Admin - Watch Rupert find Investors then...

[alpine_saint]

Of course the fans maybe wrong but something drastic had to be done.

 

If the previous board had run the club successfully Rupert would not be back in charge.

 

 

Perhaps if Wilde had not taken over we would be in a better position.

 

 

It is all ifs and buts but the gloom and doom you are pedalling may not be correct.

 

Like me you probably only glean information off the internet.

 

 

More info from SFC would I think be a good idea but you probably will not beleive it

 

sorry, dont buy this.

 

Crouch and Pearson steered us clear of relegation. We would have entered the new season under them with a less demoralised and more untied fan-base which would have inevitably led to higher attendances, less financial problems and less cost-cutting required.

 

It has also been suggested that many of the cost-cutting measures implemented so far were origially proposed by Crouch and Hoos.

 

Lowe has no amibtion for the team. Look at his 50% clause on relegation for example. That is not the action of a Chairman who has taken relegation badly, is hurting, and wants the club to return to its rightful place. That is the action of a Chairman accepting fate (which he had a large hand in dealing), and planning for a long stay.

 

Tell me, would the club have been in a worse financial state then, compared to now, if we had bribed Crouch, Phillips, Niemi and Quashie to give us one more season to get back up and told approaching PL clubs at that time to f**k off ???

 

I seriously doubt it.

[saint1977]

sorry, dont buy this.

 

Crouch and Pearson steered us clear of relegation. We would have entered the new season under them with a less demoralised and more untied fan-base which would have inevitably led to higher attendances, less financial problems and less cost-cutting required.

 

It has also been suggested that many of the cost-cutting measures implemented so far were origially proposed by Crouch and Hoos.

 

Lowe has no amibtion for the team. Look at his 50% clause on relegation for example. That is not the action of a Chairman who has taken relegation badly, is hurting, and wants the club to return to its rightful place. That is the action of a Chairman accepting fate (which he had a large hand in dealing), and planning for a long stay.

 

Tell me, would the club have been in a worse financial state then, compared to now, if we had bribed Crouch, Phillips, Niemi and Quashie to give us one more season to get back up and told approaching PL clubs at that time to f**k off ???

 

I seriously doubt it.

 

Whilst I have similar views to the current board to yourself Alps, I can't agree on the 50% reduction. Many other PL clubs including Bolton when Big Sam was there have similar clauses in players' contracts. Of course the huge hikes in wages for average players have watered down the impact a bit but I don't blame Rupert for doing it.

[John B]

I simply replied to Bones's post by citing a lone example of a owner buy-back post admin that I had seen, well done to BTF on Governmental guidance she has posted. John B has posted below from a perspective that is supportive of Rupert Lowe but understands and takes into account the view of fans on the current unacceptable slide into League 1 and acknowledges the doubts over the appointment of JP which was an unneccessary risk at a dangerous time. You would do well to look at John's approach which puts his points across without getting personal. Most fans DON'T have an anti-Lowe agenda but a pro-SFC agenda and they see Lowe as an obstruction to moving forward which is different. There are a small minority of posters that are fanatical either way which you'll find at any club. Personally I would like to see ALL of the major shareholders depart but it's out of my hands and vast majority of fans on this board.

 

I am not supportive of Lowe but I am of his approach of rebuilding the football by using the Academy. Something had to be done to reduce costs

 

 

I feel he is better than Crouch or Lowe but fully understand that he is heavily disliked.

 

I would also like to have further information from the club on the view of the current situation and what relegation might bring.

 

Keeping the fans informed is very important and without it gloom and doom prevails

 

 

I also realise that whatever approach is taken to reduce cost there is a likelihood of relegation because the players may not be currently up to the required standard.

[charliemiller]

Interesting thread and when you read the opions of some you would think that administration was a absolute certainty .

 

It isnt and it shouldnt be a route that is preferred , If the club went into admin and a administrator was appointed his ONLY loyalties would be to the the creditors . Now i dont know if the shareholders would continue to be creditors or if their debt would be written off but what is a certainty is that if 46% of the shareholding is sitting in the boardroom when the adminstrator is called they would definetly have a plan laid out whereby their investment is protected and they recieve the club back for a nominal sum.

This £1 thing is rubbish as well by the way , in the event of a pre-pack even the FL debt ie... player wage defferals , costs to the adminstrator (not cheap) , HMRC debt and any protected creditors would have to be paid.It might even mean paying some of off the avivia bond to allow a transfer

Getting the club even under a pre-pack would not be cheap and it would be very very painful.

Stanley is right in a way about a ten year plan though , Keith Harris was on talk sport this week and clearly stated that when he approaches a buyer he suggests that it IS viable to make money from investment in a football club but really you should look at it as a ten year plan not a short term investment and he agreed that championship clubs are a more viable purchase than the likes of newcastle or everton who require huge sums to purchase them.

 

Failing that the winning the euromillions buying pompey for 30 million selling all the players and fratton park and throwing the keys into the harbour works for me .

[John B]

sorry, dont buy this.

