid table EPL right now. The Milan's have been struggling for years. Roma is in and out of CL knockouts. Teams like Fiorentina or Napoli have the odd good season. But really it's only Juve carrying the flag on a European level.

As for them not being good enough, maybe you know a different reason why they both sat on the bench rather than being 1st choice? They weren't good enough for their last teams.

 

 

 

Strawman #2. I specifically said signings from mid/lower table sides and specifically didn't mention Hoj or Lemina. There's no shame at all for a player to not make the grade at Bayern or Juve. It's a different story not making the grade at Norwich/Napoli/Lazio.

 

 

 

Strawman #3. I thought I quite clearly said I wanted us to sign players that "dominated their leagues the last season" as opposed to players that spent a year sitting on the pine. On one hand you have players full of confidence showing off their talent week-on-week vs players struggling for game time and stalling their development.

 

 

 

Yet another misinterpretation. When did I mention Lemina? Strawman #4. Who's the one thats not bright? We went after Gabbi & Hoedt because their market value had fallen because they were out of favour at their clubs. That's become our MO the last few years. When we do that from a world class club like Bayern/Juve/Chelsea then there's some risk but likely some high potential in these players. When we start doing it with clubs of a similar size or heaven forbid a relegated Norwich then the alarm bells starting ringing for me.

 

 

 

Cost isn't the focus, market value is. We paid proper market value for these 4 players because they'd all been playing well in recent times (Austin injured with 6 months left meant QPR had a choice to have him for a handful more games or pocket £4m). Lo and behold all of them continued playing well when they signed here. Contrast that to our bargain bin buying and the results tell a different tale. Gabbi/Hoedt/Long/Redmond/McCarthy were all surplus at similar/smaller sized clubs and none of them have set the world on fire here. The club sees dollar signs when they buy a player in a trough. Low investment/low risk as their value can't fall much further meanwhile huge potential upswing. The glaring reality is that if a player isn't getting picked at a similar/smaller club because they're not good enough then chances are they won't be good enough here.

 

So just to recap, you post about you do want/you don't want/you do want/you don't want us to pay "overs" by listing a great big list of players but you weren't talking about players after all but managers. Clear.

 

And now we learn that Lazio and Napoli, CL and Europa League regulars are clubs beneath us and Watford and Burnley and Leicester because mid table Premier League towers over 4th place Serie A and we shouldn't lower ourselves to sign their dreadful players from Napoli and Lazio who are the same level as relegated Norwich. Its an opinion. Clear.

 

And I must respect your right to drag up Adam Lallana and Luke Shaw because you were, like, assessing Les Reed's entire SFC career so how dare I suggest they're not really relevent now. But not relevant to the discussion are Mario Lemina or P-E Hojberg because they are merely players that we actually signed, are actually in the squad and will actually play for Southampton Football Club tomorrow. How dare I bring them into the debate without your permission.

 

Shaw/Lallana: relevant to discussion. Lemina/Hojberg: not relevant. Clear.

 

And lastly you have now described Gabbiadini, Hoedt and Shane Long as "bargain bin" signings. We've already covered the other two as our record signings for their positions for us so let's move on but hey, you're right about Shane Long because I distinctly remember the outrage at the tiny little fee we paid for bargain bin cheapo Shane Long And how everyone reacted to that tiny fee we paid for Shane Long.

 

I'll try and help you out. All I can see is you don't like the fact we signed Nathan Redmond and based on that premise you are trying build some bullsh it manifesto/magic formula that guarantees we only ever sign brilliant players and never sign bad players and we do and don't and do and don't pay "overs". Because all other football clubs have cracked that formula and only Les Reed gets it wrong.

 

But I can see you're struggling because you don't seem to have got much further than "don't sign Nathan Redmond". I'd turn it in if I were you.

 

Happy New Year.

[Ultimatt]

We didn't beat anyone at the San Siro.

