Player fitness, rotation, training, etc.

[Pass the Dutchie]

Some people on here seem to hold a somewhat simplistic view on player fitness, and how much energy it takes to play a professional football game. “Can’t these millionaires run around for more than 90 minutes a week? Isn’t that what they’re paid for? Look at so and so in that other sport!”

 

The weekly physical activity of our players obviously doesn’t start at the beginning of a game and end at the final whistle. Don’t forget that teams train a few hours almost every day of the week, often at high intensity. Recovery time is a very important factor in any sport at any level.

 

Injuries due to overload are very common, and even though teams sometimes take that risk with certain key players, it’s a good idea if it can be avoided. How to find that perfect balance? When does rotation stop being a good idea and start becoming a negative influence?

 

Puel seems to take this to the extreme sometimes, which looks like a fantastic idea when the results are great and looks like a bad idea when the results disappoint. We also all want to see our young ones getting chances, and we also all want to see our best team every time.

 

Does anyone know what a typical week for our first team players actually looks like from day to day?

[trousers]

Some people on here seem to hold a somewhat simplistic view on player fitness, and how much energy it takes to play a professional football game. “Can’t these millionaires run around for more than 90 minutes a week? Isn’t that what they’re paid for? Look at so and so in that other sport!”

 

I would venture that certain posters who post this mantra do so in the knowledge that it's BS but get a kick out of posting bait for the unsuspecting to bite upon...

[Greenridge]

When does rotation stop being a good idea and start becoming a negative influence?

 

 

Do you not think that if it was such an innovative idea that gave a huge advantage that all the big clubs, well all clubs for that matter, would be doing the same? Surely little ol' Southampton haven't beaten everyone else to this strategy.

[Toadhall Saint]

My only issue with rotation is that there is no incentive for any of the players to do well in each game. If they play an absolute blinder and are the hero of the hour it means nothing as they will not be playing the next game - so no incentive to do well. Likewise if they play like a donkey.

[mrfahaji]

Puel seems to take this to the extreme sometimes, which looks like a fantastic idea when the results are great and looks like a bad idea when the results disappoint. We also all want to see our young ones getting chances, and we also all want to see our best team every time.

 

If you look at most of our '1 for 1' rotation it doesn't seem so bad. Is Clasie for Hojbjerg a huge up- or downgrade? As much as Bertrand is a great player, McQueen has acquitted himself very well. Yoshida has put in MOTM level performances at times while Fonte has looked a bit suspect.

 

The issue is more that our best XI isn't strong to start with, so slighty weakening a couple of positions doesn't turn a very good side into a good one, but rather an average side into a poor one. Nowhere illuminates the overall problem more than central midfield (forwards yes, but Austin is injured). Romeu plays every week because without him we look terribly soft through the middle, so no rest for him, and we are left to rotate a handful of players in the hope that a combination will click and come to life. So far it hasn't, because they are all much of a muchness. We can at least see the pairings that simply don't work (JWP & Clasie), even though Puel still went with this option in the last game...

[USA SaintsFan]

Le Tiss doesn't appear to be a fan of the rotation policy ... https://mobile.twitter.com/mattletiss7/status/817070263015763968

[Channon's Sideburns]

Eddie Izzard ran 27 marathons in 27 consecutive days.

 

They're paid an obscene amount of money to be fit, and to be able to play numerous amounts of games.

 

Players want to play.

 

What they don't want, is to put a decent shift in, perform well, then be dropped the next game for 'rotation' reasons only.

 

It's a crock of *****.

[Pass the Dutchie]

Eddie Izzard ran 27 marathons in 27 consecutive days.

 

Just be cause he did that (once in his life) doesn't make it a good or healthy idea.

[CB Saint]

Eddie Izzard ran 27 marathons in 27 consecutive days.

 

They're paid an obscene amount of money to be fit, and to be able to play numerous amounts of games.

 

Players want to play.

 

What they don't want, is to put a decent shift in, perform well, then be dropped the next game for 'rotation' reasons only.

 

It's a crock of *****.

 

 

That is a poor comparison

 

He took 5hr 30 mins to run each one - hardly elite level performance. I m sure that if our players jogged along at 50% effort they could then play every day, but we would be ****ted 25-0 every game. There is a reason why managers kick off every time the schedule backs up - High intensity activity needs proper recovery otherwise it leads to sub par performance and / or injury.

 

Of course a few fat blokes down the pub know better.