 

Crouch and Pearson steered us clear of relegation. We would have entered the new season under them with a less demoralised and more untied fan-base which would have inevitably led to higher attendances, less financial problems and less cost-cutting required.

 

It has also been suggested that many of the cost-cutting measures implemented so far were origially proposed by Crouch and Hoos.

 

Lowe has no amibtion for the team. Look at his 50% clause on relegation for example. That is not the action of a Chairman who has taken relegation badly, is hurting, and wants the club to return to its rightful place. That is the action of a Chairman accepting fate (which he had a large hand in dealing), and planning for a long stay.

 

 

Tell me, would the club have been in a worse financial state then, compared to now, if we had bribed Crouch, Phillips, Niemi and Quashie to give us one more season to get back up and told approaching PL clubs at that time to f**k off ???

 

I seriously doubt it.

 

He probably like me thought your plan although positive would not work out.

 

Unfortunately getting promoted was not guarnteed and failure would have led us into where we currently are.

 

 

Also we were ill equiped to stay up even if we were promoted.

[alpine_saint]

Whilst I have similar views to the current board to yourself Alps, I can't agree on the 50% reduction. Many other PL clubs including Bolton when Big Sam was there have similar clauses in players' contracts. Of course the huge hikes in wages for average players have watered down the impact a bit but I don't blame Rupert for doing it.

 

The likes of Birmingham and West Brom tried the approach I have proposed and had a helluva lot more success at getting "re-promoted"

[John B]

The likes of Birmingham and West Brom tried the approach I have proposed and had a helluva lot more success at getting "re-promoted"

 

And relegated

[saint1977]

I am not supportive of Lowe but I am of his approach of rebuilding the football by using the Academy. Something had to be done to reduce costs

 

 

I feel he is better than Crouch or Lowe but fully understand that he is heavily disliked.

 

I would also like to have further information from the club on the view of the current situation and what relegation might bring.

 

Keeping the fans informed is very important and without it gloom and doom prevails

 

 

I also realise that whatever approach is taken to reduce cost there is a likelihood of relegation because the players may not be currently up to the required standard.

 

I don't think a lot of rational fans would disagree with much of that. Personally I'm not a fan of any of the major shareholders but it's refreshing to see a poster that wishes to have debate without getting personal or unpleasant so well done. I may not be a Rupert fan but as people will see from my comments on supporting the relegation clauses in players' contracts that my view is far from myopic. I'd love to think that Leon Crouch was a rescue option but I'm not convinced, too much seemed to gamble on Fulthorpe who doesn't seem to be able to bring a bid to anywhere near boiling point.

[Ken Tone]

I feel obliged to say clearly at the start of this post so that some might actually read it rather than just react to it in blind prejudice --- that I do not like Lowe, like Wilde even less, and whilst accepting his good motives, simply do not rate Crouch as being very clever.

 

There seem to be some fans who see administration as a minor inconvenience, worth suffering to get rid of Lowe.

 

a) Administration is much worse than that. The administrator's job is not to run a good football club; it is to run any sort of football club, with the main aim of getting money back for the creditors. He looks for a buyer but his main responsibility is to see creditors get their money. Keeping the club viable in the short term is a secondary aim in achieving that. Keeping it viable in the long term is no priority at all.

 

So unless a big investor suddenly appeared to buy us up and pay off all the debts etc ( about as likely as us getting promotion this year) the administrator would sell off anything sellable, including all our young talent, probably at a 'fire sale' bargain price, release on free transfers any other players he can persuade to go, and sell the ground too if he can get a buyer who will guarantee *for the short term only* to lease it back. No guarantee not to evict the club and use for housing in a few years time once the recession is over. Many more 'incidental' staff would lose their jobs ...stewards, kitman, ticket office, etc. Training ground would be sold. The academy would almost certainly close completely, with all facilities sold off.

 

b) There would be a fair chance that Lowe would then re-buy his way into the club for a nominal sum. Bates did it. Didn't one of the many recent owners of Bournemouth do it too? It is not uncommon for management or other insider buy-outsto follow administration in industry .

 

 

So we could go though real pain, and then still have Lowe.

 

Do not wish administration on the club if you really are a fan.

 

K.

[alpine_saint]

He probably like me thought your plan although positive would not work out.

 

Unfortunately getting promoted was not guarnteed and failure would have led us into where we currently are.

 

So the negative "prudent" approach for the first year down and also this year have yielded no clear advantages. Yes, that's my point entirely, thank you...

 

 

Also we were ill equiped to stay up even if we were promoted.

 

We would have got a helluva lot more parachute payments, especially under the new televising contract, and would have been able to buy time or try again with a more stable basis. That was Mike Wilde's plan for the 2006/2007 season too..

[saint1977]

The likes of Birmingham and West Brom tried the approach I have proposed and had a helluva lot more success at getting "re-promoted"

 

Brum have private backing from the Golds and Sullivan, not sure about WBA, I think they were the lowest payers in the PL last time around and don't seem to have pushed the boat out this time either. The only reason Palace kept Johnson et al for a season was Simon Jordan bankrolling it. Ashton was sold by Norwich. My gripe with 2005/6 was the daft focus on some admittely good ideas from SCW that derailed the first team focus on the crucial first year parachute season and increased the overhead without a significant end product - Theo and Bale were already in the system and debuting in 2005/6. Makes you realise by that fact that McGoldrick has stalled badly on his progress as he made his debut in 05/06.

