Les Reed

[eelpie]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4848990/England-Southampton-international-football.html

 

Didn't think it worthy of a new thread, but an "interesting" comparison between England and Saints!!! Are we really as dull as England?

 

Well England are scoring more goals. Even our Bertrand scores with England.

 

What has happened to the exciting Saints Way?

[suewhistle]

What on earth is the obsession with Les Read? He has delivered, with the Liebherrs, the best Saints years starting from absolutely nothing. And look where he has led us, if that is not amazing success, what is the expectation? And it has all been done on a lightweight budget compared with the bankrolled top six. It has been a long progression, the Reed Out people don't seem to appreciate the steady rise to success. What's the matter with them? What and who do they want?

 

Your questions are very apposite.They expectations are in the same vein as "sign a new striker/AM/whatever", as if it just needed a quick trip the supermarket to pick up something appropriate, affordable and actually willing to be sold to us. With the latter you don't get tins of beans getting stroppy - 'I want to be eaten now, served alongside truffle oil and no leaving me on the shelf in your storecupboard'..

[Nordic Saint]

Lol at the people suggesting we should've pushed on from 6th and regularly competed with the big clubs. Explain to me how we can magically go from our £85m wage budget to the £195m+ of the big 5.

 

2016/17 wage budgets:

Man Utd £232m

Chelsea £224m

Liverpool £208m

Man City £198m

Arsenal £195m

Spurs £100m

Southampton £85m

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/01/premier-league-finances-club-by-club

 

The fact is we over-performed based on our spend the last few years thanks to some quality players that moved on to top clubs. Last season we only had 2 players worthy of big clubs (Bertrand/VVD) with 1 injured half the season (Some will argue Cedric & Romeu too, imo they're good but not top club level). Unless we make some incredibly shrewd signings we'll be battling with the 13 other clubs on similar wage budgets.

Spurs right now are over-performing the same way we did with a squad of real quality players. Watch them get picked apart over the next 2 years like we did when they all demand higher wages (already seeing discontent with Rose).

 

People that think we can consistently compete with the big clubs are either deluded or trolls. 2017 football is all about money and we don't have it.

 

I noticed this:

 

"Liebherr still has £31m in loans to the club at 5% interest" Am I right in thinking that the Club has now paid her back in full?

[VectisSaint]

Lol at the people suggesting we should've pushed on from 6th and regularly competed with the big clubs. Explain to me how we can magically go from our £85m wage budget to the £195m+ of the big 5.

But Spurs finished 2nd didn't they? Only a £15m difference between us and them, they seem to have bridged all but that £15m to the so-called Big 5 that you think is so laughable.

I don't actually think we should or could bridge the gap, but poo-pooing those who do based on your arguments is laughable in itself. There are reasons other than the wage budget.

[sadoldgit]

But Spurs finished 2nd didn't they? Only a £15m difference between us and them, they seem to have bridged all but that £15m to the so-called Big 5 that you think is so laughable.

I don't actually think we should or could bridge the gap, but poo-pooing those who do based on your arguments is laughable in itself. There are reasons other than the wage budget.

 

Their players seem hacked off with their earnings and have been kicking off about them. It will be interesting to see who is still there in two or three years time. Toby is already making noises about leaving if they don't give him more money. Walker has gone. Watch this space!

[View From The Top]

I noticed this:

 

"Liebherr still has £31m in loans to the club at 5% interest" Am I right in thinking that the Club has now paid her back in full?

 

Yes.

[Ultimatt]

But Spurs finished 2nd didn't they? Only a £15m difference between us and them, they seem to have bridged all but that £15m to the so-called Big 5 that you think is so laughable.

I don't actually think we should or could bridge the gap, but poo-pooing those who do based on your arguments is laughable in itself. There are reasons other than the wage budget.

 

They have a young squad on low wages. They'd be well and truly paying unders for virtually all of them. Kane is on less than £100k/week. That means he's on similar money to Forster.... Lukaku's on apparently £200k/pw. Alli was on about £50k/pw and now apparently £80k/pw.

