Unbelievable Jeff Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 I see Surrey County Council are to hold a referendum to see whether people would be prepared to increase council tax payments by 15% to cater for social care within the county. Personally I think it's a good idea - the strain on the NHS at present is ridiculous, and the increase in social care places will help to ease that in the counties hospitals. Hopefully some others will also take notice, and hold these - although it will be interesting to see how many people are interested in paying more to help the man on the street, and ultimately, themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 15% !! Its gone up 4% in my borough and everyones losing their s4it over that increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 (edited) At some point we are going to have to make some hard decisions. People are living much longer, but the number of healthy years of life isnt increasing. Demand for healthcare is growing massively each year and increases in public spending wont be able to keep up with need. We are going to have to consider some kind of cut off age, after which you only get palliative care. I read last week of a 99 year old being aggressively treated for cancer. What is the point? Edited 19 January, 2017 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 As one who will be turning 60 in a fortnight I think it's a cracking idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 wont the care homes just put up their prices? The cost of an old person in care is pretty expensive £1000+ a week is not uncommon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 wont the care homes just put up their prices? The cost of an old person in care is pretty expensive £1000+ a week is not uncommon The cost is getting ridiculous. Just send them all on a cruise somehwere, it would be a lot cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 The cost is getting ridiculous. Just send them all on a cruise somewhere, it would be a lot cheaper. My neighbour in her 80s has had homecare - 2 people four times a day, seven days pw for the past seven years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 19 January, 2017 Author Share Posted 19 January, 2017 At some point we are going to have to make some hard decisions. People are living much longer, but the number of healthy years of life isnt increasing. Demand for healthcare is growing massively each year and increases in public spending wont be able to keep up with need. We are going to have to consider some kind of cut off age, after which you only get palliative care. I read last week of a 99 year old being aggressively treated for cancer. What is the point? Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 19 January, 2017 Author Share Posted 19 January, 2017 The cost is getting ridiculous. Just send them all on a cruise somehwere, it would be a lot cheaper. And then sink the boat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 I see Surrey County Council are to hold a referendum to see whether people would be prepared to increase council tax payments by 15% to cater for social care within the county. How much of that 15% will pay for bureaucracy and how much will pay for the actual care...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 19 January, 2017 Author Share Posted 19 January, 2017 How much of that 15% will pay for bureaucracy and how much will pay for the actual care...? I am assuming that the Bureaucracy is already built into the original Council Tax costs - so I'm hoping none! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 19 January, 2017 Author Share Posted 19 January, 2017 Here is the link to the story: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/surrey-county-council-referendum-council-tax-rise-hike-15-per-cent-social-care-a7535091.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 (edited) How much of that 15% will pay for bureaucracy and how much will pay for the actual care...? Are you one of those people who demands an external market, detailed record keeping, background checks, qualified staff, close supervision of care givers, regular needs assessment, eligibility interviews and 365 day service - but complains about bureaucracy? If it wasnt for bureaucracy the country could care for the 10 million disabled people, including 6.7 million of working age all for the price of a pint of milk and a copy of the Daily Express dontchaknow. Edited 19 January, 2017 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 And then sink the boat? Shoooooooosh..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 There is plenty of money around to pay for decent care for the elderly. It's only a 'crisis' in the minds of today's greedy ****ers who are obsessed with buying pointless gadgets and the latest German car. Just increase the tax and give the elderly the care they need. The very people moaning will be the people expecting to get their asses wiped in a few years time when they are in need of care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 Are you one of those people who demands an external market, detailed record keeping, background checks, qualified staff, close supervision of care givers, regular needs assessment, eligibility interviews and 365 day service - but complains about bureaucracy? If it wasnt for bureaucracy the country could care for the 10 million disabled people, including 6.7 million of working age all for the price of a pint of milk and a copy of the Daily Express dontchaknow.6.7m disabled of working age! So about 1in 5 