 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

Played* sorry. Point stands. An Italian powerhouse in Inter Milan came dead last in Europe League group stages.

[CB Fry]

Disagree - we've generally stayed away from established and proven players, though, with everything, there are always exceptions. It's why links with a player like Walcott are such a breath of of fresh air.

I do agree with this - we have strayed a little too much into Eric Djemba-Djemba territory, where just because a player is not good enough for x big club, it doesn't mean they are good enough for us, it might be they just ain't no good.

 

However, our Djemba-Djembas are at least young. We haven't gone the full Sunderland yet.

 

Now VVD is gone and Davis is aging we do miss some authority especially with the mess we're in. We need a bit of experience and steel.

 

Walcott, the oldest young prospect in the world, may at least provide some experience. Not sure about steel though.

[Fan The Flames]

Disagree - we've generally stayed away from established and proven PL players, though, with everything, there are always exceptions. It's why links with a player like Walcott are such a breath of of fresh air.

 

FFS No one's mentioned established PL players, just established players - Wanyama, Forster, Clasie, VVD, Pelle, Tadic, Boufal, Mane were all established players in the teams we bought them from.

[Wade Garrett]

I do agree with this - we have strayed a little too much into Eric Djemba-Djemba territory, where just because a player is not good enough for x big club, it doesn't mean they are good enough for us, it might be they just ain't no good.

 

However, our Djemba-Djembas are at least young. We haven't gone the full Sunderland yet.

 

Now VVD is gone and Davis is aging we do miss some authority especially with the mess we're in. We need a bit of experience and steel.

 

Walcott, the oldest young prospect in the world, may at least provide some experience. Not sure about steel though.

 

Signing a few more experienced players would at least stop the merry-go-round of players looking to move on as soon as we sign them. That can't be good for the squad.

[Ultimatt]

So just to recap, you post about you do want/you don't want/you do want/you don't want us to pay "overs" by listing a great big list of players but you weren't talking about players after all but managers. Clear.

 

Oh my god you suck at comprehension. Holy f'ing ****. Let me quote exactly what I said again for you.

 

A sensible person that doesn't constantly resort to strawman arguments would read that as paying $2m compensation to get our target manager instead of fishing through only unemployed applicants, or spending the £500k/pa on a quality coach/staff instead of promoting internally on the cheap, or targeting players that have just had solid seasons rather than ones that have sat on the bench for a year and are surplus to their clubs.

 

And now we learn that Lazio and Napoli, CL and Europa League regulars are clubs beneath us

 

Gabbi/Hoedt/Long/Redmond/McCarthy were all surplus at similar/smaller sized clubs

 

And I must respect your right to drag up Adam Lallana and Luke Shaw because you were, like, assessing Les Reed's entire SFC career so how dare I suggest they're not really relevent now. But not relevant to the discussion are Mario Lemina or P-E Hojberg because they are merely players that we actually signed, are actually in the squad and will actually play for Southampton Football Club tomorrow. How dare I bring them into the debate without your permission.

 

Lmao. You and your f'ing strawmen. Not once have I said I have an issue with the Lemina/Hojbjerg signings. You just made up that I did to boost your own argument. I'm talking about the bargain bin buys from similar/smaller sized clubs. You can talk about Lemina/Hojbjerg as much as you like but it'll probably be in reply to someone else because I never mentioned them. Clear?

 

And lastly you have now described Gabbiadini, Hoedt and Shane Long as "bargain bin" signings. We've already covered the other two as our record signings for their positions for us so let's move on but hey, you're right about Shane Long because I distinctly remember the outrage at the tiny little fee we paid for bargain bin cheapo Shane Long And how everyone reacted to that tiny fee we paid for Shane Long.

 

Again, it's not about how much they cost, it's about their market value. The club wants to make profit on players. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. When we've got it right we've signed players that were clearly class where they were, came here and continued to be class and all moved on to better things once they proved themselves in the premier league.