[trousers]

Eddie Izzard ran 27 marathons in 27 consecutive days.

 

And ended up in hospital on day 4 due to over exerting his body. Great analogy though

 

[doddisalegend]

Do you not think that if it was such an innovative idea that gave a huge advantage that all the big clubs, well all clubs for that matter, would be doing the same? Surely little ol' Southampton haven't beaten everyone else to this strategy.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure Liverpool and spurs rotated heavily in the europa league last season.

 

In fact didn't Brendan put out weakend Liverpool teams in Liverpool's CL campaign couple of seasons back including away at Real?

[DuncanRG]

To sum up, our arguments against the expertise of professional physios and scientists hinge on Eddie Izzard and Matt Le Tissier. Great!

 

Do you not think that if it was such an innovative idea that gave a huge advantage that all the big clubs, well all clubs for that matter, would be doing the same? Surely little ol' Southampton haven't beaten everyone else to this strategy.

 

This is something that everyone does to some extent. Football fans tend not to notice the changes other teams make between games because it's dull - especially when middling teams play in the Europa League, which is our best point of comparison, rather than big clubs with squads full of expensive talent. But you will see weakened teams from English clubs in the Europa League almost as standard in the group stage. As mentioned above, Liverpool and Spurs did it, United did it this year despite all their riches. It is normal.

Edited 6 January, 2017 by DuncanRG

[Greenridge]

To sum up, our arguments against the expertise of professional physios and scientists hinge on Eddie Izzard and Matt Le Tissier. Great!

 

 

 

This is something that everyone does to some extent. Football fans tend not to notice the changes other teams make between games because it's dull - especially when middling teams play in the Europa League, which is our best point of comparison, rather than big clubs with squads full of expensive talent. But you will see weakened teams from English clubs in the Europa League almost as standard in the group stage. As mentioned above, Liverpool and Spurs did it, United did it this year despite all their riches. It is normal.

 

Indeed they do but not to the tune of 5 - 8 pretty much every single week. No one does that on a regular basis. No one.

[DuncanRG]

Without the effort of going through the numbers we're not informed enough to discuss it properly, but it seems to me that what we really had, in line with common practice, was a league team and a Europa team, both of which were fairly stable. That changed with injuries and the festive fixtures, as you have to expect, but it's not like we've been rotating from Saturday to Saturday with no game inbetween. That would be unusual.

 

5-8 is surely off the mark as well, more like 4-6.

 

Again, though, why not trust the people who know? They know about their meals, their training regimes, their individual muscles, everything. We know diddly squat. It's not quite like the day to day pub chat of football, where opinions matter, it's science above all.

Edited 6 January, 2017 by DuncanRG

[Whitey Grandad]

Again, though, why not trust the people who know? They know about their meals, their training regimes, their individual muscles, everything. We know diddly squat. It's not quite like the day to day pub chat of football, where opinions matter, it's science above all.

 

Results would seem to indicate otherwise.

[DuncanRG]

No, they wouldn't. We have no idea how a different approach to team selection would have affected the results. We can claim that certain players are fit enough to play every game, but we don't really have a clue. Football isn't a science but fitness is.

 

Far more productive to talk, as you have, about how Puel uses energy conservation in his tactics and how that might be hurting us.

Edited 6 January, 2017 by DuncanRG

[trousers]

Something to bear in mind is that, on average, we've had 24 hours less recovery time between games this season compared to last. I'm no expert (at anything... does it show?) but one assumes that the loss of that extra day can make a significant difference to each player's recovery cycle.

[Heisenberg]

Just ignore Fonte hes just trolling

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/12/06/jose-fonte-reveals-frustration-claude-puels-southampton-rotation/amp/?client=ms-android-samsung

[Whitey Grandad]

No, they wouldn't. We have no idea how a different approach to team selection would have affected the results. We can claim that certain players are fit enough to play every game, but we don't really have a clue. Football isn't a science but fitness is.

 

Far more productive to talk, as you have, about how Puel uses energy conservation in his tactics and how that might be hurting us.

 

But the rotation obviously hasn't worked.

 

But the talk is all about individual players and not about achieving a team. What we have is a group of individual talents who are constantly having to adjust to different arrangements. It's a bit like having an orchestra who have never played a particular piece before and are having to read every note before playing it.

[benjii]

Eddie Izzard ran 27 marathons in 27 consecutive days.

