Stud mark of doom Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 No doubt this is covered elsewhere but I can't see it. Do away goals count double in the semi? Perhaps only after extra time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErwinK1961 Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 No doubt this is covered elsewhere but I can't see it. Do away goals count double in the semi? Perhaps only after extra time? Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stud mark of doom Posted 24 January, 2017 Author Share Posted 24 January, 2017 That's good to know. Liverpool haven't beaten us by more than a single goal at anfield since 2002. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 That's good to know. Liverpool haven't beaten us by more than a single goal at anfield since 2002. Why did you go and say that ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 We've got a bit of previous with being stitched up with slight alterations to rules. No away goals in the play-offs, head-to-head rather than goal difference in Europa League, and now potentially Liverpool having an extra half an hour to get a goal if the score is 2-2 on aggregate at full time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OttawaSaint Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 That's good to know. Liverpool haven't beaten us by more than a single goal at anfield since 2002. Whyyyyyyyy???? I'm feeling the nerves already. Watch us get to stoppage time without VVD at 1-1 (1-2 agg) and they bag a lucky one and then another in extra time. Come on Saints, please win this tie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 Point of order: Away goals never count double, otherwise a 4-2 away defeat and a 2-1 home win would result in a 6-6 aggregate draw. The "away goals" rule - where ties are settled by the higher number of away goals if the aggregate is level - applies after extra time in the EFL Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 We've got a bit of previous with being stitched up with slight alterations to rules. No away goals in the play-offs, head-to-head rather than goal difference in Europa League, and now potentially Liverpool having an extra half an hour to get a goal if the score is 2-2 on aggregate at full time. And who can forget, the first victim of the new three up three down promotion/relegation rule in 1974. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 Point of order: Away goals never count double, otherwise a 4-2 away defeat and a 2-1 home win would result in a 6-6 aggregate draw. The "away goals" rule - where ties are settled by the higher number of away goals if the aggregate is level - applies after extra time in the EFL Cup. The rule, under which away goals count double if a two-legged tie ends with the aggregate scores level, was introduced into European competition in the Cup Winners' Cup in 1965-66. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/sep/04/uefa-champions-league-seedings The part in bold has to be added if someone says away goals count double. If they're using away goals counting double* in this competition, it should be after 90 minutes, not extra time, just like they've done for over 50 years in Europe. * if the aggregate scores are level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 The rule, under which away goals count double if a two-legged tie ends with the aggregate scores level, was introduced into European competition in the Cup Winners' Cup in 1965-66. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/sep/04/uefa-champions-league-seedings The part in bold has to be added if someone says away goals count double. If they're using away goals counting double* in this competition, it should be after 90 minutes, not extra time, just like they've done for over 50 years in Europe. * if the aggregate scores are level I can remember European ties being settled by the toss of a coin. And there were these examples: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2002/aug/08/theknowledge.sport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 The rule, under which away goals count double if a two-legged tie ends with the aggregate scores level, was introduced into European competition in the Cup Winners' Cup in 1965-66. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/sep/04/uefa-champions-league-seedings The part in bold has to be added if someone says away goals count double. If they're using away goals counting double* in this competition, it should be after 90 minutes, not extra time, just like they've done for over 50 years in Europe. * if the aggregate scores are level Does that mean if it's 2-2 after extratime we should be recorded as having won 4-2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 Point of order: Away goals never count double, otherwise a 4-2 away defeat and a 2-1 home win would result in a 6-6 aggregate draw. The "away goals" rule - where ties are settled by the higher number of away goals if the aggregate is level - applies after extra time in the EFL Cup. The competition rules state that away goals are "counted twice", which in typical football governance fashion is a nicely ambiguous way of stating things. "Counting twice" could quite easily be taken to mean "counting double", however, seeing as "twice" and "double" are synonyms. http://cup.efl.com/competition/rules/#13 Rule 13.5. So, whilst it is a preposterous formulation of how to achieve the tie-break, I think by the letter of the law, if we were to lose 2-1 after extra time on Wednesday it would be legitimate to say we won 3-2 on aggregate due to our away goal being counted twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 Does that mean if it's 2-2 after extratime we should be recorded as having won 4-2? No, because we would only have one away goal to count twice. We would win 3-2, as described above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 Except away goals never get counted like that. The score would be 2-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 No, because we would only have one away goal to count twice. We would win 3-2, as described above. Except away goals never get counted like that. The score would be 2-2. I'm well aware, I was simply joshing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 I think away goals should count ten-fold*. That way, if we lose 2-1 (after bloody extra time) we'll win the tie 11-2 on aggregate. Take that you scousers. * If the aggregate scores are level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 Except away goals never get counted like that. The score would be 2-2. 