Saints recruitment success: a myth

[stevy777_x]

Getting fed of articles saying are recruitment policy is excellent and that we will always replace our star players:

 

Yes we have had relative success in the transfer market over the last 3-4 years but on paper we have one of the most expensive squads in Europe (top 25 anyway).

When i look around Europe, I see teams that have made much better use of their money in assembling squads of technical fast and powerful players (Monaco, Seville, Atletico come to my mind).

 

and looking at that game yesterday and most games this season, I realize that when teams don t give us space we are a bog standard team, with no ideas and play a very predictable game. There is a lack was a lack of movement, no runs between the lines and when we do do it on the rare occasion, either our pass is crap either we have no pace upfront to make it count.

[EBS1980]

I think we have failed this year in that we lost so much from Pelle and Mane and they simply haven't been replaced to a good enough level, Boufal might be ok once settled in but we really lack the Pelle replacement or a danger from the bench. Too much is being asked from Austin and a very out of form Long.

 

Redmond was brought in to suit Koeman's style of play and now Puel doesn't play that way we are trying to make him something he's not (a striker).

[Saint Garrett]

Gone backwards for sure. Hopefully not so far that we're in the mix for relegation. Pelle was always a short term replacement for Lambert, who was coming to the end of his career anyway, Tadic was a good replacement for Lallana and Mane was a great replacement for J-Rod while injured.

 

We carried on playing the same way, with a very slight change. This season we've taken our goals away, and also a rock in midfield, and completely changed the system. Doesn't make it easy for new players to have to settle into a squad with players who are also learning something new. It was always going to be a struggle when we knew Puel was going to make big changes.

[Heisenberg]

Les Reed is a glorified and self promoted wheeler dealer (on par with Redknapp)

 

He gets credit for buying and selling, while other chairman buy talent and desperately keep it (get no credit)

 

Yes he’s made a few quid selling our assets - Mane, Clyne, Morgan, Wanyama, Lallana, Lovren, Pelle and he’s bagged the club a few quid (and himself no doubt) some nice silver. But the £60-70m profit on these you’ve then lost £50-60m on duds like Juanmi, Ramirez, Osvaldo, Mayuka, Forren, Gardos, Clasie, Cuco, Gazzaniga, Pied and Redmond (Possibly now Hojberg/Boufal too)

[DuncanRG]

Getting fed of articles saying are recruitment policy is excellent and that we will always replace our star players:

 

Yes we have had relative success in the transfer market over the last 3-4 years but on paper we have one of the most expensive squads in Europe (top 25 anyway).

 

So not a myth, then. No one said good recruitment had to be cheap, especially not in the inflated English market.

 

We rebuilt an entire team in one summer and improved on the previous year's league finish, then improved on it again. That's not just good recruitment, it's quite exceptional. Don't let a bad result (and what might prove to be a poor transfer window) cloud your judgement of our business over the last few years.

 

Personally, I've not read any articles saying we'll always replace our star players - in fact, most journalists predict that at some stage we'll fail to replace them properly.

[SuperSAINT]

What we do every season is a minor miracle.

 

Look at Leicester: Lose just one of their best players and they go from 1st to 16th.

[Pass the Dutchie]

We have a few (admittedly: really) bad games and suddenly not only do all the players suck, does the manager suck, does Les Reed suck, and don't our investors care... no, also our whole reputation is based on a lie.

[DuncanRG]

What we do every season is a minor miracle.

 

Look at Leicester: Lose just one of their best players and they go from 1st to 16th.

 

They do miss Kante, but their bigger problems this year are psychological. Their title win proved that looking at football exclusively through names in the squad and transfers only gets you so far.

[CB Fry]

Les Reed is a glorified and self promoted wheeler dealer (on par with Redknapp)

 

He gets credit for buying and selling, while other chairman buy talent and desperately keep it (get no credit)

 

Yes he’s made a few quid selling our assets - Mane, Clyne, Morgan, Wanyama, Lallana, Lovren, Pelle and he’s bagged the club a few quid (and himself no doubt) some nice silver. But the £60-70m profit on these you’ve then lost £50-60m on duds like Juanmi, Ramirez, Osvaldo, Mayuka, Forren, Gardos, Clasie, Cuco, Gazzaniga, Pied and Redmond (Possibly now Hojberg/Boufal too)

 

 

0.5/10. You're better than obvious efforts like this. You've let your craft down, you've let the forum down, but most of all you've let yourself down.

