Puel out

[Shroppie]

After a full season of coaching you don't hold the manager responsible for the fact our players have gotten worse to the point they can't pass to each other ?

 

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Now you're just being silly. On the whole the passing was good. Yes, of course the odd one went astray when they tried to be less predictable. No doubt if they hadn't been trying those passes you'd be moaning about safe and negative football.

 

It really is getting silly when, to support your case, you have to make up ridiculously false statements.

 

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[DT]

Here's a left-fielder for you to tear apart, Nigel Adkins was in town again last night and beaming huge smile to all and sundry from the management box. Replacing Hunter as boss of the junior sides or just an honoured guest? Surely the prodigal son is not about to make a return, older and wiser?

 

I hope not. Nice guy and all that, but shouldn't be manager of the first team now. Maybe coach/number 2?

[The9]

hahahahahahaha, I'll have some of whatever you're on mate. Top 4 of the championship the year after next maybe? You've got to beat teams in the top 6 (or bottom 3) if you want to stand a chance of getting in the top 4 buddy. Honestly, if you believe this, you are seriously in denial.

 

(This could be a sarcastic post, surely it is?!? I didn't bother to read any more after I saw the first sentence.

 

Maybe you should try reading the rest of it then?

[The9]

I don't get the Puel hate.

 

I can quite understand wanting him out, being frustrated at his tactics etc but some of the comments here and elsewhere seem to go above and beyond normal sporting dissatisfaction. I saw on our Facebook page last night someone saying they hope his car crashes on the way home like the car crash he's turned us into or something like that and I know you'll always get nobs like that but this had a load of likes on it!

 

I don't remember being this much hate when we had other managers the majority wanted out (Wotte, JP, Burley at the end). What's the man done to have so much raw animalistic hate and childish name calling thrown at him? Surely just doing a below par job at a football club doesn't warrant that sort of treatment?

 

He's French and the critics are mostly ranty nobheads, as far as I can tell. I wouldn't even say he was doing a "below par" job. We're doing exactly as well as I'd have expected given the fixture and injury problems (and the decision to give Stephens 4 months' development rather than buy a replacement), possibly a bit better.

[The9]

The high water mark was when we finished 8th (spent a lot of time in 9th) not when we finished 7th and then 6th? Last season was a slide into boringness? Really?

 

The utter desperation of some people to engineer a false narrative continues to astound me.

 

Our ambition hasn't actually changed - it was the same under Poch as Koeman as now. It hasn't changed and it won't change (pending new owner, still I would be doubtful).

 

The idea that under Poch we had a one way ticket to guaranteed progress forever was, and is, total garbage. A club our size is going to finish 9th or 10th or 14th from time to time. We don't want to, but we will. Leicester finished fourteenth two seasons ago.

 

Puel may have turned out to be a dud appointment but guess what, a club our size might make a dud appointment now and then too.

 

The ambition remains - be the best of the rest and try and capitalise when the top 6 have a bad time. Try and qualify for Europe. This is not a guarantee we will achieve this, without fail forever. We won't.

 

Get over it.

 

Agree with all of this. People have ridiculous expectations and incredibly short selective memories. We've been two headers going a yard wide and hitting the post away from Europa knockouts and winning the EFL Cup this season, which would have put us back in Europe again.

 

I've got an aquaintance who's been slagging Puel since August. We won 4 games on the bounce in September, he shut up then, he shut up when we were in the EFL Cup Final and started up again when he'd forgotten about it. He hasn't, yet, put together a coherent argument why the manager is somehow to blame for this in over 8 months and can usually only manage "he's sh*t" as a critique. I don't mind discussing the tactics, or the rotation strategy, but when the counter-argument is "pick your best team all the time" without any consideration of the number of matches, performance and fitness levels or injury likelihood, it's not even worth the argument.

[Wade Garrett]

I'm slightly unnerved by his track record, as opposed to our (currently perfectly acceptable) mid table league position.

Monaco: won the title in his first year (but to put in context, they'd finished in the top 3 9 of prev 12 seasons, winning title twice), before then finishing 11th and 15th. Sacked Puel, then finished 2nd and 3rd.

Lille: took team who had finished top 5 in prev two seasons to 14th and 10th, then up to 2nd and 3rd, then back down to 10th and 7th.