of the working population. Im not sure what qualifies for being disabled but that does seem a lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 6.7m disabled of working age! So about 1in 5 of the working population. Im not sure what qualifies for being disabled but that does seem a lot I dont know how that figure is arrived at. Presumably it includes some people with relatively minor issues http://www.dlf.org.uk/content/key-facts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 Surrey County Council has obviously not been paying attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecuk268 Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 There is plenty of money around to pay for decent care for the elderly. It's only a 'crisis' in the minds of today's greedy ****ers who are obsessed with buying pointless gadgets and the latest German car. Just increase the tax and give the elderly the care they need. The very people moaning will be the people expecting to get their asses wiped in a few years time when they are in need of care. Completely agree. The politicians are scared to increase taxes because they think it'll cost votes. Putting social care into private hands is always going to cause a conflict of profits versus quality of care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 19 January, 2017 Author Share Posted 19 January, 2017 Surrey County Council has obviously not been paying attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 Crazy idea, this money should come from an increase in corporation tax, increase in the top rate of tax and cracking down on aggressive tax avoidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 Surrey County Council has obviously not been paying attention. You know the NHS doesn't fund 'social care' though right? 'Social care' is funded by the local councils from their own budgets. Whilst I totally agree that the whole system needs completely overhauling, I think it also needs much tougher scrutiny as there are far too many company's making far too much money whilst operating under the banner of providing 'care'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 You know the NHS doesn't fund 'social care' though right? 'Social care' is funded by the local councils from their own budgets. Whilst I totally agree that the whole system needs completely overhauling, I think it also needs much tougher scrutiny as there are far too many company's making far too much money whilst operating under the banner of providing 'care'. Yes I do. What's your point? Funding pressures in the NHS are requiring other parts of the system e.g. social care to do more of the heavy lifting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 Nice of central govt to pass the nasty decisions onto the local govt. There's only no money as they have been slashing grants for last 8 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 Nice of central govt to pass the nasty decisions onto the local govt. There's only no money as they have been slashing grants for last 8 years No, no, no. They have been making Local Government more efficient and cost-aware. ( This post was brought to you by an 'efficiency saving' ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 Nice of central govt to pass the nasty decisions onto the local govt. There's only no money as they have been slashing grants for last 8 years Agreed, giving the people a referendum on it is also a cop out. If people vote for it then they can't complain about the increase in tax, vote against it and oh look, aren't the voters nasty people. I'd vote against it purely because this could easily be covered by closing tax loopholes for highest earners and corporations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 And then sink the boat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 The answer is not increasing taxes. It never ever raises the money it claims it will and always gets wasted. 15 years down the line they'll still be a crisis and a new generation of useless politicians will propose increasing taxes. We already pay too much tax in this country , but it is dished out to too many people instead of being concentrated on the deserving. Perhaps we could use the foreign aid budget to fund the care of our own people. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 19 January, 2017 Share Posted 19 January, 2017 The answer is not increasing taxes. It never ever raises the money it claims it will and always gets wasted. 15 years down the line they'll still be a crisis and a new generation of useless politicians will propose increasing taxes. We already pay too much tax in this country , but it is dished out to too many people instead of being concentrated on the deserving. Perhaps we could use the foreign aid budget to fund the care of our own people. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Yeah fck taxes they never work to create a better society. And how about that foreign aid taken from your hard earned pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 Yeah fck taxes they never work to create a better society. Talk about selective reading. Did I say tax was a bad thing. No, I just said that we pay way too much in tax already. We waste an incredible amount of tax payers money, why should we waste even more to fund social care. If we had a sensible welfare system , a modern NHS & stopped paying millions to foreign citizens we could find social care without tapping up the hard working taxpayer again. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 Talk about selective reading. Did I say tax was a bad thing. No, I just said that we pay way too much in tax already. We waste an incredible amount of tax payers money, why should we waste even more to fund social care. If we had a sensible welfare system , a modern NHS & stopped paying millions to foreign citizens we could find social care without tapping up the hard working taxpayer again. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Did you listen to the leader of Surrey Council's. explanation? Central govt have reduced their budget by over £500m over recent years so they can no longer provide these services. Your rationale is that if part of that shortfall is now provided via local taxpayers, rather than central govt, then this will just be wasted is somewhat weak. And the good old it will only be 'wasted' line is always brought out by the selfish and greedy. Odd that these Tory run shire councils are so full of fat. What have they been doing all these years? Employing endless 'non jobs' no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 Currently in a certain NHS trust it costs £3000 to wall mount a TV you could get for £200 from curry's. You keep throwing money at anything, it just goes down the drain because of bad contracts. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 The NHS trust my missus works in currently pays £120k a week for a 'spare bed' in the ICU unit at a lush private hospital. Imagine how many times that is replicated across the trust Agency nurses and doctors are paid a fecking fortune. She negotiated just shy of £100 an hour to work 12 hours xmas eve (as an ICU Nurse). Imagine what the doctors earn (hence why many are so against the new junior doctors deal as it will make the opportunities to work for agencies like that a great deal harder) The Trust is working very hard to get people off of these Agencies but can only do so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 Currently in a certain NHS trust it costs £3000 to wall mount a TV you could get for £200 from curry's. You keep throwing money at anything, it just goes down the drain because of bad contracts. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk So shall we cut back NHS spending further then? Agree shocking waste on some of these contracts. All in the the name of private outsourced efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 Currently in a certain NHS trust it costs £3000 to wall mount a TV you could get for £200 from curry's. You keep throwing money at anything, it just goes down the drain because of bad contracts. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk If it is run that bad there is going to be wastage no matter how much money is thrown at it - that is certainly not a reason to not fund it properly. The bad management needs to be sorted out AND there needs to be an increase in funding - paid by taxes of people who can afford it most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 If it is run that bad there is going to be wastage no matter how much money is thrown at it - that is certainly not a reason to not fund it properly. The bad management needs to be sorted out AND there needs to be an increase in funding - paid by taxes of people who can afford it most. Why? You sort out the contracts to free up wasted money so extra money isn't needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 Why? You sort out the contracts to free up wasted money so extra money isn't needed. You know contracting out was how the waste got introduced in the first place? - cost of competitive tendering, two sets of contract managers, IT systems, recording of activity, billing and profit all taken out before you even pay for the service? Oh of course you didnt, just another headbanger who thinks most publicly run services must be wasteful and all you have to do to get almost free services and zero tax is to hand it all to a private company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 You know contracting out was how the waste got introduced in the first place? - cost of competitive tendering, two sets of contract managers, IT systems, recording of activity, billing and profit all taken out before you even pay for the service? Oh of course you didnt, just another headbanger who thinks most publicly run services must be wasteful and all you have to do to get almost free services and zero tax is to hand it all to a private company. Or maybe a family member of mine is a band 6 working in the NHS, and I'm quite aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dellboypete Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 I live in surrey and we've already got some of the highest council taxes in the UK outside London. I can't see many residents being happy with this. Although I agree that extra cash has to come from somewhere I'm not sure if this is the best way. The thing that pi**es me off about SCC is that their main offices aren't even in Surrey but in Kingston on Thames.. Obviuosly used to be in surrey but had been a London borough for a long time. As a result most of the people who work there don't even live in Surrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 Or maybe a family member of mine is a band 6 working in the NHS, and I'm quite aware. You missed the point. The waste is there because of the contracting out. Contracting out brings in additional costs and inefficiencies which weren't there before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 You missed the point. The waste is there because of the contracting out. Contracting out brings in additional costs and inefficiencies which weren't