 

It would be his third new contract since joining the club in January 2015 and only put pen to paper on his last deal in September.

 

But even though he still has five years to run on it a recent spate of players signing new deals have left him behind in the wage stakes on around £55,000 a week.

 

The new deal could net him as much as £80,000 a week will more or less put him on a par with the top earners like Harry Kane and Hugo Lloris.

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/834573/Barcelona-Transfer-News-Tottenham-Dele-Alli-Premier-League-Mauricio-Pochettino-Contract

 

3 new contracts in 2 years. Kane also signed a new one each year as did other players. They all know they're being underpaid for the success Spurs is getting and they want more money. Spurs has no chance to hold this team together paying wages close to ours in the same way we had no chance to hold onto Lallana/Schneiderlin/Clyne/Mane etc.

[cellone]

They have a young squad on low wages. They'd be well and truly paying unders for virtually all of them. Kane is on less than £100k/week. That means he's on similar money to Forster.... Lukaku's on apparently £200k/pw. Alli was on about £50k/pw and now apparently £80k/pw.

 

 

 

3 new contracts in 2 years. Kane also signed a new one each year as did other players. They all know they're being underpaid for the success Spurs is getting and they want more money. Spurs has no chance to hold this team together paying wages close to ours in the same way we had no chance to hold onto Lallana/Schneiderlin/Clyne/Mane etc.

 

Maybe they will continue with the stand made by Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and ourselves.

[Shance]

What on earth is the obsession with Les Read? He has delivered, with the Liebherrs, the best Saints years starting from absolutely nothing. And look where he has led us, if that is not amazing success, what is the expectation? And it has all been done on a lightweight budget compared with the bankrolled top six. It has been a long progression, the Reed Out people don't seem to appreciate the steady rise to success. What's the matter with them? What and who do they want?

 

Honestly I think it's because of the steady rise. We now have a younger generation of fans that are used to prgress and winning. It's mad how unhappy some of our fans can be in this day and age. Try following saints when we we're under Rupert Lowe struggling to stay up every year.

[hutch]

But Spurs finished 2nd didn't they? Only a £15m difference between us and them, they seem to have bridged all but that £15m to the so-called Big 5 that you think is so laughable.

I don't actually think we should or could bridge the gap, but poo-pooing those who do based on your arguments is laughable in itself. There are reasons other than the wage budget.

His arguments are wrong. The wage data is for the year before.

[Fan The Flames]

Honestly I think it's because of the steady rise. We now have a younger generation of fans that are used to prgress and winning. It's mad how unhappy some of our fans can be in this day and age. Try following saints when we we're under Rupert Lowe struggling to stay up every year.

 

I would suggest that they are as many older fans who are anti Les Reed as there are younger fans. Take Vectissaint for an example, I don't know his age but he sounds old.

[Heisenberg]

Try following saints when we we're under Rupert Lowe struggling to stay up every year.

 

2000-2004 we had 4 top 12 finishes (10,11,8,12) plus a cup final in 2003.

[CB Fry]

2000-2004 we had 4 top 12 finishes (10,11,8,12) plus a cup final in 2003.

LOWE IN.

[OldNick]

 

Reed has too much respect for the top 7 and has put a ceiling on our success. His recent management appointments poor (Puel) and recent signing very mixed. He also leaves glaring squad gaps year after year.

 

Time for a change IMHO.

I'm not a great fan of Reed but it may not have been him who didn't want us to push on, but perhaps KL. I suspect she was very comfortable watching her asset go up in value without any risk. Reed would only be able to push the bot out so far, and he would have seen what happened to NC when t seems to me that he tried to spend more than she wanted

[trousers]

LOWE IN.

To be fair to Glasgow, he hasn't played the 'Quote Selective Statistics' card (textbook chapter 4, page 173) for a while now. Good to see him mix things up a bit.

[Ultimatt]

His arguments are wrong. The wage data is for the year before.