[alpine_saint]

And relegated

 

And massively increased parachute payments due to the revised TV deal......

[saint1977]

I feel obliged to say clearly at the start of this post so that some might actually read it rather than just react to it in blind prejudice --- that I do not like Lowe, like Wilde even less, and whilst accepting his good motives, simply do not rate Crouch as being very clever.

 

There seem to be some fans who see administration as a minor inconvenience, worth suffering to get rid of Lowe.

 

a) Administration is much worse than that. The administrator's job is not to run a good football club; it is to run any sort of football club, with the main aim of getting money back for the creditors. He looks for a buyer but his main responsibility is to see creditors get their money. Keeping the club viable in the short term is a secondary aim in achieving that. Keeping it viable in the long term is no priority at all.

 

So unless a big investor suddenly appeared to buy us up and pay off all the debts etc ( about as likely as us getting promotion this year) the administrator would sell off anything sellable, including all our young talent, probably at a 'fire sale' bargain price, release on free transfers any other players he can persuade to go, and sell the ground too if he can get a buyer who will guarantee *for the short term only* to lease it back. No guarantee not to evict the club and use for housing in a few years time once the recession is over. Many more 'incidental' staff would lose their jobs ...stewards, kitman, ticket office, etc. Training ground would be sold. The academy would almost certainly close completely, with all facilities sold off.

 

b) There would be a fair chance that Lowe would then re-buy his way into the club for a nominal sum. Bates did it. Didn't one of the many recent owners of Bournemouth do it too? It is not uncommon for management or other insider buy-outsto follow administration in industry .

 

 

So we could go though real pain, and then still have Lowe.

 

Do not wish administration on the club if you really are a fan.

 

K.

 

A quite possible scenario. Administration is not something to wish for, whether a CVA actually happens or not. All we can do is follow the first XI at SMS and see what unfolds.

[alpine_saint]

I feel obliged to say clearly at the start of this post so that some might actually read it rather than just react to it in blind prejudice --- that I do not like Lowe, like Wilde even less, and whilst accepting his good motives, simply do not rate Crouch as being very clever.

 

There seem to be some fans who see administration as a minor inconvenience, worth suffering to get rid of Lowe.

 

a) Administration is much worse than that. The administrator's job is not to run a good football club; it is to run any sort of football club, with the main aim of getting money back for the creditors. He looks for a buyer but his main responsibility is to see creditors get their money. Keeping the club viable in the short term is a secondary aim in achieving that. Keeping it viable in the long term is no priority at all.

 

So unless a big investor suddenly appeared to buy us up and pay off all the debts etc ( about as likely as us getting promotion this year) the administrator would sell off anything sellable, including all our young talent, probably at a 'fire sale' bargain price, release on free transfers any other players he can persuade to go, and sell the ground too if he can get a buyer who will guarantee *for the short term only* to lease it back. No guarantee not to evict the club and use for housing in a few years time once the recession is over. Many more 'incidental' staff would lose their jobs ...stewards, kitman, ticket office, etc. Training ground would be sold. The academy would almost certainly close completely, with all facilities sold off.

 

b) There would be a fair chance that Lowe would then re-buy his way into the club for a nominal sum. Bates did it. Didn't one of the many recent owners of Bournemouth do it too? It is not uncommon for management or other insider buy-outsto follow administration in industry .

 

 

So we could go though real pain, and then still have Lowe.

 

Do not wish administration on the club if you really are a fan.

 

K.

 

There is a chance to get rid low Lowe through administration

 

There is zero chance to get rid of him without it.

 

A 50-50 chance is better than zero chance.....

 

I am of the opinion this club has no future under Lowe's vision.

[Saint Bones]

There is a chance to get rid low Lowe through administration

 

There is zero chance to get rid of him without it.

 

A 50-50 chance is better than zero chance.....

 

I am of the opinion this club has no future under Lowe's vision.

 

Even if this costs the club's existance ?

 

 

One man gone or the whole club gone ?

[jonah]

Except if it is true that Crouch offered £2M to repay the ODraft if Lowe and Wilde matched it' date=' why hasn't that happened then??[/quote']

 

Because firstly Crouch would have insisted on coming back on board and we all know that's not an option Lowe/Wilde would accept. Secondly I imagine neither Lowe nor Wilde would be keen to chuck £2m into a club on the brink of relegation to the 1st division. Thirdly, I don't imagine either Lowe or Wilde have £2m cash laying about - Lowe's cash probably went into WH Ireland, Wilde has previously funded his share purchases through his family trust and loans/divs from Merlion which is probably doing badly just now... he couldn't afford to buy all the shares from Wiseman and co, he only took an option on some of them.