 

They're paid an obscene amount of money to be fit, and to be able to play numerous amounts of games.

 

Players want to play.

 

What they don't want, is to put a decent shift in, perform well, then be dropped the next game for 'rotation' reasons only.

 

It's a crock of *****.

 

Wow. What a brilliant point!

 

Great point.

 

Seriously, good one.

[DuncanRG]

But the rotation obviously hasn't worked.

 

But the talk is all about individual players and not about achieving a team. What we have is a group of individual talents who are constantly having to adjust to different arrangements. It's a bit like having an orchestra who have never played a particular piece before and are having to read every note before playing it.

 

I'm with you there, but we don't know how effective or otherwise the alternatives would be. Would tiring players out be better or not? It's an open question. It is of course possible that fitness isn't the only consideration and there is other (potentially flawed) reasoning, but we don't really know and I'm loath to speculate. In fact, I'd like to hear Puel answer that question.

 

EDIT: Bad news for rotation sceptics - Puel's dropped a hint that he'll pick some youngsters for Liverpool

Edited 6 January, 2017 by DuncanRG

[Heisenberg]

Perhaps the obsession with the rotation and giving youth a chance is more because the senior pros simply laugh at Puel everytime he talks

 

Or is the club simply having a shocker to reset fans expectations so we will be delighted to finish 10th next season

[Whitey Grandad]

Perhaps the obsession with the rotation and giving youth a chance is more because the senior pros simply laugh at Puel everytime he talks

 

Or is the club simply having a shocker to reset fans expectations so we will be delighted to finish 10th next season

 

To be honest I'd be disappoined with 10th in the Championship.

[Whitey Grandad]

I'm with you there, but we don't know how effective or otherwise the alternatives would be. Would tiring players out be better or not? It's an open question. It is of course possible that fitness isn't the only consideration and there is other (potentially flawed) reasoning, but we don't really know and I'm loath to speculate. In fact, I'd like to hear Puel answer that question.

 

Are you sure you're in the right place?

 

I'd like to hear Puel answer anything. In French even. This rotation malarkey might work in a slower league with fewer top-quality teams, France for example, but the Premier League is notoriously fast and unrelenting. There are no easy rides here.

[Baird of the land]

Rotation is getting maligned unfairly imo. It's pretty essential when there's very small gaps between games imo as we've had over an unfair xmas period and europa league cup run season. Not only the risk of injuries but just simple sharpness. Many of the players who have come in have done well(Yoshida, Mcqueen, Sims etc)

Also our so called senior pros, first xi have thrown in some of worst displays of season. Actually our depth in terms of performance between first x1 and rotated xi has been rather minimal as far as i can tell. That's pretty damning to the so called first xi, who haven't come near to levels of previous seasons.

[Whitey Grandad]

Rotation is getting maligned unfairly imo. It's pretty essential when there's very small gaps between games imo as we've had over an unfair xmas period and europa league cup run season. Not only the risk of injuries but just simple sharpness. Many of the players who have come in have done well(Yoshida, Mcqueen, Sims etc)

Also our so called senior pros, first xi have thrown in some of worst displays of season. Actually our depth in terms of performance between first x1 and rotated xi has been rather minimal as far as i can tell. That's pretty damning to the so called first xi, who haven't come near to levels of previous seasons.

 

Yoshida, who was at fault for the West Brom equaliser? I don't think anybody, not even Puel, could tell you what our first XI was.

 

I posted this earlier on another thread:

 

'The lack of goals and slow play is down to the constant rotation in my opinion. Midfielders are constantly having to pause and look for the forwards and any runs they might make. Up front there is no instinctive understanding between the forwards, the player making the cross doesn't automatically know where the attacker will be, no rapid interchange of positions to pull the defence around. This is not helped by playing only one up front even when we're at home. They always used to say that the best strikers operated in partnerships but we don't have one of those. We end up with very few 'team' goals and rely on set pieces or flashes of individual brilliance from Boufal or Bertrand sometimes or even Clasie.

 

The defence had been ok earlier in the season but changing 3/4 of the back four against WBA was asking for trouble. Instead of being a linked chain across the back small gaps develop which are exploited by quality players. Yoshida getting turned for their equaliser being an example. He was slightly out of position and got easily turned by Phillips who then had a free uncontested shot on goal.'