 

You're right, I put the wrong years, but how does that make the argument wrong? Spurs only beat us by 7 points in 2015/16 when they had similar wage spend. They offered new contracts to the majority of their players for 2016/17 moving above that £100m wage spend and they've offered new contracts again this season moving even higher. Explain to me how we can consistently compete with clubs paying 2.5x wages than us. Explain to me how if everything's so rosy at Spurs, why they're having to offer new contracts/payrises year on year to players already on 5 year contracts.

 

Yet the bigger issue, undoubtedly, is that the players have just seen Kyle Walker more than double his wages by moving to Manchester City and are increasingly aware, as Rose pointed out, they are underpaid in comparison to the other clubs at the top end of the league, as well as plenty below that level. Harry Kane is the club’s top earner at £100,000 a week. It is mind‑boggling money but that would be at the lower end of the scale at, say, Chelsea or Manchester United and around a quarter of what Alexis Sánchez will earn – £325,000 a week plus image rights – if Manchester City can persuade Arsenal to let him go. Most of the other Spurs players, including Rose, Eric Dier and Hugo Lloris are in the £60,000-£75,000 bracket. It’s not Skid Row, but you can see their point when Bournemouth, Stoke City and Crystal Palace can pay more.

 

What does all this tell us? First of all, what we should already have known: that Spurs have been dramatically punching above their weight under Mauricio Pochettino’s guidance. The Argentinian has shown it is possible to take on the super-rich but Levy surely needs to have a long, hard think about significantly increasing the club’s wage bill unless he wants to risk a more widespread mutiny. Something has to give because whatever you think of the players’ motives – whether you agree with their complaints or think it is greed, envy, call it what you will – it is just a fact of life at Spurs that Pochettino’s men are earning a fraction of what they could make elsewhere. Levy should have seen this coming and, now it has finally caught up with him, it would be another mistake to assume this is an issue involving only one player.

 

Rose is simply the one who dared to put his head above the parapet but Levy is so intransigent in his financial dealings nobody should be surprised if he chooses to do nothing about it. This really is the key point. Do Spurs accept they have been short-changing their players and try to put it right? And can they afford not to, bearing in mind the disaffection that would inevitably create behind the scenes?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/aug/12/danny-rose-daniel-levy-spurs

[shurlock]

To be fair to Glasgow, he hasn't played the 'Quote Selective Statistics' card (textbook chapter 4, page 173) for a while now. Good to see him mix things up a bit.

 

I understand your craft is equally honed.

 

[hutch]

You're right, I put the wrong years, but how does that make the argument wrong? Spurs only beat us by 7 points in 2015/16 when they had similar wage spend. They offered new contracts to the majority of their players for 2016/17 moving above that £100m wage spend and they've offered new contracts again this season moving even higher. Explain to me how we can consistently compete with clubs paying 2.5x wages than us. Explain to me how if everything's so rosy at Spurs, why they're having to offer new contracts/payrises year on year to players already on 5 year contracts.

I agree with you, we can't compete with them, and I think time will show a much larger gulf between our own and Spurs' wage bills.

[Heisenberg]

I agree with you, we can't compete with them, and I think time will show a much larger gulf between our own and Spurs' wage bills.

 

We cant seem to compete while the gap is small. Spurs are that annoying fly in the room when people play the "wages" card and "our max potential" it's normally always followed with but, if, when, errr

 

Leicester too - bloody Leicester, champions of England and quarter final of the champions league.

[Ultimatt]

We cant seem to compete while the gap is small. Spurs are that annoying fly in the room when people play the "wages" card and "our max potential" it's normally always followed with but, if, when, errr

 

Actually we did compete while the gap was small. £100m spend for 70 points vs our £85m spend for 63 points.

 

Leicester too - bloody Leicester, champions of England and quarter final of the champions league.

 

And back to hovering around relegation/bottom half. I'd hate to see the complaints there on how they "didn't push on".

 

Every now and then a team recruits well and starts punching above its weight for a year or 3. Then they return back to normal levels. We punched above our weight with half a team that moved on to bigger clubs. Spurs are punching above their weight with some shrewd signings and a star home-grown striker but the cracks are forming with their limited budget.