 

The question surely should be, if Crouch has the cash to help the club why is he only offering it conditionally? He has bought a wad of shares which gives him the right to have a significant say at the club, but the fact remains he's never directly put a penny into the club (apart from sponsorships I believe?). There is still nothing to stop anyone doing that.

 

Private loans are not a good way forward IMO - there will always be too many conditions attached which could harm the club. The simplest way is to have a placing, possibly with preference shares. The BEST way as far as I'm concerned would be to issue convertible bonds - it would be a great time to issue those with base rates so low, and it gives the holder the choice of converting to shares or taking their cash back out upon maturity... everyone's a winner.

[alpine_saint]

Even if this costs the club's existance ?

 

 

One man gone or the whole club gone ?

 

Why is it a given the club has a future with him ?

 

In my opinion, that is complete bolllocks.

[The Rover]

Why do people think the club will go into administration? The biggest creditor by a country mile is Norwich Union - whilst they are getting their repayments in full and on time every year, it is unlikely they would want to call in their loan... whilst they probably have a clause which gives them the right to do so (like most mortgages/loans), if they were to do that we would immediately enter administration and they would never recoup the debt anyway - how much is a stadium worth on eBay? So it's in their interests for us to continue trading.

 

So that only leaves Barclays as being the ones able to pull the rug - and with a £6m overdraft (or whatever it is now) that is a possibility as banks start clawing back their cash.

 

Barclays and Norwich Union (who fyi are now called Aviva by the way Jonah) are not the only large institutions that are likely to be unpaid creditors if the company folds. Many companies are forced into Admninistation by HMRC for unpaid VAT and/or PAYE payments. This is of course the reason several clubs have had point deductions as they have not been able to agree CVA's with the taxman on coming out of Administration.

 

 

But as the accounts state, if Barclays withdraw their support the club will seek alternative financing whether internal or external so it probably wouldn't mean administration either... but it's clearly a risk.

 

Lowe and Wilde haven't exactly excelled at brining in new money have they? Why should it happen now in the depths of a credit crunch? (I can see that Lowe might 'find' investment after Administration so that he can buy the whole club for a song).

 

 

My own personal guess is that Barclays have advised the club that they will be withdrawing the overdraft facility year ending 2009. Of course the sensible thing to do is to take the club out of such a precarious position - ie. pay back the Barclays debt asap and return the club to financial stability. And that's what we're doing. Common sense really isn't it?

 

So according to you we're losing money month by month and still paying off the overdraft . That would be a pretty amazing trick if it could be done.

 

I really can't imagine why UP doubts your business acumen jonah. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Saint Bones]

Why is it a given the club has a future with him ?

 

In my opinion, that is complete bolllocks.

 

It's not - But it's more of a certainty that the club will cease to exist if we go into administration.

[alpine_saint]

The question surely should be, if Crouch has the cash to help the club why is he only offering it conditionally? He has bought a wad of shares which gives him the right to have a significant say at the club, but the fact remains he's never directly put a penny into the club (apart from sponsorships I believe?). There is still nothing to stop anyone doing that.

 

 

Wow, this is absolutely hillarious.

 

And how much have Lowe and Wilde put in ?

 

At least Crouch rescued the Ted Bates Statue debacle with his own money.

[alpine_saint]

It's not - But it's more of a certainty that the club will cease to exist if we go into administration.

 

And under Lowe we are 100% certain to avoid administration, arent we ?

[Saint Bones]

And under Lowe we are 100% certain to avoid administration, arent we ?

 

 

Of course not. But the club exists at the moment.

 

Why do you think that if administration happens all will be rosey ?

[John B]

And under Lowe we are 100% certain to avoid administration, arent we ?

 

We dont know do we.

 

 

I think getting rid of Lowe Wilde Crouch etc is for another day

[alpine_saint]

We dont know do we.

 

 

I think getting rid of Lowe Wilde Crouch etc is for another day

 

Fine. I suggest it may be another day the club does not survive to see.

[Guided Missile]

So according to you we're losing money month by month and still paying off the overdraft . That would be a pretty amazing trick if it could be done.

 

I really can't imagine why UP doubts your business acumen jonah. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just to jump in here, before I get back to real work, the assumption that if you lose money month by month, you aren't in a position to reduce an overdraft, is total ******. It totally ignores capital losses and depreciation that, amongst other things, may contribute towards those losses.

 

The only thing that Dave Jones and Rupert should be worrying about is the amount of cash being generated by the business, which can be used to reduce the overdraft.

 

One final question to ask UP is why he earns (IMHO) a shedload less than Jonah, if he is a financial genius. Maybe he's taken an oath of poverty....

 

Reminds me of the old saying: "Those that can, do, those that can't, teach..."

[saint1977]

Because firstly Crouch would have insisted on coming back on board and we all know that's not an option Lowe/Wilde would accept. Secondly I imagine neither Lowe nor Wilde would be keen to chuck £2m into a club on the brink of relegation to the 1st division. Thirdly, I don't imagine either Lowe or Wilde have £2m cash laying about - Lowe's cash probably went into WH Ireland, Wilde has previously funded his share purchases through his family trust and loans/divs from Merlion which is probably doing badly just now... he couldn't afford to buy all the shares from Wiseman and co, he only took an option on some of them.