Lyon: had won the title 7 years in a row, finished top 3 but no title in his three years.

Nice: took mid table team to 4th / 17th / 11th / 4th. They have finished third this season after his departure.

It feels like 5 good managerial seasons out of 16, and strangely familiar ring to this observation on his time at Lyon (who admittedly have a deluded sense of entitlement that they should have continued winning la ligue indefinitely): "Puel was handicapped by his poor communication skills and his apparent lack of enthusiasm during media events. His tactics were perceived as negative and for the first time in decades, Lyon were being associated with boring football. His relationship with players was equally poor, to the point that during the 2010–11 season, no one would speak out in defence of him when he was criticised by fans or the media. Several players, including Yoann Gourcuff,[18] hinted that their poor form could partly be explained by disagreements with the coach's tactics".

Overall, difficult to see he has done sufficiently badly to warrant the sack this season, but definite alarm bells ringing that over his proven ability to take the club forward based on his track record.

Not impossible that the club are releasing the possibility of dismissing him to weaken his leverage over transfer budget for the summer too. He's bound to be either a) acquiescent to small budget if he fears the sack or b) belligerent to point of resigning and saving the club money.

 

Very well-researched post. The club's 'due-diligence' obviously wasn't up to much.

 

Les Reed has done a lot of good things at the club, but the appointment of Puel is an absolute car crash.

[Shroppie]

ranty nobheads.

 

Thank you. The technical term that I've been looking for. I'll add it to my vocabulary.

 

But I do wonder how much of the hate comes from which of these factors:

 

1. He's French

2. He has reasonable but limited English, which makes his delivery seem even more stilted.

3. He isn't an extrovert - more quiet and considering and some interpret that as not knowing what he's doing.

4. They had higher expectations for this season

5. He isn't a known "big name"

6. Something else.

 

 

 

 

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[mrfahaji]

Very well-researched post. The club's 'due-diligence' obviously wasn't up to much.

 

Les Reed has done a lot of good things at the club, but the appointment of Puel is an absolute car crash.

 

It's not though, is it? Mistake maybe, but not car crash. Birmingham's decision to sack Rowett and replace him with Zola - that's a car crash!

[Greenridge]

Thank you. The technical term that I've been looking for. I'll add it to my vocabulary.

 

But I do wonder how much of the hate comes from which of these factors:

 

1. He's French

2. He has reasonable but limited English, which makes his delivery seem even more stilted.

3. He isn't an extrovert - more quiet and considering and some interpret that as not knowing what he's doing.

4. They had higher expectations for this season

5. He isn't a known "big name"

6. Something else.

 

 

 

 

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What has his nationality got to do with it?

[Wade Garrett]

It's not though, is it? Mistake maybe, but not car crash. Birmingham's decision to sack Rowett and replace him with Zola - that's a car crash!

 

You are certainly right about Birmingham.

 

Ok, it's a mistake by Les, a pretty bad one, as I said, he hasn't made many.

[Wade Garrett]

Thank you. The technical term that I've been looking for. I'll add it to my vocabulary.

 

But I do wonder how much of the hate comes from which of these factors:

 

1. He's French

2. He has reasonable but limited English, which makes his delivery seem even more stilted.

3. He isn't an extrovert - more quiet and considering and some interpret that as not knowing what he's doing.

4. They had higher expectations for this season

5. He isn't a known "big name"

6. Something else.

 

 

 

 

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Something else being:

 

His is tactics are poor.

His substitutions are poor.

His team selections are baffling.

He has lost the dressing room.

[Shroppie]

Something else being:

 

His is tactics are poor.

His substitutions are poor.

His team selections are baffling.

He has lost the dressing room.

Maybe.

Maybe.

Not really.

Don't believe that.

 

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[beavis17]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/claude-puel-next-southampton-manager-saints-marco-silva-carlos-carvalhal-a7730986.html

 

Apparently we've approached Silva...

Edited 11 May, 2017 by beavis17

[Batman]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/claude-puel-next-southampton-manager-saints-marco-silva-carlos-carvalhal-a7730986.html

 

this is better. have no idea if made up journo bollix but makes me happy about the club

[Lord Duckhunter]

He has lost the dressing room.