Our level is 8th-12th with the occasional better or worse years and it's all to do with how much money we have. Modern football is all about money. Putting unrealistic expectations on managers/Reed is the path towards no stability and our club becoming a basket case.

[Saint86]

2000-2004 we had 4 top 12 finishes (10,11,8,12) plus a cup final in 2003.

 

The arguments in this thread are just hilarious.

 

"We can't smash the glass ceiling" - Yet Tottenham and Leicester did and can...

 

"Our fans should have tried to follow saints when we struggled under Lowe" - Then 4 Top 12 finishes, european qualification and a cup final"

 

The simple fact of the matter is that we have much the same fans now as we did when we were in the premier league before. We followed the club down through the leagues, we followed them back up, we followed them to Wembley twice.

 

Mental how fan's can't deal with other fan's views.

 

The club could have achieved a fair amount more in the last few years. And whilst we've been blessed as fans lately, there is no point hiding from that fact that we could (and should) have done more.

 

It doesn't make us "unhappy" as saints fans to look at the reality of the club and discuss it. But it does make you a head in the sand numpty if you think the board are the perfect business / sporting tacticians, whose backsides the sun doth shine out of.

 

[East Kent Saint]

Yet Toby is agitating for a new contract else he is leaving Spurs ....

[SKD]

Yet Toby is agitating for a new contract else he is leaving Spurs ....

 

Not really surprising.

 

He is one of, if not the best, CB in the league - he could and should earn over double the reported £60k a week.

[Heisenberg]

The arguments in this thread are just hilarious.

 

"We can't smash the glass ceiling" - Yet Tottenham and Leicester did and can...

 

"Our fans should have tried to follow saints when we struggled under Lowe" - Then 4 Top 12 finishes, european qualification and a cup final"

 

The simple fact of the matter is that we have much the same fans now as we did when we were in the premier league before. We followed the club down through the leagues, we followed them back up, we followed them to Wembley twice.

 

Mental how fan's can't deal with other fan's views.

 

The club could have achieved a fair amount more in the last few years. And whilst we've been blessed as fans lately, there is no point hiding from that fact that we could (and should) have done more.

 

It doesn't make us "unhappy" as saints fans to look at the reality of the club and discuss it. But it does make you a head in the sand numpty if you think the board are the perfect business / sporting tacticians, whose backsides the sun doth shine out of.

 

 

Apparently "real" fans are just happy to have a club

 

Only trolls, negative posters, dinlows and people in bedsits want to see SFC win something or be ambitious.

 

Fyi Ambition = doing a pompey

[Mowgli]

I understand your craft is equally honed.

 

Is it just me or does that look remarkably like Rupert....?

[trousers]

I understand your craft is equally honed.

 

You have taught me well oh master

[trousers]

Apparently "real" fans are just happy to have a club

 

Only trolls, negative posters, dinlows and people in bedsits want to see SFC win something or be ambitious.

 

Fyi Ambition = doing a pompey

[Redslo]

Actually we did compete while the gap was small. £100m spend for 70 points vs our £85m spend for 63 points.

 

 

 

And back to hovering around relegation/bottom half. I'd hate to see the complaints there on how they "didn't push on".

 

Every now and then a team recruits well and starts punching above its weight for a year or 3. Then they return back to normal levels. We punched above our weight with half a team that moved on to bigger clubs. Spurs are punching above their weight with some shrewd signings and a star home-grown striker but the cracks are forming with their limited budget.

Our level is 8th-12th with the occasional better or worse years and it's all to do with how much money we have. Modern football is all about money. Putting unrealistic expectations on managers/Reed is the path towards no stability and our club becoming a basket case.

 

I think that the spurs weight may actually be changing with their new stadium, the increased money from TV these days, back to back champions league appearances, a good manager (if he stays), Arsenal's ongoing problems (if they persist), the advantages of a London locations, and their increasing popularity world wide.