[Raging Bull]

Les Reed is a glorified and self promoted wheeler dealer (on par with Redknapp)

 

He gets credit for buying and selling, while other chairman buy talent and desperately keep it (get no credit)

 

Yes he’s made a few quid selling our assets - Mane, Clyne, Morgan, Wanyama, Lallana, Lovren, Pelle and he’s bagged the club a few quid (and himself no doubt) some nice silver. But the £60-70m profit on these you’ve then lost £50-60m on duds like Juanmi, Ramirez, Osvaldo, Mayuka, Forren, Gardos, Clasie, Cuco, Gazzaniga, Pied and Redmond (Possibly now Hojberg/Boufal too)

 

Poetry in motion, bravo.

[Chez]

I see teams that have made much better use of their money in assembling squads of technical fast and powerful players (Monaco, Seville, Atletico come to my mind).

hard to compare with other clubs abroad as Premiership clubs are charged a premium for signings, although you do have a point, especially as many of our signings are from overseas rather than other English teams.

[The9]

What we do every season is a minor miracle.

 

Look at Leicester: Lose just one of their best players and they go from 1st to 16th.

 

Leicester's biggest loss this season is the ridiculous levels of luck they had all season long last time out. They were never likely to have the same freak avoidance of injury and suspensions like they had last season, along with most of the top teams going through weird and uncharacteristic losses of form all at the same time.

 

Kante is a significant loss, but in a normal season they'd have come 6th or 7th at best last year and that's only about a 7 or 8 point drop off to where they are at this stage of the season, which can easily be explained away by a few lucky bounces or injuries to starters here and there - plus they're playing Champions League games.

 

As for failure of recruitment and minor miracle, no, we're doing just fine overall and anyone expecting there not to be a drop off in league position when we have 6 extra midweek games (plus the latter stages of the League Cup) is insane.

[shurlock]

Leicester's biggest loss this season is the ridiculous levels of luck they had all season long last time out. They were never likely to have the same freak avoidance of injury and suspensions like they had last season, along with most of the top teams going through weird and uncharacteristic losses of form all at the same time.

 

Kante is a significant loss, but in a normal season they'd have come 6th or 7th at best last year and that's only about a 7 or 8 point drop off to where they are at this stage of the season, which can easily be explained away by a few lucky bounces or injuries to starters here and there.

 

As for failure of recruitment and minor miracle, no, we're doing just fine overall and anyone expecting there not to be a drop off in league position when we have 6 extra midweek games (plus the latter stages of the League Cup) is insane.

 

You really do get fixated by certain ideas and principles and have neither the flexibility or modesty to see beyond your earnest dogmatism. If you think luck is the main explanation of Leicester's success over a 38 game season, you really are deluded.

[stevy777_x]

So not a myth, then. No one said good recruitment had to be cheap, especially not in the inflated English market.

 

We rebuilt an entire team in one summer and improved on the previous year's league finish, then improved on it again. That's not just good recruitment, it's quite exceptional. Don't let a bad result (and what might prove to be a poor transfer window) cloud your judgement of our business over the last few years.

 

Personally, I've not read any articles saying we'll always replace our star players - in fact, most journalists predict that at some stage we'll fail to replace them properly.

 

My point basically is : with all the money we have received from sales over the last 2 years, we could have done a much better job in bringing in replacements.

When we sold shaw lallana lambert chambers lovren with Bertrand , we replaced them fantastically well with Mane Pelle Tadic Toby Forster This was our golden year.

The last 2 years however has been the complete opposite (with the exception of Romeu and Virgil) and we have spent so much money on dull ordinary players and hearing stories that we replace them well is a total myth. The writing was already on the wall last season but thx to Mane Pelle Tadic we overachieved and beat big big teams in the run in.

Now that 2 of them are gone, we are finding it very difficult offensively and can t create anything.

We are in the top 25 most expensive squads in Europe but we are not a top 25 team that is for sure.