On the other hand there's something seriously wrong with replacing our best players with players that can't even make it into similar/smaller sized clubs. We're replacing a probably world-class CB with a guy not good enough for Lazio. We're replacing a star in Mane with a guy that wasn't good enough for a relegated Norwich. Why don't we go for players that are on the up instead of on a career-down?

 

A signing like Boufal is a good example of what I want. We'll all agree he's been all-in-all dissapointing so far, but we can all clearly see his talent and why we signed him. He had a breakout season at Lille and has shown glimpses of that raw talent here.

Tadic is another one. Great season in the Eredivisie. Came here and continued his form with a phenomenal assist record.

At what point in Redmond's career has he shown any consistent signs of having what it takes to be a star?

 

We signed Pelle on the back of 50 goals in 56 games. He came here and continued his good form (less that Winter patch). He played well enough to become Italy's #9 and got a move to China becoming the worlds 4th highest paid player.

We signed Austin on the back of consistent goal scoring year on year throughout his career. He's continued that form here as our only reliable striker.

At what point in Gabbi's career has he shown any consistent signs of having what it takes to be a star? He's a 26 year old with a grand total of 50 career league goals; what Pelle achieved in only 2 years.

 

Because all other football clubs have cracked that formula and only Les Reed gets it wrong.

 

For the record I voted Reed in. Check the poll.

 

But I can see you're struggling because you don't seem to have got much further than "don't sign Nathan Redmond". I'd turn it in if I were you.

 

Same can be said to you.

[Charlie Wayman]

Wow you must have been up all night writing that lot. The last thing on my mind last night was Saints or other posters on here. Life is out there!

[ashnats]

Hoedt played at Lazio, we had to pay ‘overs’ to prise him away. Also a Dutch international, for what it’s worth.

 

On paper, and in pedigree terms, Hoedt is a much more ambitious signing than mane was, mane being in Austrian league, and derided by our fans for the first few months...

[hypochondriac]

Hoedt played at Lazio, we had to pay ‘overs’ to prise him away. Also a Dutch international, for what it’s worth.

 

On paper, and in pedigree terms, Hoedt is a much more ambitious signing than mane was, mane being in Austrian league, and derided by our fans for the first few months...

This lie is really annoying. Mane was derided by about three people on here for the first few games. Most coukd see he was quality.

[S-Clarke]

This lie is really annoying. Mane was derided by about three people on here for the first few games. Most coukd see he was quality.

 

This is an hillarious read:

 

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?52510-CONFIRMED-Mane-joins-Liverpool-for-%A334m-%A32m-addons

[Fan The Flames]

Hoedt wasn't sold by Lazio because they thought he was ****, it was because they got him on a free and sold him two years later for €17m. He made 60 appearances for Lazio and he was in his early 20s, he will be a good player for us.

 

So we have now established that that we have bought good players who were regulars in their teams from decent clubs in decent leagues. We have the highest squad value ever, paying the highest wages ever. So Ulimatts moan, which started as we do everything on the cheap whaa whaa whaa Led Reeds a **** whaa whaa whaa, actually boils down to Redman being a poor replacement for Mane and Gabbidini being a loser.

 

Well Gabbidini was and emergency buy in January because Austin was injured, he came in and started well and nearly won us the League Cup. He stopped scoring at the end of the season once the team downed tools and has struggled this season along with the whole team. Surely the generous thing to do, you know the thing that fans of a football club do, is to say that the jury is still out on him.

 

Redman is a skillfull player who has a huge job in replacing Mane. He moans at other players and needs to up his effectiveness, but you can see why he was bought. If he left tomorrow the argument would continue whether he was good or bad for us, that's how fine the line is.

 

But seriously can the Reed is **** stuff really boil down to Redman. The team has gone backwards but haven't the management team earnt enough credit to be left alone to sort it out. Let's see at the end of Jan where we are.