 

The arguments in this thread are just hilarious.

 

"We can't smash the glass ceiling" - Yet Tottenham and Leicester did and can...

 

"Our fans should have tried to follow saints when we struggled under Lowe" - Then 4 Top 12 finishes, european qualification and a cup final"

 

The simple fact of the matter is that we have much the same fans now as we did when we were in the premier league before. We followed the club down through the leagues, we followed them back up, we followed them to Wembley twice.

 

Mental how fan's can't deal with other fan's views.

 

The club could have achieved a fair amount more in the last few years. And whilst we've been blessed as fans lately, there is no point hiding from that fact that we could (and should) have done more.

 

It doesn't make us "unhappy" as saints fans to look at the reality of the club and discuss it. But it does make you a head in the sand numpty if you think the board are the perfect business / sporting tacticians, whose backsides the sun doth shine out of.

 

 

You are funny too.

 

Tottenham's limitations were, before FFP, self imposed in that their rich owner didn't want to spend lots of his own money. FFP actually helps Tottenham because their advantages should allow them to spend more and more as time goes by while still complying with the FFP rules. Leicester's situation was just a fluke. No one could have planned for that or be expected to recreate it.

 

I agree what the club could have accomplished more, but I don't put it down to management not doing things right but close games where, with a little bit more luck, a few draws could have become wins. Or, last year, a few scoreless draws could have become wins. Still 4 top 8 finishes seems like a significant improvement on 4 top 12 finishes.

 

As for Southampton having "much the same fans" now as when the club was last in the premier league, that is simply not true. This time the club has me.

 

Apparently "real" fans are just happy to have a club

 

Only trolls, negative posters, dinlows and people in bedsits want to see SFC win something or be ambitious.

 

Fyi Ambition = doing a pompey

 

Quite right. I was so relieved when we lost the cup final last season.

[VectisSaint]

I would suggest that they are as many older fans who are anti Les Reed as there are younger fans. Take Vectissaint for an example, I don't know his age but he sounds old.

LOL. You're right, I'm ancient (62 actually) . But I'm not particularly anti Les Reed. I'm not a great fan, he has done some good things and some bad. His problem, for me, is that he tends to blow with the wind, one day making out his philosophy is one thing, contradicting it the next (for example sending young players out on loan). A lot of people who have a problem with him are those who have a problem with Cortese, which I don't particularly (nasty piece of work that he was). The only reason I posted here was that Ultimatt was making arguments using data that completely contradicted his point, and he didn't seem able to see it. Apparently the wages data was out of date though. Its still ******** to believe that everything is completely down to money as he seems to. Its an important factor, probably the most important but it isn't the only factor. Kids today...

 

I also only have 3 posts so could not respond sooner, alternatively I was not allowed out of the old folks home sooner...

[CB Fry]

Apparently "real" fans are just happy to have a club

 

Only trolls, negative posters, dinlows and people in bedsits want to see SFC win something or be ambitious.

 

Fyi Ambition = doing a pompey

..

[CB Fry]

The arguments in this thread are just hilarious.

 

"We can't smash the glass ceiling" - Yet Tottenham and Leicester did and can...

 

"Our fans should have tried to follow saints when we struggled under Lowe" - Then 4 Top 12 finishes, european qualification and a cup final"

 

The simple fact of the matter is that we have much the same fans now as we did when we were in the premier league before. We followed the club down through the leagues, we followed them back up, we followed them to Wembley twice.

 

Mental how fan's can't deal with other fan's views.

 

The club could have achieved a fair amount more in the last few years. And whilst we've been blessed as fans lately, there is no point hiding from that fact that we could (and should) have done more.

 

It doesn't make us "unhappy" as saints fans to look at the reality of the club and discuss it. But it does make you a head in the sand numpty if you think the board are the perfect business / sporting tacticians, whose backsides the sun doth shine out of.

 

 

So, just to confirm, you berate our football club for failing to build on 7th and 6th place by delivering a paltry 8th place. You are so offended by us "going backwards" and how we could have achieved so much more.