 

Pony, they wouldn't have put a defensive performance like Liverpool if that was true.

 

 

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[JRM]

Fans were not impressed with the appointment on day one and he had an up hill battle from there, not helped by drawing first two home games against Sunderland and Watford.

 

Despite getting to a cup final his name has not been sung once by the fans, zero acknowledgment of him at all really other than booing his tactics.

 

i do think we've missed a good old manager / board out campaign , used to help galvanise the fan base think quite a few people are gearing up for one. Lowe out was the last one we had.

[DT]

this is better. have no idea if made up journo bollix but makes me happy about the club

 

Porto though...

[Shroppie]

As soon as the media pick up any scent of unrest they throw names out randomly to generate a betting market. In the Mirror, it's Ranieri.

 

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[CB Fry]

no, this season has been a slide into boringness. never said that about Poch (pretty impressive, tbh, on the false narrative front). I don't see the ambition in appointing Puel. Hope the new lot can inject a bit of passion via a new manager

 

 

Try and be more clear in your posts then - you said the high water mark was the team Koeman inherited (so 2014) and since then it has been a slide into boringness. If you don't mean it, don't say it.

 

Also, if you agree that last season was a high water mark, don't be surprised when we go down a bit.

[Saint-Fred]

Thank you. The technical term that I've been looking for. I'll add it to my vocabulary.

 

But I do wonder how much of the hate comes from which of these factors:

 

1. He's French

2. He has reasonable but limited English, which makes his delivery seem even more stilted.

3. He isn't an extrovert - more quiet and considering and some interpret that as not knowing what he's doing.

4. They had higher expectations for this season

5. He isn't a known "big name"

6. Something else.

 

 

 

 

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Yes, you are right..he is our first foreign manager so it's obvious that's why people want him gone.

[DT]

Try and be more clear in your posts then - you said the high water mark was the team Koeman inherited (so 2014) and since then it has been a slide into boringness. If you don't mean it, don't say it.

 

Also, if you agree that last season was a high water mark, don't be surprised when we go down a bit.

 

High water marks can sometimes be superseded by the next high water mark. That's the thing about water marks. Arf

[Shroppie]

Yes, you are right..he is our first foreign manager so it's obvious that's why people want him gone.

I didn't say foreign. I have spoken with fans who specifically seem to dislike the French.

 

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[Greenridge]

I didn't say foreign. I have spoken with fans who specifically seem to dislike the French.

 

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Are you just making things up now?

[S-Clarke]

As soon as the media pick up any scent of unrest they throw names out randomly to generate a betting market. In the Mirror, it's Ranieri.

 

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I dunno, no smoke without fire and all that.

[stevy777_x]

I didn't say foreign. I have spoken with fans who specifically seem to dislike the French.

 

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I'm French, if that s the case they can go **** themselves

[Appy]

this is better. have no idea if made up journo bollix but makes me happy about the club

 

Jack Pitt-Brooke is pretty well informed.

[Shroppie]

Are you just making things up now?

Actually, and sadly, no.

 

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[Saint-Fred]

I'm French, if that s the case they can go **** themselves

 

Don't take it to heart, he is talking ****e..there will always be the few but 99.99% couldn't care less what nationality the manager or the players are as long as they are doing the job.

He is trying to deflect from Puel doing a poor job by insulting people and throwing totally unfounded accusations. That's pretty low IMO.

[Saint-Fred]

Thank you. The technical term that I've been looking for. I'll add it to my vocabulary.

 

But I do wonder how much of the hate comes from which of these factors:

 

2. He has reasonable but limited English, which makes his delivery seem even more stilted.

 

 

 

 

 

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Yes you are right, that's the reason....it could only have been worse if we had a manager who couldn't even speak English! Such a thing has never ever happened in the history of football!

[Shroppie]

I'm French, if that s the case they can go **** themselves

Ok, to be a bit clearer. I've heard the argument that he's a Frenchman who's only managed in the French league, which lacks the kudos of Spain, Italy or Germany, therefore he's not good enough.

 

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[CB Fry]

High water marks can sometimes be superseded by the next high water mark. That's the thing about water marks. Arf

If you were trying to make out you'd felt we'd reached a level that, while high, you fully expected us to beat the following season then my recommendation would be to use a different phrase than "high water mark". Poor choice.