3-2 win under the rules. Fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5string Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 So, basically, actually, in fact, what you mean is, for this single match, to all intents & purposes...: - If we draw or win after 90 minutes, we go through to the final? (here's hoping...) - If both teams score and we lose by just one goal after 90 minutes, it goes to extra time? - Following a one-goal defeat after 90 minutes (see point above), if the score difference remains the same after extra time (even if it's 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, etc), we go through? - If Liverpool win 1-0 after 90 minutes, it goes to extra time, then penalties, if it remains thus at the end of extra time? (This one actually makes sense) - If Liverpool win by 2 clear goals or more, they go through? Sorry for sounding Australian with all those question marks. Just trying to clarify the fog of qualifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 3-2 win under the rules. Fact. Glad you're joining in on the joshing. LOLZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 Glad you're joining in on the joshing. LOLZ. Fry, don't shoot the messenger! I'm as surprised as you that all known football matches decided in this way have been wrongly reported but that seems to the the case. I checked the rules. "Counted twice". 2-1 defeat tomorrow is a 3-2 win on aggregate. 5-4 defeat tomorrow is a 9-5 aggregate win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 24 January, 2017 Share Posted 24 January, 2017 So, basically, actually, in fact, what you mean is, for this single match, to all intents & purposes...: - If we draw or win after 90 minutes, we go through to the final? (here's hoping...) - If both teams score and we lose by just one goal after 90 minutes, it goes to extra time? - Following a one-goal defeat after 90 minutes (see point above), if the score difference remains the same after extra time (even if it's 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, etc), we go through? - If Liverpool win 1-0 after 90 minutes, it goes to extra time, then penalties, if it remains thus at the end of extra time? (This one actually makes sense) - If Liverpool win by 2 clear goals or more, they go through? Sorry for sounding Australian with all those question marks. Just trying to clarify the fog of qualifying. "13.5 In the Semi-Final ties, if the aggregate score is level at the end of the second game an extra half-hour shall be played. If the aggregate scores are still level at the end of extra time the tie shall be decided by goals scored away from home counting twice. If the teams remain equal after this procedure the tie shall be determined by the taking of kicks from the penalty mark in accordance with the Laws of Association Football." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 25 January, 2017 Share Posted 25 January, 2017 Some parts are missing Hamilton. Here's the full version. "13.5 In the Semi-Final ties, if the aggregate score is level at the end of the second game an extra half-hour shall be played, regardless of which team has more away goals at that stage. This is to give the home team an extra 30 minutes to come up with a winner in front of their own fans. If the aggregate scores are still level at the end of extra time the tie shall reluctantly be decided by goals scored away from home counting twice. If the teams remain equal after this procedure the tie shall be determined by the taking of kicks from the penalty mark in accordance with the Laws of Association Football." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 25 January, 2017 Share Posted 25 January, 2017 Some parts are missing Hamilton. Here's the full version. "13.5 In the Semi-Final ties, if the aggregate score is level at the end of the second game an extra half-hour shall be played, regardless of which team has more away goals at that stage. This is to give the home team an extra 30 minutes to come up with a winner in front of their own fans. If the aggregate scores are still level at the end of extra time the tie shall reluctantly be decided by goals scored away from home counting twice. If the teams remain equal after this procedure the tie shall be determined by the taking of kicks from the penalty mark in accordance with the Laws of Association Football." Right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 25 January, 2017 Share Posted 25 January, 2017 (edited) Some parts are missing Hamilton. Here's the full version. "13.5 In the Semi-Final ties, if the aggregate score is level at the end of the second game an extra half-hour shall be played, regardless of which team has more away goals at that stage. This is to give the home team an extra 30 minutes to come up with a winner in front of their own fans. If the aggregate scores are still level at the end of extra time the tie shall reluctantly be decided by goals scored away from home counting twice. If the teams remain equal after this procedure the tie shall be determined by the taking of kicks from the penalty mark in accordance with the Laws of Association Football." Or, we've got 33% more time to score an away goal than our opponents. Or, it goes to extra time and Liverpool score in the first or last minute of that extra time but it doesn't matter a damn as long as we score once. Or, we're the only side that can go into ET knowing that if nothing changes, we win. Or, it's easier to score an away goal in the 115th minute of a match than it is the 10th minute of the first tie. Quite frankly it is utterly ridiculous that away goals are a thing in a domestic cup like this. No way should they be counted. But, dems the rules so let's do it. Edited 25 January, 2017 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 25 January, 2017 Share Posted 25 January, 2017 Quite frankly it is utterly ridiculous that away goals are a thing in a domestic cup like this. No way should they be counted. But, dems the rules so let's do it. I'm disappointed that the away goals rule is still a thing in any competition. It was brought in for European competitions when it was a genuine challenge for teams to travel across Europe and get a result. These days, every team flies on chartered private jets and stays in luxury hotels, and there is very little "mystery" attached to any away game because of the amount of footage available of every team you might ever come up against. For them to have brought it into domestic football was a huge mistake and continues to be such. Strangely, the Football