 

But Leicester City building on their phenomenal and bank account busting performance in 15/16 by spending the following season stuttering and stumbling around the relegation zone before rallying to, err, twelfth place at the death is apparently "breaking the glass ceiling" what we should be emulating them.

 

Clear as fu cking mud. Yey yey yey I wish we could finish twelfth like Leicester.

Edited 6 September, 2017 by CB Fry

[Miltonaggro]

LOL. You're right, I'm ancient (62 actually) . But I'm not particularly anti Les Reed. I'm not a great fan, he has done some good things and some bad. His problem, for me, is that he tends to blow with the wind, one day making out his philosophy is one thing, contradicting it the next (for example sending young players out on loan). A lot of people who have a problem with him are those who have a problem with Cortese, which I don't particularly (nasty piece of work that he was). The only reason I posted here was that Ultimatt was making arguments using data that completely contradicted his point, and he didn't seem able to see it. Apparently the wages data was out of date though. Its still ******** to believe that everything is completely down to money as he seems to. Its an important factor, probably the most important but it isn't the only factor. Kids today...

 

I also only have 3 posts so could not respond sooner, alternatively I was not allowed out of the old folks home sooner...

 

I'm with you on much of this Vectis, in simple terms I think Cortese was an egomaniac and Reed is a chancer. The stuff about the latter being an innovator is nonsense, most of it is framed in terms of public relations by the 'futuristic' Staplewood backdrop which was installed over budget by the former ;-)

[Heisenberg]

Clear as fu cking mud. Yey yey yey I wish we could finish twelfth like Leicester.

 

12th and a champions league quarter final...

 

Fyi we finished 2 points above Leicester "stuttering and stumbling around the relegation zone" FC last season

[shurlock]

12th and a champions league quarter final...

 

Fyi we finished 2 points above Leicester "stuttering and stumbling around the relegation zone" FC last season

 

Would have loved a CL quarter final -trips to Denmark, Portugal, Belgium and two trips to Spain. Beats our s**t European campaign.

[The9]

There's some really, really special little guys on this forum.

 

But you are probably my favourite.

 

This thread has been absolutely super for rapidly augmenting my ignore list. Three added... one removed (pal).

[CB Fry]

12th and a champions league quarter final...

 

Fyi we finished 2 points above Leicester "stuttering and stumbling around the relegation zone" FC last season

We weren't anywhere near the relegation zone at any point all season, they were.

Would have loved a CL quarter final -trips to Denmark, Portugal, Belgium and two trips to Spain. Beats our s**t European campaign.

Well, of course - they've broken the glass ceiling, that Leicester City, whereas we haven't. I look forward to seeing them smash the ceiling once again this season.

[Fan The Flames]

2000-2004 we had 4 top 12 finishes (10,11,8,12) plus a cup final in 2003.

 

So why wasn't Lowe able to push on.

[Fan The Flames]

LOL. You're right, I'm ancient (62 actually) . But I'm not particularly anti Les Reed. I'm not a great fan, he has done some good things and some bad. His problem, for me, is that he tends to blow with the wind, one day making out his philosophy is one thing, contradicting it the next (for example sending young players out on loan). A lot of people who have a problem with him are those who have a problem with Cortese, which I don't particularly (nasty piece of work that he was). The only reason I posted here was that Ultimatt was making arguments using data that completely contradicted his point, and he didn't seem able to see it. Apparently the wages data was out of date though. Its still ******** to believe that everything is completely down to money as he seems to. Its an important factor, probably the most important but it isn't the only factor. Kids today...

 

I also only have 3 posts so could not respond sooner, alternatively I was not allowed out of the old folks home sooner...

 

Well you look good for your age.

[Saint_clark]

People talking about Spurs and Leicester.

 

Leicester was a complete one off, a fluke of a season where all the top clubs and even middle clubs (see:us) failed to form any sort of consistency. Everything clicked for them including no injuries or loss of form to any of their key players.