[petts]

We have some serious potential now and most of them will be here next season. For me this season is a bit of a testing ground/see if we can win a cup. Vvd might go in the summer and maybe cedric, but the rest will be here if we want them. Looking good for saints

 

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

[Gunnery]

Anther example of fûckwittery....

[Monk]

Les Reed is a glorified and self promoted wheeler dealer (on par with Redknapp)

 

He gets credit for buying and selling, while other chairman buy talent and desperately keep it (get no credit)

 

Yes he’s made a few quid selling our assets - Mane, Clyne, Morgan, Wanyama, Lallana, Lovren, Pelle and he’s bagged the club a few quid (and himself no doubt) some nice silver. But the £60-70m profit on these you’ve then lost £50-60m on duds like Juanmi, Ramirez, Osvaldo, Mayuka, Forren, Gardos, Clasie, Cuco, Gazzaniga, Pied and Redmond (Possibly now Hojberg/Boufal too)

 

Head

On

Hit

Nail

The

[Delboy Dave]

Les Reed is a glorified and self promoted wheeler dealer (on par with Redknapp)

 

He gets credit for buying and selling, while other chairman buy talent and desperately keep it (get no credit)

 

Yes he’s made a few quid selling our assets - Mane, Clyne, Morgan, Wanyama, Lallana, Lovren, Pelle and he’s bagged the club a few quid (and himself no doubt) some nice silver. But the £60-70m profit on these you’ve then lost £50-60m on duds like Juanmi, Ramirez, Osvaldo, Mayuka, Forren, Gardos, Clasie, Cuco, Gazzaniga, Pied and Redmond (Possibly now Hojberg/Boufal too)

I can't see anything wrong with this post and why people are saying it's a wind up it's amazing.

 

The players we sell are largely excellent.

 

And the players we buy are at best 50/50

[Mr Biscuits]

Have to disagree, our recruitment is excellent at discovering players with potential that the club then nurtures and develops, producing an excellent player.

 

The problem is that we don't keep them.

 

Just look at any 'what if' team you care to think of. i get the whole 'we can't afford the wages' argument, to me that is just a problem to be challenged and resolved. There's enough money washing around to make it work.

[Dalek2003]

I can't see anything wrong with this post and why people are saying it's a wind up it's amazing.

 

The players we sell are largely excellent.

 

And the players we buy are at best 50/50

 

The reason is that some self righteous posters always disagree with the poster rather than the post.

[Fan The Flames]

I can't see anything wrong with this post and why people are saying it's a wind up it's amazing.

 

The players we sell are largely excellent.

 

And the players we buy are at best 50/50

 

There is a big flaw in your logic, that statement can only be true for a short period, then we will have a team of average players that other teams won't want to buy. Will you be happy then.

[Saint Billy]

We are living on past glories as far as recruitment is concerned.

 

With full control of transfers and a manager willing to have his tummy tickled, Reed and the black box have managed to feck things up on a grand scale. Our biggest success this season is Mclean so thank god our youth policy still seems to be working as he stands head and shoulders above anything we have brought in this year.

[Redslo]

Have to disagree, our recruitment is excellent at discovering players with potential that the club then nurtures and develops, producing an excellent player.

 

The problem is that we don't keep them.

 

Just look at any 'what if' team you care to think of. i get the whole 'we can't afford the wages' argument, to me that is just a problem to be challenged and resolved. There's enough money washing around to make it work.

 

Could you point out where that money is please? I have looked at the club's financials and I don't see it so I must be missing something.

[Gunnery]

I can't see anything wrong with this post and why people are saying it's a wind up it's amazing.

 

The players we sell are largely excellent.

 

And the players we buy are at best 50/50

So were the players we sell average when we bought them? I'm confused...

[Gunnery]

We are living on past glories as far as recruitment is concerned.

 

With full control of transfers and a manager willing to have his tummy tickled, Reed and the black box have managed to feck things up on a grand scale. Our biggest success this season is Mclean so thank god our youth policy still seems to be working as he stands head and shoulders above anything we have brought in this year.

Who's McLean? Is he any good?

[stevy777_x]

So were the players we sell average when we bought them? I'm confused...