 

The question surely should be, if Crouch has the cash to help the club why is he only offering it conditionally? He has bought a wad of shares which gives him the right to have a significant say at the club, but the fact remains he's never directly put a penny into the club (apart from sponsorships I believe?). There is still nothing to stop anyone doing that.

 

Private loans are not a good way forward IMO - there will always be too many conditions attached which could harm the club. The simplest way is to have a placing, possibly with preference shares. The BEST way as far as I'm concerned would be to issue convertible bonds - it would be a great time to issue those with base rates so low, and it gives the holder the choice of converting to shares or taking their cash back out upon maturity... everyone's a winner.

 

Thanks Johah, good to hear your perspective and there's a lot of pragmatism in there, something we'll all need as fans. This is the thing that is now paramount for a lot of fans - the who and why of how we got here is receding sharply in importance and the overriding concern is how the club can move forward,personalities of the major shareholders aside.

[alpine_saint]

Thanks Johah, good to hear your perspective and there's a lot of pragmatism in there, something we'll all need as fans. This is the thing that is now paramount for a lot of fans - the who and why of how we got here is receding sharply in importance and the overriding concern is how the club can move forward,personalities of the major shareholders aside.

 

That is bolllocks.

 

And you call his post "pragmatic" ?

 

I call it hypocritical.......

[jonah]

Barclays and Norwich Union (who fyi are now called Aviva by the way Jonah) are not the only large institutions that are likely to be unpaid creditors if the company folds. Many companies are forced into Admninistation by HMRC for unpaid VAT and/or PAYE payments.

 

Yes I know that, but we are hardly going to be defaulting on HMRC payments if we are paying the stadium loan - that would obviously be fatal, I was talking about the far less clear-cut case where the loan issuer calls in the loan, either through missed payments or just to recoup the cash.

 

Lowe and Wilde haven't exactly excelled at brining in new money have they? Why should it happen now in the depths of a credit crunch? (I can see that Lowe might 'find' investment after Administration so that he can buy the whole club for a song).

 

I think you're thinking too much, I had nothing more in mind than an alternative overdraft facility. Although to be fair, Lowe helped bring in £6.2m from Secure, £3.1m from the open offer, sorted the £17m stadium financing, and re-financed to £25m to free up £8m cash and reduced our annual loan payments. Wilde, errrr, made £6.50 with his "Let's Go Wilde!" tshirts.

 

So according to you we're losing money month by month and still paying off the overdraft . That would be a pretty amazing trick if it could be done.

 

I really can't imagine why UP doubts your business acumen jonah. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

You sound like you were (are) probably in one of UP's classes so that doesn't surprise me, it's probably some sort of schoolteacher crush. FYI the stadium loan payments are made annually, not monthly, so yes it is entirely possible to currently be making a loss yet able to pay off parts of the overdraft - understand? Besides which, I don't recall saying we were currently losing money month by month anywhere - but you just make it up if you feel better for it! :-)

 

Wow, this is absolutely hillarious.

 

And how much have Lowe and Wilde put in ?

 

Hi alpine, made it to a game yet this season? The answer to your question is that Lowe has personally put in about £130k in the open offer. Wilde has put in zero. I wasn't suggesting Lowe/Wilde are generous benefactors at all, why does this matter to Crouch if he has the cash to help? Does he want to help the club or score points against Lowe and Wilde?

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Paranoia or merely confirmation what many of us were saying at the start of last year. Smart investors or circling vultures are not going to want to invest in a company that they know they can purchase for a £1 post administration.

 

Barclays purchase of Lehman Brothers in the US is on another scale but illustrates the point perfectly. Called in to rescue the bank at the last hour Barclays waited until after the inevitable and simply walked back in cherry picked the bits of the company they wanted for an absolute bargain price. Why would shrewd investors in the football world act any differently? Of course there will be investors post administration and Rupert Lowe won't have to go looking for them they'll be knocking down his door.

 

Perhaps we could concentrate on the fact that Lowe for all his shortcomings he is actually trying to act in best interest of shareholders and supporters alike and protect our interests and those of the club. This can only be done if anti-lowe protesters stop their ignorant refusal to accept the previous two seasons have really put us into meltdown and not Lowe's actions from his previous reign. If you believe Lowe set the snowball in motion why didn't those who took over stop it from rolling? Because they would have had to implement plans that would not be deemed fan friendly and therefore revert back to the fiscal prudence of Lowe's regime. Do we battle for our survival or wave the white flag and rollover and accept our fate? Or shall we ***** over Lowe like a bunch of paraniod teenage girls?

 

Seriously most of you are turning this forum into a parody of a football fans forum. You are making the club looked ridiculous and it's no wonder we are classed of being one of the top 5 clubs with the most fickle and moany fanbase. I suspect Charlton fans come on here just to cheer themselves up, so perhaps its time we stop the pantomine guessing and simply concentrate on the reality and importance of support.