 

And if you you seriously expected us to be higher this season than last then fu cking god help you.

[AK]

Ok, to be a bit clearer. I've heard the argument that he's a Frenchman who's only managed in the French league, which lacks the kudos of Spain, Italy or Germany, therefore he's not good enough.

 

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So you are now admitting that your earlier post that you had first hand experience of Saints fans disliking Puel purely because he is French ,and they were by implication rascists , is indeed a complete lie.

 

However you have met Saints fans who wondered whether he had the correct experience in a top European league to manage Saints.

 

You couldn't make it up.

[Greenridge]

Ok, to be a bit clearer. I've heard the argument that he's a Frenchman who's only managed in the French league, which lacks the kudos of Spain, Italy or Germany, therefore he's not good enough.

 

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That's not being clearer. That's completely changing your story.

 

I didn't say foreign. I have spoken with fans who specifically seem to dislike the French.

 

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If you're going to make something up at least stick with it.

[ericb]

All season i've thought he was probably going to come good at some point. Europe aside the team i've watched away from home has been very different to the one that i've watched at St Mary's, playing with a lot more freedom and looking cleverer in their movement (on the whole).

 

But i'm now of the opinion he's the wrong fit for the club, it does seem he's lost the dressing room and that his tactics aren't getting the traction he wants. I also think 17 goals at home this season is shocking no matter how you look at it, and i'm genuinely not convinced he'll improve on that next season even with a full squad as he just doesn't have his teams playing at home in the right way to do so.

 

At the end of the day it does show how spoilt we've become that we could potentially finish 8th and reach a major cup final, things that really aren't normal for us, and yet still sack our manager. But that also shows just how strong our improvement has been in recent years.

[Batman]

just watched his Boro presser....reckon he knows he is on borrowed time

[mrfahaji]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/claude-puel-next-southampton-manager-saints-marco-silva-carlos-carvalhal-a7730986.html

 

Apparently we've approached Silva...

 

Doesn't Carvalhal get Wednesday to play proper dire football?

[CB Fry]

All season i've thought he was probably going to come good at some point. Europe aside the team i've watched away from home has been very different to the one that i've watched at St Mary's, playing with a lot more freedom and looking cleverer in their movement (on the whole).

 

But i'm now of the opinion he's the wrong fit for the club, it does seem he's lost the dressing room and that his tactics aren't getting the traction he wants. I also think 17 goals at home this season is shocking no matter how you look at it, and i'm genuinely not convinced he'll improve on that next season even with a full squad as he just doesn't have his teams playing at home in the right way to do so.

 

At the end of the day it does show how spoilt we've become that we could potentially finish 8th and reach a major cup final, things that really aren't normal for us, and yet still sack our manager. But that also shows just how strong our improvement has been in recent years.

Agree, I was waiting for it to click - maybe if Gabbi didn't get crocked it would have.

 

But he did and it didnt. We can do better.

[ally_uk]

Get rid he is not the man to take us foward. Marco Silva get it done

[LeBenali]

Doesn't Carvalhal get Wednesday to play proper dire football?

 

Always assumed differently, however just looked at the table and they've scored less goals than Forest this season, who finished 21st in the league...

 

 

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[kwsaint]

My choice would be Jokanovic from Fulham if they don't go up. He has got them playing some great stuff

[Saint-Fred]

He's French and the critics are mostly ranty nobheads, as far as I can tell. I wouldn't even say he was doing a "below par" job. We're doing exactly as well as I'd have expected given the fixture and injury problems (and the decision to give Stephens 4 months' development rather than buy a replacement), possibly a bit better.

 

You have your view but resorting to calling his critics" ranty nobheads " and later arguing that you can't find someone with a reasoned argument just shows you up as an imbecile.

I am glad we are doing as well as you expected.. Personally I have a whole list of reasons why I think we are under performing and not one of them involves league position.

I don't think we have a right to anything higher than 10th however league position is not the only measure. Do you Ben go to the games?

[Roger]

He's French and the critics are mostly ranty nobheads, as far as I can tell. I wouldn't even say he was doing a "below par" job. We're doing exactly as well as I'd have expected given the fixture and injury problems (and the decision to give Stephens 4 months' development rather than buy a replacement), possibly a bit better.