there before. Surely that's only true if the NHS procurement department(s) aren't very good at their job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 January, 2017 Author Share Posted 20 January, 2017 Agreed, giving the people a referendum on it is also a cop out. If people vote for it then they can't complain about the increase in tax, vote against it and oh look, aren't the voters nasty people. I'd vote against it purely because this could easily be covered by closing tax loopholes for highest earners and corporations. Yes, but that won't happen and it's local councils responsibility, so this is the next best I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 The problem is that historic pensions take so much much of the council tax we pay. So many of the council pensions were far too generous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 Surely that's only true if the NHS procurement department(s) aren't very good at their job? You need to do some research. Sure you see PWC, Deloitte, Capita etc. and admire such shrewd operators fleecing the services as consultants or providers and pocketing the coin. Even then you'll be saying the procurement wasn't right as if that is the issue. Although tend to agree they don't have same financial nous to realise they are getting done up like kippers. However is that public sector fault as they don't tend to be awash with staff with good business acumen and negotiating deals and these companies know it? Men against boys IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 The problem is that historic pensions take so much much of the council tax we pay. So many of the council pensions were far too generous. Got any evidence for that? Cut services and yeah it's the poor old bin man pension that is the cause. Worrying how many dumb easily spun people there are out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 (edited) Got any evidence for that? Cut services and yeah it's the poor old bin man pension that is the cause. Worrying how many dumb easily spun people there are out there. http://money.aol.co.uk/2015/10/30/how-much-are-you-paying-for-council-pensions-brace-yourself/ (Amongst many other sources) Council Tax is only one part of Council budget. The rest is primarily from (ur) government, i.e. general taxation. Perhaps they could cut some of their overheads instead? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2861099/215K-year-council-boss-defends-huge-salary-job-s-difficult-responsibilities.html Edited 20 January, 2017 by Whitey Grandad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 January, 2017 Author Share Posted 20 January, 2017 I live in surrey and we've already got some of the highest council taxes in the UK outside London. I can't see many residents being happy with this. Although I agree that extra cash has to come from somewhere I'm not sure if this is the best way. The thing that pi**es me off about SCC is that their main offices aren't even in Surrey but in Kingston on Thames.. Obviuosly used to be in surrey but had been a London borough for a long time. As a result most of the people who work there don't even live in Surrey. I don't know, speaking to my mates and family in Surrey most seem to be up for the idea, as am I (also a Surrey resident). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 January, 2017 Author Share Posted 20 January, 2017 You missed the point. The waste is there because of the contracting out. Contracting out brings in additional costs and inefficiencies which weren't there before. There's a middle ground to all of this though, it just has to be well-managed, which we don't seem to do very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 January, 2017 Author Share Posted 20 January, 2017 Got any evidence for that? Cut services and yeah it's the poor old bin man pension that is the cause. Worrying how many dumb easily spun people there are out there. 52% of the population Whelk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 20 January, 2017 Share Posted 20 January, 2017 http://money.aol.co.uk/2015/10/30/how-much-are-you-paying-for-council-pensions-brace-yourself/ (Amongst many other sources) Council Tax is only one part of Council budget. The rest is primarily from (ur) government, i.e. general taxation. Perhaps they could cut some of their overheads instead? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2861099/215K-year-council-boss-defends-huge-salary-job-s-difficult-responsibilities.html I am aware how funded. Sorry can't be arsed with the link to a daily mail article as sure to be one of the ones they have on tap just to get the likes of you frothing and suitably angry as to why a special needs kid can't get the services they needs in one of the richest economies in one of the most prosperous parts of the UK. In no way this is tax or cut based, just wasting it all on expensive plants or paying someone managing a billion pound budget £200k (and more than the PM don't you know). All the usual Tory spin goes out the window when a Tory led council is raising the issue. Akin to Oxfordshire situation when the naive David Cameron replied with some blithe b0llocks to the Tory leader when his mum was campaigning against cuts. Anyway views are entrenched and all the selfish bastards who like to take what they can from society and hate the thought of giving any back to the less well off or vulnerable will not be swayed. Wish they would just acknowledge that rather than cry waste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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