Spurs have worked at this for a long, long time - back in 08/09ish times, they were exactly where we are now. Midtable but regularly top half, getting to the latter stages of the cups (winning a league cup at one point under Ramos), and just about turning the corner in regards to selling players. Fast forward 7-8 years and they are challenging for the title. If you're going to cite Spurs as an example of breaking the glass ceiling, you need to wait until 2023 at least to see how we compare to them.

[Saint86]

Very mature place this. If people don't like your opinion they put you on ignore

 

Basically the hive mind echo chamber on a microscale.

[CB Fry]

Very mature place this. If people don't like your opinion they put you on ignore [emoji38]

 

Basically the hive mind echo chamber on a microscale.

Who has put you on ignore then? I can't see anyone on this thread saying they have.

 

Odd.

[OldNick]

We weren't anywhere near the relegation zone at any point all season, they were.

Well, of course - they've broken the glass ceiling, that Leicester City, whereas we haven't. I look forward to seeing them smash the ceiling once again this season.

well they have smashed the glass ceiling many more time than us. Look at their trophies over the last 20 or so years.

[Heisenberg]

well they have smashed the glass ceiling many more time than us. Look at their trophies over the last 20 or so years.

 

Unsure why he ever started using Leicester as the benchmark and evidence that Leslie was doing a grand job. odd

 

Leicester have won the Premier league, Championship (x2), League one, League cup (x2) and BBC Sports Personality Team of the Year since we last won a trophy (unless the JPT counts of course )

[tajjuk]

Thing is Spurs basically had a world class striker come through the youth ranks and bought one of the best young players to come out of the lower leagues in a generation. They have then bought around that well, but you can't really argue that we haven't bought well also (In fact two of their better players + their manager are basically down to us). I'd reckon we match them in defence and most of midfield for quality. Where they beat us and have those extra points is Kane, Ali and Erikson, those 3 are pretty much all their assists and goals in the last two-three years (Son is also a good buy).

 

So you have an outstanding youth prospect in Kane (we haven't produced a player of his level really since the Ox or Bale) who is also in probably the most expensive area to buy players in - goalscorers, I mean they have basically had a 20 goal a season striker come through the youth ranks, you can't plan for that. Then they took a punt on two unproven talents, one from the lower leagues and one from Holland who have come off spectacularly (and fair play to them for that) but again probably no one predicted when they bought Ali and Erikson they would be as good as they have been. The three of them also pretty much started performing at the same time, within 2-3 years of each other so their success became the teams success meaning it was easier to keep hold of them because they became a champions league club challenging for trophies.

 

They then added some steel and solidity through the rest of the team in the likes of Alderveld, Wanyama, Vertonghen etc. most of whom they managed to get at lower prices due to good timing of the deals (contracts running out etc.). They've also had their fair share of duffers in the likes of Lamela, Janssen, Sissoko etc. who they have wasted big money on.

 

Basically my point is, if our club had been doing what it's been doing, building solidly, buying sensibly and scouting well, progressing all areas of the club, then at the same time we'd had players come through or acquired 3 players of the level of Kane, Ali and Erikson then I could quite as easily seen us being the ones who were in the top 4 over the last few years.

 

The club can only do what it can do and hope that we get some good youth products or unearth a couple of gems at the same time that pushed the club onto the next level.

[Scully]

Feel like we dropped the ball buying Boufal for 16 mil. That money could probably have been better spent elsewhere. I'm more than happy for him to shut me up though.

[Micky]

This thread is really going to liven up when we finish this season lower than last. Cant wait. Whose going to pen the open letter to Les telling him how we all feel?

[CB Fry]

well they have smashed the glass ceiling many more time than us. Look at their trophies over the last 20 or so years.

 

Winning the league cup is not breaking the glass ceiling, neither is winning the second tier. Usual drivel from you.

 

And neither, quite frankly, is a freak win of the Premier League. They came completely out of nowhere during a very patchy season for the big guns (which we also took advantage of) and last season slumped back to 12th. They did great, but no glass ceiling broken.