 

We have been buying more players than selling some. We may have more depth but selling your best players is going to ultimatly weaken your first eleven.

Last year we lost morgan clyne and toby, we got romeu van dijk clasie cedric Martina and juanmi. That basically equates to selling excellent and buying 50/50

 

This year we lost mane wanyama and juanmi and brought in Bouffal hojbjerg redmond Austin, Pied, McCarthy.

Here again selling excellently and buying 50/50 although jury is still out on certain players.

 

So we end up selling our best players and trying to buy replacements with potential who may or may not fulfil their potential.

If they do fulfill their potential we sell them and keep the average ones

 

 

Soon, we ll end up with an average first eleven and an average bench whereas before our first eleven was very strong, capable of top 8 finishes and challenging the big boys.

If we continue with this tactic and level of recruitment we are destined for regular lower mid table finishes.

 

 

That is maybe fine for certain people but that does not go down well with me with the amount of money we have been able to spend on replacements.

[Gunnery]

What I think people fail to grasp is that the players we sell aren't just OUR best players, in many cases they go on to be amongst the best players of the top clubs who bought them, so how the hell are we supposed to hang onto that type of player? If we didn't sign these types of players in the first place we'd be in the shît....it's been said a million times on here, if nobody is interested in our players then we are doing something wrong.

[Matthew Le God]

I think we have failed this year in that we lost so much from Pelle and Mane and they simply haven't been replaced to a good enough level, Boufal might be ok once settled in but we really lack the Pelle replacement

 

Pelle was replaced by our current top scorer Charlie Austin, when are people going to realise this? Pelle was being linked with a move to China in January 2016, Saints pre-empted his move in the summer by signing Austin early. The club have told friendly journalists that this was the thought process. Just because both were at the club at the same time briefly doesn't mean one can't be the replacement for the other. Charlie Austin is a more than capable Pelle replacement.

[adrian lord]

What I think people fail to grasp is that the players we sell aren't just OUR best players, in many cases they go on to be amongst the best players of the top clubs who bought them, so how the hell are we supposed to hang onto that type of player? If we didn't sign these types of players in the first place we'd be in the shît....it's been said a million times on here, if nobody is interested in our players then we are doing something wrong.

 

at this rate the only player anyone will be interested in from the current crop is VVD. Normally it is 4 or 5 in the frame to go.

[eurosaint]

Les Reed is a glorified and self promoted wheeler dealer (on par with Redknapp)

 

He gets credit for buying and selling, while other chairman buy talent and desperately keep it (get no credit)

 

Yes he’s made a few quid selling our assets - Mane, Clyne, Morgan, Wanyama, Lallana, Lovren, Pelle and he’s bagged the club a few quid (and himself no doubt) some nice silver. But the £60-70m profit on these you’ve then lost £50-60m on duds like Juanmi, Ramirez, Osvaldo, Mayuka, Forren, Gardos, Clasie, Cuco, Gazzaniga, Pied and Redmond (Possibly now Hojberg/Boufal too)

Another way of putting it :

Les Reed is widely recognised by the football media as a master in the transfer business !

He has signed players like Mane, Tadic, Fonte, Bertrand, Pelle, Wanyama, Lovren, Van Dyck, Forster, Cedric, Lambert and Alderweireld.

He has expanded and improved the infrastructure of one the finest footballing academies in the country and is well respected by his peers !

I'm struggling to think of a director of football with a better track record in recent years !

[shurlock]

Another way of putting it :

Les Reed is widely recognised by the football media as a master in the transfer business !

He has signed players like Mane, Tadic, Fonte, Bertrand, Pelle, Wanyama, Lovren, Van Dyck, Forster, Cedric, Lambert and Alderweireld.

He has expanded and improved the infrastructure of one the finest footballing academies in the country and is well respected by his peers !

I'm struggling to think of a director of football with a better track record in recent years !

 

Cedric

 

He's been OK; but he's hardly been a resounding success. The dopey talk that he was an upgrade on Clyne now seems endearing.

 

The best propagandists appreciate that less is more.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Cedric is getting better & better. Now he's got used to the physicality of the English game he could turn out to be just as good as Clyne

[cellone]

Another way of putting it :

Les Reed is widely recognised by the football media as a master in the transfer business !