 

Only one nobhead and that's you. Just completely mad.

[mrfahaji]

Always assumed differently, however just looked at the table and they've scored less goals than Forest this season, who finished 21st in the league...

 

 

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I recall last year when they were in the playoffs, the general consensus was that they were the most "methodical" team in the playoffs, defending and hitting on the break or scoring from a set piece to take 1-0 wins.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Ok, to be a bit clearer. I've heard the argument that he's a Frenchman who's only managed in the French league, which lacks the kudos of Spain, Italy or Germany, therefore he's not good enough.

 

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Would they preferred he'd managed & failed in the Spanish league like Koeman

 

 

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[kermitsaint]

Now you're just being silly. On the whole the passing was good. Yes, of course the odd one went astray when they tried to be less predictable. No doubt if they hadn't been trying those passes you'd be moaning about safe and negative football.

 

It really is getting silly when, to support your case, you have to make up ridiculously false statements.

 

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Not at all . Will rephase it .

 

Our ability to retain the ball through basic passing has gotten worse after a full season of coaching . Is the manager/coach not responsible for addressing these problems ?

 

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[kermitsaint]

I'm slightly unnerved by his track record, as opposed to our (currently perfectly acceptable) mid table league position.

Monaco: won the title in his first year (but to put in context, they'd finished in the top 3 9 of prev 12 seasons, winning title twice), before then finishing 11th and 15th. Sacked Puel, then finished 2nd and 3rd.

Lille: took team who had finished top 5 in prev two seasons to 14th and 10th, then up to 2nd and 3rd, then back down to 10th and 7th.

Lyon: had won the title 7 years in a row, finished top 3 but no title in his three years.

Nice: took mid table team to 4th / 17th / 11th / 4th. They have finished third this season after his departure.

It feels like 5 good managerial seasons out of 16, and strangely familiar ring to this observation on his time at Lyon (who admittedly have a deluded sense of entitlement that they should have continued winning la ligue indefinitely): "Puel was handicapped by his poor communication skills and his apparent lack of enthusiasm during media events. His tactics were perceived as negative and for the first time in decades, Lyon were being associated with boring football. His relationship with players was equally poor, to the point that during the 2010–11 season, no one would speak out in defence of him when he was criticised by fans or the media. Several players, including Yoann Gourcuff,[18] hinted that their poor form could partly be explained by disagreements with the coach's tactics".

Overall, difficult to see he has done sufficiently badly to warrant the sack this season, but definite alarm bells ringing that over his proven ability to take the club forward based on his track record.

Not impossible that the club are releasing the possibility of dismissing him to weaken his leverage over transfer budget for the summer too. He's bound to be either a) acquiescent to small budget if he fears the sack or b) belligerent to point of resigning and saving the club money.

I had heard this before Les Reed signed him and it seemed baffling why people were keen to get him in .

Some even seem convinced the diamond formation would lead to high speed aggressive attacking football .

 

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[Pamplemousse]

I wouldn't want Marco Silva at all.

[Saint IQ]

Agree with all of this. People have ridiculous expectations and incredibly short selective memories. We've been two headers going a yard wide and hitting the post away from Europa knockouts and winning the EFL Cup this season, which would have put us back in Europe again.

 

I've got an aquaintance who's been slagging Puel since August. We won 4 games on the bounce in September, he shut up then, he shut up when we were in the EFL Cup Final and started up again when he'd forgotten about it. He hasn't, yet, put together a coherent argument why the manager is somehow to blame for this in over 8 months and can usually only manage "he's sh*t" as a critique. I don't mind discussing the tactics, or the rotation strategy, but when the counter-argument is "pick your best team all the time" without any consideration of the number of matches, performance and fitness levels or injury likelihood, it's not even worth the argument.

 

I think he's basically been quite good away from home, **** poor at home. Especially compared to the last 2/3 seasons.

[shurlock]

Two headers and a couple of posts away

[Dusic]

If he was fired you could understand Puel being a bit ****ed off in some ways.

 

Both transfer windows have been poor which isn't his fault and have left an unbalanced squad, and his best player has missed half the season yhrough injury compounding the board level decision to sell the captain.