 

So, the big question is whether it is better to stick with a settled side, who may get a bit mentally tired or slightly off the pace, or to have a wholesale rotation of players and a resulting lack of fluidity and cohesion? Or are we only going to get a settled side once we are out of the cups and have nothing left to play for?

[Convict Colony]

Thought I'd do a check to look at the total possible mins (Europa & League) v actual v current average performance rating from Whoscored - https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/18

 

Interesting that we only have 3 players rated higher than 7 (Virg, Charlie and Sof) and Virgil is the freak of our team both in performance and outfield players endurance (He has played 1709 mins out of a possible 1800 mins so only missed 91mins!!!)

 

Some of the other players:

 

Oriol played 1632mins in total so missed 168mins

Redmond played 1582mins in total so missed 218mins

Davo has missed 5 games

Pierre has missed 10 games

Jay Rod has missed 14 games in total !!

 

It then leads me to ask if Puel is pushing the "rotation is important for rest and recovery" routine then why does Virgil hardly ever get rotated out of any Euro/PL games ?

 

You either rest your players and make the changes or you don't, yet him and Romeu are basically playing every game they can, Claude can't have it both ways.

 

There should be a hell of a pick up in the 2nd half of the season given some of the minutes a lot of our key players have rested.

 

Also for the JWP has been playing better this season "he's one of ours so have to pump up his tyres" bias, he is currently averaging 6.58 (both Europe/PL), the previous 3 seasons he averaged 6.55/6.65/6.62.

 

I know these are just "stats" but stats are the only metrics we have to use for a factually based discussion rather than "individual interpretation".

[Pamplemousse]

The players do major and extensive physical tests in pre-season, and we have an excellent sports science team who know more about the player's fitness levels than probably the players do themselves.

 

Puel clearly has more information available to him than we do and so if he says that Romeu and VVD can play more games, then they are obviously fitter than the rest of the squad.

[Convict Colony]

The players do major and extensive physical tests in pre-season, and we have an excellent sports science team who know more about the player's fitness levels than probably the players do themselves.

 

Puel clearly has more information available to him than we do and so if he says that Romeu and VVD can play more games, then they are obviously fitter than the rest of the squad.

 

Then the fitness team need to sharpen up if the rest of our lot are slacking

[Heisenberg]

Thought I'd do a check to look at the total possible mins (Europa & League) v actual v current average performance rating from Whoscored - https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/18

 

Interesting that we only have 3 players rated higher than 7 (Virg, Charlie and Sof) and Virgil is the freak of our team both in performance and outfield players endurance (He has played 1709 mins out of a possible 1800 mins so only missed 91mins!!!)

 

Some of the other players:

 

Oriol played 1632mins in total so missed 168mins

Redmond played 1582mins in total so missed 218mins

Davo has missed 5 games

Pierre has missed 10 games

Jay Rod has missed 14 games in total !!

 

It then leads me to ask if Puel is pushing the "rotation is important for rest and recovery" routine then why does Virgil hardly ever get rotated out of any Euro/PL games ?

 

You either rest your players and make the changes or you don't, yet him and Romeu are basically playing every game they can, Claude can't have it both ways.

 

There should be a hell of a pick up in the 2nd half of the season given some of the minutes a lot of our key players have rested.

 

Also for the JWP has been playing better this season "he's one of ours so have to pump up his tyres" bias, he is currently averaging 6.58, the previous 3seasons he averaged 6.55/6.65/6.62.

 

I know these are just "stats" but stats are the only metrics we have to use for a factually based discussion rather than "individual interpretation".

 

Good post mate

 

Doesn't seem to matter what way you cut n slice it this season (so far) has been rubbish

 

BUT the good news is players are fresh and i for one expect a Koeman sized bounce for this half

 

COYR

[Greenridge]

The players do major and extensive physical tests in pre-season, and we have an excellent sports science team who know more about the player's fitness levels than probably the players do themselves.

 

Puel clearly has more information available to him than we do and so if he says that Romeu and VVD can play more games, then they are obviously fitter than the rest of the squad.

 

It's not obviously the case whatsoever. Talk about speculation.

[Baird of the land]

Yoshida, who was at fault for the West Brom equaliser? I don't think anybody, not even Puel, could tell you what our first XI was.

 

 

Perhaps but he was excellent against Bournemouth where even Howe suggested our rotation policy helped us. If Yoshida was at fault for equaliser Virgil was at fault for their winner which hardly suggests if we'd a less fresh fonte in he would have been anymore effective.