He has signed players like Mane, Tadic, Fonte, Bertrand, Pelle, Wanyama, Lovren, Van Dyck, Forster, Cedric, Lambert and Alderweireld.

He has expanded and improved the infrastructure of one the finest footballing academies in the country and is well respected by his peers !

I'm struggling to think of a director of football with a better track record in recent years !

Single handily running the club. Surprised we can pay him enough to keep him. There are probably small countries trying to convince him to run them.

[shurlock]

Cedric is getting better & better. Now he's got used to the physicality of the English game he could turn out to be just as good as Clyne

 

After the big fanfare over the summer, he came back and started the season horribly (which is understandable enough after missing the preaseason). He's got better but he hasn't particularly stood out, even among some very average team performances and a system that is very friendly to fullbacks. He's nowhere near Clyne.

Edited 10 December, 2016 by shurlock

[View From The Top]

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

It's a bit misleading because we've had to spend big just to replace the players that have left. And that spend has been recent. If Arsenal have to replace Sanchez & Ozil next season they'll have to spend big but because prices have gone up that bigger spend won't mean better players than those 2.Surely the figure we should be looking at is net spend, or a better measure is wage bill

Edited 10 December, 2016 by Lord Duckhunter

[Andy Durman]

I have to shake my head at some of the comments on this forum.

 

Instant food, instant coffee, everything NOW!!

 

We buy good players and improve them.

 

Please have patience and allow players and coaches to the time to develop.

[Dangermouth]

It's a bit misleading because we've had to spend big just to replace the players that have left. And that spend has been recent. If Arsenal have to replace Sanchez & Ozil next season they'll have to spend big but because prices have gone up that bigger spend won't mean better players than those 2.Surely the figure we should be looking at is net spend, or a better measure is wage bill

 

Actually it's probably more revealing than you think. Even though it lacks a great deal of information about the money spent. It must be over a certain time period as MU haven't spent that amount this year or even this year and last year combined and the * indicates this. Of those teams mentioned most, bar Everton, are in a good position in the league and expected to do well. Even both of the Manchester teams that are currently not performing as hoped for/expected. The next twenty would be revealing provided it contained a larger number of PL teams as I suspect it would. Our first team squad has been assembled over quite a period of time e.g. Fonte has been there a long while and contains a number of players who presumably cost £nil (e.g. McQueen). Of the expensive players (circa £10m or more) we have we can look at Hojbjerg, Boufal, Tadic, VVD, Bertrand, Redmond, which together comprise the greatest part of that sum. The figures do seem, by and large, to reflect the other measures you've indicated are better. Regardless, we've spent a lot. Currently it seems we have yet to receive sufficient bang for our buck.

[Graffito]

Getting fed of articles saying are recruitment policy is excellent and that we will always replace our star players:

 

Yes we have had relative success in the transfer market over the last 3-4 years but on paper we have one of the most expensive squads in Europe (top 25 anyway).

When i look around Europe, I see teams that have made much better use of their money in assembling squads of technical fast and powerful players (Monaco, Seville, Atletico come to my mind).

 

and looking at that game yesterday and most games this season, I realize that when teams don t give us space we are a bog standard team, with no ideas and play a very predictable game. There is a lack was a lack of movement, no runs between the lines and when we do do it on the rare occasion, either our pass is crap either we have no pace upfront to make it count.

 

 

 

 

 

There is nothing unique about Saints recruitment. I'm reading "The Nowhere Men - The Unkown Story of Football's True Talent Spotters". Here's a quote:

 

" He (James Smith, The Dugouts' Head of Recruitment) sees Borussia Dortmund as a more realistic role model: ‘They nearly went bust about five or six years ago because they overstretched. They’ve rebuilt with a team full of young players, all with good resale values. They recruited really cleverly, from Poland, Japan, South America, and won the Bundesliga. The next step involved the Champions League, which gave them the money to invest in slightly more expensive players. It’s like a virtuous circle as long as you can keep it going. It’s a great example of how to run a football club. They also produce top, top players from their academy. That leads to self-sufficiency. You have to accept that every year you might have to sell one, and that will fund a process of evolution. So you sell a player for fifteen and you buy three for five million each. The hope is one of those will be sold for fifteen in a year or two, and so it goes on. Everton can operate a bit like that in the Premier League because it is acknowledged and accepted that we haven’t got much money."