 

If we go into Administration then any investors will not be knocking on Lowe's door as he then will have no control over the decision making. They

will need to make offers to the Administrators.Although I do think that RL has this end all nicely stitched up with a backer waiting in the wings.

 

RL has done more than his fair share of making this club look ridiculous.

[alpine_saint]

Hi alpine, made it to a game yet this season? The answer to your question is that Lowe has personally put in about £130k in the open offer. Wilde has put in zero. I wasn't suggesting Lowe/Wilde are generous benefactors at all, why does this matter to Crouch if he has the cash to help? Does he want to help the club or score points against Lowe and Wilde?

 

Probably both, and after the untruthful smear campaign to blame him for the clubs financial woes, I dont blame him in the slightest for trying to score a few points back.

 

Why should he put several million of his hard-earned into the club without any say on its use or any equal committment from equally large shareholders ?

[Bucks Saint]

Interesting thread and when you read the opions of some you would think that administration was a absolute certainty .

 

It isnt and it shouldnt be a route that is preferred , If the club went into admin and a administrator was appointed his ONLY loyalties would be to the the creditors . Now i dont know if the shareholders would continue to be creditors or if their debt would be written off but what is a certainty is that if 46% of the shareholding is sitting in the boardroom when the adminstrator is called they would definetly have a plan laid out whereby their investment is protected and they recieve the club back for a nominal sum.

This £1 thing is rubbish as well by the way , in the event of a pre-pack even the FL debt ie... player wage defferals , costs to the adminstrator (not cheap) , HMRC debt and any protected creditors would have to be paid.It might even mean paying some of off the avivia bond to allow a transfer

Getting the club even under a pre-pack would not be cheap and it would be very very painful.

Stanley is right in a way about a ten year plan though , Keith Harris was on talk sport this week and clearly stated that when he approaches a buyer he suggests that it IS viable to make money from investment in a football club but really you should look at it as a ten year plan not a short term investment and he agreed that championship clubs are a more viable purchase than the likes of newcastle or everton who require huge sums to purchase them.

 

Failing that the winning the euromillions buying pompey for 30 million selling all the players and fratton park and throwing the keys into the harbour works for me .

 

 

Sorry, bit late replying - others have since given a pretty good summary of how Administration works, but as someone who has worked on many Administrations / run many bust companies, I thought I should just clarify for you the shareholders position: it is largely irrelevant. Whilst shareholders do have claims against the company (SLH) for their shareholdings, these come well and truly last, after all creditors are paid in full.

 

If shareholders have put in any additional sums - over and above the costs of buying their shares - i.e. personal funds loaned to the company, such as Directors loans - then these are creditor claims that rank directly alongside all other unsecured creditors. From what I understand not too many have stumped up their own cash like this!

 

So the Shareholders influence over an Administrator is not an issue. As others have said, it is quite possible the existing management could make an offer to the Administrator though. This could well be the best, even the only, offer. Why do so many bust businesses get bought by the old management team? All sorts of reasons, like they think other events caused the demise and they know better, or they will not make the same mistakes again, but often they are the only ones who know the business well enough to "take a flyer" and try again, where others see too much risk to offer very much.

 

Hope this helps

cheers

[saint1977]

That is bolllocks.

 

And you call his post "pragmatic" ?

 

I call it hypocritical.......

 

I'm not saying that I haven't debated it at length on here or that I won't challenge blatant re-writing on history on here. I asked Jonah a question and I thought he gave a interesting and fair answer. We're all Saints fans and Rupert isn't going to be here forever so I can't see the point of locking horns with people for the sake of it, even if I don't agree with everything in Jonah's postings. Generally, I'd be more inclined to agree with those (including both of us) opposing the current board but as the future is not decided yet, there are room for different perspectives. I still don't think Lowe should have appointed JP for example and I don't have great confidence in him as a CEO but at the same time I wouldn't want the club to go into a CVA just to flush him away.

[slickmick]

Because firstly Crouch would have insisted on coming back on board and we all know that's not an option Lowe/Wilde would accept. Secondly I imagine neither Lowe nor Wilde would be keen to chuck £2m into a club on the brink of relegation to the 1st division. Thirdly, I don't imagine either Lowe or Wilde have £2m cash laying about - Lowe's cash probably went into WH Ireland, Wilde has previously funded his share purchases through his family trust and loans/divs from Merlion which is probably doing badly just now... he couldn't afford to buy all the shares from Wiseman and co, he only took an option on some of them.

 

The question surely should be, if Crouch has the cash to help the club why is he only offering it conditionally? He has bought a wad of shares which gives him the right to have a significant say at the club, but the fact remains he's never directly put a penny into the club (apart from sponsorships I believe?). There is still nothing to stop anyone doing that.

 

 

Who wouldn't. If the situation was reversed, would you suggest that Lowe should offer £2m to help stave off administration while he is left out in the cold shooting ducks.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

If the situation was reversed, would you suggest that Lowe should offer £2m to help stave off administration while he is left out in the cold shooting ducks.