Surely the fact that many people can't identify a clear first xi is evidence more of the fact we're looking like we have got a lot of depth but a lack of exceptional players.

[Charlie Wayman]

Some people on here seem to hold a somewhat simplistic view on player fitness, and how much energy it takes to play a professional football game. “Can’t these millionaires run around for more than 90 minutes a week? Isn’t that what they’re paid for? Look at so and so in that other sport!”

 

The weekly physical activity of our players obviously doesn’t start at the beginning of a game and end at the final whistle. Don’t forget that teams train a few hours almost every day of the week, often at high intensity. Recovery time is a very important factor in any sport at any level.

 

Injuries due to overload are very common, and even though teams sometimes take that risk with certain key players, it’s a good idea if it can be avoided. How to find that perfect balance? When does rotation stop being a good idea and start becoming a negative influence?

 

Puel seems to take this to the extreme sometimes, which looks like a fantastic idea when the results are great and looks like a bad idea when the results disappoint. We also all want to see our young ones getting chances, and we also all want to see our best team every time.

 

Does anyone know what a typical week for our first team players actually looks like from day to day?

 

Your point being?

[Whitey Grandad]

Perhaps but he was excellent against Bournemouth where even Howe suggested our rotation policy helped us. If Yoshida was at fault for equaliser Virgil was at fault for their winner which hardly suggests if we'd a less fresh fonte in he would have been anymore effective.

Surely the fact that many people can't identify a clear first xi is evidence more of the fact we're looking like we have got a lot of depth but a lack of exceptional players.

 

Bournemouth was exceptional in every sense of the word.

 

I would consider Yoshida's error much more basic than Virgil's. There was a gap between him and Virgil that Phillips only had to turn into and then plant a low shot from well inside our penalty area. Phillips should have been driven out wide and never been allowed to cut back inside. Robson-Kanu's shot was something special and on a different level entirely.

 

Like many others you're talking about 'exceptional players' but we have a squad full of internationals. What we don't have is a settled team be it first or second XI.

[trousers]

You either rest your players and make the changes or you don't, yet him (Virgil) and Romeu are basically playing every game they can, Claude can't have it both ways.

 

These kinda things are never as black and white as that. All humans are different and all sorts of factors come into play when deciding the best balance for the team as a whole.

 

It may well be that VvD and Romeu have a metabolism that means their bodies don't need as much recovery time between games as other players.

 

Or it may just be that Puel's rotation philosophy requires a stable defensive spine (i.e. Forster, VvD and Romeu) which others then rotate around. The thinking being that the overall rotation of the rest of the team is enough to absorb a few regulars into the mix.

 

I'm no sports scientist so can't comment one way or the other on the perceived benefits of such a hybrid selection policy.

 

For what its worth, my gut feel is that we've possibly over-baked the rotation philosophy at times but I think its a sound policy in principle.

[Pass the Dutchie]

Your point being?

 

My personal point being that recovery time is important, and that a player's schedule comprises much more than just the time played in an official match; a fact overlooked by some people (perhaps not seriously) in discussions about squad rotation. Rotation helps prevent overload injuries, but also has disadvantages. I'm just creating a place for discussion about these things.

[Pamplemousse]

Good post mate

 

Doesn't seem to matter what way you cut n slice it this season (so far) has been rubbish

 

BUT the good news is players are fresh and i for one expect a Koeman sized bounce for this half

 

COYR

 

10th place is hardly rubbish.

 

Swansea, Sunderland, Hull, that's the definition of rubbish.

 

Your final point I completely agree with. Hopefully, with a couple of decent additions this month, we will go on a good run and end the season on a high.

[simo]

Thought I'd do a check to look at the total possible mins (Europa & League) v actual v current average performance rating from Whoscored - https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/18

 

Interesting that we only have 3 players rated higher than 7 (Virg, Charlie and Sof) and Virgil is the freak of our team both in performance and outfield players endurance (He has played 1709 mins out of a possible 1800 mins so only missed 91mins!!!)

 

Some of the other players:

 

Oriol played 1632mins in total so missed 168mins

Redmond played 1582mins in total so missed 218mins

Davo has missed 5 games

Pierre has missed 10 games

Jay Rod has missed 14 games in total !!

 

It then leads me to ask if Puel is pushing the "rotation is important for rest and recovery" routine then why does Virgil hardly ever get rotated out of any Euro/PL games ?