 

Sounds familiar. So not unique but not a myth either. It's about recruitment being embedded in an organization which has a clear strategy and the ability to implement it over time. See this where Saints come out on top (Everton second).

 

http://www.cityam.com/240359/forget-leicester-city-southampton-and-everton-are-a-better-bet-for-future-premier-league-success-according-to-new-management-index

 

"Integration of core football values. Club managed as a complete system. Learning is everything. Strategic coherence. Clear and effective decision making".

 

Get past the management speak and you may recognize a club that is operating along the right lines and giving itself the best chance of succeeding over time. Incidentally, there is another article linked to the above which places Saints at the top of those clubs producing the worlds highest paid players.

[Heisenberg]

I have to shake my head at some of the comments on this forum.

 

Instant food, instant coffee, everything NOW!!

 

We buy good players and improve them.

 

Please have patience and allow players and coaches to the time to develop.

 

10 months on..... Should we still be waiting?

[Katalinic]

10 months on..... Should we still be waiting?

 

Instant trolling.

[itchen]

There will be some brilliant years and some not so good. It's all part and parcel of supporting a football club. For the biggest clubs, perhaps, the not-so-good years will generally be better than ours (although over the past few years Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal have had disappointing seasons).

 

At the moment we're going through one of our not-so-good stages. Of course I wish that this were not so and am happy to voice my opinions about how things could be better. But I'm also confident that those in charge of the club also want to improve our performance and will do so. It is, after all, their job.

 

Last season was poor by our recent standards but brilliant when you compare it to when we used to flirt with relegation every season. Of course, we all want to see us continually improving. But so do the supporters and owners of every other club. I think we are generally on the right track and am not too concerned about the occasional setbacks in our progress. They will happen and we will overcome them.

 

I do wish we could score a goal or two though.

[Nordic Saint]

Weren't there some figures published which showed we'd spent more on players than we'd received in transfer fees for those we've sold over the last few years, which would explain why the club is in debt and borrowing money from a bank again? Ultimately, the revolving door policy does not appear to be paying off, either on or off the pitch. Yes, we are still in the top flight but that's no more than you'd expect for a club which gets the 12th biggest gates in the league.

[hutch]

which would explain why the club is in debt and borrowing money from a bank again?

Nicely done. Have you been taking lessons, or just practising on your own?

[trousers]

Textbook

[Heisenberg]

Les Reed is a glorified and self promoted wheeler dealer (on par with Redknapp)

 

He gets credit for buying and selling, while other chairman buy talent and desperately keep it (get no credit)

 

Yes he’s made a few quid selling our assets - Mane, Clyne, Morgan, Wanyama, Lallana, Lovren, Pelle and he’s bagged the club a few quid (and himself no doubt) some nice silver. But the £60-70m profit on these you’ve then lost £50-60m on duds like Juanmi, Ramirez, Osvaldo, Mayuka, Forren, Gardos, Clasie, Cuco, Gazzaniga, Pied and Redmond (Possibly now Hojberg/Boufal too)

 

Called it.

 

n

[Crab Lungs]

I reckon I could spot and identify better players than our whole scouting dept. On my own.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

I reckon I could spot and identify better players than our whole scouting dept. On my own.

 

You probably could.

 

But could you identify ones that are available, that are within budget, that fit the recruitment profile, and that we have the right relationships with their agents and club to get a deal done whilst also facing competition for the player and having to manage timescales and the dependencies the deal hinges on?

[ALWAYS_SFC]

I reckon I could spot and identify better players than our whole scouting dept. On my own.

 

Why are you not doing this for a living then?

[Cabbage_Face]

Some transfer work, some don't. This is applicable to every club in the world. Hope this Helps.

 

Look at players like James (real madrid), Shaq (Bayern), Torres (Chelsea), Shevchenko (Chelsea) etc etc etc. Even well established players don't do so well .

 

I wouldnt cry about it, bigger things to worry about in life.