 

You would like to think as men they could reach some kind of agreement, in financial terms surely Crouch would have more to lose than Lowe, I know thats relative to each of their current wealth but no one like to lose a shed load of money irrespective of how much you have.

If there was a hint the bank or any other creditor were about to issue proceedings I am sure Lowe, in the event, will strike first and appoint a liquidator/administrator as then he retains a level of control(as they will be hand picked by him)

I'm sure many could tell a story of how the MD rolled the company then the following day continued as normal minus debts with assets purchased from the/his appointed administrator for their 'market values'

[Thedelldays]

I expect us to go into administration and there to be an almighty and very public battle over who caused the problems (doing the dirty laundry in public, in other words) and as to who comes up with the dosh to buy the club outright first - either Lowe (or a group he represents) or Crouch (or a group he represents). If this happens, I expect the battle for control of the club to be VERY ugly.

 

The only other possibility I see is Mike Wilde having another panic attack and switching sides again (or at least terminating his support for Lowe).

 

 

i remember you predicted administration at the start of the season as an "end of season prediction"...and like clockwork, you got roundly slated for being a ****e fan etc...

[trousers]

Interesting thread and when you read the opions of some you would think that administration was a absolute certainty .

 

It isnt and it shouldnt be a route that is preferred , If the club went into admin and a administrator was appointed his ONLY loyalties would be to the the creditors . Now i dont know if the shareholders would continue to be creditors or if their debt would be written off but what is a certainty is that if 46% of the shareholding is sitting in the boardroom when the adminstrator is called they would definetly have a plan laid out whereby their investment is protected and they recieve the club back for a nominal sum.

This £1 thing is rubbish as well by the way , in the event of a pre-pack even the FL debt ie... player wage defferals , costs to the adminstrator (not cheap) , HMRC debt and any protected creditors would have to be paid.It might even mean paying some of off the avivia bond to allow a transfer

Getting the club even under a pre-pack would not be cheap and it would be very very painful.

Stanley is right in a way about a ten year plan though , Keith Harris was on talk sport this week and clearly stated that when he approaches a buyer he suggests that it IS viable to make money from investment in a football club but really you should look at it as a ten year plan not a short term investment and he agreed that championship clubs are a more viable purchase than the likes of newcastle or everton who require huge sums to purchase them.

 

Failing that the winning the euromillions buying pompey for 30 million selling all the players and fratton park and throwing the keys into the harbour works for me .

 

Are you still 'in Dubai waiting for Tommac?'

[saint1977]

i remember you predicted administration at the start of the season as an "end of season prediction"...and like clockwork, you got roundly slated for being a ****e fan etc...

 

Alpine shouldn't have been slated for that I agree TDD, there's far too much of that on here. You'd think some of our fans supported different clubs at times. Granted, some people come on here to wind up others and some of the personal stuff is well out of order but the fact we are all Saints fans does seem to get forgotten.

[alpine_saint]

i remember you predicted administration at the start of the season as an "end of season prediction"...and like clockwork, you got roundly slated for being a ****e fan etc...

 

Yep. I also came within 10mins of being correct about last season too. Not bad over 4140 minutes of play...

 

Funny how such a shiit fan can be such an accurate observer...

[trousers]

Even if this costs the club's existance ?

 

 

One man gone or the whole club gone ?

 

The name of a Football Club can rise out of the demise of it's holding company. Can't it?

[alpine_saint]

The name of a Football Club can rise out of the demise of it's holding company. Can't it?

 

Personally, I will support whichever Football Club claims to represent the people of Southampton, my home town (though I would prefer the word "Southampton" in the name).

 

So if this one goes under, I will follow the fortunes (sadly from afar) from whichever entity takes its place. I would, of course, prefer for this one, with nearly 125 years of history, to keep going..

[trousers]

I imagine neither Lowe nor Wilde would be keen to chuck £2m into a club on the brink of relegation to the 1st division.

 

So they don't have faith and/or conviction in this season's strategy then?

[alpine_saint]

So they don't have faith and/or conviction in this season's strategy then?

 

Game, set, match..........

[trousers]

Barclays and Norwich Union (who fyi are now called Aviva by the way Jonah)

 

Almost....They are still trading/advertising under the Norwich Union name/brand. Not 100% when the final cutoof is mind you....

[trousers]

It's not - But it's more of a certainty that the club will cease to exist if we go into administration.

 

What is your definition of "the club"? There will always be a club with 'Southampton' in the name, and with links back to the 'current' incarnation, whether the PLC goes out of business or not.

[Channon's Sideburns]

So they don't have faith and/or conviction in this season's strategy then?

 

Hmmm let's play a guessing game...

 

Jonah = Numerically Astute, Seems to know a lot about Lowe and his intentions.....

 

On a Cluedo assumption, I believe Jonah is Dave Jones sat in Rupert's Office with a PC.

 

[trousers]

Hmmm let's play a guessing game...

 

Jonah = Numerically Astute, Seems to know a lot about Lowe and his intentions.....

 

On a Cluedo assumption, I believe Jonah is Dave Jones sat in Rupert's Office with a PC.