 

You either rest your players and make the changes or you don't, yet him and Romeu are basically playing every game they can, Claude can't have it both ways.

 

There should be a hell of a pick up in the 2nd half of the season given some of the minutes a lot of our key players have rested.

 

Also for the JWP has been playing better this season "he's one of ours so have to pump up his tyres" bias, he is currently averaging 6.58 (both Europe/PL), the previous 3 seasons he averaged 6.55/6.65/6.62.

 

I know these are just "stats" but stats are the only metrics we have to use for a factually based discussion rather than "individual interpretation".

 

Be interested to know the league average of minutes played !?

[Saint-Fred]

Has Delli Alli played in pretty much every champions league game and a part in every league game for Spurs? He definately played the three games over Christmas. He also scored 6 goals in those three games. Spurs also play a much higher tempo than us and press for the best part of 90 minutes.

Despite their players being much fitter than our team (therefore working harder outside of the games themselves) and playing as many games ...lots of Spurs players have managed without the level of rotation we have had. AND they are still in touch with those two teams who aren't playing in Europe (Liverpool and Chelsea).

 

So some people may have a simplist view etc" but perhaps Its actually that some level of rotation is required but Puel has taken it to an extreme so we never actually get our strongest team on the pitch together anymore as he has decided to make 6 changes every game which perhaps is why our form has tailed off?

[Whitey Grandad]

These kinda things are never as black and white as that. All humans are different and all sorts of factors come into play when deciding the best balance for the team as a whole.

 

It may well be that VvD and Romeu have a metabolism that means their bodies don't need as much recovery time between games as other players.

 

Or it may just be that Puel's rotation philosophy requires a stable defensive spine (i.e. Forster, VvD and Romeu) which others then rotate around. The thinking being that the overall rotation of the rest of the team is enough to absorb a few regulars into the mix.

 

I'm no sports scientist so can't comment one way or the other on the perceived benefits of such a hybrid selection policy.

 

For what its worth, my gut feel is that we've possibly over-baked the rotation philosophy at times but I think its a sound policy in principle.

 

I would say that a stable defence needs to be more than just the centre half, indeed I would extend that to all the back four. The odd full back can be rotated on the odd occasion out of necessity but they then need to be regularly drilled with the first choice defence until their positioning becomes second nature. The forwards have a bit more flexibility but don't expect consistent, fluidity and excitement if the rest of the team are playing with different colleaguesa every week.

[Whitey Grandad]

Has Delli Alli played in pretty much every champions league game and a part in every league game for Spurs? He definately played the three games over Christmas. He also scored 6 goals in those three games. Spurs also play a much higher tempo than us and press for the best part of 90 minutes.

Despite their players being much fitter than our team (therefore working harder outside of the games themselves) and playing as many games ...lots of Spurs players have managed without the level of rotation we have had. AND they are still in touch with those two teams who aren't playing in Europe (Liverpool and Chelsea).

 

So some people may have a simplist view etc" but perhaps Its actually that some level of rotation is required but Puel has taken it to an extreme so we never actually get our strongest team on the pitch together anymore as he has decided to make 6 changes every game which perhaps is why our form has tailed off?

 

I have come to the same conclusion.

[simo]

Rotation is obviously Les Reed's evil masterplan to get as many players in the shop window as possible!

[Greenridge]

Rotation is obviously Les Reed's evil masterplan to get as many players in the shop window as possible!

 

Joking aside, it was made very clear when Claude was appointed that he was tasked to develop (and showcase) the youth at SFC. The rotation 'strategy' gives him the perfect vehicle to do just that.

 

In saying that I completely understand our business model that relies on us either buying players with potential and selling them on or developing our youth and selling them on. This being the essence of long term sustainability.

[trousers]

I would say that a stable defence needs to be more than just the centre half, indeed I would extend that to all the back four. The odd full back can be rotated on the odd occasion out of necessity but they then need to be regularly drilled with the first choice defence until their positioning becomes second nature.

 

Fair point. I'm just suggesting that having 3 mainstays in defence is probably better than having none at all. Neither is ideal of course but perhaps we don't live in an ideal world, as the song goes...

[DuncanRG]

Reed very convincing on this issue in his interview. Interesting that he compares us now with Pochettino's early days at Spurs, where he had to clear out deadwood and results weren't going his way. And doubly interesting that he says Puel isn't getting much time to coach, because all the sessions have to be recovery and fitness prep.