 

The general whinging from Saint86 on this thread was about how we have failed because we haven't "built on" our excellent finishes. But Leicester haven't built on their achievements either.

 

We're supposed accept the premise that finishing 8th then 7th then 6th then 8th again is apparently some kind of failure for our club, but Leicester finishing 12th is just fine and wouldn't it be great if we'd smashed the glass ceiling like Leicester. I'm saying this is utter pony.

[East Kent Saint]

Toby still wants a new contract or he's leaving !!!

[Saint86]

Who has put you on ignore then? I can't see anyone on this thread saying they have.

 

Odd.

 

I never said they had, I'm just observing people saying that they are putting people on ignore for differing opinions. The only time I use ignore is for trolls (that don't offer amusement - Glasgow is therefore safe), or abusive posters.

 

Also, as a response to your earlier post Fry, I don't want to berate the clubs management, I am merely pointing out that they could be better. If calling Les Reed a, "slightly better than average" director of football is berating him then PC has truly taken over :/

 

I merely voice my frustration that a lot of our fans want us to just be grateful we have a club. Whilst we should all be grateful for that (!), that doesn't mean we should be content to just exist. Everything that has happened since the takeover means we can be so much more, and we should always strive for that.

 

I'd rather the club had the ambition to break into the champions league (and courageously but sadly missed it), than had the ambition to come mid table (and missed it repeatedly). Because, lets be honest, Saints routinely miss their ambitions (we love the club anyway)... I guess what I'm trying to say, by striving to be the best you can be and you'll achieve more than aiming low. Nothing ****es me off more than aiming for mediocrity when we all know as fans that Saints can be better. And also, if we have a fanbase that accepts mediocrity, it makes it a lot easier for the club management to deliver it and get away with it.

 

Fortunately we put enough pressure in games to get a change from Puel.

 

We all hate Scousers... But their mentality carries a certain weight. They haven't won the premier league in 25years, but their fans shouting about how massive they are still sees them viewed as one of the biggest 2-3 clubs in the country.

Edited 7 September, 2017 by Saint86

[CB Fry]

 

Also, as a response to your earlier post Fry, I don't want to berate the clubs management, I am merely pointing out that they could be better. If calling Les Reed a, "slightly better than average" director of football is berating him then PC has truly taken over :/

.

 

Can you name even five directors of football who are truly better than average, if "slightly better than average" is two straight promotions, then 14th, 8th, 6th, 7th, 8th for us.

 

In fact, just five clubs who over the the last five years have performed genuinely better than average and not just as a one off. I'll accept Leicester and Huddersfield but not sure who else. Are there three more? (hint - all of the top six clubs have performed, compared to your jolly high standards, no more than averagely in this timescale).

 

I merely voice my frustration that a lot of our fans want us to just be grateful we have a club. Whilst we should all be grateful for that (!), that doesn't mean we should be content to just exist. Everything that has happened since the takeover means we can be so much more, and we should always strive for that.

 

That's a whole heap of strawman there.

 

I'd rather the club had the ambition to break into the champions league (and courageously but sadly missed it), than had the ambition to come mid table (and missed it repeatedly). .

 

This is, pretty much to the letter, exactly the stated ambition of the club. It's precisely what Les and Ralph have said over and over and over again. Aim for europe, ideally the CL, but do it our way, not overspending and will likely require the big clubs to have a off season. I'd say that having that stretching objective is why we have finished 8th and 7th and 6th which I think is pretty bloody good and you think is "slightly above average" for us. Bizarre.

 

 

 

Fortunately we put enough pressure in games to get a change from Puel.

 

 

The club sacked Puel not the fans. Funnily enough he didn't meet with our ambition. Do you understand how this works yet?

 

 

We all hate Scousers... But their mentality carries a certain weight. They haven't won the premier league in 25years, but their fans shouting about how massive they are still sees them viewed as one of the biggest 2-3 clubs in the country.

 

No idea what any of this has to do with anything but there you go.

Edited 8 September, 2017 by CB Fry