 

 

Beware....conspiracy theories will get you nowhere....speaking from experience

[trousers]

Sorry, bit late replying - others have since given a pretty good summary of how Administration works, but as someone who has worked on many Administrations / run many bust companies, I thought I should just clarify for you the shareholders position: it is largely irrelevant. Whilst shareholders do have claims against the company (SLH) for their shareholdings, these come well and truly last, after all creditors are paid in full.

 

If shareholders have put in any additional sums - over and above the costs of buying their shares - i.e. personal funds loaned to the company, such as Directors loans - then these are creditor claims that rank directly alongside all other unsecured creditors. From what I understand not too many have stumped up their own cash like this!

 

So the Shareholders influence over an Administrator is not an issue. As others have said, it is quite possible the existing management could make an offer to the Administrator though. This could well be the best, even the only, offer. Why do so many bust businesses get bought by the old management team? All sorts of reasons, like they think other events caused the demise and they know better, or they will not make the same mistakes again, but often they are the only ones who know the business well enough to "take a flyer" and try again, where others see too much risk to offer very much.

 

Hope this helps

cheers

 

Thanks for that - makes things a lot clearer - cheers

[The Rover]

Yes I know that, but we are hardly going to be defaulting on HMRC payments if we are paying the stadium loan - that would obviously be fatal, I was talking about the far less clear-cut case where the loan issuer calls in the loan, either through missed payments or just to recoup the cash.

As you said elsewhere, the stadium loan is paid in yearly instalments (around about June I think.) How does this mean we can't have been running up debts on Tax, NI and VAT over the winter, especially as they are paid to HMRC in arrears?

 

You sound like you were (are) probably in one of UP's classes so that doesn't surprise me, it's probably some sort of schoolteacher crush. FYI the stadium loan payments are made annually, not monthly, so yes it is entirely possible to currently be making a loss yet able to pay off parts of the overdraft - understand? Besides which, I don't recall saying we were currently losing money month by month anywhere - but you just make it up if you feel better for it! :-)

 

I didn't mean to infer that YOU had said we were losing money month by month.

 

My guess is that we do have a monthly negative cashflow though, as we did in the last financial year.

 

If you are suggesting we use any spare (?) incoming cash to make structured overdraft repayments instead of making provision for paying the next stadium loan installment, we would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. We will be well and truly in the mire when the Aviva payment becomes due (if we survive that long.)

 

I believe that we traditionally rely on advance Season Ticket purchases to meet the loan tranches. As probably only you and GM are renewing next year they won't help David Jones much.

 

 

Just to jump in here, before I get back to real work, the assumption that if you lose money month by month, you aren't in a position to reduce an overdraft, is total ******. It totally ignores capital losses and depreciation that, amongst other things, may contribute towards those losses.

 

The only thing that Dave Jones and Rupert should be worrying about is the amount of cash being generated by the business, which can be used to reduce the overdraft.

 

One final question to ask UP is why he earns (IMHO) a shedload less than Jonah, if he is a financial genius. Maybe he's taken an oath of poverty....

 

Reminds me of the old saying: "Those that can, do, those that can't, teach..."

 

OK GM you have me bang to rights. I was oversimplifying rather than writing a treatise on company accounting.

 

Yes of course the overdraft is all about cashflow. However I strongly suspect the cashflow is negative at the moment. Even if it is positive it would be foolhardy to agree to a steady reduction in overdraft facility when provision should be being made for the next annual stadium repayment.

 

On your last point, if you are right, isn't it scandalous that highly qualified professional teachers are paid less than service engineers.

[Wade Garrett]

Come the interims I expect us to have taken a huge step towards reverting to 50-60% wages/turnover, although we may have to dip even lower in order to repay the debt if we don't sell off KD, Surman or Lallana. I'm sure the usual elements of the fanbase will shriek in horror and say Bad Things about RL, but back on planet earth the rest of the fanbase will no doubt see it as a step to recovery.

 

 

A more palatable way to revert to 50-60% wages/turnover would be to add a good few thousand on the gate. Do that at a stroke by getting rid of Lowe, Wilde and JP.

 

Increase revenue, rather than decrease wages.

 

Personally, I would rather lose those three than KD, Surman and Lallana.

 

Lowe has the best interests of the club at heart, my arse.

[1965onwards]

The assumption that Lowe or Wilde would WANT to buy us out of administration is probably false.

 

I suspect that many fans who ARE attending SMS at the moment are willing to do so while they see Lowe trying to steady the ship financially,but in the expectation that they will be removed again at some point not too far in the future.

 

Should Lowe and/or Wilde obtain complete control post-administration ( in League 1 for sure),then i am sure that many tolerating them at the moment will turn their backs on the club as thousands of others have already done.

 

I do not believe that Lowe and Wilde have any illusions about this scenario.I also do not believe that Lowe/Wilde see any future or profit in running a League 1 club with a huge mortgage around its neck and crowds below 10,000.

 

They are here to avoid administration and stay in this league,or they will walk away and accept defeat and the loss of their investment.