[Mosin]

Thought I'd do a check to look at the total possible mins (Europa & League) v actual v current average performance rating from Whoscored - https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/18

 

Interesting that we only have 3 players rated higher than 7 (Virg, Charlie and Sof) and Virgil is the freak of our team both in performance and outfield players endurance (He has played 1709 mins out of a possible 1800 mins so only missed 91mins!!!)

 

Some of the other players:

 

Oriol played 1632mins in total so missed 168mins

Redmond played 1582mins in total so missed 218mins

Davo has missed 5 games

Pierre has missed 10 games

Jay Rod has missed 14 games in total !!

 

It then leads me to ask if Puel is pushing the "rotation is important for rest and recovery" routine then why does Virgil hardly ever get rotated out of any Euro/PL games ?

 

You either rest your players and make the changes or you don't, yet him and Romeu are basically playing every game they can, Claude can't have it both ways.

 

There should be a hell of a pick up in the 2nd half of the season given some of the minutes a lot of our key players have rested.

 

Also for the JWP has been playing better this season "he's one of ours so have to pump up his tyres" bias, he is currently averaging 6.58 (both Europe/PL), the previous 3 seasons he averaged 6.55/6.65/6.62.

 

I know these are just "stats" but stats are the only metrics we have to use for a factually based discussion rather than "individual interpretation".

 

Good post, but a bit unfair on a bit time player, No player is going to find any form when he is not in a settled side, its important for JWP to play consistantly like it is for most players, and this is why we have no form, players need to create an understanding with each other, u cant just stick random players together and expect them to hit form, Apart from a few players we have been poor, even Davis is not at his normal level of consistancy we have seen since he has been here, only players starting regular are playing well ( But forster but i think thats more down to the defence being unsettled ).

[Pamplemousse]

Reed very convincing on this issue in his interview. Interesting that he compares us now with Pochettino's early days at Spurs, where he had to clear out deadwood and results weren't going his way. And doubly interesting that he says Puel isn't getting much time to coach, because all the sessions have to be recovery and fitness prep.

 

I'm glad the club is focused on the long term goals. Too many in football, and too many on this forum, are focused on the here and now without a thought about the future.

[AK]

Reed very convincing on this issue in his interview. Interesting that he compares us now with Pochettino's early days at Spurs, where he had to clear out deadwood and results weren't going his way. And doubly interesting that he says Puel isn't getting much time to coach, because all the sessions have to be recovery and fitness prep.

 

I'm not convinced about Puel's I but I think the lack of coaching time is a valid point. Not sure what point Les was making in the Poch comparison, firstly does he mean we have a load of deadwood to clear out? Secondly they've had roughly the same number of games and it doesn't appear they rotate as much as us. Also we don't play anywhere near the intensity of Spurs. So I thought it was a bit strange to highlight them.

[DuncanRG]

I'm not convinced about Puel's I but I think the lack of coaching time is a valid point. Not sure what point Les was making in the Poch comparison, firstly does he mean we have a load of deadwood to clear out? Secondly they've had roughly the same number of games and it doesn't appear they rotate as much as us. Also we don't play anywhere near the intensity of Spurs. So I thought it was a bit strange to highlight them.

 

The point was that Spurs today are a product of two and a bit years with Pochettino, whereas we're at the beginning with Puel. Not sure how far that comparison stretches, given Pochettino had a major transformation job to do whereas Puel inherited a very good squad, but Reed hinted at youth policy by pointing out Kane was out on loan when Poch arrived. Perhaps the club sees Project Puel as a transformation of the sort Pochettino's made at Spurs, but that's not obvious from the outside.

 

The reference to deadwood was mine (highlighting the scale of Pochettino's challenge on arrival) not Reed's.

[VectisSaint]

Reed very convincing on this issue in his interview. Interesting that he compares us now with Pochettino's early days at Spurs, where he had to clear out deadwood and results weren't going his way. And doubly interesting that he says Puel isn't getting much time to coach, because all the sessions have to be recovery and fitness prep.

Didn't Les look at the fixtures before appointing Puel? Apart from possibly 2 extra LC games (if we had lost in the 3rd round) there have been no unexpected games this season.If Les expected Puel to have to do a lot of coaching for his new method then he was a bit of a **** appointing him knowing the fixture congestion we have. This "no time for coaching" stuff is just a lame excuse for our poor play and results.