League ditched the away goals rule in the playoffs more than ten years ago because it was producing dull matches with the home sides unwilling to take the risk of conceding away goals, and yet they've kept it in for their primary cup competition all this time. IMO, if the tie is level after the second leg, it should go straight to penalties - that way, no team has any inherent advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 25 January, 2017 Share Posted 25 January, 2017 I'm disappointed that the away goals rule is still a thing in any competition. It was brought in for European competitions when it was a genuine challenge for teams to travel across Europe and get a result. These days, every team flies on chartered private jets and stays in luxury hotels, and there is very little "mystery" attached to any away game because of the amount of footage available of every team you might ever come up against. For them to have brought it into domestic football was a huge mistake and continues to be such. Strangely, the Football League ditched the away goals rule in the playoffs more than ten years ago because it was producing dull matches with the home sides unwilling to take the risk of conceding away goals, and yet they've kept it in for their primary cup competition all this time. IMO, if the tie is level after the second leg, it should go straight to penalties - that way, no team has any inherent advantage. Unless you support Saints and we're 1-0 up after the home leg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordic Saint Posted 25 January, 2017 Share Posted 25 January, 2017 I'm disappointed that the away goals rule is still a thing in any competition. It was brought in for European competitions when it was a genuine challenge for teams to travel across Europe and get a result. These days, every team flies on chartered private jets and stays in luxury hotels, and there is very little "mystery" attached to any away game because of the amount of footage available of every team you might ever come up against. For them to have brought it into domestic football was a huge mistake and continues to be such. Strangely, the Football League ditched the away goals rule in the playoffs more than ten years ago because it was producing dull matches with the home sides unwilling to take the risk of conceding away goals, and yet they've kept it in for their primary cup competition all this time. IMO, if the tie is level after the second leg, it should go straight to penalties - that way, no team has any inherent advantage. I'm not! If we score a goal tonight, Liverpool will need to score 3, and that's something they haven't done against us in any of our last 6 visits to Anfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 25 January, 2017 Share Posted 25 January, 2017 I'm disappointed that the away goals rule is still a thing in any competition. It was brought in for European competitions when it was a genuine challenge for teams to travel across Europe and get a result. These days, every team flies on chartered private jets and stays in luxury hotels, and there is very little "mystery" attached to any away game because of the amount of footage available of every team you might ever come up against. For them to have brought it into domestic football was a huge mistake and continues to be such. Strangely, the Football League ditched the away goals rule in the playoffs more than ten years ago because it was producing dull matches with the home sides unwilling to take the risk of conceding away goals, and yet they've kept it in for their primary cup competition all this time. IMO, if the tie is level after the second leg, it should go straight to penalties - that way, no team has any inherent advantage. Agree 100%, including your comments about European football. European away matches are just routine now and should be treated as such. For tonight there's no logical reason why us scoring a goal at Anfield is worth double/more than a goal scored by the home team. It's something we have done literally hundreds of times before. Bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 25 January, 2017 Share Posted 25 January, 2017 I'm disappointed that the away goals rule is still a thing in any competition. It was brought in for European competitions when it was a genuine challenge for teams to travel across Europe and get a result. These days, every team flies on chartered private jets and stays in luxury hotels, and there is very little "mystery" attached to any away game because of the amount of footage available of every team you might ever come up against. For them to have brought it into domestic football was a huge mistake and continues to be such. Strangely, the Football League ditched the away goals rule in the playoffs more than ten years ago because it was producing dull matches with the home sides unwilling to take the risk of conceding away goals, and yet they've kept it in for their primary cup competition all this time. IMO, if the tie is level after the second leg, it should go straight to penalties - that way, no team has any inherent advantage. Agreed on all points. But if they are going to use it in this competition it makes no sense to only apply after extra time. The whole point of having an away goals rule is to avoid extra time (which neither side wants or needs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 25 January, 2017 Share Posted 25 January, 2017 Or, we've got 33% more time to score an away goal than our opponents. Or, it goes to extra time and Liverpool score in the first or last minute of that extra time but it doesn't matter a damn as long as we score once. Or, we're the only side that can go into ET knowing that if nothing changes, we win. Or, it's easier to score an away goal in the 115th minute of a match than it is the 10th minute of the first tie. Quite frankly it is utterly ridiculous that away goals are a thing in a domestic cup like this. No way should they be counted. But, dems the rules so let's do it. So we agree then, in order of preference: 1. No away goals rule. 2. Away goals rule as it's been done in Europe for the last 50+ years. 3. Away goals only count after extra time in the second leg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW5 SAINT Posted 25 January, 2017 Share Posted 25 January, 2017 And who can forget, the first victim of the new three up three down promotion/relegation rule in 1974. On a then I 'think" record 36 points going down....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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